On my Welsh narrow gauge model I din't need to concern myself about turning
locomotives at the end of the line as these small tank engines would run
round the passenger coaches (cars) and run bunker first.
For my passenger services on my US narrow gauge layout I've acquired a
Bachmann Mogul. There are a few possibilities and I would value opinions.
The loco could could run tender first. Was this common or even allowed?
I could have the loco go off to a non scenic part of the layout and turn it
simulating a Wye. Did the whole train turn on a Wye or were the cars left
and just the loco turned?
I could add a turntable to the layout. I'd quite like this solution as it
would be interesting to model.
Thank you
Tony
(Essex, UK)

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Erik Olsen DK - 22 Aug 2007 20:03 GMT
> For my passenger services on my US narrow gauge layout I've acquired a
> Bachmann Mogul. There are a few possibilities and I would value
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I could add a turntable to the layout. I'd quite like this solution
> as it would be interesting to model.
Many tender steam engines would not be able or allowed to run as fast
tender first as the ride was rougher, so normally they were only run
tender first for shorter distances.
To my knowledge secondary and logging lines were generally very
concerned about cost. Turntables were more expensive to construct and
maintain than a turning wye. Sometimes a turning wye formed the
run-around track, too. It couldn't be done more simple and cheaper than
that, just three turnouts and some track.

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Venlig hilsen
Erik Olsen
http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/
gl4316@yahoo.com - 23 Aug 2007 09:13 GMT
> Many tender steam engines would not be able or allowed to run as fast
> tender first as the ride was rougher, so normally they were only run
> tender first for shorter distances.
Better chance of derailing as well, since the lead truck is designed to
guide the locomotive into curves and the trailing truck is not.
> To my knowledge secondary and logging lines were generally very
> concerned about cost. Turntables were more expensive to construct and
> maintain than a turning wye.
Even secondary lines had turntables for turning the locomotives at
locations where they would be most frequently needed, such as the end of
helper districts and similar out of the way locations.
Due to the cost, logging lines tended to not have any turning tracks
because their locomotives tended to be geared engines that could operate
just as well going forward as in reverse. This is almost always not the
case for rod locomotives. Some of the lines used baloon tracks to turn
entire trains, but that was generally at the end of the line at the mill,
where they would dump one car and then pull forward, etc.
It is true a few of the logging lines operated larger rod locomotives,
they were still faced with the increased chance of derailment if the
trailing truck was not designed to lead the locomotive into curves. Some
of the 2-8-2T locomotives and similar were designed to operate in both
directions, but I'm not sure they didn't suffer from an increased chance
of derailment. Since speeds were slow and derailments common on the
logging lines, I'm not sure that they cared too much.
> Sometimes a turning wye formed the
> run-around track, too. It couldn't be done more simple and cheaper than
> that, just three turnouts and some track.
It is also much easier to create a control system for a wye than just
about anything else.
For DC: Take the middle leg of the wye and put a double pole double throw
switch on it, and insulate it from the rest of the railroad. Wire it to
provide reverse polarity in one position and forward polarity in the
other. Rather than reverse the locomotive at the controller, reverse it
at the wye switch.
For DCC. this becomes even more simple.

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Mark Newton - 23 Aug 2007 13:11 GMT
>> Many tender steam engines would not be able or allowed to run as
>> fast tender first as the ride was rougher, so normally they were
>> only run tender first for shorter distances.
> Better chance of derailing as well, since the lead truck is designed
> to guide the locomotive into curves and the trailing truck is not.
A trailing truck is designed to provide constant resistance in a curve,
just like a leading truck. They work in exactly the same way in *either*
direction.
You and the OP are making assumptions that are not borne out by
experience - I've done many miles at track speed on steam locos running
tender first, and never yet suffered a derailment.
In my experience, speed restrictions on locos running tender first are
due to signal sighting issues, since the driver is now on the wrong side
for the normal running direction, and the visibility round the tender is
very poor.
> It is true a few of the logging lines operated larger rod
> locomotives, they were still faced with the increased chance of
> derailment if the trailing truck was not designed to lead the
> locomotive into curves. Some of the 2-8-2T locomotives and similar
> were designed to operate in both directions, but I'm not sure they
> didn't suffer from an increased chance of derailment.
I have no doubt that they suffered no increased chance of derailment,
bearing in mind the comments above, and that the typical US logging
2-8-2 had almost identical trucks front and rear.
Cheers,
Mark.
Cheers,
Mark.
Tony - 23 Aug 2007 19:03 GMT
This has reminded me that the second kit loco I ever built ( a long time
ago) was a Somerset and Dorset 2-8-0. Mine always derailed going forwards!
This was almost certainly due to my poor construction. The prototype was too
big for any of the turntables available to it so it was supplied with a
tender cab for reverse running.
Best wishes
Tony
> You and the OP are making assumptions that are not borne out by
> experience - I've done many miles at track speed on steam locos running
> tender first, and never yet suffered a derailment.
> > Cheers,
>
> Mark.
Christopher A.Lee - 22 Aug 2007 20:31 GMT
>On my Welsh narrow gauge model I din't need to concern myself about turning
>locomotives at the end of the line as these small tank engines would run
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>The loco could could run tender first. Was this common or even allowed?
Put a pilot (cowcatcher) on the tender.
The pretty little 4-4-0s of the California and Nevada Railroad had
them. This was a 3ft gauge, optimistically intended to link the
Pacific with the Colorado narrow gauge but only went a few miles
inland from San Francisco Bay before running out of money.
They had surveyed a route through the Sierras using the Sonora Pass
and the Union Pacific eventually acquired the line for this. Although
they only used part of the right of way in the Bay Area.
These days you see regular tender-first running on tourist lines.
>I could have the loco go off to a non scenic part of the layout and turn it
>simulating a Wye. Did the whole train turn on a Wye or were the cars left
>and just the loco turned?
The turntable would usually be at the roundhouse, at one end of the
line.
They'd often turn the whole train on a wye. Think observation car at
the back - this would be originally be a regular looking car with a
rear platform.
But I gave an example above, of one where the engine just ran round
the train.
>I could add a turntable to the layout. I'd quite like this solution as it
>would be interesting to model.
It would be most likely at the roundhouse.
> Thank you
>Tony
>(Essex, UK)
Mark Newton - 23 Aug 2007 00:59 GMT
> On my Welsh narrow gauge model I din't need to concern myself about
> turning locomotives at the end of the line as these small tank
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The loco could could run tender first. Was this common or even
> allowed?
Yes, it was both allowed and common, and not just on narrrow
gauge/minor/industrial railroads or branchlines. On a narrow gauge line
it would be perfectly acceptable practice.
> I could have the loco go off to a non scenic part of the layout and
> turn it simulating a Wye. Did the whole train turn on a Wye or were
> the cars left and just the loco turned?
Entirely dependent on the circumstances, but turning the entire train on
a wye was quite common in the US. Not just to keep the observation car
pointed the right way, but to keep the head-end cars oriented correctly.
Len - 23 Aug 2007 01:06 GMT
> On my Welsh narrow gauge model I din't need to concern myself about turning
> locomotives at the end of the line as these small tank engines would run
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Tony
> (Essex, UK)
NCDOT still turns the entire passenger train that runs between
Raleigh and Charlette on the wye at Raleigh, NC. I've even seen
AMTRAK do it once or twice when I was down in that area.
Len
Mountain Goat - 24 Aug 2007 06:29 GMT
>> On my Welsh narrow gauge model I din't need to concern myself
>about turning
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>Raleigh and Charlette on the wye at Raleigh, NC. I've even seen
>AMTRAK do it once or twice when I was down in that area.
CN and C of NJ, had 4-6-4T engines designed for bi-directional running
in commuter service. This was uncommon though for large class 1
railroads. However short lines and branch lines all over North
America had places where turning facilities did not exist. Speeds were
usually slow so running in reverse with the tender leading was not a
huge concern. An engine without a trailing truck, like your mogul
would certainly be restricted in speed running this way, but as long
as the proper flags or class lights were displayed on the tender when
leading it was not that unusual.
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/steamtown/shs3a.htm
http://cgi.ebay.com/CENTRAL-RAILROAD-OF-NEW-JERSEY-CNJ-4-6-4T-STEAM-LOCO_W0QQite
mZ190143193458QQcmdZViewItem
Wayne L - 23 Aug 2007 02:18 GMT
> On my Welsh narrow gauge model I din't need to concern myself about
> turning locomotives at the end of the line as these small tank engines
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Tony
> (Essex, UK)
The Strasburg tourist railroad in Strasburg Pennsylvania has a nice large
decapod, which leave the station in normal fashion pulling about 6 old heavy
passenger cars. It runs about 5 miles, pulling in parallel to the
Philadelphia / Pittsburg / Chicago main line, where it does a run around,
running backwards, tender first, back to the station. They have no
turntable either, and no cowcatcher on the tender. But they go pretty slow.
http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/
Wayne
P. Roehling - 24 Aug 2007 19:34 GMT
> For my passenger services on my US narrow gauge layout I've acquired a
> Bachmann Mogul. There are a few possibilities and I would value opinions.
>
> The loco could could run tender first. Was this common or even allowed?
Yup. While growing up, I lived in a town that was at the end of two
(Southern Pacific and Santa Fe) ten-mile-long branch lines, nether of which
featured turntables or wyes. The locos would simply run around the cars and
return to their points of origin running tender in front.
Since there was never more than one train on a branch at one time, there was
no chance of meeting another train, and I don't recall there ever being any
problems that resulted from the locos running backwards.
Pete
Dan Merkel - 27 Aug 2007 21:13 GMT
>> For my passenger services on my US narrow gauge layout I've acquired a
>> Bachmann Mogul. There are a few possibilities and I would value opinions.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Pete
I may have shared this story with the group previously, but I used to visit
with Dr. Boyd Travis in Bluffton, Ohio. He was quite the train enthusiast
and had a very nice layout in his basement. He used to tell the story of
the 2-6-6-6 Alleghenies that were built in Lima, about fifteen miles
southwest of Bluffton. It seems that the tracks of the erecting sheds in
Lima faced south. The Alleghenies were too long to take a ride on the Lima
Locomotive Works turntable, so they were run out onto the NKP line, then run
backwards through Bluffton, Findlay and up to Fostoria where they were
turned on the wye if necessary, then sent on their way.
He was also the local surgeon and a bit of a practical joker. The small
hospital in Bluffton was located close to the railroad tracks. If he
happened to have a new nurse in surgery with him and would hear an engine
coming (he could tell from the whistle), he would look at the nurse and say
something like, "You're going to have to finish up here. There's a new train
coming that I want to see!"
dlm