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Model Forum / General / Railroads / December 200712 volt power source?
I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? I'm asking because I'm installing tortoise machines and in checking some of my old 12v DC power sources, I see that they actually measure about 16 v DC... even though they are labled as 12 volts. It seems odd that three 12 volt sources would all measure about 16 so I'm wondering if a 12 volt power supply is actually something other than 12 volts... much like a 2x4 is really 1.5 x 3.5. My concern, of course, is that I don't want to burn out a tortoise machine using a 12 volt power supply that is really 16. Any thoughts? Carter Braxton > I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? No. 12 volts was the figure set because car batteries were nominally 12 volts. They are actually 13.8 volts in their fully charged state. 12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA and MOROP. MOROP further defines that model locomotives should run at scale maximum speed x 1.3 at 12 volts DC. > I'm asking because I'm > installing tortoise machines and in checking some of my old 12v DC power > sources, I see that they actually measure about 16 v DC... even though they > are labled as 12 volts. Transformer voltage output will vary with load. One would expect a non-stablized trafo labelled 12 volts to show perhaps 16 volts at no-load and 10 volts at 1.5-2 times maximum rated load. > It seems odd that three 12 volt sources would all measure about 16 so I'm > wondering if a 12 volt power supply is actually something other than 12 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Any thoughts? Your tortoise machine should be ok on 16 volts, but 12 volts would be preferable. The 16 volt AC accessory output commonly found on MR controllers came about because the old selenium plate rectifiers dropped the common transformer winding from 16 v AC to 12 v DC. (give or take a couple of volts either way and allowance for load variations, wind direction, humidity, temperature and monday morning hand windings) Greg.P. NZ >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? > >No. >12 volts was the figure set because car batteries were nominally 12 >volts. They are actually 13.8 volts in their fully charged state. Nonsense. >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >non-stablized trafo labelled 12 volts to show perhaps 16 volts at >no-load and 10 volts at 1.5-2 times maximum rated load. This is more correct. The load is the issue, not the 13.8 charge voltage. Unloaded power supplies will in fact go to the rail, the term used for the upper limit of the regulator. Loaded power supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. -- Ray > >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nonsense. Care to expand on that point? A standard automotive lead-acid battery in normally charged state is 13.8 volts. > >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA > >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > voltage. Unloaded power supplies will in fact go to the rail, the > term used for the upper limit of the regulator. We're discussing unregulated power supplies at this point. > Loaded power > supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. 'Regulated' power supplies ... You average power supply, those owned by (say) 90% of modellers using analogue control, does not include an electronic regulator. Regards, Greg.P. > Care to expand on that point? > A standard automotive lead-acid battery in normally charged state is > 13.8 volts. Nope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery After full charge the terminal voltage will drop quickly to 13.2 V and then slowly to 12.6 V. Klaus  SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe >> >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >A standard automotive lead-acid battery in normally charged state is >13.8 volts. Yes but he's not talking about a charger here or a battery. He was asking about a 12 volts. Don't confuse the issue. >> >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >> >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >We're discussing unregulated power supplies at this point. No, you are. Everyone else is probably on the same page. >> Loaded power >> supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. > >'Regulated' power supplies ... >You average power supply, those owned by (say) 90% of modellers using >analogue control, does not include an electronic regulator. 12 volts is 12 volts. Under no load conditions, unregulated or regulated power supplies will read higher. -- Ray > >> >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >> >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Yes but he's not talking about a charger here or a battery. He was > asking about a 12 volts. Don't confuse the issue. I mentioned that because initially "12 volts" trains were commonly run from 12 volt car batteries - ie nominally 12 volts but actually slightly higher. That is the precedent which set the expectation for HO models. > >> >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA > >> >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > No, you are. Everyone else is probably on the same page. You're always on a different page. > >> Loaded power > >> supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Ray >> >> >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> >> >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >from 12 volt car batteries - ie nominally 12 volts but actually slightly >higher. That is the precedent which set the expectation for HO models. Fair enough, Greg, but the charge circuits are 13.8 volts while the battery remains very near to 12 volts. Seriously. -- Ray On 12/20/2007 11:23 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>I mentioned that because initially "12 volts" trains were commonly run >>from 12 volt car batteries - ie nominally 12 volts but actually slightly >>higher. That is the precedent which set the expectation for HO models. > > Fair enough, Greg, but the charge circuits are 13.8 volts while the > battery remains very near to 12 volts. Seriously. Data point: I measured my car's battery voltage (in good shape & fully charged). 12.5 volts (both my multimeters agree). >>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nonsense. RAY; If you want to 'Nit Pick', please do it on something that matters. The 13.8 volts is accurate TO the degree of accuracy usually encountered when talking in 'Model Railroad Circles'. You want Super Lab. accuracy?, that can be done, with the effect of losing the essence of the original question. >>12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >>and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > This is more correct. The load is the issue, not the 13.8 charge > voltage. That was mentioned as a matter of historical reference, nothing more. > Unloaded power supplies will in fact go to the rail, the > term used for the upper limit of the regulator. Since we are NOT talking about 'Laboratory Regulated Power Supplies here, there is no connection to the original question, or the 'nit picked' answer. > Loaded power supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. Lab Supplies, yes. Model Railroad Power Supplies, are a horse of a different color. Chuck D. > -- > Ray > >>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Lab Supplies, yes. Model Railroad Power Supplies, are a horse of a > different color. I'll take a bet that the Bachmann 1/4 amp tin box/plastic box set controller is _the_ most common 12 v DC controller out there. Regards, Greg.P. >>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >that can be done, with the effect of losing the essence of the original >question. I'm not nit picking, mate. The 12 volt battery consists of 6 cells each of which outpout 2 volts making the total 12 volts. The charger for that battery must be higher by 10% in order to charge the cells. A power supply, which is what the fellow is asking about, is NOT 13.8 volts even in Model Railroad Circles. A CHARGER is but not a POWER SUPPLY. Get it? >>>12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >>>and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >here, there is no connection to the original question, or the 'nit >picked' answer. Regulated or unregulated, a 12 volt supply always puts out a higher voltage until it has a load on it. Believe it. >> Loaded power supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. > >Lab Supplies, yes. Model Railroad Power Supplies, are a horse of a >different color. They still put out 12 volts, not 13.8 volts. -- Ray > Regulated or unregulated, a 12 volt supply always puts out a higher > voltage until it has a load on it. Believe it. Say what ? Whay do you then needs a regulator for. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe >> Regulated or unregulated, a 12 volt supply always puts out a higher >> voltage until it has a load on it. Believe it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Klaus To maintain the 12V under load. > To maintain the 12V under load. And without. If you consider my Fluke 87 (voltage meter) as a load then noone knows if the 12 volt is more than 12 volts without load, because you can't measure it unless you connect a load. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:16:23 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> To maintain the 12V under load. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >if the 12 volt is more than 12 volts without load, because you can't >measure it unless you connect a load. In some regulator circuits, a meter is enough of a load. In others, a meter just doesn't quite do the job. Look, Klaus, the real point I was making is that there is a significant difference between a 13.8 volt battery charger and a 12 volt power supply. Those wall cubes most people think are 12 volt supplies are sometimes chargers for internal batteries on some device or other. Using a multimeter will usually, but not always, separate the types for you. A load is part of the power supply circuit and when present your voltmeter will be more accurate than when not present. -- Ray > In some regulator circuits, a meter is enough of a load. But how do you then know the voltage unloaded ? > In others, a meter just doesn't quite do the job. Very bad design. > Look, Klaus, the real point I > was making is that there is a significant difference between a 13.8 > volt battery charger and a 12 volt power supply. I totally agree on that Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:41:16 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> In some regulator circuits, a meter is enough of a load. > >But how do you then know the voltage unloaded ? You really don't until you apply an external load. >> In others, a meter just doesn't quite do the job. > >Very bad design. Clearly. The wall cube transformer/power supplies are often designed to be used with a specific item which does apply a load. Saves money. We all like those $10.00 answering machines but those wall cubes must be shaved down in cost to allow that kind of price. You get the idea. >> Look, Klaus, the real point I >> was making is that there is a significant difference between a 13.8 >> volt battery charger and a 12 volt power supply. > >I totally agree on that Lucky for me. You're good. Too good. -- Ray > You really don't until you apply an external load. So how can you claim that the voltage is higher unloaded ? My scope with the probe in x10 position loads the powersupply with 100MOhm - would you call that a load ? > Lucky for me. You're good. Too good. 20 years in electronics repair/design/manufacture/support is the load on my back....... Despite I'm not in the business right now, my latest repair was yesterday in my garage. A guy from one of the local garages mailed me and asked if i knew who in our town could repair on SMD level - my answer was Me or the local Vestas factory, so they came to me. Resolder of SMD chips on a dashboard controller for a Renault is now in my experiance list :-) They called me today - it was a great success.......... Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:38:47 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> You really don't until you apply an external load. > >So how can you claim that the voltage is higher unloaded ? Multimeters don't apply much of a load by design. My claim was based on a statement that the voltage on a 12 volt supply read more than 12 volts. Made by another poster, not me. I know for a fact, and based on your experiences stated below, that this is common with some poorly designed or special purpose power supplies. They rely on the load to have full regulation. It saves the manufacturer money. >My scope with the probe in x10 position loads the powersupply with >100MOhm - would you call that a load ? Not at all. Anything above 10MOhm is not considered a load. >> Lucky for me. You're good. Too good. > >20 years in electronics repair/design/manufacture/support is the load on >my back....... I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). >Despite I'm not in the business right now, my latest repair was >yesterday in my garage. A guy from one of the local garages mailed me >and asked if i knew who in our town could repair on SMD level - my >answer was Me or the local Vestas factory, so they came to me. Resolder >of SMD chips on a dashboard controller for a Renault is now in my >experiance list :-) I only do design work for myself now. I teach a bit at the local tertiary schools here in Perth whenever I'm asked. I am a former third party rep for MicroChip but gave it up when I moved to Australia from San Diego. I truly love embedded control and use any excuse at all to drop a PIC into a project. >They called me today - it was a great success... Well done. -- Ray > Multimeters don't apply much of a load by design. My claim was based > on a statement that the voltage on a 12 volt supply read more than > 12 volts. Made by another poster, not me. I know for a fact, and > based on your experiences stated below, that this is common with > some poorly designed or special purpose power supplies. They rely on > the load to have full regulation. It saves the manufacturer money. We totally agreee...... Shitty powersupplies depend on load, but regulated doesnt. > I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors > were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams > but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine > from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). Darn - Z80 was in my youth (I'm "only" 35:-) Did you ever get the ZX spectrums ? http://www.worldofspectrum.org/ AFAIR it was british build and based on the Z80A. They keyboard was rubber and was later used as "anti slip mats in showers" :-) > I only do design work for myself now. I teach a bit at the local > tertiary schools here in Perth whenever I'm asked. I am a former > third party rep for MicroChip but gave it up when I moved to > Australia from San Diego. I truly love embedded control and use any > excuse at all to drop a PIC into a project. Neat :-) > Well done. Thanks. Another of my proud job was a late night, we were pretty drunk, when my friend pulled out an DVD player with defective switchmode powersupply. It took about 10 minutes and then it was running again - typical error, toasted power diode and dead capacitors..... The next morning i had headache...... Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On 12/21/2007 2:55 PM Klaus D. Mikkelsen spake thus: >> I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors >> were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams >> but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine >> from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). > > Darn - Z80 was in my youth (I'm "only" 35:-) I still think the Z80 is one of the most underutilized and underappreciated machines ever built in the late 20th century. All that power and speed in such an unassuming package. Like those totally kewl alternate register sets and the instructions that swap them with the regular set, for high-speed interrupt processing ... >I still think the Z80 is one of the most underutilized and >underappreciated machines ever built in the late 20th century. All that Seconded. Zilog is still out there, pushing souped-up Z80s as embedded controllers. * Signature* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something like corkscrews. On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:55:37 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> Multimeters don't apply much of a load by design. My claim was based >> on a statement that the voltage on a 12 volt supply read more than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Shitty powersupplies depend on load, but regulated doesnt. Most here seem to be hunting the cheapest of the cheap and probably buy the wall wart type. More than half of those are only partially regulated relying on the equipment on the load side to finish the regulation. Awful practice, that, but it does make for cheap power supplies when you need them. >> I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors >> were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams >> but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine >> from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). > >Darn - Z80 was in my youth (I'm "only" 35:-) I nearly used an 8080A but the Z80 came available and I switched. All wire-wrapped. What a headache that was. Tedious but fun. >Did you ever get the ZX spectrums ? >http://www.worldofspectrum.org/ >AFAIR it was british build and based on the Z80A. They keyboard was >rubber and was later used as "anti slip mats in showers" :-) I had a Sinclair ZX80, the membrane keyboard type. Designed a 64k memory expansion for it and published the design in the old Popular Electronics magazine sometime in the '80s. I forgot which name I published under for that one. I use pen names mostly to avoid flame wars here on USENET over something I publish. >> I only do design work for myself now. I teach a bit at the local >> tertiary schools here in Perth whenever I'm asked. I am a former [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >typical error, toasted power diode and dead capacitors..... >The next morning i had headache...... I picked up a dead, second-hand, rack mounted P4 Quad Core PC used for 6 months as a server before it failed. It was failing big time according to the seller and I verified that. But, his company had replaced it with a bigger and better server with 4 terabytes of hard drive. This one had 4 320GByte ATA/IDE drives, 2 500GByte SCSI drives, 2 SCSI controllers and a 4 port RAID controller. On inspection, I found a lightning damaged burned trace at the DMA controller chip and fixed the unit. It's a screamer with more hard drive space than I can use in a lifetime. It cost me a whopping $10.00 yesterday. I wiped all the drives clean as promised. Now, what shall I do with it? I think I'll sleep on it. It has sharp pointy corners but with a thick enough blanket I can at least have a nap on it. Oh, rats. I meant to send this by e-mail but it's too much bother to retype it or cut and paste it. So, it goes on the newsgroup with a copy by e-mail. Sorry it's so horribly off topic, guys. Well, I can make it on topic easy enough. I believe I'll use that new PC to automate my trains. There. On topic now. -- Ray [snip prior chit chat] > I picked up a dead, second-hand, rack mounted P4 Quad Core PC used > for 6 months as a server before it failed. It was failing big time [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Ray LOL PS: I "built" me a new PC with an MSI board (1000MHz FSB) and a 2.4GHz Intel Dual Core, 2GB 800MHz DDR, two 250GB SATA, 256MB PCI-X video card, and a floppy drive. Still feel uneasy without a floppy drive. Had to put it in a tall tower, else the CPU fan wouldn't fit under the PSU. Just plugged all the bits and pieces together, turned it on, installed a brand new copy of XP Pro/SP2, copied a pile of zips and install packages from a CD, and starting playing with it. Erm, I meant _working_ with it. ;-) Fastest machine Ive ever used. On 12/21/2007 3:37 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:55:37 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > regulation. Awful practice, that, but it does make for cheap power > supplies when you need them. I've taken apart lots of wall warts (to cannibalize the parts within) and don't remember ever seeing any with a regulator. Just a transformer, a bridge rectifier (or two diodes) and filter capacitor(s). >On 12/21/2007 3:37 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >and don't remember ever seeing any with a regulator. Just a transformer, >a bridge rectifier (or two diodes) and filter capacitor(s). Your point? -- Ray On 12/21/2007 4:15 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 3:37 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Your point? They're *all* unregulated, contrary to your observation about how "more than half of those are only partly regulated". No regulation at all. >On 12/21/2007 4:15 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >They're *all* unregulated, contrary to your observation about how "more >than half of those are only partly regulated". No regulation at all. Then you're wrong. They are mostly regulated. If they aren't, you aren't opening the right ones. -- Ray On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 4:15 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Then you're wrong. They are mostly regulated. If they aren't, you > aren't opening the right ones. And how do you know that? Have you cracked any open yourself? I mean, I've opened literally *dozens* of the little buggers, and never saw a single regulator--78xx or anything similar--in any of them. >On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >I mean, I've opened literally *dozens* of the little buggers, and never >saw a single regulator--78xx or anything similar--in any of them. And you think that's the only kind of regulator out there? Oh, dear. -- Ray On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > And you think that's the only kind of regulator out there? Oh, dear. No, they can also be made of discrete (i.e., non-IC) components (like transistors). But there has to be *something* there besides a transformer, rectifier and filter capacitors. So what kind of regulators do you think is in those wall warts, eh, Ray? >On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >transformer, rectifier and filter capacitors. So what kind of regulators >do you think is in those wall warts, eh, Ray? Even a zener diode is a regulator. Play puffery all you want, David. I do know what I am discussing here while you are just guessing after opening a few wall cubes. Enjoy the game. -- Ray >> On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > -- > Ray Ray you are wrong. Very few wallwarts in the US have any kind of regulation. >>> On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > >Ray you are wrong. Very few wallwarts in the US have any kind of regulation. So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? -- Ray > So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator > is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. But no regulator. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... > > So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator > > is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? > > Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. > > But no regulator. Sounds like you're describing the average wall-wart! I've yet to find a decent sized capacitor intended for smoothing in the few wws I've dismantled but I have found small value capacitors which I assume were there for suppressing radio interference. That might of course just be that I haven't dismantled enough wws. Regards, Greg.P. On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:24:54 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator >> is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? > >Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. > >But no regulator. By definition, those are parts of a regulator and what you describe is a rudimentary one. What these yokels are describing is an IC regulator. The wall cubes often contain far less than an IC. -- Ray On 12/22/2007 1:59 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:24:54 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is a rudimentary one. What these yokels are describing is an IC > regulator. The wall cubes often contain far less than an IC. You're just plain wrong. An xfmr, rectifier (and optionally a capacitor) make up an UNREGULATED power supply. Any 15-year-old kid who's studied electronics knows that. You're just being annoying. And of course, you'll never admit you're wrong. >> Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is a rudimentary one. What these yokels are describing is an IC > regulator. The wall cubes often contain far less than an IC. What you are describing is known as a *filtered* power supply, not a *regulated* power supply. A regulated power supply requires the use of some active components such as transistors or ICs. Power supplies using only passive components such as transformers, resistors, capacitors and diodes (including Zener diodes) do not constitute regulated power supplies. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Transvestasaurus Rex - a cross-dressing dinosaur >>> Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >only passive components such as transformers, resistors, capacitors and >diodes (including Zener diodes) do not constitute regulated power supplies. Those wall warts are not ALWAYS regulated. Show me where I ever stated that ALL of them were? Just because you cut a few open and found something else doesn't make you correct in this thread. You have all diverged away into areas where you can be right and strayed away from my original statement. Very childish. But I expect no less from some of the morons here. -- Ray > By definition, those are parts of a regulator No, that's what is called an unregulated power supply. A regulated power supply contains an active omponen thet regulates the output voltage and/or current. http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/power1.html http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_9/1.html Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:01:53 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> By definition, those are parts of a regulator > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/power1.html >http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_9/1.html They're all part, Klaus. Try building a regulated power supply without those. The wall cube forms the first part or a chain. -- Ray On 12/22/2007 11:18 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:01:53 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They're all part, Klaus. Try building a regulated power supply > without those. The wall cube forms the first part or a chain. What a lame-a.s answer. But I see what you've been doing: playing with semantics, all to avoid owning up to your being totally wrong in your arguments so far. Yes, a wall wart can form PART of a REGULATED power supply, IF the regulating part of the circuit is inside the thing being powered. But BY ITSELF, the wall wart is (always, in my experience), UNREGULATED. To put it more precisely, any power supply that only contains a transformer, rectifier and filter is UNREGULATED by itself. Anyone reading my many previous posts (except, apparently, you) would have gotten that by now. And yes, we know (or at least I do) that zener diodes are used as voltage regulators. But as I said, I've never even seen a zener in the many wall warts I've dismantled, meaning that they're totally unregulated. >On 12/22/2007 11:18 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >But I see what you've been doing: playing with semantics, all to avoid >owning up to your being totally wrong in your arguments so far. Actually, I never, ever stated that ALL wall warts contained regulated power supplies. That was down to you and Greg. You claimed you opened billions of them and never found even one. Ok. Not billions but you see what you did, right? You moved my statement over to where YOU could win. Instead of sticking to the original comments I made, you moved it over and made a big stink over it. In fact, I never stated that ALL wall warts contained regulated power supplies only that they made up a composite power supply with their load. Go back and see. Loading is necessary to get them to be at the proper voltage according to what is printed on them. For you to make such a stink over your own misleading comments is very bad form, David. Very bad. >Yes, a wall wart can form PART of a REGULATED power supply, IF the >regulating part of the circuit is inside the thing being powered. But BY >ITSELF, the wall wart is (always, in my experience), UNREGULATED. To put >it more precisely, any power supply that only contains a transformer, >rectifier and filter is UNREGULATED by itself. Anyone reading my many >previous posts (except, apparently, you) would have gotten that by now. David, I spent over 40 years in electronics. Don't pretend to tell me what a regulated power supply consists of. >And yes, we know (or at least I do) that zener diodes are used as >voltage regulators. But as I said, I've never even seen a zener in the >many wall warts I've dismantled, meaning that they're totally unregulated. Thank you. I have seen them there. You can't have opened every wall wart in existence. However, let me point out that you probably opened those you believed weren't working properly. That leads me to believe you opened them because the voltage was incorrect. That also leads me to suspect that because of your mistaken beliefs, they weren't really bad at all just unregulated. I had a friend who put a 7805 circuit on a 12 volt wall wart. It promptly caught fire. Both the circuit he built and the wall wart. The reason? There was a 7512 in the wall wart. Disaster. This entire subject has been hijacked by you and Greg. All I stated was that there were no 13.8 volt batteries out there and that the wall cubes that put out that voltage were chargers, not power supplies. Now, kindly knock it off and stick to what you know. -- Ray > >On 12/22/2007 11:18 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > -- > Ray Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: <http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> Here's a laboratory power supply from Dick Smith Electronics: <http://dseau.resultspage.com/search.php?sessionid=476eb5e50123fe3a273fc0a87f9c07 18&w=Power+supply+13.8&site=&submit.x=11&submit.y=8> Sorry the links are so long but that takes you to the specific product. I've been involved with fitting ship, boat and truck radio/depth finding etc gear (AWA NZ, a division of RCA USA) All our gear was rated at 13.8 volts because that's the operating voltage found on batteries in circuit in those situations. >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >volts because that's the operating voltage found on batteries in circuit >in those situations. That's because they run from a generator or an alternator and not a 12 volt battery which is never, ever going to be at 13.8 volts. -- Ray > >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's because they run from a generator or an alternator and not a > 12 volt battery which is never, ever going to be at 13.8 volts. LOL. The battery is in circuit between the generator/alternator and the load, it's an integral part of the voltage regulation circuit. If the alternator and the load are at 13.8 volts then the battery _must_ be at ...? >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >If the alternator and the load are at 13.8 volts then the battery _must_ >be at ...? No, Greg. The entire CIRCUIT is at 13.8 volts. Not the battery. When you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like always. You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. -- Ray > >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > No, Greg. The entire CIRCUIT is at 13.8 volts. Exactly Ray - geeze, it really takes a _long_ time for you to not understand the completely obvious! > Not the battery. When > you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like > always. Why do you keep stating that which is only correct when the battery is at 12 volts? > You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. > -- > Ray >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Exactly Ray - geeze, it really takes a _long_ time for you to not >understand the completely obvious! Baloney. You've been spewing from the mountaintops that a 12 volt battery will measure 13.8 volts and that's simply wrong. Don't try to weasel out of it now. Everyone here has been trying to convince you that the CHARGING circuit is 13.8 volts and now you pretend you knew it all along. A 12 volt battery will not ever measure 13.8 volts as you stated. >> Not the battery. When >> you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like >> always. > >Why do you keep stating that which is only correct when the battery is >at 12 volts? Because a 12 volt battery will never, ever measure 13.8 volts. Ever. >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. This one bears repeating. You simply don't understand batteries, Greg. -- Ray > >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > A 12 volt battery will not ever measure 13.8 volts as you stated. That battery company I cited is going to be very disappointed! > >> Not the battery. When > >> you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Because a 12 volt battery will never, ever measure 13.8 volts. Ever. In that case the car electric connected to said battery will never measure 13.8 volts. Ever. The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is sort of wasted really. > >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. > > This one bears repeating. You simply don't understand batteries, > Greg. Fair point - care to design my current electric car design for me? >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >That battery company I cited is going to be very disappointed! They're on the same page as me, Greg. Why would you believe otherwise? >> >> Not the battery. When >> >> you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >In that case the car electric connected to said battery will never >measure 13.8 volts. Ever. Exactly. Not without external potential added. A battery circuit, including the battery, can be driven to a higher voltage but that process is known as charging. When used as a source of power, a battery will never be at 13.8 volts. It's a physics thing. >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is >sort of wasted really. That's what the float limit is all about. Gassing causes the electrolyte's hydrogen to leave the battery. It's a serious issue. If you charge at too high a voltage, the electrolyte outgasses and you get spidering between the cells which can cause cell failure. Water vapor also escapes during gassing which lowers the levels. Gel batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on them can cause swelling and cell failure from heat. >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Fair point - care to design my current electric car design for me? No thanks, mate. I'm converting one now. A Dihatsu Mira-J. I'm so pleased about how clean the car has become since the engine is gone. I've got 3 years invested in it and don't expect to finish for at least another 3. Batteries (huge power sources) are getting cheaper and different every day. Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp Look in the middle column, third one down. The best part? They're literally a few miles away from me. Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? -- Ray > >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > process is known as charging. When used as a source of power, a > battery will never be at 13.8 volts. It's a physics thing. Are you saying the battery in a normal automobile has no function other than when the engine is turned off? > >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is > >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end > this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? I've certainly had enough of it! > -- > Ray >> Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end >> this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? > >I've certainly had enough of it! It sure doesn't appear that you mean this. So, do you build your own switches? -- Ray > >> Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end > >> this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So, do you build your own switches? As in turnouts? That will have to be a yes/no answer. I have built my own in the past and have modified proprietry ones. My two current HO layouts use Peco: - shunting layout code 100 with nothing standard. - my main layout has Peco Code 75, again all modified. I started with ME code 70 track and hand-made turnouts but decided proprietry turnouts were quicker. - I'm currently tooling up to produce NZR 45mm gauge turnouts. (by alternative scale :-) >> So, do you build your own switches? > >As in turnouts? Well, yes. >That will have to be a yes/no answer. >I have built my own in the past and have modified proprietry ones. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >- I'm currently tooling up to produce NZR 45mm gauge turnouts. (by >alternative scale :-) I did sort of the same thing but in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca brass turnout to build one left and one right. Had to use stripped down flex track because finding a source of extruded rail was impossible. To be honest, the benefits of doing them by hand was only mental. I did relax during the work but there wasn't anything special about them as far as operationally. Thus, for me, the manufacturer's turnouts are easier. I'd like to find a source of extruded metal on a roll for G-Scale track. Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging to become rail ties. Begging. -- Ray > >> So, do you build your own switches? > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > special about them as far as operationally. Thus, for me, the > manufacturer's turnouts are easier. The advantage I was initially going for was more correct sleeper size and spacing than Peco makes. (era and prototype) I finally decided the difference would be minimal. > I'd like to find a source of extruded metal on a roll for G-Scale > track. Well, err, it's not exactly flexible to a managable roll size! Getting it straight again would require rollers. > Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging > to become rail ties. Begging. Right now I'm milling PVC. >> >> So, do you build your own switches? >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Well, err, it's not exactly flexible to a managable roll size! Getting >it straight again would require rollers. Big rolls. Really big rolls. >> Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging >> to become rail ties. Begging. > >Right now I'm milling PVC. That doesn't conduct very well for rail use. -- Ray > >> >> So, do you build your own switches? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Big rolls. Really big rolls. Well, if you've got really big money just get a die made and have it produced! I'd consider buying say code 215 in nickel silver. > >> Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging > >> to become rail ties. Begging. > > > >Right now I'm milling PVC. > > That doesn't conduct very well for rail use. Err no, I'm buying expensive NS rail locally. I don't need very much to produce turnouts. [...] > I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca > brass turnout to build one left and one right. Had to use stripped > down flex track because finding a source of extruded rail was > impossible. Micro Engineering makes Code 40/55/70/83/100, "weathered" (brown) and non-weathered n/s. Code 40, 55 are right for N, code 70 is OK. Peco makes code 60/75/80 n/s. Code 50 is right for N, 75 is OK, 80 matches standard sectional N track by Peco, Atlas and others. >To be honest, the benefits of doing them by hand was > only mental. I did relax during the work but there wasn't anything [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Ray Micro Engineering: code 125, 148, 205, 250 n/s, and 250, 332 in aluminum. Peco: code 250 brass Code 250 and up will work nicely for G, but code 148 and 205 would look better IMO. But most G wheels have flanges that too deep for this rail. HTH > [...] > > I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Peco: code 250 brass My Peco catalogue shows 215 and 250 in NS. > Code 250 and up will work nicely for G, but code 148 and 205 would look > better IMO. But most G wheels have flanges that too deep for this rail. > > HTH >> [...] >>> I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > My Peco catalogue shows 215 and 250 in NS. And your point is????? Surely by this time it's dawned on you that Peco doesn't sell the same products in all markets. >> Code 250 and up will work nicely for G, but code 148 and 205 would look >> better IMO. But most G wheels have flanges that too deep for this rail. >> >> HTH > >> [...] > >>> I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Surely by this time it's dawned on you that Peco doesn't sell the same > products in all markets. Peco sells it's products world-wide. If you demand product 'xyz' they will sell it to you. It's the importer who decides which of Peco's products they will stock, based on perceived demand. I've just gone through the procedure of telling the NZ importer of Peco that they should stock the G guage range. I buy my HO code 75 from Britain. Regards, Greg.P. > >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > process is known as charging. When used as a source of power, a > battery will never be at 13.8 volts. It's a physics thing. Awww Ray, if the electrical circuitry of the car is at 13.8 volts then the battery is at 13.8 volts - it's a physics thing. > >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is > >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you get spidering between the cells which can cause cell failure. > Water vapor also escapes during gassing which lowers the levels. I do hope you mean _to_ too high a level? If you charge a battery it has to rise through every voltage point from start to ... > Gel > batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on > them can cause swelling and cell failure from heat. It's best not to overcharge those either - however, they still have to be charged from their starting point through every voltage point to overcharge. > >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > least another 3. Batteries (huge power sources) are getting cheaper > and different every day. I've just put aside the idea of building a car from scratch and am looking for something like the Daihatsu Mira. There's not enough years left! > Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! > http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Ray >> >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >Awww Ray, if the electrical circuitry of the car is at 13.8 volts then >the battery is at 13.8 volts - it's a physics thing. No, it's not. When you remove the 13.8 volt source, which is NOT the battery, the battery remains at 12 volts. Period. >> >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is >> >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I do hope you mean _to_ too high a level? If you charge a battery it has >to rise through every voltage point from start to ... No, Greg. If you were to say use 20 volts to charge, that would be too high a level. There's no way to charge a 12 volt battery to any old voltage you choose. Even 13.8 volts is impossible. Thus, when the charge voltage is removed, the battery is at 12 volts. No more than that or just barely above it. Certainly that battery will never be charged to 20 volts or even 13.8 volts. You're grasping at straws now, Greg. >> Gel >> batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >be charged from their starting point through every voltage point to >overcharge. Lead-acid batteries are nearly impossible to overcharge but if you apply to high a float potential you will get gassing or outgassing. >> >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >> >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >looking for something like the Daihatsu Mira. >There's not enough years left! I decided to make it rear wheel drive with the entire front compartment reserved for batteries. I'm experimenting with the fuel cells. Two motors on the rear and all the power and most of the mass up front. Since the mass is all between the axles front to back, that will make it a very stable vehicle. Small, but stable. >> Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! >> http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end >> this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? What did you think of the fuel cells? -- Ray > >> >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > No, it's not. When you remove the 13.8 volt source, which is NOT the > battery, the battery remains at 12 volts. Period. We will just have to agree to differ on that point - all my multimeters agree with me. > >> >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is > >> >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > No, Greg. If you were to say use 20 volts to charge, that would be > too high a level. Basic Ohms law here: Input voltage (minus voltage sources in circuit) / resistance = current flow. 13.8v+ / resistance = excessive current. > There's no way to charge a 12 volt battery to any > old voltage you choose. Even 13.8 volts is impossible. That's the voltage my cite claims is possible. Even your cite said 13.2 volts+. > Thus, when > the charge voltage is removed, the battery is at 12 volts. That doesn't agree with reality. If the charge level is less than 12 volts you won't find 12 volts across the terminals. > No more > than that or just barely above it. Just barely above it?? 12.5? 13? 13.2? > Certainly that battery will never > be charged to 20 volts or even 13.8 volts. 13.8 volts is the (safe) limit. > You're grasping at straws > now, Greg. I'm still holding the same straws I started with. > >> Gel > >> batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Lead-acid batteries are nearly impossible to overcharge but if you > apply to high a float potential you will get gassing or outgassing. That has to do with resistance/current flow. > >> >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > >> >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > up front. Since the mass is all between the axles front to back, > that will make it a very stable vehicle. Small, but stable. I was designing a minimal two in-line seat 4 wheel vehicle to minimise wind and rolling resistance. Building and certifying such a vehicle could be a long process. I now have to start over with an existing vehicle and extrapolate everything I've done so far. > >> Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! > >> http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What did you think of the fuel cells? I still have to get to that, rellies here until an hour ago. However it has to be something I can obtain here, at a workable cost. >Basic Ohms law here: >Input voltage (minus voltage sources in circuit) / resistance = current >flow. >13.8v+ / resistance = excessive current. Ohms law in an active circuit? Oh, dear. -- Ray >>>>>>Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >>>>>><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Because a 12 volt battery will never, ever measure 13.8 volts. Ever. Well Ray, it seems that you haven't ever actually measured a battery voltage while it is being charged! [And for the few microseconds AFTER removal of the charging voltage.] The voltage RAPIDLY drops, but there IS a finite time where the voltage is STILL at the 13.8 volt level. Chuck D. >>>You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >>>that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > Ray >Well Ray, it seems that you haven't ever actually measured a battery >voltage while it is being charged! [And for the few microseconds AFTER >removal of the charging voltage.] The voltage RAPIDLY drops, but there >IS a finite time where the voltage is STILL at the 13.8 volt level. I've done both. The battery under charge has a floating voltage of 13.8 volts not from the battery but from the charging circuit. After the charging circuit is removed, the battery is at 12 volts. Anything else is just plain nonsense. -- Ray > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:01:53 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They're all part, Klaus. Try building a regulated power supply > without those. The wall cube forms the first part or a chain. By that reasoning my key-chain LED torch (flashlite) is a mainframe computer controlling a CIA intelligence gathering network! >>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> >>>>On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: etc., etc., etc. Have either of you ever heard of snipping (trimming) posts? >>>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Have either of you ever heard of snipping (trimming) posts? Maybe we could provide their computers with Commode Diodes, to dump all the bullshit straight to ground. (I used to have one on my car radio to filter out the shitkicker music when driving across the nation's underbelly.) SignatureSteve On 12/22/2007 10:16 AM Steve Caple spake thus: >>>>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > bullshit straight to ground. (I used to have one on my car radio to filter > out the shitkicker music when driving across the nation's underbelly.) How did that work? Some kind of comb filter? An adaptive RRF (redneck resonant filter)? (In todays Internet-radio-based terms: "Please enter a list of stations NOT to listen to".) > How did that work? Never opened it up, but it probably looked for a combination of dobro and massed strings, or perhaps in a miracle of computational compression was able to scan for words like "dog" and "dead" and "pickup", or perhaps just frequency analysis was able to detect pouty chin-bearded whiners. SignatureSteve >Have either of you ever heard of snipping (trimming) posts? I almost always do, Larry. I'll try to do better just for you. -- Ray On 12/22/2007 12:01 AM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I do know what I am discussing here while you are just guessing > after opening a few wall cubes. Enjoy the game. I know what a zener diode is and what they look like, and I haven't seen any of them in any wall warts either (and that's *dozens*, not just a few). No regulation whatsoever. You just don't know what you're talking about (no surprise there for a blowhard). >I know what a zener diode is and what they look like, and I haven't seen >any of them in any wall warts either (and that's *dozens*, not just a >few). No regulation whatsoever. > >You just don't know what you're talking about (no surprise there for a >blowhard). So your wall cube plugs in to 110 VAC and sends out 12 volts DC how? -- Ray On 12/22/2007 12:34 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>I know what a zener diode is and what they look like, and I haven't seen >>any of them in any wall warts either (and that's *dozens*, not just a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So your wall cube plugs in to 110 VAC and sends out 12 volts DC how? It has a TRANSFORMER (converts 110 VAC to, say, 10 VAC) and a RECTIFIER (plus a filter). None of these comprise a REGULATOR. Got it? Makes me wonder if you even know what a voltage regulator IS. >On 12/22/2007 12:34 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Makes me wonder if you even know what a voltage regulator IS. Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. -- Ray > >On 12/22/2007 12:34 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in > series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. Some MR power supplies (eg Bachmann set) use the trafo winding resistance itself as the means of regulation. :-) > Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in > series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. Well, either (a) one of you is clueless, or perhaps (b) you are just talking about different things. To me, voltage regulator = something to keep voltage very close to constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either of you are interpreting it to mean? On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:36:22 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> instead replied: >> Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in >> series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either >of you are interpreting it to mean? There are many forms of regulation, Eddie. What these folk seem to be using as a qualifier is an IC regulator rather than the more basic forms. If it doesn't have a 78xx, it's not a regulator according to them. In the real world, regulators are much simpler. Especially those in wall cubes. -- Ray >> To me, voltage regulator = something to keep voltage very close to >> constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > according to them. In the real world, regulators are much simpler.< |
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