 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups General ModelsRailroadsRocketsRadio Controlled Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater ModelsModelGeeks.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Model Forum / General / Railroads / December 200712 volt power source?
I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? I'm asking because I'm installing tortoise machines and in checking some of my old 12v DC power sources, I see that they actually measure about 16 v DC... even though they are labled as 12 volts. It seems odd that three 12 volt sources would all measure about 16 so I'm wondering if a 12 volt power supply is actually something other than 12 volts... much like a 2x4 is really 1.5 x 3.5. My concern, of course, is that I don't want to burn out a tortoise machine using a 12 volt power supply that is really 16. Any thoughts? Carter Braxton > I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? No. 12 volts was the figure set because car batteries were nominally 12 volts. They are actually 13.8 volts in their fully charged state. 12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA and MOROP. MOROP further defines that model locomotives should run at scale maximum speed x 1.3 at 12 volts DC. > I'm asking because I'm > installing tortoise machines and in checking some of my old 12v DC power > sources, I see that they actually measure about 16 v DC... even though they > are labled as 12 volts. Transformer voltage output will vary with load. One would expect a non-stablized trafo labelled 12 volts to show perhaps 16 volts at no-load and 10 volts at 1.5-2 times maximum rated load. > It seems odd that three 12 volt sources would all measure about 16 so I'm > wondering if a 12 volt power supply is actually something other than 12 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Any thoughts? Your tortoise machine should be ok on 16 volts, but 12 volts would be preferable. The 16 volt AC accessory output commonly found on MR controllers came about because the old selenium plate rectifiers dropped the common transformer winding from 16 v AC to 12 v DC. (give or take a couple of volts either way and allowance for load variations, wind direction, humidity, temperature and monday morning hand windings) Greg.P. NZ >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? > >No. >12 volts was the figure set because car batteries were nominally 12 >volts. They are actually 13.8 volts in their fully charged state. Nonsense. >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >non-stablized trafo labelled 12 volts to show perhaps 16 volts at >no-load and 10 volts at 1.5-2 times maximum rated load. This is more correct. The load is the issue, not the 13.8 charge voltage. Unloaded power supplies will in fact go to the rail, the term used for the upper limit of the regulator. Loaded power supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. -- Ray > >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nonsense. Care to expand on that point? A standard automotive lead-acid battery in normally charged state is 13.8 volts. > >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA > >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > voltage. Unloaded power supplies will in fact go to the rail, the > term used for the upper limit of the regulator. We're discussing unregulated power supplies at this point. > Loaded power > supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. 'Regulated' power supplies ... You average power supply, those owned by (say) 90% of modellers using analogue control, does not include an electronic regulator. Regards, Greg.P. > Care to expand on that point? > A standard automotive lead-acid battery in normally charged state is > 13.8 volts. Nope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery After full charge the terminal voltage will drop quickly to 13.2 V and then slowly to 12.6 V. Klaus  SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe >> >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >A standard automotive lead-acid battery in normally charged state is >13.8 volts. Yes but he's not talking about a charger here or a battery. He was asking about a 12 volts. Don't confuse the issue. >> >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >> >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >We're discussing unregulated power supplies at this point. No, you are. Everyone else is probably on the same page. >> Loaded power >> supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. > >'Regulated' power supplies ... >You average power supply, those owned by (say) 90% of modellers using >analogue control, does not include an electronic regulator. 12 volts is 12 volts. Under no load conditions, unregulated or regulated power supplies will read higher. -- Ray > >> >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >> >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Yes but he's not talking about a charger here or a battery. He was > asking about a 12 volts. Don't confuse the issue. I mentioned that because initially "12 volts" trains were commonly run from 12 volt car batteries - ie nominally 12 volts but actually slightly higher. That is the precedent which set the expectation for HO models. > >> >12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA > >> >and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > No, you are. Everyone else is probably on the same page. You're always on a different page. > >> Loaded power > >> supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Ray >> >> >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> >> >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >from 12 volt car batteries - ie nominally 12 volts but actually slightly >higher. That is the precedent which set the expectation for HO models. Fair enough, Greg, but the charge circuits are 13.8 volts while the battery remains very near to 12 volts. Seriously. -- Ray On 12/20/2007 11:23 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>I mentioned that because initially "12 volts" trains were commonly run >>from 12 volt car batteries - ie nominally 12 volts but actually slightly >>higher. That is the precedent which set the expectation for HO models. > > Fair enough, Greg, but the charge circuits are 13.8 volts while the > battery remains very near to 12 volts. Seriously. Data point: I measured my car's battery voltage (in good shape & fully charged). 12.5 volts (both my multimeters agree). >>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nonsense. RAY; If you want to 'Nit Pick', please do it on something that matters. The 13.8 volts is accurate TO the degree of accuracy usually encountered when talking in 'Model Railroad Circles'. You want Super Lab. accuracy?, that can be done, with the effect of losing the essence of the original question. >>12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >>and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > This is more correct. The load is the issue, not the 13.8 charge > voltage. That was mentioned as a matter of historical reference, nothing more. > Unloaded power supplies will in fact go to the rail, the > term used for the upper limit of the regulator. Since we are NOT talking about 'Laboratory Regulated Power Supplies here, there is no connection to the original question, or the 'nit picked' answer. > Loaded power supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. Lab Supplies, yes. Model Railroad Power Supplies, are a horse of a different color. Chuck D. > -- > Ray > >>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Lab Supplies, yes. Model Railroad Power Supplies, are a horse of a > different color. I'll take a bet that the Bachmann 1/4 amp tin box/plastic box set controller is _the_ most common 12 v DC controller out there. Regards, Greg.P. >>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >that can be done, with the effect of losing the essence of the original >question. I'm not nit picking, mate. The 12 volt battery consists of 6 cells each of which outpout 2 volts making the total 12 volts. The charger for that battery must be higher by 10% in order to charge the cells. A power supply, which is what the fellow is asking about, is NOT 13.8 volts even in Model Railroad Circles. A CHARGER is but not a POWER SUPPLY. Get it? >>>12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >>>and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >here, there is no connection to the original question, or the 'nit >picked' answer. Regulated or unregulated, a 12 volt supply always puts out a higher voltage until it has a load on it. Believe it. >> Loaded power supplies will be stable at 12 volts if they are not faulty. > >Lab Supplies, yes. Model Railroad Power Supplies, are a horse of a >different color. They still put out 12 volts, not 13.8 volts. -- Ray > Regulated or unregulated, a 12 volt supply always puts out a higher > voltage until it has a load on it. Believe it. Say what ? Whay do you then needs a regulator for. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe >> Regulated or unregulated, a 12 volt supply always puts out a higher >> voltage until it has a load on it. Believe it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Klaus To maintain the 12V under load. > To maintain the 12V under load. And without. If you consider my Fluke 87 (voltage meter) as a load then noone knows if the 12 volt is more than 12 volts without load, because you can't measure it unless you connect a load. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:16:23 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> To maintain the 12V under load. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >if the 12 volt is more than 12 volts without load, because you can't >measure it unless you connect a load. In some regulator circuits, a meter is enough of a load. In others, a meter just doesn't quite do the job. Look, Klaus, the real point I was making is that there is a significant difference between a 13.8 volt battery charger and a 12 volt power supply. Those wall cubes most people think are 12 volt supplies are sometimes chargers for internal batteries on some device or other. Using a multimeter will usually, but not always, separate the types for you. A load is part of the power supply circuit and when present your voltmeter will be more accurate than when not present. -- Ray > In some regulator circuits, a meter is enough of a load. But how do you then know the voltage unloaded ? > In others, a meter just doesn't quite do the job. Very bad design. > Look, Klaus, the real point I > was making is that there is a significant difference between a 13.8 > volt battery charger and a 12 volt power supply. I totally agree on that Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:41:16 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> In some regulator circuits, a meter is enough of a load. > >But how do you then know the voltage unloaded ? You really don't until you apply an external load. >> In others, a meter just doesn't quite do the job. > >Very bad design. Clearly. The wall cube transformer/power supplies are often designed to be used with a specific item which does apply a load. Saves money. We all like those $10.00 answering machines but those wall cubes must be shaved down in cost to allow that kind of price. You get the idea. >> Look, Klaus, the real point I >> was making is that there is a significant difference between a 13.8 >> volt battery charger and a 12 volt power supply. > >I totally agree on that Lucky for me. You're good. Too good. -- Ray > You really don't until you apply an external load. So how can you claim that the voltage is higher unloaded ? My scope with the probe in x10 position loads the powersupply with 100MOhm - would you call that a load ? > Lucky for me. You're good. Too good. 20 years in electronics repair/design/manufacture/support is the load on my back....... Despite I'm not in the business right now, my latest repair was yesterday in my garage. A guy from one of the local garages mailed me and asked if i knew who in our town could repair on SMD level - my answer was Me or the local Vestas factory, so they came to me. Resolder of SMD chips on a dashboard controller for a Renault is now in my experiance list :-) They called me today - it was a great success.......... Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:38:47 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> You really don't until you apply an external load. > >So how can you claim that the voltage is higher unloaded ? Multimeters don't apply much of a load by design. My claim was based on a statement that the voltage on a 12 volt supply read more than 12 volts. Made by another poster, not me. I know for a fact, and based on your experiences stated below, that this is common with some poorly designed or special purpose power supplies. They rely on the load to have full regulation. It saves the manufacturer money. >My scope with the probe in x10 position loads the powersupply with >100MOhm - would you call that a load ? Not at all. Anything above 10MOhm is not considered a load. >> Lucky for me. You're good. Too good. > >20 years in electronics repair/design/manufacture/support is the load on >my back....... I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). >Despite I'm not in the business right now, my latest repair was >yesterday in my garage. A guy from one of the local garages mailed me >and asked if i knew who in our town could repair on SMD level - my >answer was Me or the local Vestas factory, so they came to me. Resolder >of SMD chips on a dashboard controller for a Renault is now in my >experiance list :-) I only do design work for myself now. I teach a bit at the local tertiary schools here in Perth whenever I'm asked. I am a former third party rep for MicroChip but gave it up when I moved to Australia from San Diego. I truly love embedded control and use any excuse at all to drop a PIC into a project. >They called me today - it was a great success... Well done. -- Ray > Multimeters don't apply much of a load by design. My claim was based > on a statement that the voltage on a 12 volt supply read more than > 12 volts. Made by another poster, not me. I know for a fact, and > based on your experiences stated below, that this is common with > some poorly designed or special purpose power supplies. They rely on > the load to have full regulation. It saves the manufacturer money. We totally agreee...... Shitty powersupplies depend on load, but regulated doesnt. > I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors > were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams > but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine > from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). Darn - Z80 was in my youth (I'm "only" 35:-) Did you ever get the ZX spectrums ? http://www.worldofspectrum.org/ AFAIR it was british build and based on the Z80A. They keyboard was rubber and was later used as "anti slip mats in showers" :-) > I only do design work for myself now. I teach a bit at the local > tertiary schools here in Perth whenever I'm asked. I am a former > third party rep for MicroChip but gave it up when I moved to > Australia from San Diego. I truly love embedded control and use any > excuse at all to drop a PIC into a project. Neat :-) > Well done. Thanks. Another of my proud job was a late night, we were pretty drunk, when my friend pulled out an DVD player with defective switchmode powersupply. It took about 10 minutes and then it was running again - typical error, toasted power diode and dead capacitors..... The next morning i had headache...... Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On 12/21/2007 2:55 PM Klaus D. Mikkelsen spake thus: >> I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors >> were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams >> but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine >> from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). > > Darn - Z80 was in my youth (I'm "only" 35:-) I still think the Z80 is one of the most underutilized and underappreciated machines ever built in the late 20th century. All that power and speed in such an unassuming package. Like those totally kewl alternate register sets and the instructions that swap them with the regular set, for high-speed interrupt processing ... >I still think the Z80 is one of the most underutilized and >underappreciated machines ever built in the late 20th century. All that Seconded. Zilog is still out there, pushing souped-up Z80s as embedded controllers. * Signature* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something like corkscrews. On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:55:37 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> Multimeters don't apply much of a load by design. My claim was based >> on a statement that the voltage on a 12 volt supply read more than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Shitty powersupplies depend on load, but regulated doesnt. Most here seem to be hunting the cheapest of the cheap and probably buy the wall wart type. More than half of those are only partially regulated relying on the equipment on the load side to finish the regulation. Awful practice, that, but it does make for cheap power supplies when you need them. >> I've only got 40 years. Tubes were on the way out and transistors >> were very expensive back then. Integrated circuits were only dreams >> but they did exist when I started out. Built my first S-100 machine >> from scratch using a brand shiny new, Z80 (Soooooo expensive!). > >Darn - Z80 was in my youth (I'm "only" 35:-) I nearly used an 8080A but the Z80 came available and I switched. All wire-wrapped. What a headache that was. Tedious but fun. >Did you ever get the ZX spectrums ? >http://www.worldofspectrum.org/ >AFAIR it was british build and based on the Z80A. They keyboard was >rubber and was later used as "anti slip mats in showers" :-) I had a Sinclair ZX80, the membrane keyboard type. Designed a 64k memory expansion for it and published the design in the old Popular Electronics magazine sometime in the '80s. I forgot which name I published under for that one. I use pen names mostly to avoid flame wars here on USENET over something I publish. >> I only do design work for myself now. I teach a bit at the local >> tertiary schools here in Perth whenever I'm asked. I am a former [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >typical error, toasted power diode and dead capacitors..... >The next morning i had headache...... I picked up a dead, second-hand, rack mounted P4 Quad Core PC used for 6 months as a server before it failed. It was failing big time according to the seller and I verified that. But, his company had replaced it with a bigger and better server with 4 terabytes of hard drive. This one had 4 320GByte ATA/IDE drives, 2 500GByte SCSI drives, 2 SCSI controllers and a 4 port RAID controller. On inspection, I found a lightning damaged burned trace at the DMA controller chip and fixed the unit. It's a screamer with more hard drive space than I can use in a lifetime. It cost me a whopping $10.00 yesterday. I wiped all the drives clean as promised. Now, what shall I do with it? I think I'll sleep on it. It has sharp pointy corners but with a thick enough blanket I can at least have a nap on it. Oh, rats. I meant to send this by e-mail but it's too much bother to retype it or cut and paste it. So, it goes on the newsgroup with a copy by e-mail. Sorry it's so horribly off topic, guys. Well, I can make it on topic easy enough. I believe I'll use that new PC to automate my trains. There. On topic now. -- Ray [snip prior chit chat] > I picked up a dead, second-hand, rack mounted P4 Quad Core PC used > for 6 months as a server before it failed. It was failing big time [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Ray LOL PS: I "built" me a new PC with an MSI board (1000MHz FSB) and a 2.4GHz Intel Dual Core, 2GB 800MHz DDR, two 250GB SATA, 256MB PCI-X video card, and a floppy drive. Still feel uneasy without a floppy drive. Had to put it in a tall tower, else the CPU fan wouldn't fit under the PSU. Just plugged all the bits and pieces together, turned it on, installed a brand new copy of XP Pro/SP2, copied a pile of zips and install packages from a CD, and starting playing with it. Erm, I meant _working_ with it. ;-) Fastest machine Ive ever used. On 12/21/2007 3:37 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:55:37 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > regulation. Awful practice, that, but it does make for cheap power > supplies when you need them. I've taken apart lots of wall warts (to cannibalize the parts within) and don't remember ever seeing any with a regulator. Just a transformer, a bridge rectifier (or two diodes) and filter capacitor(s). >On 12/21/2007 3:37 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >and don't remember ever seeing any with a regulator. Just a transformer, >a bridge rectifier (or two diodes) and filter capacitor(s). Your point? -- Ray On 12/21/2007 4:15 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 3:37 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Your point? They're *all* unregulated, contrary to your observation about how "more than half of those are only partly regulated". No regulation at all. >On 12/21/2007 4:15 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >They're *all* unregulated, contrary to your observation about how "more >than half of those are only partly regulated". No regulation at all. Then you're wrong. They are mostly regulated. If they aren't, you aren't opening the right ones. -- Ray On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 4:15 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Then you're wrong. They are mostly regulated. If they aren't, you > aren't opening the right ones. And how do you know that? Have you cracked any open yourself? I mean, I've opened literally *dozens* of the little buggers, and never saw a single regulator--78xx or anything similar--in any of them. >On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >I mean, I've opened literally *dozens* of the little buggers, and never >saw a single regulator--78xx or anything similar--in any of them. And you think that's the only kind of regulator out there? Oh, dear. -- Ray On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > And you think that's the only kind of regulator out there? Oh, dear. No, they can also be made of discrete (i.e., non-IC) components (like transistors). But there has to be *something* there besides a transformer, rectifier and filter capacitors. So what kind of regulators do you think is in those wall warts, eh, Ray? >On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >transformer, rectifier and filter capacitors. So what kind of regulators >do you think is in those wall warts, eh, Ray? Even a zener diode is a regulator. Play puffery all you want, David. I do know what I am discussing here while you are just guessing after opening a few wall cubes. Enjoy the game. -- Ray >> On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > -- > Ray Ray you are wrong. Very few wallwarts in the US have any kind of regulation. >>> On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > >Ray you are wrong. Very few wallwarts in the US have any kind of regulation. So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? -- Ray > So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator > is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. But no regulator. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... > > So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator > > is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? > > Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. > > But no regulator. Sounds like you're describing the average wall-wart! I've yet to find a decent sized capacitor intended for smoothing in the few wws I've dismantled but I have found small value capacitors which I assume were there for suppressing radio interference. That might of course just be that I haven't dismantled enough wws. Regards, Greg.P. On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:24:54 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> So they put out 110AC? If not, you have no idea of what a regulator >> is. How do they get it do 12 volts DC from 110? > >Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. > >But no regulator. By definition, those are parts of a regulator and what you describe is a rudimentary one. What these yokels are describing is an IC regulator. The wall cubes often contain far less than an IC. -- Ray On 12/22/2007 1:59 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:24:54 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is a rudimentary one. What these yokels are describing is an IC > regulator. The wall cubes often contain far less than an IC. You're just plain wrong. An xfmr, rectifier (and optionally a capacitor) make up an UNREGULATED power supply. Any 15-year-old kid who's studied electronics knows that. You're just being annoying. And of course, you'll never admit you're wrong. >> Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is a rudimentary one. What these yokels are describing is an IC > regulator. The wall cubes often contain far less than an IC. What you are describing is known as a *filtered* power supply, not a *regulated* power supply. A regulated power supply requires the use of some active components such as transistors or ICs. Power supplies using only passive components such as transformers, resistors, capacitors and diodes (including Zener diodes) do not constitute regulated power supplies. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Transvestasaurus Rex - a cross-dressing dinosaur >>> Transformer, rectifier and perhaps a capacitor. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >only passive components such as transformers, resistors, capacitors and >diodes (including Zener diodes) do not constitute regulated power supplies. Those wall warts are not ALWAYS regulated. Show me where I ever stated that ALL of them were? Just because you cut a few open and found something else doesn't make you correct in this thread. You have all diverged away into areas where you can be right and strayed away from my original statement. Very childish. But I expect no less from some of the morons here. -- Ray > By definition, those are parts of a regulator No, that's what is called an unregulated power supply. A regulated power supply contains an active omponen thet regulates the output voltage and/or current. http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/power1.html http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_9/1.html Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:01:53 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> By definition, those are parts of a regulator > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/power1.html >http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_9/1.html They're all part, Klaus. Try building a regulated power supply without those. The wall cube forms the first part or a chain. -- Ray On 12/22/2007 11:18 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:01:53 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They're all part, Klaus. Try building a regulated power supply > without those. The wall cube forms the first part or a chain. What a lame-a.s answer. But I see what you've been doing: playing with semantics, all to avoid owning up to your being totally wrong in your arguments so far. Yes, a wall wart can form PART of a REGULATED power supply, IF the regulating part of the circuit is inside the thing being powered. But BY ITSELF, the wall wart is (always, in my experience), UNREGULATED. To put it more precisely, any power supply that only contains a transformer, rectifier and filter is UNREGULATED by itself. Anyone reading my many previous posts (except, apparently, you) would have gotten that by now. And yes, we know (or at least I do) that zener diodes are used as voltage regulators. But as I said, I've never even seen a zener in the many wall warts I've dismantled, meaning that they're totally unregulated. >On 12/22/2007 11:18 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >But I see what you've been doing: playing with semantics, all to avoid >owning up to your being totally wrong in your arguments so far. Actually, I never, ever stated that ALL wall warts contained regulated power supplies. That was down to you and Greg. You claimed you opened billions of them and never found even one. Ok. Not billions but you see what you did, right? You moved my statement over to where YOU could win. Instead of sticking to the original comments I made, you moved it over and made a big stink over it. In fact, I never stated that ALL wall warts contained regulated power supplies only that they made up a composite power supply with their load. Go back and see. Loading is necessary to get them to be at the proper voltage according to what is printed on them. For you to make such a stink over your own misleading comments is very bad form, David. Very bad. >Yes, a wall wart can form PART of a REGULATED power supply, IF the >regulating part of the circuit is inside the thing being powered. But BY >ITSELF, the wall wart is (always, in my experience), UNREGULATED. To put >it more precisely, any power supply that only contains a transformer, >rectifier and filter is UNREGULATED by itself. Anyone reading my many >previous posts (except, apparently, you) would have gotten that by now. David, I spent over 40 years in electronics. Don't pretend to tell me what a regulated power supply consists of. >And yes, we know (or at least I do) that zener diodes are used as >voltage regulators. But as I said, I've never even seen a zener in the >many wall warts I've dismantled, meaning that they're totally unregulated. Thank you. I have seen them there. You can't have opened every wall wart in existence. However, let me point out that you probably opened those you believed weren't working properly. That leads me to believe you opened them because the voltage was incorrect. That also leads me to suspect that because of your mistaken beliefs, they weren't really bad at all just unregulated. I had a friend who put a 7805 circuit on a 12 volt wall wart. It promptly caught fire. Both the circuit he built and the wall wart. The reason? There was a 7512 in the wall wart. Disaster. This entire subject has been hijacked by you and Greg. All I stated was that there were no 13.8 volt batteries out there and that the wall cubes that put out that voltage were chargers, not power supplies. Now, kindly knock it off and stick to what you know. -- Ray > >On 12/22/2007 11:18 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > -- > Ray Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: <http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> Here's a laboratory power supply from Dick Smith Electronics: <http://dseau.resultspage.com/search.php?sessionid=476eb5e50123fe3a273fc0a87f9c07 18&w=Power+supply+13.8&site=&submit.x=11&submit.y=8> Sorry the links are so long but that takes you to the specific product. I've been involved with fitting ship, boat and truck radio/depth finding etc gear (AWA NZ, a division of RCA USA) All our gear was rated at 13.8 volts because that's the operating voltage found on batteries in circuit in those situations. >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >volts because that's the operating voltage found on batteries in circuit >in those situations. That's because they run from a generator or an alternator and not a 12 volt battery which is never, ever going to be at 13.8 volts. -- Ray > >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's because they run from a generator or an alternator and not a > 12 volt battery which is never, ever going to be at 13.8 volts. LOL. The battery is in circuit between the generator/alternator and the load, it's an integral part of the voltage regulation circuit. If the alternator and the load are at 13.8 volts then the battery _must_ be at ...? >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >If the alternator and the load are at 13.8 volts then the battery _must_ >be at ...? No, Greg. The entire CIRCUIT is at 13.8 volts. Not the battery. When you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like always. You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. -- Ray > >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > No, Greg. The entire CIRCUIT is at 13.8 volts. Exactly Ray - geeze, it really takes a _long_ time for you to not understand the completely obvious! > Not the battery. When > you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like > always. Why do you keep stating that which is only correct when the battery is at 12 volts? > You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. > -- > Ray >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Exactly Ray - geeze, it really takes a _long_ time for you to not >understand the completely obvious! Baloney. You've been spewing from the mountaintops that a 12 volt battery will measure 13.8 volts and that's simply wrong. Don't try to weasel out of it now. Everyone here has been trying to convince you that the CHARGING circuit is 13.8 volts and now you pretend you knew it all along. A 12 volt battery will not ever measure 13.8 volts as you stated. >> Not the battery. When >> you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like >> always. > >Why do you keep stating that which is only correct when the battery is >at 12 volts? Because a 12 volt battery will never, ever measure 13.8 volts. Ever. >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. This one bears repeating. You simply don't understand batteries, Greg. -- Ray > >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > A 12 volt battery will not ever measure 13.8 volts as you stated. That battery company I cited is going to be very disappointed! > >> Not the battery. When > >> you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Because a 12 volt battery will never, ever measure 13.8 volts. Ever. In that case the car electric connected to said battery will never measure 13.8 volts. Ever. The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is sort of wasted really. > >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. > > This one bears repeating. You simply don't understand batteries, > Greg. Fair point - care to design my current electric car design for me? >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >That battery company I cited is going to be very disappointed! They're on the same page as me, Greg. Why would you believe otherwise? >> >> Not the battery. When >> >> you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >In that case the car electric connected to said battery will never >measure 13.8 volts. Ever. Exactly. Not without external potential added. A battery circuit, including the battery, can be driven to a higher voltage but that process is known as charging. When used as a source of power, a battery will never be at 13.8 volts. It's a physics thing. >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is >sort of wasted really. That's what the float limit is all about. Gassing causes the electrolyte's hydrogen to leave the battery. It's a serious issue. If you charge at too high a voltage, the electrolyte outgasses and you get spidering between the cells which can cause cell failure. Water vapor also escapes during gassing which lowers the levels. Gel batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on them can cause swelling and cell failure from heat. >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Fair point - care to design my current electric car design for me? No thanks, mate. I'm converting one now. A Dihatsu Mira-J. I'm so pleased about how clean the car has become since the engine is gone. I've got 3 years invested in it and don't expect to finish for at least another 3. Batteries (huge power sources) are getting cheaper and different every day. Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp Look in the middle column, third one down. The best part? They're literally a few miles away from me. Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? -- Ray > >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > process is known as charging. When used as a source of power, a > battery will never be at 13.8 volts. It's a physics thing. Are you saying the battery in a normal automobile has no function other than when the engine is turned off? > >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is > >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end > this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? I've certainly had enough of it! > -- > Ray >> Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end >> this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? > >I've certainly had enough of it! It sure doesn't appear that you mean this. So, do you build your own switches? -- Ray > >> Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end > >> this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So, do you build your own switches? As in turnouts? That will have to be a yes/no answer. I have built my own in the past and have modified proprietry ones. My two current HO layouts use Peco: - shunting layout code 100 with nothing standard. - my main layout has Peco Code 75, again all modified. I started with ME code 70 track and hand-made turnouts but decided proprietry turnouts were quicker. - I'm currently tooling up to produce NZR 45mm gauge turnouts. (by alternative scale :-) >> So, do you build your own switches? > >As in turnouts? Well, yes. >That will have to be a yes/no answer. >I have built my own in the past and have modified proprietry ones. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >- I'm currently tooling up to produce NZR 45mm gauge turnouts. (by >alternative scale :-) I did sort of the same thing but in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca brass turnout to build one left and one right. Had to use stripped down flex track because finding a source of extruded rail was impossible. To be honest, the benefits of doing them by hand was only mental. I did relax during the work but there wasn't anything special about them as far as operationally. Thus, for me, the manufacturer's turnouts are easier. I'd like to find a source of extruded metal on a roll for G-Scale track. Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging to become rail ties. Begging. -- Ray > >> So, do you build your own switches? > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > special about them as far as operationally. Thus, for me, the > manufacturer's turnouts are easier. The advantage I was initially going for was more correct sleeper size and spacing than Peco makes. (era and prototype) I finally decided the difference would be minimal. > I'd like to find a source of extruded metal on a roll for G-Scale > track. Well, err, it's not exactly flexible to a managable roll size! Getting it straight again would require rollers. > Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging > to become rail ties. Begging. Right now I'm milling PVC. >> >> So, do you build your own switches? >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Well, err, it's not exactly flexible to a managable roll size! Getting >it straight again would require rollers. Big rolls. Really big rolls. >> Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging >> to become rail ties. Begging. > >Right now I'm milling PVC. That doesn't conduct very well for rail use. -- Ray > >> >> So, do you build your own switches? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Big rolls. Really big rolls. Well, if you've got really big money just get a die made and have it produced! I'd consider buying say code 215 in nickel silver. > >> Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging > >> to become rail ties. Begging. > > > >Right now I'm milling PVC. > > That doesn't conduct very well for rail use. Err no, I'm buying expensive NS rail locally. I don't need very much to produce turnouts. [...] > I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca > brass turnout to build one left and one right. Had to use stripped > down flex track because finding a source of extruded rail was > impossible. Micro Engineering makes Code 40/55/70/83/100, "weathered" (brown) and non-weathered n/s. Code 40, 55 are right for N, code 70 is OK. Peco makes code 60/75/80 n/s. Code 50 is right for N, 75 is OK, 80 matches standard sectional N track by Peco, Atlas and others. >To be honest, the benefits of doing them by hand was > only mental. I did relax during the work but there wasn't anything [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Ray Micro Engineering: code 125, 148, 205, 250 n/s, and 250, 332 in aluminum. Peco: code 250 brass Code 250 and up will work nicely for G, but code 148 and 205 would look better IMO. But most G wheels have flanges that too deep for this rail. HTH > [...] > > I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Peco: code 250 brass My Peco catalogue shows 215 and 250 in NS. > Code 250 and up will work nicely for G, but code 148 and 205 would look > better IMO. But most G wheels have flanges that too deep for this rail. > > HTH >> [...] >>> I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > My Peco catalogue shows 215 and 250 in NS. And your point is????? Surely by this time it's dawned on you that Peco doesn't sell the same products in all markets. >> Code 250 and up will work nicely for G, but code 148 and 205 would look >> better IMO. But most G wheels have flanges that too deep for this rail. >> >> HTH > >> [...] > >>> I [built turnouts] in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Surely by this time it's dawned on you that Peco doesn't sell the same > products in all markets. Peco sells it's products world-wide. If you demand product 'xyz' they will sell it to you. It's the importer who decides which of Peco's products they will stock, based on perceived demand. I've just gone through the procedure of telling the NZ importer of Peco that they should stock the G guage range. I buy my HO code 75 from Britain. Regards, Greg.P. > >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > process is known as charging. When used as a source of power, a > battery will never be at 13.8 volts. It's a physics thing. Awww Ray, if the electrical circuitry of the car is at 13.8 volts then the battery is at 13.8 volts - it's a physics thing. > >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is > >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you get spidering between the cells which can cause cell failure. > Water vapor also escapes during gassing which lowers the levels. I do hope you mean _to_ too high a level? If you charge a battery it has to rise through every voltage point from start to ... > Gel > batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on > them can cause swelling and cell failure from heat. It's best not to overcharge those either - however, they still have to be charged from their starting point through every voltage point to overcharge. > >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > least another 3. Batteries (huge power sources) are getting cheaper > and different every day. I've just put aside the idea of building a car from scratch and am looking for something like the Daihatsu Mira. There's not enough years left! > Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! > http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Ray >> >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >> >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >Awww Ray, if the electrical circuitry of the car is at 13.8 volts then >the battery is at 13.8 volts - it's a physics thing. No, it's not. When you remove the 13.8 volt source, which is NOT the battery, the battery remains at 12 volts. Period. >> >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is >> >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I do hope you mean _to_ too high a level? If you charge a battery it has >to rise through every voltage point from start to ... No, Greg. If you were to say use 20 volts to charge, that would be too high a level. There's no way to charge a 12 volt battery to any old voltage you choose. Even 13.8 volts is impossible. Thus, when the charge voltage is removed, the battery is at 12 volts. No more than that or just barely above it. Certainly that battery will never be charged to 20 volts or even 13.8 volts. You're grasping at straws now, Greg. >> Gel >> batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >be charged from their starting point through every voltage point to >overcharge. Lead-acid batteries are nearly impossible to overcharge but if you apply to high a float potential you will get gassing or outgassing. >> >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >> >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >looking for something like the Daihatsu Mira. >There's not enough years left! I decided to make it rear wheel drive with the entire front compartment reserved for batteries. I'm experimenting with the fuel cells. Two motors on the rear and all the power and most of the mass up front. Since the mass is all between the axles front to back, that will make it a very stable vehicle. Small, but stable. >> Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! >> http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end >> this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? What did you think of the fuel cells? -- Ray > >> >> >> >> >Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: > >> >> >> >> ><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > No, it's not. When you remove the 13.8 volt source, which is NOT the > battery, the battery remains at 12 volts. Period. We will just have to agree to differ on that point - all my multimeters agree with me. > >> >The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is > >> >sort of wasted really. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > No, Greg. If you were to say use 20 volts to charge, that would be > too high a level. Basic Ohms law here: Input voltage (minus voltage sources in circuit) / resistance = current flow. 13.8v+ / resistance = excessive current. > There's no way to charge a 12 volt battery to any > old voltage you choose. Even 13.8 volts is impossible. That's the voltage my cite claims is possible. Even your cite said 13.2 volts+. > Thus, when > the charge voltage is removed, the battery is at 12 volts. That doesn't agree with reality. If the charge level is less than 12 volts you won't find 12 volts across the terminals. > No more > than that or just barely above it. Just barely above it?? 12.5? 13? 13.2? > Certainly that battery will never > be charged to 20 volts or even 13.8 volts. 13.8 volts is the (safe) limit. > You're grasping at straws > now, Greg. I'm still holding the same straws I started with. > >> Gel > >> batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Lead-acid batteries are nearly impossible to overcharge but if you > apply to high a float potential you will get gassing or outgassing. That has to do with resistance/current flow. > >> >> >> You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at > >> >> >> that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > up front. Since the mass is all between the axles front to back, > that will make it a very stable vehicle. Small, but stable. I was designing a minimal two in-line seat 4 wheel vehicle to minimise wind and rolling resistance. Building and certifying such a vehicle could be a long process. I now have to start over with an existing vehicle and extrapolate everything I've done so far. > >> Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! > >> http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What did you think of the fuel cells? I still have to get to that, rellies here until an hour ago. However it has to be something I can obtain here, at a workable cost. >Basic Ohms law here: >Input voltage (minus voltage sources in circuit) / resistance = current >flow. >13.8v+ / resistance = excessive current. Ohms law in an active circuit? Oh, dear. -- Ray >>>>>>Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: >>>>>><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords=Bench+power+ supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&price Min=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Because a 12 volt battery will never, ever measure 13.8 volts. Ever. Well Ray, it seems that you haven't ever actually measured a battery voltage while it is being charged! [And for the few microseconds AFTER removal of the charging voltage.] The voltage RAPIDLY drops, but there IS a finite time where the voltage is STILL at the 13.8 volt level. Chuck D. >>>You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at >>>that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > Ray >Well Ray, it seems that you haven't ever actually measured a battery >voltage while it is being charged! [And for the few microseconds AFTER >removal of the charging voltage.] The voltage RAPIDLY drops, but there >IS a finite time where the voltage is STILL at the 13.8 volt level. I've done both. The battery under charge has a floating voltage of 13.8 volts not from the battery but from the charging circuit. After the charging circuit is removed, the battery is at 12 volts. Anything else is just plain nonsense. -- Ray > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:01:53 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They're all part, Klaus. Try building a regulated power supply > without those. The wall cube forms the first part or a chain. By that reasoning my key-chain LED torch (flashlite) is a mainframe computer controlling a CIA intelligence gathering network! >>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> >>>>On 12/21/2007 7:03 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: etc., etc., etc. Have either of you ever heard of snipping (trimming) posts? >>>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Have either of you ever heard of snipping (trimming) posts? Maybe we could provide their computers with Commode Diodes, to dump all the bullshit straight to ground. (I used to have one on my car radio to filter out the shitkicker music when driving across the nation's underbelly.) SignatureSteve On 12/22/2007 10:16 AM Steve Caple spake thus: >>>>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > bullshit straight to ground. (I used to have one on my car radio to filter > out the shitkicker music when driving across the nation's underbelly.) How did that work? Some kind of comb filter? An adaptive RRF (redneck resonant filter)? (In todays Internet-radio-based terms: "Please enter a list of stations NOT to listen to".) > How did that work? Never opened it up, but it probably looked for a combination of dobro and massed strings, or perhaps in a miracle of computational compression was able to scan for words like "dog" and "dead" and "pickup", or perhaps just frequency analysis was able to detect pouty chin-bearded whiners. SignatureSteve >Have either of you ever heard of snipping (trimming) posts? I almost always do, Larry. I'll try to do better just for you. -- Ray On 12/22/2007 12:01 AM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>On 12/21/2007 8:52 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I do know what I am discussing here while you are just guessing > after opening a few wall cubes. Enjoy the game. I know what a zener diode is and what they look like, and I haven't seen any of them in any wall warts either (and that's *dozens*, not just a few). No regulation whatsoever. You just don't know what you're talking about (no surprise there for a blowhard). >I know what a zener diode is and what they look like, and I haven't seen >any of them in any wall warts either (and that's *dozens*, not just a >few). No regulation whatsoever. > >You just don't know what you're talking about (no surprise there for a >blowhard). So your wall cube plugs in to 110 VAC and sends out 12 volts DC how? -- Ray On 12/22/2007 12:34 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: >>I know what a zener diode is and what they look like, and I haven't seen >>any of them in any wall warts either (and that's *dozens*, not just a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So your wall cube plugs in to 110 VAC and sends out 12 volts DC how? It has a TRANSFORMER (converts 110 VAC to, say, 10 VAC) and a RECTIFIER (plus a filter). None of these comprise a REGULATOR. Got it? Makes me wonder if you even know what a voltage regulator IS. >On 12/22/2007 12:34 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Makes me wonder if you even know what a voltage regulator IS. Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. -- Ray > >On 12/22/2007 12:34 PM Ray Haddad spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in > series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. Some MR power supplies (eg Bachmann set) use the trafo winding resistance itself as the means of regulation. :-) > Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in > series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. Well, either (a) one of you is clueless, or perhaps (b) you are just talking about different things. To me, voltage regulator = something to keep voltage very close to constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either of you are interpreting it to mean? On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:36:22 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> instead replied: >> Are you aware of what a regulator is? Even a simple resistor in >> series is a basic regulator. Get a grip, David. You haven't a clue. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either >of you are interpreting it to mean? There are many forms of regulation, Eddie. What these folk seem to be using as a qualifier is an IC regulator rather than the more basic forms. If it doesn't have a 78xx, it's not a regulator according to them. In the real world, regulators are much simpler. Especially those in wall cubes. -- Ray >> To me, voltage regulator = something to keep voltage very close to >> constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > according to them. In the real world, regulators are much simpler. > Especially those in wall cubes. I haven't read it that way. I have interpreted them to be saying that there is nothing - whether IC or otherwise - to control the voltage to a narrow range, i.e. nominal voltage +/- some very small deviation, e.g. 110V +- 2V or 12.0V +- 0.2V. Are you saying that there is something, and if so, what? On 12/22/2007 2:50 PM Eddie Oliver spake thus: >>> To me, voltage regulator = something to keep voltage very close to >>> constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 110V +- 2V or 12.0V +- 0.2V. Are you saying that there is something, and > if so, what? Well, he seems to be saying, judging from his most recent reply to me, that a simple series resistor will do it. Uhn uh. No way. >On 12/22/2007 2:50 PM Eddie Oliver spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Well, he seems to be saying, judging from his most recent reply to me, >that a simple series resistor will do it. Are you being deliberately obtuse? I stated very clearly that even a series resistor is a rudimentary form of regulation. In fact, a series resistor and a Zener diode are all that is required for basic regulation. >Uhn uh. No way. You are more ignorant than I gave you credit for. Press on, lad. -- Ray > >On 12/22/2007 2:50 PM Eddie Oliver spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > - Show quoted text - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This whole thing is getting very reVOLTing. <g> Bill > Are you being deliberately obtuse? I stated very clearly that even a > series resistor is a rudimentary form of regulation. In fact, a > series resistor and a Zener diode are all that is required for basic > regulation. Perhaps, Ray, you would advance your argument by defining what exactly you mean by 'regulation' (as distinct from filtering or limiting) and state exactly how a resistor and zener diode achieve this. On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:52:33 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> instead replied: >> Are you being deliberately obtuse? I stated very clearly that even a >> series resistor is a rudimentary form of regulation. In fact, a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >you mean by 'regulation' (as distinct from filtering or limiting) and >state exactly how a resistor and zener diode achieve this. No. I won't. It's basic power supply design. Look it up. http://www.americanmicrosemi.com/tutorials/zener.htm -- Ray > > Are you being deliberately obtuse? I stated very clearly that even a > > series resistor is a rudimentary form of regulation. In fact, a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you mean by 'regulation' (as distinct from filtering or limiting) and > state exactly how a resistor and zener diode achieve this. A diode for rectification, followed by a series resistor, followed by a zener diode to ground, paralleled with a smoothing capacitor constituted a voltage regulator way back. It's not exactly a high current supply though. Regards, Greg.P. >A diode for rectification, followed by a series resistor, followed by a >zener diode to ground, paralleled with a smoothing capacitor constituted >a voltage regulator way back. It's still one. -- Ray > >A diode for rectification, followed by a series resistor, followed by a > >zener diode to ground, paralleled with a smoothing capacitor constituted > >a voltage regulator way back. > > It's still one. Sure Ray, stop arguing with me when I agree with you! ;-) Greg.P. > > >A diode for rectification, followed by a series resistor, followed by a > > >zener diode to ground, paralleled with a smoothing capacitor constituted [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Greg.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm SHOCKED that this subject is still going on. It certainly exceeds my CAPICITOR to understand. Let's let the subject DIODE in peace. Bill > >On 12/22/2007 2:50 PM Eddie Oliver spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > You are more ignorant than I gave you credit for. Press on, lad. You give credit for ignorance? - are you a credit card company by any chance? ;-) >> >On 12/22/2007 2:50 PM Eddie Oliver spake thus: >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >chance? >;-) Oh, yeah! No credit limits either. No application fees. Post your PIN here and I'll show you. -- Ray > >> >On 12/22/2007 2:50 PM Eddie Oliver spake thus: > >> > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > -- > Ray But you haven't sent me my "Ray Haddad Gold Credit Card" yet. (or do I only get the "Lead" edition at this stage? ;-) >> >> >On 12/22/2007 2:50 PM Eddie Oliver spake thus: >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >(or do I only get the "Lead" edition at this stage? >;-) You get a battery of credit cards. -- Ray On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 09:50:19 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> instead replied: >>> To me, voltage regulator = something to keep voltage very close to >>> constant, i.e. in a very narrow predetermined range. Is that what either [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >110V +- 2V or 12.0V +- 0.2V. Are you saying that there is something, and >if so, what? As I have stated from the very start, the 13.8 volt supplies are chargers, not power supplies. I also stated that SOME, not ALL of the wall transformers contain regulated power supplies inside them. Now along come the two biggest morons on earth who both claim that NONE of them have regulators and it's suddenly my job to prove them wrong. Ask David and Greg for their proof. Get back to me if you get it in your lifetime. -- Ray > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 09:50:19 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > wrong. Ask David and Greg for their proof. Get back to me if you get > it in your lifetime. I may well be an idiot, (I'm answering you afterall) but why is it the "laboratory (style) power supplies" I can buy from electronics chains like Dick Smith and Jaycar are 13.8 volts??? Any automotive battery charger that put out a peak voltage of 13.8 volts would take until eternity to charge a 12 volt car battery to full charge. (assuming a perfect battery with no internal losses or resistance) Regards, Greg.P. >I may well be an idiot, (I'm answering you afterall) but why is it the >"laboratory (style) power supplies" I can buy from electronics chains >like Dick Smith and Jaycar are 13.8 volts??? Because the circuits those things run on are powered by an alternator running at 13.8 volts. The battery in most vehicles is only for starting the vehicle and for running things for a short time when the engine is stopped. >Any automotive battery charger that put out a peak voltage of 13.8 volts >would take until eternity to charge a 12 volt car battery to full >charge. (assuming a perfect battery with no internal losses or >resistance) I'd love to read your theory behind this one, Greg. Remember, a 12 volt battery is not a 13.8 volt device. It's a 12 volt device. -- Ray > >I may well be an idiot, (I'm answering you afterall) but why is it the > >"laboratory (style) power supplies" I can buy from electronics chains [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'd love to read your theory behind this one, Greg. Remember, a 12 > volt battery is not a 13.8 volt device. It's a 12 volt device. We all know it's only a "nominally" 12 volt device. >>I may well be an idiot, (I'm answering you afterall) but why is it the >>"laboratory (style) power supplies" I can buy from electronics chains [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alternator running at 13.8 volts. The battery in most vehicles is > only for starting the vehicle NOT!!!!! There is this little thing commonly referred to a 'Voltage Stabilization' I.E. the "12 Volt Lead Acid Battery" serves as a 'low impedance load for the electrical system' and also a 'medium impedence source for current when the 'Alternator/ Generator' is not supplying power. Chuck D. > and for running things for a short > time when the engine is stopped. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Ray >>>I may well be an idiot, (I'm answering you afterall) but why is it the >>>"laboratory (style) power supplies" I can buy from electronics chains [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >NOT!!!!! Yes it is. It also provides stator winding current but never, ever will the battery be a 13.8 volt device. >There is this little thing commonly referred to a 'Voltage Stabilization' > >I.E. the "12 Volt Lead Acid Battery" serves as a 'low impedance load for >the electrical system' and also a 'medium impedence source for current >when the 'Alternator/ Generator' is not supplying power. See the above, Chuck. I realized I left out that important use but it is NOT for running all the accessories. When the alternator is running, the automotive voltage regulator (not to be confused with a real voltage regulator as used in electronics) isolates the battery from accessories in the car. -- Ray > See the above, Chuck. I realized I left out that important use but > it is NOT for running all the accessories. When the alternator is > running, the automotive voltage regulator (not to be confused with a > real voltage regulator as used in electronics) isolates the battery > from accessories in the car. WHAT ???? Will yo then claim, that the whole eletronic circuit of the car is detached from the battery, when the car is running ? Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:28:44 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> See the above, Chuck. I realized I left out that important use but >> it is NOT for running all the accessories. When the alternator is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Will yo then claim, that the whole eletronic circuit of the car is >detached from the battery, when the car is running ? Not at all. Go back and read what I wrote. -- Ray > Not at all. Okay > Go back and read what I wrote. I still read it as I understood it. Can you rephrase ? Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:52:52 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> Not at all. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I still read it as I understood it. Can you rephrase ? Sure. When a car is started, the battery supplies voltage for turning over the engine and also to the stator coils on the alternator. It does this via the voltage regulator on a car, not to be confused with the kind of regulator we've been discussing on a DC power supply. Once the engine is running, the voltage regulator does other things. In a car, when the alternator is supplying 13.8 volts, that is what is supplied to the lights, radio and so forth. The battery is a reserve power source, trickle charging merrily and supplying the stator voltage to the alternator. As long as the alternator is working, the battery is not being used for more than the stator windings. If the belt should break, as it has on a few occasions worldwide, the battery will power the car for a short while. In a car, the voltage regulator keeps the current flow from the source of the highest capacity. That's another reason for the 13.8 volts of the charge circuit versus the 12 volts of a battery. As long as the charge voltage is adequate, the regulator uses that to power all the auto accessories and lights. -- Ray > In a car, when the alternator is supplying 13.8 volts, that is what > is supplied to the lights, radio and so forth. The battery is a > reserve power source, trickle charging merrily and supplying the > stator voltage to the alternator. And working as the filter capacitor in a normal powersupply. > As long as the alternator is > working, the battery is not being used for more than the stator > windings. It depends. Many older cars does not have high enough output from the alternator when the engine is at idle speed. > If the belt should break, as it has on a few occasions > worldwide, the battery will power the car for a short while. Yes, a few hours. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:58:17 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> In a car, when the alternator is supplying 13.8 volts, that is what >> is supplied to the lights, radio and so forth. The battery is a >> reserve power source, trickle charging merrily and supplying the >> stator voltage to the alternator. > >And working as the filter capacitor in a normal powersupply. It's a different kind of regulator. It's really misnamed. Normally they're mechanical relays inside of a sealed unit with the ability to switch high currents nearly instantly. They're nothing at all like regulators in power supplies. That regulator is normally built into the alternator inside the rectifier circuitry. In modern computerized autos, they're most often solid state switches. -- Ray > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:58:17 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > into the alternator inside the rectifier circuitry. In modern > computerized autos, they're most often solid state switches. What component in a car's wiring do you imagine isolates the battery from everything downstream of the regulator??? > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:52:52 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > reserve power source, trickle charging merrily and supplying the > stator voltage to the alternator. Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high enough, the 'Battery' may be removed --- WITHOUT killing the engine. > As long as the alternator is > working, the battery is not being used for more than the stator > windings. If the belt should break, as it has on a few occasions > worldwide, the battery will power the car for a short while. Depending on the car, hours to days. > In a car, the voltage regulator keeps the current flow from the > source of the highest capacity. That's another reason for the 13.8 > volts of the charge circuit versus the 12 volts of a battery. As > long as the charge voltage is adequate, the regulator uses that to > power all the auto accessories and lights. Just where is this 'Magical Switch' circuitry or relay. there isn't anything like this available in any of the 'Voltage Regulator' circuits that I have ever worked with. Chuck D. > -- > Ray > > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:52:52 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > -- > > Ray The "magical switch" is 4 diodes (or more) used both to rectify the alternator's output and to stop the battery-alternator-battery discharge loop. Beyond that, the battery and internal resistances are the voltage regulator. (check the voltages at different rpms without the battery in circuit ! =8^O) snip > The "magical switch" is 4 diodes (or more) used both to rectify the > alternator's output and to stop the battery-alternator-battery discharge > loop. Most (if not all) of the automotive alternators that I've seen are 3 phase units, needing 6 diodes to convert to DC.[4 diodes would work quite well for a 2 phase unit.] The feed/ connection for the 'Stator (Field) control circuitry' being after these diodes (the same connection point as what goes to the battery), the diodes only prevent reverse current flow through the armature windings, nothing else. Chuck D. > Beyond that, the battery and internal resistances are the voltage > regulator. (check the voltages at different rpms without the battery in > circuit ! =8^O) >> On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:52:52 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" >> and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high >enough, the 'Battery' may be removed --- WITHOUT killing the engine. Without a battery, the stator is not powered. > > As long as the alternator is >> working, the battery is not being used for more than the stator >> windings. If the belt should break, as it has on a few occasions >> worldwide, the battery will power the car for a short while. >> >Depending on the car, hours to days. That's a short while. >> In a car, the voltage regulator keeps the current flow from the >> source of the highest capacity. That's another reason for the 13.8 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >anything like this available in any of the 'Voltage Regulator' circuits >that I have ever worked with. Get real. It should be in the engine compartment. Depending on the car, it may also be under the dash. -- Ray > >> On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:52:52 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > >> and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Without a battery, the stator is not powered. Spooky!!! > > > As long as the alternator is > >> working, the battery is not being used for more than the stator [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's a short while. Your cited battery data said that batteries at 13.8 volts will drop to 13.2 volts in a short time - that's days!?! > >> In a car, the voltage regulator keeps the current flow from the > >> source of the highest capacity. That's another reason for the 13.8 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Ray >Your cited battery data said that batteries at 13.8 volts will drop to >13.2 volts in a short time - that's days!?! I never cited any battery data. Also, I have never stated and never will state that a 12 volt lead-acid battery will ever reach a charge potential above 12 volts by any significant amount. You must be thinking of someone else. -- Ray >>Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the >>FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high >>enough, the 'Battery' may be removed --- WITHOUT killing the engine. > > Without a battery, the stator is not powered. Right!!! And I'm just hallucinating about the engine still operating. Nice to be told that after all these years. >>>As long as the alternator is >>>working, the battery is not being used for more than the stator [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's a short while. Yup, strictly a matter of interpretation of 'short'. >>>In a car, the voltage regulator keeps the current flow from the >>>source of the highest capacity. That's another reason for the 13.8 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Get real. It should be in the engine compartment. Depending on the > car, it may also be under the dash. Come on now Ray, SHOULD, doesn't cut it. It's easy to say 'Should' and then blame the other person for not being able to find something. If it's there, what are we to look for, a relay?, a circuit board with diodes and other components? I'd really like to know just what this nebulous thing should be made up of. Chuck D. > -- > Ray >>>Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the >>>FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >diodes and other components? I'd really like to know just what this >nebulous thing should be made up of. Give it a rest, mate. Go look in your shop manual. Ok? Get back to me when you can help yourself. Are you still in diapers or something? Do you need this much help eating your din-din? -- Ray >>>>Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the >>>>FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > -- > Ray Well gee, you can't tell me what to look for??? Why am I not surprised!!! [Because there ain't no such thing there!!! Chuck D. >>>>>Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the >>>>>FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >Why am I not surprised!!! [Because there ain't no such thing there!!! Good grief, Charles. What kind of moron asks a question like this about something I cannot possibly see? That's a bit like asking you to tell me where my barbecue is standing when you have no idea what my house looks like. I'm sure you believe in barbecues so there shouldn't be any question of fact about that. Your voltage regulator may be in the engine compartment on your car. It may be under the dashboard. It could be part of your car computer. The fact that it exists doesn't mean that you automatically know about it, Charles. After all, do you know what an FPGA is? They exist but I doubt you could find any of the 30 or so that are more than likely scattered around your house at this very moment. -- Ray >>>>>>Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the >>>>>>FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>>>>>>In a car, the voltage regulator keeps the current flow from the >>>>>>>source of the highest capacity. "Capacity", I think you are referring to Voltage. [Nothing else would make sense. >>>>>>> That's another reason for the 13.8 >>>>>>>volts of the charge circuit versus the 12 volts of a battery. As >>>>>>>long as the charge voltage is adequate, the regulator uses that to >>>>>>>power all the auto accessories and lights. The 'Regulator" (voltage regulation circuitry of the alternator circuit.) doesn't have anything to do with 'powering accessories and lights', it is only concerned with allowing the necessary current to flow in the 'field windings' to maintain the desired 'output wattage' from the alternator. NOTHING ELSE. The following exchange shows that you couldn't see the 'forest for the trees' (U.S. idiom) -- I.E. there is no 'Magical Switch' which is why Ray couldn't tell me where to find it. >>>>>>Just where is this 'Magical Switch' circuitry or relay. there isn't >>>>>>anything like this available in any of the 'Voltage Regulator' circuits [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > automatically know about it, Charles. After all, do you know what an > FPGA is? Sorry Ray, I do know of what you speak of. > They exist but I doubt you could find any of the 30 or so > that are more than likely scattered around your house at this very > moment. I lead a rather circumspect life, so if you exclude the many dead PCs that I have, you would be hard pressed to find more than about a dozen if that many. Chuck D. > -- > Ray >>>>>>>Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the >>>>>>>FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >"Capacity", I think you are referring to Voltage. [Nothing else would >make sense. Nope. Highest capacity is right. I don't have to make sense to you. >>>>>>>> That's another reason for the 13.8 >>>>>>>>volts of the charge circuit versus the 12 volts of a battery. As [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >flow in the 'field windings' to maintain the desired 'output wattage' >from the alternator. NOTHING ELSE. In a car, it's both a regulator and a switch. Automatic. You don't have to go and look for the On/Off thingie. Ok? >The following exchange shows that you couldn't see the 'forest for the >trees' (U.S. idiom) -- I.E. there is no 'Magical Switch' which is why >Ray couldn't tell me where to find it. Well, trying to explain how a refrigerator works to a buffalo is just as hard as trying to explain to you how an automotive voltage regulator works. Can't be done. No worries. Even if you knew all about it and I gave you a roadmap, you'd not find it. >>>>>>>Just where is this 'Magical Switch' circuitry or relay. there isn't >>>>>>>anything like this available in any of the 'Voltage Regulator' circuits [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Sorry Ray, I do know of what you speak of. Clearly. Don't worry. Tis all magical. Magic is how everything works. Don't break the side of your car battery or the magic will leak out. >> They exist but I doubt you could find any of the 30 or so >> that are more than likely scattered around your house at this very [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that I have, you would be hard pressed to find more than about a dozen >if that many. Your TV, DVD player, VCR, furnace thermostat, all of your remotes, your stereo, your refrigerator, your DCC encoder, your air conditioner controller . . . I could go on. -- Ray >>>>>>>>Nope, the 'stator' current comes from whatever is available. Witness the >>>>>>>>FACT, that once a car is started, IF the RPM of the engine is high [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Nope. Highest capacity is right. I don't have to make sense to you. O.K., You say capacity is the correct term. What is the measurement unit for that capacity? >>>>>>>>>That's another reason for the 13.8 >>>>>>>>>volts of the charge circuit versus the 12 volts of a battery. As [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > In a car, it's both a regulator and a switch. O.K., What's YOUR definition of a 'switch'? Physical disconnect?, or 'High Impedance but still connected?, or possibly something else? > Automatic. You don't > have to go and look for the On/Off thingie. Ok? I won't bother, till you describe something that could possibly be there to find. Ok? >>The following exchange shows that you couldn't see the 'forest for the >>trees' (U.S. idiom) -- I.E. there is no 'Magical Switch' which is why [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > regulator works. Can't be done. No worries. Even if you knew all > about it and I gave you a roadmap, you'd not find it. You don't need to explain something that basic! Either the "Old way" (electro-mechanical), or the present day (Self regulated Alternator). >>>>>>>>Just where is this 'Magical Switch' circuitry or relay. there isn't >>>>>>>>anything like this available in any of the 'Voltage Regulator' circuits [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > works. Don't break the side of your car battery or the magic will > leak out. ROFLMAO Good one Ray, you do have a sense of humor after all!! >>>They exist but I doubt you could find any of the 30 or so >>>that are more than likely scattered around your house at this very [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Your TV (1) > , DVD player, Ok, forgot that one (2) > VCR, Forgot that one too (3) > furnace thermostat, (4) > all of your remotes, (5) + I forgot one (6) > your stereo, (7) your refrigerator, (8) your DCC encoder, Don't have any > your air conditioner controller Nope, Window units use a thermocouple tube > and . . . Kitchen range (cook stove) maybe (9), Clothes dryer maybe (10), dead cell-phone (11), 2 cordless phones (+4=15) > I could go on. Please do, since we've now covered all my 'Hi Tech' household possession. Yeah 15 IS more than a dozen, but still in the ballpark, and I have included some things that probably don't have FPGAs in them. Maybe we should be sure that I'm understanding your use of FPGA correctly. I understood FPGA to be Field programmable Grid Arrays. Chuck D. > -- > Ray >O.K., You say capacity is the correct term. What is the measurement unit >for that capacity? Give it a rest. Go study something else. -- Ray >>O.K., You say capacity is the correct term. What is the measurement unit >>for that capacity? > > Give it a rest. Go study something else. > -- > Ray What's this?? FOG instead of a useful answer? Chuck D. >>>O.K., You say capacity is the correct term. What is the measurement unit >>>for that capacity? >> >> Give it a rest. Go study something else. > >What's this?? FOG instead of a useful answer? It's pretty clear that you have no idea of the subject so why bother. Go pester someone else for a while. I'm truly done with you. -- Ray On 12/29/2007 7:19 AM Charles Davis spake thus: > Maybe we should be sure that I'm understanding your use of FPGA > correctly. I understood FPGA to be Field programmable Grid Arrays. Field-programmable *gate* arrays. Dunno what a "grid" would be in this context. > On 12/29/2007 7:19 AM Charles Davis spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Field-programmable *gate* arrays. Dunno what a "grid" would be in this > context. Yeah, that does in fact make more sense. I was in fact puzzled at the time, having been thinking FPLAs, and realizing that wasn't what Ray had said. [FPLAs being Field Programmable Logic Arrays -- Useful in prototype electronics, usually being replaced by 'custom chips' for production (consumer) units.] Chuck D. > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:52:52 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > working, the battery is not being used for more than the stator > windings. The battery is wired directly into the secondary side of the automobile's electrical circuit. If any part of the circuit beyond the alternator/regulator is at 13.8 volts then the battery is at 13.8 volts. (give or take the fractional voltages caused by resistances within the wiring) After starting, the battery could be down as low as 10.5 volts. The rest of the secondary side circuitry will also be down at battery voltage because there is nothing in normal car wiring that disconnects the battery. > If the belt should break, as it has on a few occasions > worldwide, the battery will power the car for a short while. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > long as the charge voltage is adequate, the regulator uses that to > power all the auto accessories and lights. There is _nothing_ in normal car wiring that seperates the battery from anything but the alternator - therefore _all_ wiring beyond the regulator is at battery voltage. (ignoring subsequent voltage regulation for electronic equipment and the small internal resistances of the battery and wiring. Greg.P. > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:28:44 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.k...@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > -- > Ray ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I see that this topic is still CURRENT! <g> Bill > > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:28:44 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.k...@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Bill It's quite a DRAIN! >>>>I may well be an idiot, (I'm answering you afterall) but why is it the >>>>"laboratory (style) power supplies" I can buy from electronics chains [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > Ray Not in any of the cars that I have had over the years Ray. Unless you are saying that by supplying all the power need to operate the car, AND some extra to charge the battery, there is some magical "Firewall" between those parts of the system. Chuck > On 12/22/2007 12:01 AM Ray Haddad spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > You just don't know what you're talking about (no surprise there for a > blowhard). There _are_ regulated power supplies out there. However the act of regulating requires heat sinking which is difficult to arrange in a small sealed black plastic box. Unless the item to be powered has a very small current draw, or unless it has for some reason to be smaller than the power supply, the regulation will normally be in the powered appliance. I have old portable computer P/Ss that have the regulation in the P/S. Regards, Greg.P. > On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:55:37 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > Well, I can make it on topic easy enough. I believe I'll use that > new PC to automate my trains. There. On topic now. I've used computers and PCs for layout operation for years. > > In some regulator circuits, a meter is enough of a load. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Klaus 13.8 volts isn't the voltage of an automotive battery charger, it is the maximum voltage an automotive battery will hold. An (decent) automotive battery charger is normally several volts higher. (circa 16 volts DC) >13.8 volts isn't the voltage of an automotive battery charger, it is the >maximum voltage an automotive battery will hold. Go and measure you car battery. It's only 12 volts. If your charger didn't output 13.8 volts or more, it would discharge the battery. That's the nature of lead-acid batteries. No kidding, Greg. I'm really trying to educate you here. Just accept it for now and verify it when you get a chance. Ask a lead-acid battery manufacturer. Go to Jaycar or your local battery shop. Anywhere at all except inside your own head. -- Ray > >13.8 volts isn't the voltage of an automotive battery charger, it is the > >maximum voltage an automotive battery will hold. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Ray Perhaps Australian batteries have a lower voltage than the rest of the world. BTW - I started in electronics at much the same time you did, built mr controllers in the 1960s, first computer from Electronics Australia 1978/9, electric cars mid 1970s ... Regards, Greg.P. >> >13.8 volts isn't the voltage of an automotive battery charger, it is the >> >maximum voltage an automotive battery will hold. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Perhaps Australian batteries have a lower voltage than the rest of the >world. Lead-acid batteries are 2 volts per cell. World wide. Go measure yours again without the car running. >BTW - I started in electronics at much the same time you did, built mr >controllers in the 1960s, first computer from Electronics Australia >1978/9, electric cars mid 1970s ... Definitely not the same as I did, Greg. If so, you'd know about lead-acid batteries, chargers and power supplies. -- Ray >> Perhaps Australian batteries have a lower voltage than the rest of the >> world. > > Lead-acid batteries are 2 volts per cell. World wide. Go measure > yours again without the car running. well, I just measured 4 Australian batteries with 3 different meters, and all measurements were at least 12.5 volts - which is as I would expect from the basic electrochemistry of lead-acid cells. Tell me, Ray, what do YOU think the exact potential is across a standard individual lead-acid cell? Are you trying to tell us it is exactly 2.00 volts? You might like to look at some actual data at http://www.buchanan1.net/lead_acid.shtml although you probably wouldn't like to, because it would show you the facts. On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:11:22 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> instead replied: >>> Perhaps Australian batteries have a lower voltage than the rest of the >>> world. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and all measurements were at least 12.5 volts - which is as I would >expect from the basic electrochemistry of lead-acid cells. Yes? And? >Tell me, Ray, what do YOU think the exact potential is across a standard >individual lead-acid cell? Are you trying to tell us it is exactly 2.00 >volts? I'm not going to quibble over a half volt. I'll leave that to the rivet counters out there. The battery is still a 12 volt battery not a 13.8 volt battery. That's close enough. If you want to continue this, go right ahead. >You might like to look at some actual data at >http://www.buchanan1.net/lead_acid.shtml >although you probably wouldn't like to, because it would show you the facts. I'm right. You're right. So what? The point is already lost. There is no such thing as a 13.8 volt lead-acid battery. The difference of half volt variance is silly to argue over. But do press on if it amuses you. Greg will be along to huff and puff and pretend he never stated his batteries were all 13.8 volts. -- Ray > On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:11:22 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > -- > Ray "_All_" is irrelevant! Where electronics (or Tortoises running too fast) are concerned, the _maximum_ voltage likely to be met is the relevant figure. I know you have to disprove everything I say, Ray, but this is getting well out of hand. Regards, Greg.P. >> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:11:22 +1100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" >> and Eddie Oliver <eoliverNONSENSE@DOWNWITHSPAMiprimus.com.au> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Where electronics (or Tortoises running too fast) are concerned, the >_maximum_ voltage likely to be met is the relevant figure. None of them are, Greg. >I know you have to disprove everything I say, Ray, but this is getting >well out of hand. Not everything. Just the wrong stuff. Oh. Wait. -- Ray > Perhaps Australian batteries have a lower voltage than the rest of the > world. Ozzies running with a few dead cells, eh? SignatureSteve > 13.8 volts isn't the voltage of an automotive battery charger, it is the > maximum voltage an automotive battery will hold. No........ Definitly not Did you read the link I gave you, Im happy to give it to you again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery After full charge the terminal voltage will drop quickly to 13.2 V and then slowly to 12.6 V. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... > > 13.8 volts isn't the voltage of an automotive battery charger, it is the > > maximum voltage an automotive battery will hold. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > After full charge the terminal voltage will drop quickly to 13.2 V and > then slowly to 12.6 V. You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? 13.8 volts is the level an automotive battery will charge to. 13.2 volts is the voltage it will "quickly" drop to. 12.6 volts is the voltage it will eventually settle to. The definition of "quickly" and "eventually" will depend upon the age, sulfation and acid percentage, but one could carry the new fully charged battery home from the garage, have tea and then connect it to the layout and still find a voltage between 13.8 and 13.2 volts. The following week, without use it will be at 12.6 volts. If one were to place a 12v car battery between a low amp battery charger and one's rheostat controller, a setup as has often been used in the past, there would be 13.8 volts on the track. 13.8 volts is the _maximum_ but it is the maximum working voltage of an automotive battery. Regards, Greg.P. > You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? Wouod yo be so kind to ponit me to a data sheet showing tha at lead-acid battey has a nominal voltage of 13,8 volt at full charge. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:20:27 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead replied: >> You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? > >Wouod yo be so kind to ponit me to a data sheet showing tha at lead-acid >battey has a nominal voltage of 13,8 volt at full charge. I wasn't going to push him for a reference, Klaus. Cornered beasts can be deadly. As long as he doesn't have to prove anything, he's harmless. -- Ray > > You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? > > Wouod yo be so kind to ponit me to a data sheet showing tha at lead-acid > battey has a nominal voltage of 13,8 volt at full charge. > > Klaus Google 13.8 volts along with Lead Acid and you'll be swamped with information. >> > You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Google 13.8 volts along with Lead Acid and you'll be swamped with >information. Mostly wrong. Is that your primary source? Wrong information? -- Ray > >> > You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Mostly wrong. LOL - my sources are wrong and your sources are right! Is that your primary source? Wrong information? My primary sources are battery manufacturer's data sheets collected during the 1970s when I was building electric cars. Greg.P. NZ >> >> > You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >My primary sources are battery manufacturer's data sheets collected >during the 1970s when I was building electric cars. And none of them will define the output voltage at 13.8 volts. That's the recommended charge voltage, not the battery nominal voltage. My sources are indeed right and if you found any that stated a battery is 13.8 volts, they'd be dead wrong. -- Ray > Google 13.8 volts along with Lead Acid and you'll be swamped with > information. I did: <http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=13.8+volts++Lead+Acid&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8gni ng&meta=> And what came up? Chargers...... I'll ask again: Coud you please point me to a datasheet showing the nominal voltage of a normal lead-acid battery beeing 13,8 volt ? Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... > > Google 13.8 volts along with Lead Acid and you'll be swamped with > > information. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I'll ask again: Coud you please point me to a datasheet showing the > nominal voltage of a normal lead-acid battery beeing 13,8 volt ? Yes Klaus, the _operating range of a 12 volt lead acid battery is up to 13.8 volts - that's the maximum voltage it will hold. _Nominal_ voltage is 12 volts, but a newly charged battery will supply 13.8 volts (13.6-13.8 volts) to a model railway. That's how it has been since 12 volt car batteries have been fitted to automobiles. "nominal voltage" is what the layout will normally see, but any voltage sensitive equipment will initially see 13.8 volts. Any layout operated by a small battery charger charging a car battery, as was quite often used when HO models were standardized, will provide 13.8 volts to the layout. http://sealake.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008802449598/pdtl/Sealed-lead- acid/8816217775/12V100Ah-Nominal-Capacity-Rechargeable-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery. htm http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/feb2003/sept99_chargemonitor.pdf >> > Google 13.8 volts along with Lead Acid and you'll be swamped with >> > information. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >http://sealake.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008802449598/pdtl/Sealed-lead- acid/8816217775/12V100Ah-Nominal-Capacity-Rechargeable-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery. htm >http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/feb2003/sept99_chargemonitor.pdf Take remedial reading. Greg. Both of those articles agree with me. A 12 volt battery has a nominal voltage of 12 volts. Not 13.8 volts. A charger is recommended at a minimum of 10% over which happens to be 13.2 volts so their recommendation of 15% over is well within my minimum. -- Ray > >> > Google 13.8 volts along with Lead Acid and you'll be swamped with > >> > information. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > recommended at a minimum of 10% over which happens to be 13.2 volts > so their recommendation of 15% over is well within my minimum. Ray, a 12 volt lead-acid battery will charge to 13.8 volts and retain that voltage for a period of time. One can draw sufficient current from said battery to run a average model railway locomotive without the voltage dropping noticably. If one uses a small trickle charger with a car battery to provide power for a layout (common 1930s-1960s) then one's layout will be operated at 13.8 volts smooth DC. Regards, Greg.P. >Ray, a 12 volt lead-acid battery will charge to 13.8 volts and retain >that voltage for a period of time. No. It won't. -- Ray > >Ray, a 12 volt lead-acid battery will charge to 13.8 volts and retain > >that voltage for a period of time. > > No. It won't. It's time you bought a new battery! On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus: >> >Ray, a 12 volt lead-acid battery will charge to 13.8 volts and retain >> >that voltage for a period of time. >> >> No. It won't. > > It's time you bought a new battery! Now, Greg, you've been following my recent battle with Ray here, so you know I'm not one of his fans. He's basically a snot, and one who will never admit he's wrong. But the fact is that you are spectacularly wrong here, and are apparently competing with Ray for Snot of the Year. Lead-acid batteries produce about 2 volts per cell. A 12-volt battery is as close to 12 volts as no never mind. (I measured mine and it was 12.5 volts.) Not 13.8 volts. Time for *you* to admit you're wrong here. > On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Not 13.8 volts. Time for *you* to admit you're wrong here. Perhaps you're not reading what I'm writing? eg: A 13.8 volt battery charged to 13.8 volts will be at 13.8 volts. and: A nominal 12 volt battery in series with an alternator/generator/trickle charger will be at 13.8 volts ... The point, winding back to the original question, is that the "12 volts DC" of model railways can be as high as 13.8 volts because ... I doubt that there are any model railway components that are designed to cope with 12 volts DC that can't cope with 13.8 volts DC. I don't want to compete for the 'Snot of the Year' prize, but from the perspective of the above context I don't see that "admitting I'm wrong" would serve any useful purpose. Regards, Greg.P. >> On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >eg: A 13.8 volt battery charged to 13.8 volts will be at 13.8 volts. There's no such animal, Greg. -- Ray > On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Not 13.8 volts. Time for *you* to admit you're wrong here. Well David, you seem to be trying to follow Ray's lead here. You didn't say what sort of vehicle you measured on, but the recent U.S. models, all have a fair amount of constantly connected electronics.* Which will rapidly drain the 13.8 V level down to 13, or 12.5 depending on the time interval since last charge cycle. * Electric Clock -- minimal drain, Radio --- memory for station presets (the push button station selection.), and other weird and wonderful 'Bells & Whistles' that 'Marketing has convinced people they just HAVE to have. Chuck D. On 12/23/2007 4:16 PM Charles Davis spake thus: >> On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Well David, you seem to be trying to follow Ray's lead here. Gawd, I hope not! > You didn't say what sort of vehicle you measured on, but the recent U.S. > models, all have a fair amount of constantly connected electronics.* [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 'Bells & Whistles' that 'Marketing has convinced people they just HAVE > to have. Hah. Mine's an '87 Toyota van, and even if it did have anything that would drain the battery it doesn't matter since I disconnect the battery as an anti-theft measure. 12 volt batteries don't get up to 13.8 volts, sorry. > On 12/23/2007 4:16 PM Charles Davis spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > 12 volt batteries don't get up to 13.8 volts, sorry. Ah, but they do. My '87 Ford F250, while running down the road, will 'float out' at 14 or 14.5 After siting for a while 10 or 20 minutes, the 'voltmeter' reads close to 14 before the starter kicks in. Of course that's an OEM automotive dashboard gauge. Which I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of. Chuck D. On 12/23/2007 5:50 PM Charles Davis spake thus: >> On 12/23/2007 4:16 PM Charles Davis spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Of course that's an OEM automotive dashboard gauge. Which I wouldn't > guarantee the accuracy of. I'd be curious to see what a decent multimeter makes of the actual voltage of that battery. And by "sitting", you mean engine turned off, right? > I'd be curious to see what a decent multimeter makes of the actual > voltage of that battery. And by "sitting", you mean engine turned off, > right? Probably with the engine running and the battery being charged. SignatureVenlig hilsen Erik Olsen http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/ >>I'd be curious to see what a decent multimeter makes of the actual >>voltage of that battery. And by "sitting", you mean engine turned off, >>right? > > Probably with the engine running and the battery being charged. Nope! "Sitting" = Engine off, no accessories in use, only drain on battery --- 'chemical "self discharge" (What drains a 'charged battery' over long periods of time.) Chuck D. > On 12/23/2007 5:50 PM Charles Davis spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > voltage of that battery. And by "sitting", you mean engine turned off, > right? Yup!! In the past, when I have been using a 'decent' multimeter on the electrical system, I haven't noticed any great (or even consistent 'minor' differences. Just the difference you would expect comparing readings on a 'multimeter' with a 90deg full range for 15 volts scale, with a dashboard 10 degree for 16 volt scale.) Chuck D. >> On 12/23/2007 4:16 PM Charles Davis spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >'float out' at 14 or 14.5 After siting for a while 10 or 20 minutes, >the 'voltmeter' reads close to 14 before the starter kicks in. Impossible. Just not true. >Of course that's an OEM automotive dashboard gauge. Which I wouldn't >guarantee the accuracy of. LOL. -- Ray >> Ray, a 12 volt lead-acid battery will charge to 13.8 volts and retain >> that voltage for a period of time. > > No. It won't. The steady state voltage of a charged battery is that produced by the electrochemical activities in the individual cells, which create a stable voltage (for a given temperature). That stable voltage per cell is of the order of 2.1 volts, giving 12.6 volts for 6 cells in series - which is why one measures about 12.6V by applying a meter across the terminals without other loads. It isn't 12 volts or 13.8 volts, it is what the laws of physics and chemistry require it to be. However when the system is NOT steady state, a range of outcomes is observable. The wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery covers some of these situations apparently fairly accurately. > However when the system is NOT steady state, a range of outcomes is > observable Yeah, well, how do you know what it's doing when you're not looking? SignatureErwins Felix On 12/23/2007 11:59 PM Steve Caple spake thus: >> However when the system is NOT steady state, a range of outcomes is >> observable > > Yeah, well, how do you know what it's doing when you're not looking? ... like that goddamned light in the refrigerator: how do you *know* it goes out when you close the door? (That's my poor man's explanation of the Schrödinger paradox). > ... like that goddamned light in the refrigerator: how do you *know* > it goes out when you close the door? (That's my poor man's > explanation of the Schrödinger paradox). But it is possible to observe if the light in the refrigerator does not go out, allthough indirectly. We recently had one with a defect door so that the door contact was not activated, hence the light was on all time. This caused the temperature around the lamp to raise enough to make some food items go bad too early, whereas the overall temperature was still kept by the thermostatic control. SignatureVenlig hilsen Erik Olsen http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/ > On 12/23/2007 11:59 PM Steve Caple spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > goes out when you close the door? (That's my poor man's explanation of > the Schr?dinger paradox). You mean it's forbidden to just push in the door switch plunger? Or slip oin one of those mini-camera cables SWAT outfits use? SignatureSteve On 12/24/2007 12:35 PM Steve Caple spake thus: >> On 12/23/2007 11:59 PM Steve Caple spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You mean it's forbidden to just push in the door switch plunger? Or slip > oin one of those mini-camera cables SWAT outfits use? No, of course not, but you know about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, right? The one that says that any attempt at measurement interferes with the phenomonon being measured? (At least that's my dumb-a.s layman's take on it.) So how can you ever *really* be sure that the light is out when the door is closed? > On 12/24/2007 12:35 PM Steve Caple spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > dumb-a.s layman's take on it.) So how can you ever *really* be sure that > the light is out when the door is closed? Faith, me lad, sure an begorra, just believe! SignatureSteve http://sealake.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008802449598/pdtl/Sealed-lead- acid/8816217775/12V100Ah-Nominal-Capacity-Rechargeable-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery. htm > http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/feb2003/sept99_chargemonitor.pdf Both links shows that at constant charger should not be higher than 13,8 volts. None of your links is showing the actual voltage of the battery without a charger. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... > http://sealake.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008802449598/pdtl/Sealed-lead- acid/8816217775/12V100Ah-Nominal-Capacity-Rechargeable-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery. htm > > http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/feb2003/sept99_chargemonitor.pdf > > Both links shows that at constant charger should not be higher than 13,8 > volts. Quote from first reference: "Control voltage: constant voltage 14.5V to 14.9V (per 12V cell 25 degrees Celsius) Float: control voltage: 13.6 to 13.8V (per 12V cell 25 degrees Celsius)" > None of your links is showing the actual voltage of the battery > without a charger. If one charges a battery to 13.8 volts it will be at 13.8 volts. >If one charges a battery to 13.8 volts it will be at 13.8 volts. Never. -- Ray > >If one charges a battery to 13.8 volts it will be at 13.8 volts. > > Never. How precise/pedantic are we being? On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus: >> >If one charges a battery to 13.8 volts it will be at 13.8 volts. >> >> Never. > > How precise/pedantic are we being? Greg, do us a favor: go out right now (well, assuming it's light outside) and measure your car's battery voltage. Measure a couple if you have more than one. Report your findings back here. > On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > outside) and measure your car's battery voltage. Measure a couple if you > have more than one. Report your findings back here. David, read the line which I have requoted below: "If one charges a battery to 13.8 volts it will be at 13.8 volts." Now before you start with the ifs and buts, think about it. Yes, 24 hours later it will have dropped in voltage to something like 12.5 volts, depending on a whole list of factors; temperature, acid level, ... but it will, if charged to 13.8 volts, stand at 13.8 volts for some time. THAT is the voltage any electrical equipment attached to the battery must be able to withstand. If you take _your_ battery from your car and power your model railway with it, the voltage available will start at 12.5 volts - not 12 volts - and slowly drop to about 10.5 volts as your train goes round and round. You should have stopped it at 10.8 volts to avoid damaging your battery. 12.5 + 10.5 / 2 = 11.5 volts. You really should get a new stick on label printed for your battery "Exide 11.5 volt battery" rather than the only correct for an instant "Exide 12 volt Battery". (or a whole series of labels with different voltages so you can strip them off one after the other to match the 'Truth in Advertising' requirements) The safe operating range of a 12 volt car battery is 13.8 - 10.8 volts and the circuit in the car should hold it in a range close at or near to or below 13.8 volts. It's fun arguing with Ray because he seems to have it in for me, but I'd rather real people like you kept the context in mind when getting involved. Regards, Greg.P. >It's fun arguing with Ray because he seems to have it in for me, but I'd >rather real people like you kept the context in mind when getting >involved. I don't have it in for you at all, Greg. I feel that there is a need for folk like you who are always wrong. Someday, you will suffer the fate of most Darwin Award winners and do yourself some real harm with all of your wacky notions. A 12 volt battery will never be at a 13.8 volt potential. Can't happen. Not now or ever. -- Ray > >It's fun arguing with Ray because he seems to have it in for me, but I'd > >rather real people like you kept the context in mind when getting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > A 12 volt battery will never be at a 13.8 volt potential. Can't > happen. Not now or ever. Even though I cited a manufacturer's data page on their lead acid batteries floating at up to 13.8 volts? Yeah - well, what do the manufacturers know!?! Regards, Greg.P. >> >It's fun arguing with Ray because he seems to have it in for me, but I'd >> >rather real people like you kept the context in mind when getting [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Even though I cited a manufacturer's data page on their lead acid >batteries floating at up to 13.8 volts? The nominal voltage is the one you want. >Yeah - well, what do the manufacturers know!?! Greg, do you know what that means? Clearly not. I'll try to explain. That rating means that the battery charge voltage may be floated to 13.8 volts safely for long periods of time for keeping the battery charged. It doesn't mean that the battery itself will ever maintain a potential of 13.8 volts all by itself without an external charger being applied. 12 volt lead-acid batteries under charge do not limit the voltage to 12 volts in the overall circuit when external potential is applied. That's what the "floating" voltage means. You seem bent on dying in this ditch today, Greg. Press on. -- Ray > >> >It's fun arguing with Ray because he seems to have it in for me, but I'd > >> >rather real people like you kept the context in mind when getting [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The nominal voltage is the one you want. So all the other factual data is meaningless and irrelevant??? I guess they had to fill the page with something? > >Yeah - well, what do the manufacturers know!?! > > Greg, do you know what that means? Clearly not. I'll try to explain. > That rating means that the battery charge voltage may be floated to > 13.8 volts safely for long periods of time for keeping the battery > charged. Go read it again - they said 14.2-14.5 volts. > It doesn't mean that the battery itself will ever maintain > a potential of 13.8 volts all by itself without an external charger > being applied. Well, a small change of tack here - I originally stated that a commonly used circuit for operating a model railway (1930s-60s) was a trickle charger and an automotive battery - giving 13.8 volts. <sheesh> With any electrical/electronics circuit, the _maximum_ voltage is important. > 12 volt lead-acid batteries under charge do not limit > the voltage to 12 volts in the overall circuit when external > potential is applied. That's what the "floating" voltage means. > > You seem bent on dying in this ditch today, Greg. Press on. I'm on my 2nd-10th time round with every point - I've given you a manufacturer's cite, I've pointed out your mistakes and flawed thinking. I'm a practical person rather than an theoretical engineer and I know I make the occassional mistake, but you're talking a load of bollocks. The figure that counts is not the nominal voltage, the average voltage, the mean voltage, the minimum voltage, the charging voltage or the static voltage - we were discussing the _maximum_ voltage that could be seen on a model railway from a supply containing an automotive battery at the time when "12 volts DC" was set as the norm (by the NMRA) In an automotive or model railway situation the voltage at the battery terminals and the attached loads cannot be higher than the terminal voltage - the difference between generator/alternator/charger output and battery terminal voltage _MUST_ be lost in the resistance of the circuit. Voltages above 13.8 volts applied to battery terminals will result in high currents which will cause out-gassing and heating of battery plates with consequent distortion and probable destruction of the cells - but what do _I_ know. Regards and a Merry Christmas to all! Greg.P. >> >> >It's fun arguing with Ray because he seems to have it in for me, but I'd >> >> >rather real people like you kept the context in mind when getting [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >So all the other factual data is meaningless and irrelevant??? I guess >they had to fill the page with something? It all has its uses, Greg, but not as you believe. >> >Yeah - well, what do the manufacturers know!?! >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Go read it again - they said 14.2-14.5 volts. Greg, that's a theoretical maximum and the 13.8 volt charge limit has become a defacto standard. This is a red herring here. The battery itself will not go over 12 volts. You clearly stated that the voltage on train power supplies was 13.8 volts because that is what a battery is. It's not. Quit trying to rearrange your own claim. It's very dishonest, Greg. >> It doesn't mean that the battery itself will ever maintain >> a potential of 13.8 volts all by itself without an external charger [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >used circuit for operating a model railway (1930s-60s) was a trickle >charger and an automotive battery - giving 13.8 volts. For CHARGING, Greg. For CHARGING ONLY. Not for replacement of a 12 volt battery as you originally stated. ><sheesh> >With any electrical/electronics circuit, the _maximum_ voltage is >important. For charging, yes. For eliminating a 12 volt battery, no. The voltage that is important is the nominal voltage. >> 12 volt lead-acid batteries under charge do not limit >> the voltage to 12 volts in the overall circuit when external [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I'm on my 2nd-10th time round with every point - I've given you a >manufacturer's cite, Which you have misinterpreted. >I've pointed out your mistakes and flawed thinking. I'm just a lowly electronics design engineer. What would I know? >I'm a practical person rather than an theoretical engineer and I know I >make the occassional mistake, but you're talking a load of bollocks. What, Greg? That a 12 volt lead-acid battery will actually be a 12 volt power source? That's fact, not your brand of fiction. In your world, batteries reach any voltage you want even outside of their physical ability. >The >figure that counts is not the nominal voltage, the average voltage, the >mean voltage, the minimum voltage, the charging voltage or the static >voltage - we were discussing the _maximum_ voltage that could be seen on >a model railway from a supply containing an automotive battery at the >time when "12 volts DC" was set as the norm (by the NMRA) That would be 12 volts DC. Or, as pointed out by others here, a maximum of 12.6 volts in an absolutely perfect world. Never will it reach the 13.8 volts you suggested. >In an automotive or model railway situation the voltage at the battery >terminals and the attached loads cannot be higher than the terminal [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >battery plates with consequent distortion and probable destruction of >the cells - but what do _I_ know. So, you can be educated after all. It has to be beaten in, but you can be helped. >Regards and a Merry Christmas to all! The same back at you, Greg. -- Ray > If one charges a battery to 13.8 volts it will be at 13.8 volts. Yes for a very short time, then it will fall down to its idle state, which is 12,6 volts. If you charge with enough amps and 14 volts, it will hold 14 volts as well. But I give up, think what you want - It seems that you will not liste to other people. Klaus SignatureModelbane Europas hjemmeside: http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk Modeltog, internet, gratis spambekæmpelse, elektronik og andet: http://home6.inet.tele.dk/moppe Nu også med Renault elektronik som speciale......... > On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:16:23 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card" > and "Klaus D. Mikkelsen" <er.du.saa.klog@du.kan.finde.den> instead [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Ray Ray, charge an automotive battery to maximum charge and it will hold near enough 13.8 volts, even under a light load. Greg.P. >Ray, charge an automotive battery to maximum charge and it will hold >near enough 13.8 volts, even under a light load. False. -- Ray > > To maintain the 12V under load. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Klaus Aww Klaus, just apply an expensive piece of equipment that will burn out if more than 12 volts is applied to it - it will detect the higher voltage quicker than you can say "B****R!" On 12/21/2007 1:04 PM Greg Procter spake thus: >> > To maintain the 12V under load. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > if more than 12 volts is applied to it - it will detect the higher > voltage quicker than you can say "B****R!" Isn't that like the old thing about using a $15 transistor to protect a 25-cent fuse? > > > To maintain the 12V under load. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > if more than 12 volts is applied to it - it will detect the higher > voltage quicker than you can say "B****R!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Am I the OHMly one that doesn't have AMPle knowledge of WATT this is all about? <g> Bill > > > > To maintain the 12V under load. > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Bill That Hertz! > Am I the OHMly one that doesn't have AMPle knowledge of WATT this is > all about? <g> Must resist temptation . . . even if it exceeds my capacity SignatureSteve > > > To maintain the 12V under load. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > if more than 12 volts is applied to it - it will detect the higher > voltage quicker than you can say "B****R!" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Am I the OHMly one that doesn't have AMPle knowledge of WATT this is about? <g> Bill > >> Regulated or unregulated, a 12 volt supply always puts out a higher > >> voltage until it has a load on it. Believe it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > To maintain the 12V under load. One needs 12 volts before applying the load if one needs a precisely regulated power supply! >>>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >>>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 13.8 volts even in Model Railroad Circles. A CHARGER is but not a > POWER SUPPLY. Get it? Gee, and all these years (50+) when I've needed to charge an automobile, I've grabbed the closest available TRAIN 'Power Supply', checked the polarity, and done the deed!!! (slow, but sure) Chuck D. >>>>12 volts is the maximum voltage set by such organisations as the NMRA >>>>and MOROP. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > -- > Ray > >>>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >>>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Chuck D. Your train power supply is unregulated, other than the rectifier and rheostat. Even at "12 volts" the output is in pulse form reaching close to 17 volts peak. That difference (17 - 13.8v) allows charging current to flow even when full battery charge is reached. A regulated 12 volt supply would only half charge your car battery. >> >>>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> >>>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >full battery charge is reached. >A regulated 12 volt supply would only half charge your car battery. Correct. Or, if it's only a 12 volt supply, it will actually drain his battery. -- Ray > >> >>>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > >> >>>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Correct. Or, if it's only a 12 volt supply, it will actually drain > his battery. From 12 volts down to 12 volts? >> >> >>>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> >> >>>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >From 12 volts down to 12 volts? Lead-acid batteries require a minimum of 10% over nominal. That's why 13.8 volts is used to charge a 12 volt lead-acid battery. Applying any less will cause a drain after a very short time. When a battery goes way down, say to 10 volts or so from use, a 12 volt power supply will work up to a point and then become a drain on the battery. At 10% over battery rating, that's 12.0 volts plus 1.2 volts or a minimum of 13.2 volts to sustain a charge and then a trickle. Obviously, 13.8 volts fits that requirement. A unique thing about a lead-acid cell is that you really can't overcharge it unless you are dumb enough to use a constant current charger. The battery presents a smaller and smaller load to the charger as it gets more fully charged. Nature of the beast. -- Ray >>>>>>>I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >>>>>>>question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > full battery charge is reached. > A regulated 12 volt supply would only half charge your car battery. Sounds about right!!! A "NORMAL" 'Train Power Supply', will charge an attached 'capacitor' to close to 20 volts, because of the peaks in voltage available for a very small amount of time. Chuck D. > I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? I'm asking because I'm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Carter Braxton First off, the tortoises won't care. They draw just a whisper of current and run stone cold. They are just electric motors, no solid state, and a few extra volts won't bother them Second, you might check your meter, it could be reading high. Measure your car battery with the engine off. The meter ought to read between 12.5 and 13.2 volts DC. Thirdly, 16 volts is close to 1.414 times twelve volts. That is the ratio of peak voltage to RMS voltage for a sine wave. It may be that the 12 volt supply has a capacitor filter on the output which at no load is charging up to the peak voltage of the transformer secondary, which would be right around 16 volts. When you draw some current from the supply you may find the output voltage drops back to 12 volts. SignatureDavid J. Starr Blog: www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? I'm asking because I'm [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >would be right around 16 volts. When you draw some current from the >supply you may find the output voltage drops back to 12 volts. I found 12 volts too fast for tortoises so I got an el cheapo train set throttle for a song at a train show - use the throttle to set what seems a good speed and forget it. These are cheap and can be used for lots of things like layout lighting, signals, crossing gates etc. Anything where you don't need a traction-quality supply. > I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb > question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? Carter, Aren't you glad you asked? Stevert Yes, I'm glad I asked... if only to read the energetic exchanges between the group's readers... Thanks to all but especially to David Star who cut straight to my actual question and tells me that using a 16 volt power supply shouldn't hurt a Tortoise motor. Carter >> I don't know if this is a dumb question or if it just SOUNDS like a dumb >> question, but is 12 volts really 12 volts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Stevert >Any thoughts? Man have you asked the wrong group hehehe... >>Any thoughts? > >Man have you asked the wrong group hehehe... Clear your mind. That was easy. No thoughts. -- Ray Damn,... I'm sure glad I didn't ask about DC vs DCC Carter > >Any thoughts? > > Man have you asked the wrong group hehehe... >> >Any thoughts? >> Man have you asked the wrong group hehehe... >Damn,... I'm sure glad I didn't ask about DC vs DCC hehehe... right you are! |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.