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Model Forum / General / Railroads / January 2012MDC HO and HOn3 Shays?
Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out of the loop for a few years so excuse my ignorance on where to look. jim in San Diego On 2/20/2008 4:06 PM jimbol51 spake thus: > Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays > both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out > of the loop for a few years so excuse my ignorance on where to look. Dunno about websites (sure there are some out there), but there've been some good long discussions here on that topic. I guess nowadays you need to use Google Groups (gag!) to see the old posts. > Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays > both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out > of the loop for a few years so excuse my ignorance on where to look. jim in > San Diego Just be aware that these are notoriously bad operating mechanisms. Really, really, really really, really bad. Did I mention they operate badly? On 2/20/2008 4:42 PM jJim McLaughlin spake thus: >> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays >> both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Did I mention they operate badly? They're problematic, to be sure. However, I still intend to put some more hours into mine in hopes of getting it to run at least half-decently. When you say problematic in what way(s) specifically? jim > On 2/20/2008 4:42 PM jJim McLaughlin spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > They're problematic, to be sure. However, I still intend to put some more > hours into mine in hopes of getting it to run at least half-decently. The MDC Shay's problems include poorly formed drivetrain parts that take quite a bit of fine tuning to get to work smoothly, and a basic design flaw of using a center Climax type drive train to transmit power to the wheels while keeping a working Shay type line shaft, so that unless both drive trains are precisely in phase, they fight each other causing constant binds. Most successful MDC Shay projects wind up making the Shay lineshaft "freewheel" to break the mechanical "closed loop". If you are seriously thinking about the MDC Shay, I suggest you obtain one of the books that have been published on how to get it to work. I like "The MDC Shay Handbook" by Jeff Johnston from Oso Publishing, ISBN 0-9647521-1-5. There are other books about the MDC Shay, but some, such as the Modeler's Handbook from Single Shot Gallery, are more about detailing the locomotive than improving its operation. I also understand that MDC start including a much better motor in Shay kits released after mid-1995. If you do decide to obtain one, look for one of the later kits. Geezer > When you say problematic in what way(s) specifically? jim > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> They're problematic, to be sure. However, I still intend to put some more >> hours into mine in hopes of getting it to run at least half-decently. The only problem with Jeff Johnston's book is the price.........it is going for a minimum of $200 on ebay. If you consider the cost of the MDC Shay kit add to that the book add to that the supplemental materials that everybody is mentioning.........the cost to get this Shay functioning is going to top at least $600 or so...........still worth monkeying with one of these MDC Shays then? jim > The MDC Shay's problems include poorly formed drivetrain parts that take > quite a bit of fine tuning to get to work smoothly, and a basic design [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >>> more hours into mine in hopes of getting it to run at least >>> half-decently. > The only problem with Jeff Johnston's book is the price.........it is going > for a minimum of $200 on ebay. If you consider the cost of the MDC Shay kit > add to that the book add to that the supplemental materials that everybody > is mentioning.........the cost to get this Shay functioning is going to top > at least $600 or so...........still worth monkeying with one of these MDC > Shays then? jim I love my Bachmann Shay. Runs good, looks good, I got it new from Charles Ro for $89, back in 2005, shortly after they came out. I have heard lots of horror stories about the MDC Shays.  SignatureDavid J. Starr Blog: www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com I notice there posts are 4 + years old. I just took my two MDC two truck shays out of the box for the first time ever and neither will run. Has there been a solution to this since these posts? I'd really appreciate some guidence on this Thank you michael (underscore)h(underscore)mcmillen [AT] Y a H 00 <dat> com >The MDC Shay's problems include poorly formed drivetrain parts that take >quite a bit of fine tuning to get to work smoothly, and a basic design flaw [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>> They're problematic, to be sure. However, I still intend to put some more >>> hours into mine in hopes of getting it to run at least half-decently. >> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays >> both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out >> of the loop for a few years so excuse my ignorance on where to look. jim in >> San Diego > Just be aware that these are notoriously bad operating mechanisms. >Really, really, >really really, really bad. >Did I mention they operate badly? Now i heard years ago and i also heard that there are mods that will help the operation greatly... anyone... anyone... On 2/20/2008 6:22 PM Big Rich Soprano spake thus: >>> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays >>> both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Now i heard years ago and i also heard that there are mods that will > help the operation greatly... anyone... anyone... Yeah, it's a variation of how my violin-making friend Clarence Shaw told me how to improve a marginal instrument: Take the couplers, bell and whistle off the Roundhouse model. Discard all other parts. Slide another Shay model under these parts (preferably one of the new Bachmanns). >> Now i heard years ago and i also heard that there are mods that will >> help the operation greatly... anyone... anyone... >Yeah, it's a variation of how my violin-making friend Clarence Shaw told >me how to improve a marginal instrument: Take the couplers, bell and >whistle off the Roundhouse model. Discard all other parts. Slide another >Shay model under these parts (preferably one of the new Bachmanns). ha ha hehehe... Can you tell me WHY they operate so badly? jim >> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays >> both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Did I mention they operate badly? > Can you tell me WHY they operate so badly? jim > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> Did I mention they operate badly? The problem is that there are a lot of li'l cast parts in the (dummy) external gear train, which must be cleaned and assembled. (The Model Railroader review mentioned this as a difficulty in assmbly, BTW.) Precision is therefore not guaranteed, and the dummy gear train could bind. So could the main gear train. A common fault with MDC at the time was poorly made gears in the (actual) drive train. Eg, I had a boxcab whose drive gear was bored off-centre! Wouldn't run at all. I rebuilt the Roundhouse 0-6-0 for the Edmonton Model RR Club in the 1960s - had to order a new driver set, as one of the wheels was mounted off centre, too. Caused an amusing duck-like waddle. After careful deburring of axle slots, side-rod holes, etc, the engine ran sweetly, but it took a lot of work. I must have taken it apart and reassembled it a dozen times. Certainly felt that way. ;-) Tyco/Mantua had similar problems, but at least their gear trains usually only needed a few hours running in (followed by disassembly and cleaning.) One of the things that old timers will rarely tell you is that many (most IMO) of those diecast kits offered in the 30s-70s were poorly made, with enormous amounts of flash, parts that didn't fit well, mechanisms that were average at best, and detail parts that often were vaguely shaped lumps of something or other. The amazing thing is that so many buyers persevered. I didn't. I have a partly built Bowser Challenger kit (it cost the equivalent of about $400 in today's money.) Why didn't I finish it? Because the axles bind, despite several attempts to loosen them up. I gave up when I realised that I couldn't guarantee uniformly enlarged bearings. The bearings are U-shaped bits of brass, which need to be reamed. But they aren't circular to start with, so reaming them accurately is a matter of luck. Well, I suppose I could assemble the mech, put some lapping compound in the bearings, put the frame on blocks and apply power for half an hour or so... H'm. ;-) IOW, the Good Old Days weren't. >Can you tell me WHY they operate so badly? Roundhouse isn't know for smoovisity... On 2/21/2008 6:12 PM Big Rich Soprano spake thus: >>Can you tell me WHY they operate so badly? > > Roundhouse isn't know for smoovisity... The award for Word of the Day goes to you, my man. >>>Can you tell me WHY they operate so badly? >> Roundhouse isn't know for smoovisity... >The award for Word of the Day goes to you, my man. Thank you oodles and muchly!.. >> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays >> both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Did I mention they operate badly? I guess I'm in a minority here as well but my Shay has given me few problems. I did buy the updated NWSL drive but never got around to installing it. Never seemed like I needed it. The three truck Shay did give me troubles & I wasn't really able to resolve them. I had to leave the 3rd truck unpowered but the guy I built it for didn't seem to mind. Like Jerry, I had to wire my trucks together as well. One thing that I did to improve the performance of my Shay was to liberally coat all of the moving parts with toothpaste. Not the gel kind but something "pasty" & gritty like Colgate or Crest. I ran the engine propped up on a kit box for about half an hour that way. You could easily hear the mechanism running faster, smoother & quieter as time went by. After the half hour, I disassembled everything & cleaned it thoroughly, removing all traces of the toothpaste, reassembled it and used a little graphite in the gear tower and some thin oil on everything else and it has run well ever since. In fact, I once made a video of the engine moving so slow that it took about four minutes for it to travel its own length without stopping! You could look in the cab and actually see the motor slowly turning. It neither bound nor stopped; it was just a constant slow turning. I'm not sure how my Shay would run now as it has been packed away for quite some time. Finally in the discussion of the MDC Shay, don't forget that a company, I think it was Walker Models, actually made a replacement boiler for it. That was a long time ago, but I think the boiler was more linear than the one that was part of the MDC kit. Did they call it a shotgun boiler? I've never seen one in person, only pictures of the completed, modified model. My 2¢ worth... dlm > >> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays > >> both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > dlm Thanks for the note. It's always a bit supportive to find someone whose experiences match your own. BTW, do you think there might be others here who are interested in model railroading? Naw, probably not. Jerry [...] >> One thing that I did to improve the performance of my Shay was to liberally >> coat all of the moving parts with toothpaste. Not the gel kind but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> You could look in the cab and actually see the motor slowly turning. It >> neither bound nor stopped; it was just a constant slow turning. [...] > Thanks for the note. It's always a bit supportive to find someone > whose experiences match your own. BTW, do you think there might be > others here who are interested in model railroading? Naw, probably > not. > > Jerry Dan isn't the only one to have success with the toothpaste trick. The Late John Selkirk of Sault Ste Marie did it with all his new engines. > [...] > >> One thing that I did to improve the performance of my Shay was to liberally [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Dan isn't the only one to have success with the toothpaste trick. The > Late John Selkirk of Sault Ste Marie did it with all his new engines. "Pearl Drops" was the lapping compound of choice for smoothing out Athearn drives. But it's getting hard to find in the grocery store these days. Len > "Pearl Drops" was the lapping compound of choice for smoothing > out Athearn drives. But it's getting hard to find in the grocery > store these days. It was recommended in this group several years ago. I had to go to every Drug Store around before I found it at RiteAid. One tube should last for at least 500 engines. *8^) Paul On Feb 22, 10:10 am, "Dan Merkel" <danmer...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > "jJim McLaughlin" <jimm.claugh...@comcast.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > dlm Thanks for the note. It's always a bit supportive to find someone whose experiences match your own. BTW, do you think there might be others here who are interested in model railroading? Naw, probably not. Jerry Jerry and other MODEL RAILROADERS... You're probably right... I don't think that there are too many here interested in model railroading. But I'm in to nostalgia... I remember coming here when ALL of the posts were model railroad related. Shucks, coming here nowadays reminds me of the old one liner that goes something like, "I went to see a fight and whaddaya know? A hockey game broke out!" Maybe one of these days, a model railroad discussion will break out as well. In the meantime... as another saying goes, "It's politics as usual!" : ) dlm J> Thanks for the note. It's always a bit supportive to find someone J> whose experiences match your own. BTW, do you think there might be J> others here who are interested in model railroading? Naw, probably J> not. > Jerry > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Maybe one of these days, a model railroad discussion will break out as well. > In the meantime... as another saying goes, "It's politics as usual!" : ) DM: Yes, but what saddens me even more is that the only people who know how to solve All The Problems are busy cutting hair, driving cabs, and hanging out on Usenet. OTOH, if not for Usenet, we'd never know that New Zealand is the One Perfect Country On Earth, the only place that has never taken part in the rampant atrocities and misdemeanors of which every other nation is guilty. Ah well, what can we do. Anyway, I don't know a thing about the MDC Shays, but I say if you can get a kit for cheap, and want to get it working well, go for it. Try assembling one piece of the mech at a time, and making it as smooth as possible. The worst you can do is gain experience. Says a MRR-er who got an Arbour 4-6-0 for cheap and ended up giving the results to a local watchmaker. No permanent harm done, at least not to me. A P I think the MDC Shays can be made to run as well as this message thread has stayed on topic. (grin) > Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays > both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out > of the loop for a few years so excuse my ignorance on where to look. jim in > San Diego Horizon Hobby Inc. (a distributor) bought Model Die Casting (Roundhouse). They have not reissued the Shay. Go to their website (google on "model die casting roundhouse"), and you will see all their current listings. Quite a few of them are discontinued. You will also find that there are no more kits, and that prices have gone up some. If you are thinking of acquiring a Shay, I suggest you look at Bachmann's Shay instead, in their Spectrum line. 80 ton, three truck, in several roadnames aand painted/unlettered. Lists at$275, but street price should be at least 30% less. Supposed to be a decent runner. OTOH, if you really want an MDC Shay, try eBay. Someone may be selling one. IIRC, Northwest Short Line makes or made a regearing kit for them. Keystone Locomotive Works makes a a couple of non-powered Shays that some brave souls have powered. HTH Signaturewolf k. How and with what have the Keystone Shays been powered? jim >> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays >> both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > HTH > How and with what have the Keystone Shays been powered? jim Northwest Shortline made (makes?) a powering kit in HO or HOn3. The original NWSL kits used a tiny Sagami 12 mm can motor. When these ceased to be available, NWSL started substituting a small open frame square motor like those used in HO slot cars. Both versions of the NWSL kit include a pair of truck frame / gear boxes, the rear one of which mounts the motor, and a set of universal joints and couplings to connect the power trucks. The arrangement is reminiscent of the old Varney F-3 power train. The motor sticks up through a new hole in the Keystone chassis into the fuel bunker. The rest of the Keystone cab and boiler are unaltered. The big challenge is attaching the Keystone white metal sideframes to the NWSL gearboxes together with enough of the non-operating Keystone Shay line shaft to look convincing. Geezer Hi, check this out--the author has a boatload of info on powering as he follws his build with video. I captured this, along with a bunch of MDC shay and other stuff (mark rollins class a HO2 1/2 climax) stuff in a word doc I could send via emal. I bought the Rollins kit and an n gauge donor on ebay this week. I figure to strt thre and move to the MDC climaxes I have, then the shay I bought already assembled. Should be hairy and fun. Tommyc http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/165811/1828351.aspx >> How and with what have the Keystone Shays been powered? jim > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >with enough of the non-operating Keystone Shay line shaft to look >convincing. Geezer > > Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays > > both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > current listings. Quite a few of them are discontinued. You will also > find that there are no more kits, and that prices have gone up some. <snip> Really ticking off those of use who were hard core MDC/Roundhouse loco builders, who do NOT want to be paying $200.00+ for a $65.00 kit just because someone else built it and added DCC w/Sound. Len >>> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look > for MDC Shays [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Len Well, even $65 for the kit is overpriced IMO. Especially since the dies have long since been paid amortised. Signaturewolf k. > Well, even $65 for the kit is overpriced IMO. Especially since the dies > have long since been paid amortised. First basic rule of Capitalism: "Charge all that the market will bear. Not one penny more or one penny less". > > Well, even $65 for the kit is overpriced IMO. Especially since the dies > > have long since been paid amortised. > > First basic rule of Capitalism: "Charge all that the market will bear. Not > one penny more or one penny less". Would you like fries with that? You "need" the new model. >> First basic rule of Capitalism: "Charge all that the market will bear. >> Not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You "need" the new model. As soon as someone comes up with a "new model" that actually works -and that's based on the realities of human nature, as is our present system- you be sure and let us know. BTW: don't bother with anything along the lines of Socialism, which begins with the wish-fulfillment premise of "Oh, if only everyone would behave the way I think they should, this would be a perfect world"... > >> First basic rule of Capitalism: "Charge all that the market will bear. > >> Not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > with the wish-fulfillment premise of "Oh, if only everyone would behave the > way I think they should, this would be a perfect world"... Somehow I think that's a political comment. Pure capitalisim is great for a country rich in natural resources like the US (was?) that can afford what we see as near criminal waste. However many countries, like mine, are poor in natural resources so we actually have to work hard to create the wealth we have. It doesn't just filter down as it does in the US. Communisim doesn't look great from the position of living in a democracy, but I'm sure it looked good from the position of serfs in feudal monarchies and dictatorships. When the rich have everything and the populace lives on what they can till from some tiny piece of land, less whatever the powers that be steal as taxes, the concept of sharing wealth has to be appealing. A perfect world? Neither pure Communisim nor pure Capitalism would exist, the US wouldn't be the terrorist nation slaughtering innocent peasants ... Hell, almost everything would change. Regards, Greg.P. > It doesn't just filter down as it does in the US. The symbol of trickle-down economics is a two story outhouse. You know who gets the lower seat . . . SignatureSteve > > It doesn't just filter down as it does in the US. > > The symbol of trickle-down economics is a two story outhouse. You know who > gets the lower seat . . . You're suggesting the theory and the practice don't match? :-) On 2/21/2008 3:09 PM P. Roehling spake thus: > BTW: don't bother with anything along the lines of Socialism, which begins > with the wish-fulfillment premise of "Oh, if only everyone would behave the > way I think they should, this would be a perfect world"... No, it begins with the premise "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Contrary to your beliefs apparently learned in 4th grade, it doesn't require any kind of utopian thinking or magical transformations. It has actually been implemented for brief periods in various places down through history, with many happy customers to show for it. But in a world bound with iron chains to the Washington Consensus (today's world, not George Washington's), the odds are against it. Just look at all the self-congratulatory chest-thumping over Fidel's recent announcement (and yes, I'm a fan of the Cuban Revolution, imperfect thought it may have been: don't agree? Go rent "Sicko" and watch it). > But in a world bound with iron chains to the Washington Consensus (today's > world, not George Washington's), the odds are against it. Just look at all > the self-congratulatory chest-thumping over Fidel's recent announcement > (and yes, I'm a fan of the Cuban Revolution, imperfect thought it may have > been: don't agree? Go rent "Sicko" and watch it). Oh good: "a fan of the Cuban Revolution". I suggest you go there and ask about the availability of such items as model railroad locomotives, privately-owned computers, and/or automobiles produced since1959. What? There aren't any? Gosh, do you suppose that it might just *possibly* have anything to do with their system of government? A system, BTW, that was imposed on them from above -no voting allowed- and that permits no opposition of any sort? I mean , it's nice that the Cubans have a decent national health-care ystem -which we lack- but all it does in the long run is insure that Cubans can now stay alive longer to enjoy their slavery and poverty. > > But in a world bound with iron chains to the Washington Consensus (today's > > world, not George Washington's), the odds are against it. Just look at all [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > ystem -which we lack- but all it does in the long run is insure that > Cubans can now stay alive longer to enjoy their slavery and poverty. You don't possibly suppose it is a result of the extreme sanctions their largest market placed upon them 50 years ago and has maintained ever since? Cubans possibly think a self imposed slavery and poverty is better than a foreign imposed slavery and poverty. >> I mean , it's nice that the Cubans have a decent national health-care >> ystem -which we lack- but all it does in the long run is insure that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > largest market placed upon them 50 years ago and has maintained ever > since? No I don't, and neither do you if you have more than three functioning neurons. I mean, do you really think that the entire *rest of the world* couldn't have made up for the long-standing US ban on trading with Cuba should they have had any reason to? Even though the world has had almost fifty *years* in which to do so? Come now. There are no new cars -or very much else- in Cuba because under Communisim the country has had nothing worthwhile to trade for said merchandise. In short, Cuba's so poor because their system of government doesn't work worth a damn except in matters pertaining to self-preservation. (And universal health care.) > Cubans possibly think a self imposed slavery and poverty is better than > a foreign imposed slavery and poverty. Unfortunately, nobody ever bothered to ask them. And their slavery and poverty isn't "self-imposed". The population had no choice in the matter when Communism was thrust upon them, and that remains true to this day. Imposing a Communist government in order to get rid of a corrupt administration is closely akin to performing a frontal lobotomy with a blasting cap in order to cure a head-ache. > >> I mean , it's nice that the Cubans have a decent national health-care > >> ystem -which we lack- but all it does in the long run is insure that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > should they have had any reason to? Even though the world has had almost > fifty *years* in which to do so? Come now. Of course we can't make up for the USa - go buy yourself a map and a clue. Take a look at where Cuba is situated and where the shipping routes are. > There are no new cars -or very much else- in Cuba because under Communisim > the country has had nothing worthwhile to trade for said merchandise. Typical of bullies, you blame your victims! > In > short, Cuba's so poor because their system of government doesn't work worth > a damn except in matters pertaining to self-preservation. (And universal > health care.) You dson't thing your 50 years of wextreme sanctions has had any effect - so exactly why did you put them in place and why have you maintained them? if you have more than three functioning neurons you'd know why. > > Cubans possibly think a self imposed slavery and poverty is better than > > a foreign imposed slavery and poverty. > > Unfortunately, nobody ever bothered to ask them. True, neither the Spaniards nor the US asked them before, during, or after their invasions and occupations of Cuba. > And their slavery and > poverty isn't "self-imposed". The population had no choice in the matter > when Communism was thrust upon them, and that remains true to this day. They had no choice pre-communism either. > Imposing a Communist government in order to get rid of a corrupt > administration is closely akin to performing a frontal lobotomy with a > blasting cap in order to cure a head-ache. if you have more than three functioning neurons you'd recognise that holds true for the dictatorship the US foisted on Cuba after your invasion and occupation of Cuba. Cuba does have very interesting railways. On 2/21/2008 11:07 PM Greg Procter spake thus: [first on-topic post in this thread!] > Cuba does have very interesting railways. I imagine they're like Hawaii's sugar-cane short lines, another U.S. colonial territory. > On 2/21/2008 11:07 PM Greg Procter spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I imagine they're like Hawaii's sugar-cane short lines, another U.S. > colonial territory. Well yes, Cuba bought it's railway equiment from the only obvious suppliers in the region, the USa. In point of fact, it was the owners of the sugar and fruit industries that built the railways - US corporations. [...] > Oh good: "a fan of the Cuban Revolution". > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What? There aren't any? Gosh, do you suppose that it might just *possibly* > have anything to do with their system of government? No, it has to do with the trade embargo imposed by the US, which forced Castro to turn to the Russians for trade (and triggered the Cuban Missile Crisis.) Castro wanted to trade with the US, you know. But I guess you weren't around when Castro overthrew whatsisname - you know, Batista, the pig who ran the country before Castro. It's instructive to read TIME magazine from the time they reported on Castro's band of romantics hiding out in the hills, through the first weeks/months of the revolution, to the turnabout in US policy when Castro made it clear he wouldn't play the same game as Batista did. > A system, BTW, that was > imposed on them from above -no voting allowed- and that permits no > opposition of any sort? Oh, the Cubans voted alright. Lots of times. But unlike the US ruling class, which offers a "choice", Castro was upfront: "We're in charge. Deal with it." Not that the US is unique. In every democracy, the ruling class makes sure that the gummint will do their bidding. "Free speech" is a nice little safety valve, and has the inestimable value of revealing the real trouble makers, that is, the ones who aren't satisfied with mere bitching, but actually want to change the system. "They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom for trying to change the system from within. We're coming now, we're coming to reward them -- first we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin." (Leonard Cohen. Great song - there are several versions on YouTube, easy to find. Written about 40 years ago.) > I mean, it's nice that the Cubans have a decent national health-care > system -which we lack- but all it does in the long run is insure that > Cubans can now stay alive longer to enjoy their slavery and poverty. Well, slavery is a bit strong, I think. Especially from a person who lives in a country where most workers do not belong to a union, and must take whatever sh.t the boss deals out to them. The world ain't perfect, P. R, but it ain't as bad in non-American places as some Americans seem to think it is. And oddly enough, most of the world does not want to be American. Pax vobiscum. Signaturewolf k. >> What? There aren't any? Gosh, do you suppose that it might just >> *possibly* have anything to do with their system of government? > > No, it has to do with the trade embargo imposed by the US, which forced > Castro to turn to the Russians for trade (and triggered the Cuban Missile > Crisis.) Bullshit. Read my reply to Greg. The entire *world* was available as Cuba's trading partners. The only one's who'd do much were the Russians -who paid wildly inflated prices for Cuban sugar- and even *they* bailed out when they could no longer afford to continue supporting Castro. > Oh, the Cubans voted alright. Lots of times. But unlike the US ruling > class, which offers a "choice", Castro was upfront: "We're in charge. Deal > with it." And you find that to be either admirable or justifiable? (boggle) > Well, slavery is a bit strong, I think. Piffle. Anyone who lacks the means to change his station in life -or his system of government- is a slave: no "ifs", "ands", or "buts" about it. > Especially from a person who lives in a country where most workers do not > belong to a union, and must take whatever sh.t the boss deals out to them. Oh crud. Anyone in the US is free to walk away from his job any time he wants to and seek a better one. I've done exactly that several times in my life, and profited thereby. Asians and Latinos also know this perfectly well, and immigrate here in hordes -both legal and otherwise- every single day; seeking fortunes that many of them will indeed find because rather than sit around and whine about life's injustices they buckle down and work their collective a.ses off! > The world ain't perfect, P. R, but it ain't as bad in non-American places > as some Americans seem to think it is. And oddly enough, most of the world > does not want to be American. A common -and arrogant- assumption. You assume that we think that they *should* want to be American, but in 64 years I've yet to meet a single American who's ever said anything like that. On 2/21/2008 8:03 PM P. Roehling spake thus: > A common -and arrogant- assumption. You assume that we think that they > *should* want to be American, but in 64 years I've yet to meet a single > American who's ever said anything like that. The smug attitude of American superiority, of American Exceptionalism, is so ingrained in us that we don't need to say it. It's an implicit assumption. The rest of the world needs to be like us. We're the new Crusaders, come to bring the Holy Cross of the free market and "democracy" (as we define it, of course) to the whole world. > >> What? There aren't any? Gosh, do you suppose that it might just > >> *possibly* have anything to do with their system of government? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > wildly inflated prices for Cuban sugar- and even *they* bailed out when they > could no longer afford to continue supporting Castro. If your embargo had no effect then you would never have imposed it and you certainly wouldn't have continued it for fifty years. There's no way to ship from Cuba in economic quantities because all shipping in the region goes via the US. > > Oh, the Cubans voted alright. Lots of times. But unlike the US ruling > > class, which offers a "choice", Castro was upfront: "We're in charge. Deal [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > *should* want to be American, but in 64 years I've yet to meet a single > American who's ever said anything like that. >>> What? There aren't any? Gosh, do you suppose that it might just >>> *possibly* have anything to do with their system of government? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > wildly inflated prices for Cuban sugar- and even *they* bailed out when they > could no longer afford to continue supporting Castro. [...] The US embargo applied to all US companies and their foreign subsidiaries. Cuba has sugar and cigars, and tourism. These do bring in some foreign money, but obviously not enough. One reason is that they've converted a lot of sugar cane fields to other food crops. Did you know that until Castro's evil communism was imposed on Cuba, Cuba imported over half of its food? The main source of US dollars was US tourism, which has been cut off. Why? Does the US gummint really believe that Americans will be infected with the communist virus if they happen to see that Cuba isn't such an evil place after all? The only Cubans who suffered after Castro were the fat pigs that benefitted from Batista's rule. And they didn't suffer much. Most of them got away in good time and settled in Florida, from where they have been corrupting US politics ever since. Punishing the Cuban people because Castro turned out to have his own agenda is the worst sort of colonialism. If the US gummint had ignored those Floridian Cubans, they would have been able to accommodate to Castro, he wouldn't have turned to Russia, and we wouldn't have come close to WW3. Etc. Methinks "communism" for you is worse than a red flag for a bull. Get over it. Politics is not religion. Peace, Signaturewolf k. > Methinks "communism" for you is worse than a red flag for a bull. Get > over it. Politics is not religion. If only the obverse were also true. SignatureSteve > Methinks "communism" for you is worse than a red flag for a bull. And you'd be wrong; which is not an uncommon circumstance. I dislike autocratic governments of all sorts, including our current administration. > Get over it. My, but you *can* act like an arrogant little prick when the spirit moves you. > Politics is not religion. Straw man. Nobody said it was. > Peace, Hint: If you want peace, Wolf, don't do things that are calculated to start a war. I mention this only because flinging three insults in the space of one paragraph, and then following them with "Peace", demonstrates that you're unclear on the concept. > > Methinks "communism" for you is worse than a red flag for a bull. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Hint: If you want peace, Wolf, don't do things that are calculated to start > a war. You mean like wanting self-government instead of foreign power controlled corruption? (Cuba, Iraq) You mean things like trying to reunite one's country after centuries of being occupied by foreign powers? (Korea, Vietnam) Being close to nations wanting to reunite ...? (Laos) You mean like trying to turn your nation into a drug free, war-lord free, law abiding nation? (Afghanistan) You mean like wanting self-government instead of Feudal monarchy and corruption? (Saudi, Kuwait) > You mean like wanting self-government instead of foreign power > controlled corruption? (Cuba, Iraq) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You mean like wanting self-government instead of Feudal monarchy and > corruption? (Saudi, Kuwait) I meant precisely what *I* said, not whatever straw men *you* choose to erect and then pretend I meant. (Insanity has frequently been defined as repeating the same illucid action over and over again, while resolutely expecting a different result each time.) You really shouldn't have slept through those English classes. > > You mean like wanting self-government instead of foreign power > > controlled corruption? (Cuba, Iraq) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You really shouldn't have slept through those English classes. OK, resistance is futile - we should all bow down and be absorbed by ... Hell P.R. your system doesn't even work in the resource rich USa, let alone the real world. >> Methinks "communism" for you is worse than a red flag for a bull. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > paragraph, and then following them with "Peace", demonstrates that you're > unclear on the concept. Aw, gee, PR, they were not intended as insults. You have a remarkably thin skin. And if you take that as insult, so be it. It's intended as diagnosis. ;-) First off, I think you may find the following interesting. "Fred" is a 'Nam vet, among other things. He's a curmudgeon, but a thoughtful one. ;-) http://www.fredoneverything.net/index.html [...] >> Oh, the Cubans voted alright. Lots of times. But unlike the US ruling >> class, which offers a "choice", Castro was upfront: "We're in charge. Deal >> with it." > > And you find that to be either admirable or justifiable? (boggle) No. That's just the way it is. Maybe I'm a little less starry-eyed than you, even though you've lived through the same chunk of the 20th Century as I have. >> Well, slavery is a bit strong, I think. > > Piffle. Anyone who lacks the means to change his station in life -or his > system of government- is a slave: no "ifs", "ands", or "buts" about it. To be able to change your station in life you need resources, which most people don't have. The main resources are income and education. One of the side effects of the high costs of post-secondary education is that a smart lower-class kid is only about half as likely to get into college as an average or dumb upper-class kid. And that smart lower class kid is often the only one that the family can afford to send to college. >> Especially from a person who lives in a country where most workers do not >> belong to a union, and must take whatever sh.t the boss deals out to them. > > Oh crud. Anyone in the US is free to walk away from his job any time he > wants to and seek a better one. I've done exactly that several times in my > life, and profited thereby. So you had the resources to do that. So did I. But it was also the luck of the draw. We belong to a generation that benefitted from a labour shortage, so we could and did change jobs just about we wanted. (I walked off a job once because I didn't like the boss's attitude. It was a construction job, I just dropped my shovel and asked for my pay.) Back then, the participation rate (proportion of population in paid employment) was under 30%. Now it's well over 60%. Back then, gummint economists had conniptions when the unemployment rate exceeded 3%. Now they talk about 6% as being the normal rate. Back then, a family could live a decent if not lavish middle class life on a single income. Now it takes at least 1-1/2 incomes. Etc. > Asians and Latinos also know this perfectly well, and immigrate here in > hordes -both legal and otherwise- every single day; seeking fortunes that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > *should* want to be American, but in 64 years I've yet to meet a single > American who's ever said anything like that. Well, I have. We used to get Reader's Digest in the 40s and 50s - my father was an interpreter for the US occupying forces. Every issue had several articles which were thinly disguised exhortations to Be Like US. RD still has such articles, but they are not as blatant. And US foreign policy includes large dollops of this attitude (when it isn't dominated by paranoid delusions that They Are Out To Get US.) I don't doubt that in your circle this attitude is never stated, and I know it's not the majority attitude. But We Others remember the times when it is stated, and I've heard it several times. The funniest was a guy we met in the dome car on the Canadian, who was convinced we Canucks were oppressed by a communist gummint -- because we had socialised medicine! My son, who was 12 at the time, has a disabling chronic medical condition, and has been a political junkie all his life, tried to defend the Canadian Way of Healthcare. The more facts he offered, the crazier the other guy's arguments became. At one point he claimed that the Mounties had a dossier on every one of us, to ensure we wouldn't infect the country with notions of free enterprise! Well, the Mounties did have a lot of dossiers - on people they suspected of "communist sympathies", as it was called at the time. -- The guy's fellow Americans in the dome car apologised to us for his rants, but we assured them we found the guy to be fine entertainment. ;-) HTH Signaturewolf k. > Oh, the Cubans voted alright. Lots of times. But unlike the US ruling > class, which offers a "choice", Castro was upfront: "We're in charge. > Deal with it." So it's good voting when you have to vote for one choice? > Well, slavery is a bit strong, I think. Especially from a person who > lives in a country where most workers do not belong to a union, You are saying the existance of unions is evidence of democracy ... if all citizens belong to one?? > and must take whatever sh.t the boss deals out to them. So how many unions in Cuba? Zero is good a few is bad? Interesting. Paul >> Oh, the Cubans voted alright. Lots of times. But unlike the US ruling >> class, which offers a "choice", Castro was upfront: "We're in charge. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Paul My argument is just as logical as the one I'm rebutting. I guess I should use a few more <irony> markers, eh? Signaturewolf k. On 2/21/2008 7:00 PM P. Roehling spake thus: >> But in a world bound with iron chains to the Washington Consensus (today's >> world, not George Washington's), the odds are against it. Just look at all [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > imposed on them from above -no voting allowed- and that permits no > opposition of any sort? Interesting that you think the availability of model railroad locos and post-1959 automobiles are the ultimate measure of the goodness of a government. (So far as Cuban "elections" go, I don't think they even qualify as bad jokes on democracy. Like I said, the system's imperfect; but with many benefits: decent universal health care, near-universal literacy, and, as someone else pointed out, all in the face of a crippling embargo.) >> I suggest you go there and ask about the availability of such items as >> model railroad locomotives, privately-owned computers, and/or automobiles [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > post-1959 automobiles are the ultimate measure of the goodness of a > government. I didn't say that at all -and you know it- but lacking any way to show that I was wrong about Cuba being an economically failed Communist dictatorship, you try to play "straw man" to cover your tracks. Tsk! > (So far as Cuban "elections" go, I don't think they even qualify as bad > jokes on democracy. Like I said, the system's imperfect; but with many > benefits: decent universal health care, near-universal literacy, and, as > someone else pointed out, all in the face of a crippling embargo.) "Imperfect"?? Yeah, I guess you could say that. You could also call the Marianas Trench "a little deep" and Mount Everest "reasonably tall". And your "crippling embargo"? Just another straw man. Cuba was perfectly free to deal with anyone they wanted to -other than the US- but only the Russians would pay the outrageously inflated prices they wanted for their Cuban sugar crop, and even Russia dropped out of *that* subsidy game. (And kindly note that despite have economically recovered, Russia has not resumed trying to prop up Cuba. Gosh, I wonder why? Does the phrase "good money after bad" ring a bell?) > the outrageously inflated prices they wanted for their > Cuban sugar crop, and even Russia dropped out of *that* subsidy game Gee, I wonder when the US government will drop out of teh sugar subsidy game? Perhaps you could ask Morticia - er, uh, Kaherine Harris - who is a child of such subsidies. SignatureSteve > Gee, I wonder when the US government will drop out of teh sugar subsidy > game? If I had my way, we'd be out of the farming subsidy business tomorrow morning. It was a good idea when it first began, and 90% of American farms were owned by the farmers who lived on and worked them, but now the huge majority of farms are owned by super-corporations who bank the tax-payer funded subsidies, and pay very little in return. But are you seriously equating our government's subsidys for -largely undeserving- US farms with the former USSR's foreign aid to Cuba? > Perhaps you could ask Morticia - er, uh, Kaherine Harris - who > is a child of such subsidies. Hello? Does that have anything to do with the subject at hand?? >> Gee, I wonder when the US government will drop out of teh sugar subsidy >> game? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Hello? Does that have anything to do with the subject at hand?? She certainly has a lot to do (through her voter roll manipulations) with the cowardly draft-dodging weasel in the White House being there, and I haven't heard anything from his quarter regarding ending subsidies to those wealthy Florida Republicans sugar barons from which she sprang. SignatureSteve > She certainly has a lot to do (through her voter roll manipulations) with > the cowardly draft-dodging weasel in the White House being there, and I > haven't heard anything from his quarter regarding ending subsidies to > those > wealthy Florida Republicans sugar barons from which she sprang. I frankly doubt that the present continuance of sugar subsidies -along with every other big-business subsidy- bears directly on the fact that Katherine Harris did her level best to throw the election in favor of Bush -and I don't doubt for a moment that she at *least* tried. (There were lots of folks who helped Bush steal that election, though, and she's just one more "the-results-justify-the-means" right-wing fanatic.) The good news is that the American public has gotten a real eyeful of what happens to a country that turns it's government over to a bunch of extremists, and public opinion seems to be swinging back towards the middle again. The bad news is that if the Democrats manage to screw things up as badly as we all know they might, it could easily go back in the other direction again. > > She certainly has a lot to do (through her voter roll manipulations) with > > the cowardly draft-dodging weasel in the White House being there, and I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > we all know they might, it could easily go back in the other direction > again. Your "middle" is the civilized world's "far right". Regards, Greg.P. > Your "middle" is the civilized world's "far right". The fact that you think you're singularly qualified to define "civilized world" is the reason so few people bother listening to you on any subject except model railroads. On 2/23/2008 7:53 PM P. Roehling spake thus: >> Your "middle" is the civilized world's "far right". > > The fact that you think you're singularly qualified to define "civilized > world" is the reason so few people bother listening to you on any subject > except model railroads. Except that he happens to be dead-on right about this. The world outside the Untied Snakes of America is a far different place from the comfortable cocoon we've woven around ourselves. > > Your "middle" is the civilized world's "far right". > > The fact that you think you're singularly qualified to define "civilized > world" is the reason so few people bother listening to you on any subject > except model railroads. I'll take that as a compliment! On 2/21/2008 11:52 PM P. Roehling spake thus: >> (So far as Cuban "elections" go, I don't think they even qualify as bad >> jokes on democracy. Like I said, the system's imperfect; but with many [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > trying to prop up Cuba. Gosh, I wonder why? Does the phrase "good money > after bad" ring a bell?) Russia's relationship with Cuba is intensely political, as you very well know. If present-day Russia was not under constraints to renounce Communism, as it is, then it would probably still be Cuba's primary trading partner. And the way things are going, with Putin chafing under the US's continued imperial thrusts and demands, and with Russia aligning itself against the "west" on such matters as Kosovo, Iraq and Iran, it's not inconceivable that they might once again decide to subsidize Cuba. By the way, I know firsthand about Soviet support of such regimes, having been in Nicaragua in 1988; one of the most poignant things we saw was the Soviet mobile field surgical unit being used on the grounds of the hospital in Léon after much of the hospital building was rendered unusable by an earthquake. The other amusing thing was the fact that a Soviet delegation was staying at the same hotel with us; we joked about how they seemed like fish out of water there, and always stayed together in their own little group at meal times, never interacting with any other guests. Nicaraguans had a complex love-hate relationship with the Russkis; on the one hand, Nicaraguans were grateful since they kept the country going in many ways, but on the other hand, there was a huge cultural dissonance between the two groups. (My main impression of the Nicaraguan people from that trip is that, like most Latin Americans, they were party animals at heart, not a bad thing to be.) >>>> Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look >> for MDC Shays [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Well, even $65 for the kit is overpriced IMO. Especially since the dies > have long since been paid amortised. True but they still have to be maintained... and that isn't cheap either. dlm > Can someone direct me to the best places on the net to look for MDC Shays > both websites and newsgroups? I'm interested in HO and HOn3. I've been out > of the loop for a few years so excuse my ignorance on where to look. jim in > San Diego I must be a rarity. I've had only moderate dificulties with the HO version for decades. My only real problem was with the trucks coming apart. I ended up wiring them together! No problem since. Mine has great slow speed. It is rather noisy, but, that doesn't trouble me. The Bachmann Shay may be better, I really don't know. Their Climax, however, is a beautiful model. HTH. Jerry |
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