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Model Forum / General / Railroads / February 2008Advice on layout
Hello. I would appreciate some advice on building a layout for N scale. I already have the 4x8 ply framed and mounted at 42" high, but now I'm a bit confused. Should I use another 4x8 foam or similar on top of the plywood as the layout base? Another question, what must be done first? Laying track and wiring and then constructing an scenery around it, or scenery goes first and then the track? I would like a lyout that allows running 2 or 3 N trains. Any sugerence would be gratly appreciated. Thanks! > Hello. I would appreciate some advice on building a layout for N > scale. I already have the 4x8 ply framed and mounted at 42" high, but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I would like a lyout that allows running 2 or 3 N trains. Any > sugerence would be gratly appreciated. Thanks! Buy a "how too" book from your local hobby store. Kalmbach publish many book for beginners, you could do worse that invest in a few. And don't lay track directly onto plywood. I'll not advise you what to use as it's a personal choice but buy some books and make your choice. Homasote, cork, dense insulation foam, the pink or blue stuff (Not the stuff with the visible 'bubbles') and ceiling tiles are some possible choices. It also depends on whether you are spiking down your track using rail spikes or small brads or gluing the track down. It also depends on what brand of track you are using. Flextrack, set track or track with the roadbed already cast in place. Anyway, local hobby shop, buy books. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway at:- http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ Latitude: 48° 25' North Longitude: 123° 21' West > Hello. I would appreciate some advice on building a layout for N > scale. I already have the 4x8 ply framed and mounted at 42" high, but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I would like a lyout that allows running 2 or 3 N trains. Any > sugerence would be gratly appreciated. Thanks! Buy or borrow a book on how to build a complete layout. It will show you all the techniques and methods. Ignore scale - what works for HO will also work for N, it will just be smaller. Go to Kalmbach Books website to find out what books are available: http://www.kalmbach.com/ And Railroad Model Craftsman: http://www.rrmodelcraftsman.com/ And the National Model Railroad Association: http://www.nmra.org/ Good Hunting! > Hello. I would appreciate some advice on building a layout for N > scale. I already have the 4x8 ply framed and mounted at 42" high, but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I would like a lyout that allows running 2 or 3 N trains. Any > sugerence would be gratly appreciated. Thanks! I haven't done much with N. I just was 'given' a N modular layout a friend had made, I will be hopefully renovating it to my personal tastes shortly. I will give you with I know from HO that may be a help to you. Some say DO NOT nail track to plywood. I did and have had good luck with the track. However, the teeny brads bend easy if your plywood is too hard. Better to use liquid nails or similar as it won't damage your track. The use of foam or cork roadbed is the normally recomended practice. Again, you may want to forgo the nails for adhesives such as liquid nails. In reguards to the question of Scenery or track first... If you are trying to layout like the real railroads, you have to route your track through existing scenery. NOT A GOOD IDEA for a beginner! It would cause less frustration to laydown your track/roadbed and ballast before you do the scenery. N is very small and your hands are probally very large and trying to route track through a heavily forested scene would result in lots of broken trees and tears!  SignatureFrom the Desk of the Sysop of: Planet Maca's Opus, a Free open BBS system. telnet://pinkrose.dhis.org Web Site: http://pinkrose.dhis.org, Dialup 860-618-3091 300-33600 bps The New Cnews maintainer B'ichela -- From the Desk of the Sysop of: Planet Maca's Opus, a Free open BBS system. telnet://pinkrose.dhis.org Web Site: http://pinkrose.dhis.org, Dialup 860-618-3091 300-33600 bps The New Cnews maintainer B'ichela > In article <49865c38-029f-4786-9f67-9107d61b2...@b74g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, muselart wrote: > > Hello. I would appreciate some advice on building a layout for N [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > The New Cnews maintainer > B'ichela Thanks for your responses! Then should I affix the road bed to the table with liquid nails and then the tracks to the road bed with liquid nails aswell? On 2/14/2008 5:23 PM muselart spake thus: > Thanks for your responses! Then should I affix the road bed to the > table with liquid nails and then the tracks to the road bed with > liquid nails aswell? If it's cork (I believe most roadbed is), you can just glue it to the plywood with ordinary white glue (Elmer's or equivalent), then use the construction adhesive for the track. Doesn't have to be Liquid Nails(r)(tm); can be any good sticky construction goo. Suggestion: get lots of small heavy things to weight the track down while the glue dries. Lead weights are good if you have them. > Suggestion: get lots of small heavy things to weight the track down while > the glue dries. Lead weights are good if you have them. Push Pins are easier to find, at "Staples", by the hundreds. Use the push pins to hold the track in place while the glue dries. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway at:- http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ Latitude: 48° 25' North Longitude: 123° 21' West >> Suggestion: get lots of small heavy things to weight the track down >> while the glue dries. Lead weights are good if you have them. > > Push Pins are easier to find, at "Staples", by the hundreds. > > Use the push pins to hold the track in place while the glue dries. We've used sewing pins on foam to hold the track down before. This gives you a nice long handle to pull the pin out while your other hand holds down the track. Puckdropper SignatureMarching to the beat of a different drum is great... unless you're in marching band. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm >>> Suggestion: get lots of small heavy things to weight the track down >>> while the glue dries. Lead weights are good if you have them. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Puckdropper I like the T-pins used by quilters. Come in many sizes, you can use the bigger ones to hold layers of foam until the glue sets. [...] > Thanks for your responses! Then should I affix the road bed to the > table with liquid nails and then the tracks to the road bed with > liquid nails aswell? No. Use water based acrylic latex adhesive instead. Much less toxic (ie, don't drink it. ;-0)) Liquid Nails is solvent based, and the fumes are very bad -- what you breathe in can not only cause an unpleasant buzz, the stuff accumulates in the kidneys and liver, and can eventually kill you. Rule One re adhesives, paints, and cleaners: avoid solvent based products, and if unavoidable wear certified safety equipment. HTH Signaturewolf k. On 2/15/2008 6:00 AM Wolf K. spake thus: > [...] >> Thanks for your responses! Then should I affix the road bed to the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Rule One re adhesives, paints, and cleaners: avoid solvent based > products, and if unavoidable wear certified safety equipment. Without belaboring a minor point, this is somewhat overstated. I use solvent-based stuff all the time with little or no discomfort or danger. I am, however, selective about what I use and how I use it. Oil-based products (paint, varnish, sealants) are OK to use so long as one makes sure there's adequate ventilation. There are still compelling reasons to use oil-based over latex or other water-based coatings (though it's been pointed out here that there are new products available which may reduce this advantage). I do try to avoid using the more powerful stuff--that is, lacquers and other stuff that uses acetone or similar solvents. These solvents (including the plastic cement we railroad modelers are so fond of using) really require good ventilation, and one should avoid breathing their fumes. > Thanks for your responses! Then should I affix the road bed to the > table with liquid nails and then the tracks to the road bed with > liquid nails aswell? Thats how it is normally done. SignatureFrom the Desk of the Sysop of: Planet Maca's Opus, a Free open BBS system. telnet://pinkrose.dhis.org Web Site: http://pinkrose.dhis.org, Dialup 860-618-3091 300-33600 bps The New Cnews maintainer B'ichela >> Hello. I would appreciate some advice on building a layout for N >> scale. I already have the 4x8 ply framed and mounted at 42" high, but [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > very large and trying to route track through a heavily forested > scene would result in lots of broken trees and tears! As others have recommended, a book will be very helpful, they have good pictures and one picture is worth a thousand words. I assume you have seen an issue or two of Model Railroader magazine. You can nail track down to plywood. However the glue layers inside plywood are so hard that it is difficult to drive in the track nails. They bend, or you have to drill a holes, which can get tedious. The hard plywood acts like a drumhead and greatly amplifies the noise of the running trains. Compromise, you can put cork roadbed on top of the plywood and lay the track on top of the roadbed. This gives a nice look of a raised ballast bed under your ties. The real railroads always laid the wood ties on a loose crushed rock bed (the ballast) to let rainwater drain away and not rot the ties. The cork gives that look. It offers some sound deadening and the track nails go into it easily, but the nails are longer than the cork is thick, so you still have the problem driving the nails into the plywood. Was it me, I'd lay a sheet of homasote on top of your plywood. Homasote is a ground up paper kind of insulating board that takes track nails well and deadens the sound. I'd paint both sides of the homasote before laying track in a brown or green earth sort of color. The paint makes it look better and prevents the board from shrinking or swelling as it dries out or absorbs moisture from the air in your train room. If you decide to change your track layout, all you have to do is pull out the track nails you are good to go. Then you can use cork roadbed on top of the homasote if you like the raised ballast bed look. The other option is to lay a sheet of 2 inch blue or pink insulation foam. The foam is soft enough to shape with a kitchen bread knife to give stream beds, hills, culverts and such. You can do all sorts of scenery things with foam. It's easier than the traditional scenery methods involving plaster of paris and paper strips and screen wire and contour blocks holding things up. Downside to foam. It doesn't take track nails (or any sort of fastener) at all. You have to glue your track in place. Should you change your mind about your layout, getting the glued down track up is harder than just pulling up track nails. Solvent based adhesive or paint can dissolve the foam. You need to make sure what ever you are using is water based or "latex". The common Liquid Nails is solvent based and is not safe for foam, you have to use latex caulk or the special Liquid Nails that says "Safe on Foam". You want to get your track down and running well before getting into scenery. Freshly laid track usually has a few bad spots that cause derailments. You want to find and fix those spots before covering the layout with delicate scenery and model trees that break when reworking the track. Running multiple trains on a 4*8 either means having two separate loops of track running off two different power packs, or using DCC. DCC is complicated. I would get the layout running with old fashioned DC and only get into the DCC or no DCC decision later. SignatureDavid J. Starr Blog: www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com >Some say DO NOT nail track to plywood. I did and have had good luck >with the track. Except it must be noisy... >>Some say DO NOT nail track to plywood. I did and have had good luck >>with the track. > > Except it must be noisy... No. Surprisingly it isn't noisy at all. SignatureFrom the Desk of the Sysop of: Planet Maca's Opus, a Free open BBS system. telnet://pinkrose.dhis.org Web Site: http://pinkrose.dhis.org, Dialup 860-618-3091 300-33600 bps The New Cnews maintainer B'ichela >>>Some say DO NOT nail track to plywood. I did and have had good luck >>>with the track. >> Except it must be noisy... > No. Surprisingly it isn't noisy at all. Hmm... Well that's good. I'm in the process of designing a small layout for my apartment and this thread is most valuable and contradictory all at the same time!.. hehehe... (contradictory to what i thought was right) >>>> Some say DO NOT nail track to plywood. I did and have had good luck >>>> with the track. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > contradictory all at the same time!.. hehehe... (contradictory to what > i thought was right) Well, you do want some noise. The right kind of noise, of course. If the substructure acts as a sounding board, it will distort the noise, which is what you don't want. It will also tend to amplify the lower frequencies, ie, the gear train's coffee-mill noises. This was/is especially bad with older locomotives. Newer ones have nice quiet gears. I've built 8 layouts to the point of running trains (but only two or three progressed much beyond that level), so I've heard it all. ;-) If you use 1/2" or thicker plywood, and screw/glue it down on a 1x3 or deeper frame, with maximum span of 12", then track on cork will be very quiet. Too much mass and too many fixed points for the structure to be a good sounding board. OTOH, track nailed directly to the plywood will be noisy compared to track glued onto cork, but often (not always) fairly quiet anyhow. Same goes for roadbed on risers: the heavier it is, the less noise. The net effect is that you can hear the gear noise all by itself, metal wheels will clickety-clack over rail joints, etc. If you file shallow notches in the railhead at 39ft intervals, the clickety-clack will take you back... Foam OTOH avoids the problems. You don't need as solidly built a substructure to get the noise level where you want it. HTH {snipola} >Foam OTOH avoids the problems. You don't need as solidly built a >substructure to get the noise level where you want it. Naaa, i guess i'll just use the blue or pink foam like i planned hehehe... > Foam OTOH avoids the problems. You don't need as solidly built a > substructure to get the noise level where you want it. It depends on materials used. Strangely, using track fixing pins on top of thick spruce plywood results in much more quiet sounds compared to blue insulation foam (we tested one made by Dow). The blue insulation extruded foam board resulted in a very noticeable and high-pitched noise which is amplified back to viewers (it's heat-insulating material, not noise-insulation, by the way). Out module group preferences are in this order (best to worst): - cork roadbed upon around 10 to 15mm thick spruce plywood - direct track fixing pins on thick spruce plywood - cork roadbed on top of blue insulation board It would be a good idea to experiment a bit (we are still trying to reach a consensus in our group). Cheers, N.Fotis muselart <rinoldix@gmail.com> wrote in news:49865c38-029f-4786-9f67- 9107d61b23c9@b74g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > Hello. I would appreciate some advice on building a layout for N > scale. I already have the 4x8 ply framed and mounted at 42" high, but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I would like a lyout that allows running 2 or 3 N trains. Any > sugerence would be gratly appreciated. Thanks! Since you're just starting out, I'd recommend laying track directly on plywood and nailing it down with track spikes (or similar.) Don't bother much with scenery yet, just worry about getting a feel for trackwork. If you decide you don't like your trackwork, all you've got to do is pull the nails up and rearrange. You don't have to play with this for long, but you'll learn more in the first week by doing something than you will by reading. Puckdropper SignatureMarching to the beat of a different drum is great... unless you're in marching band. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm > Since you're just starting out, I'd recommend laying track directly on > plywood God no! That's the worst advice you can give anyone. Plywood is hard to spike into and is noisy. Go buy a book on begining a railway. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway at:- http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ Latitude: 48° 25' North Longitude: 123° 21' West >> Since you're just starting out, I'd recommend laying track directly on >> plywood > > God no! That's the worst advice you can give anyone. Plywood is hard to > spike into and is noisy. WHOA! Roger, it was just to practice with. Yeah, the OP will quickly figure out that the plywood is a pain to work on directly. He might want to put a 4x8 of homasote on it (lot's easier to spike down). I think what Puck was suggesting was that he, the OP, practice designing simply layouts and then putting them down (a little extrapolation there). Make something simple work then try something a little harder AND the OP will get some hands on and perhaps figure out what he likes about Model Railroad'n. My first attempts at almost everything I've gotten into has been crap. BUT I learned a lot and had fun with it. > Go buy a book on begining a railway. Good advice. Some on line resources like ldsig, groups.yahoo.com/group/small-layout-design, groups.yahoo.com/group/trackplansandsketches, ... Find a club and start hanging out. He doesn't have to join. Look, ask ... Paul >>> Since you're just starting out, I'd recommend laying track directly on >>> plywood [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > WHOA! Roger, it was just to practice with. OK. You're forgiven. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway at:- http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ Latitude: 48° 25' North Longitude: 123° 21' West >>>> Since you're just starting out, I'd recommend laying track directly on >>>> plywood [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > OK. You're forgiven. Puck made the suggestion. Paul > My first attempts at almost everything I've gotten into has been crap. > BUT I learned a lot and had fun with it. Hmmm... My first attempt at brain surgery was a disaster - the patient died. ;) I'm with Roger. Go buy "Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong" and "Trackwork and Lineside Detail"... both by Kalmback - probably available at Amazon if you can't find locally. These will help to give some good concepts of prototypical railroads for the model railroad and how to achieve them. In other words maybe if a lot of modelers read these books first they could have saved a lot of time and got the layout they wanted the first time around and not spend 5-10 years to "learn" by building 2, 3, 4 layouts to get it right. I would also add that another way to learn is to join a local club if one is so inclined. It usually pays to hang out with & pick the brains of those more experienced. Doug >> My first attempts at almost everything I've gotten into has been crap. >> BUT I learned a lot and had fun with it. > > Hmmm... My first attempt at brain surgery was a disaster - the patient > died. ;) Brain surgery was one of those I got right the first time! *8^) > I'm with Roger. Go buy "Track Planning for Realistic Operation by > John Armstrong" and "Trackwork and Lineside Detail"... both by [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > one is so inclined. It usually pays to hang out with & pick the brains > of those more experienced. Hmmm, I've heard this recently, from a very wise sage ... where was that?? Paul On 2/14/2008 8:40 PM Roger T. spake thus: >> Since you're just starting out, I'd recommend laying track directly on >> plywood > > God no! That's the worst advice you can give anyone. Plywood is hard to > spike into and is noisy. If the suggestion is that the O.P. build a temporary layout first, how about this: use screws to secure the track directly to the plywood. A little more effort, to be sure, but it would allow them to reclaim the track with absolutely no damage when they go to build their permanent layout. (Putting in screws would involve drilling pilot holes, say with a Dremel, and putting in very small round-head screws.) > On 2/14/2008 8:40 PM Roger T. spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (Putting in screws would involve drilling pilot holes, say with a > Dremel, and putting in very small round-head screws.) The problem with screws is if you get them too tight (which is easy to do), they'll throw the track out of gauge. (It's the same with nails, but more difficult.) If you use short and sharp sheet metal screws, you may be able to put them in by hand and feel your way to the proper tightness. This is N scale, however, so it may be harder to find the right size screw. Puckdropper SignatureMarching to the beat of a different drum is great... unless you're in marching band. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm On 2/15/2008 3:15 PM Puckdropper spake thus: >> On 2/14/2008 8:40 PM Roger T. spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > them in by hand and feel your way to the proper tightness. This is N > scale, however, so it may be harder to find the right size screw. Good point, and having never worked with N scale, is there even enough room for rolling stock to clear a small round-head screw on top of the ties? I'm thinking something like a #3 or 4 screw (pretty teeny-tiny). > On 2/14/2008 8:40 PM Roger T. spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > track with absolutely no damage when they go to build their permanent > layout. Why waste the time?... if it's all about temporary and not learning how to lay track properly why not just go out and buy premade Bachmann track (with the real simulated plastic ballast look) , snap it together and Voila! Instant layout! Screw... no wait... forget the damn screws, OR tacks, nails, white glue, CA, Barge (for that Rod Stewart twist), liquid gooy stuff, duct tape, staples, bailing wire and any other means of mechanical bond. Heck, forget the plywood... just plop it down on the living room floor and pretend the plush carpet is a vast sea of vegetative scenery. Doug On 2/16/2008 11:57 PM stealthboogie spake thus: >> On 2/14/2008 8:40 PM Roger T. spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Stewart twist), liquid gooy stuff, duct tape, staples, bailing wire > and any other means of mechanical bond. Don't see a call for all the sarcasm; several other folks here suggested that maybe the OP would do well by treating this layout as an experimental first project. So I fail to see the harm in screwing, or otherwise *temporarily* fastening *real* track (not EZ-track) to a plywood deck. The idea is to get a feel for how to lay track, and how to design a layout, and do it in such a way that the track can be retrieved and reused when they decide to build a *real* layout. Is that OK with you? >> On 2/14/2008 8:40 PM Roger T. spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Doug But it's not about a temporary layout. It's about an expendable first layout. It's more important to get track connected together properly than go through all the trouble of roadbed, track plans, and all that. If, at the end of the day you don't know what a quality track connection feels like, or looks like, your trains will never run right. Laying track directly on plywood eliminates all but one or two other factors. It's learning to walk on your skates on carpet before you even attempt to learn to skate on ice. If the OP feels after laying a loop of track on plywood that he's learned enough to start a real layout, that's great. If not, he can take the track up and try a different system. Perhaps throw a snap switch in there and have a siding. As a kid, doing this kept me busy for quite some time. I learned how quality track connections were made, and when I "became a model railroader" (rather than a kid with a trainset) and started using cork roadbed, the trackwork was quite good. Puckdropper SignatureMarching to the beat of a different drum is great... unless you're in marching band. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm > >> On 2/14/2008 8:40 PM Roger T. spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Back in the mid-seventies, two friends and myself decided to build a model railroad in a garage. We fussed and fumed over the track plan for about three weeks until one of the guys said in frustration, "Let's just put the tracks down and play with the trains!" That we did and were happy. It's still good advice. > God no! That's the worst advice you can give anyone. Plywood is hard to > spike into and is noisy. I don't agree on Noisy. However, I do agree that its hard to drive track nails into some grades of plywood. If you can push a push pin in... without it being overforced... Track Nails are fine. If you Can't... Then track nails are going to bend like crazy! My current HO layout is OSB and the track nails went in well. I, however, am going to give cork roadbed a try. SignatureFrom the Desk of the Sysop of: Planet Maca's Opus, a Free open BBS system. telnet://pinkrose.dhis.org Web Site: http://pinkrose.dhis.org, Dialup 860-618-3091 300-33600 bps The New Cnews maintainer B'ichela |
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