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Model Forum / General / Railroads / December 2008loud roadbed
against numerous suggestions here I used 1/8" luan plywood for my roadbed with some reinforcement underneath to add structure. It's just plain loud when trains roll over it now with ballast and scenery added. what is my best option to deaden the noise. I am considering using "great stuff" foam insulation under it - any other suggestions ? > against numerous suggestions here I used 1/8" luan plywood for my roadbed > with some reinforcement underneath to add structure. > > It's just plain loud when trains roll over it now with ballast and scenery > added. Right. Luan plywood is really a great material for a 'cheap' instrument sound board :-(. Not really what you want for a model railroad roadbed... > what is my best option to deaden the noise. > > I am considering using "great stuff" foam insulation under it - any other > suggestions ? Use homasote on top of the 1/8" luan plywood. www.homabed.com >  SignatureRobert Heller -- 978-544-6933 Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows heller@deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/ Robert , Looking for ideas to fix noise - not confirmation I did it wrong, that's my wife's job. Foam underneath may or may not help. Try a small area first. In some cases certain foams will add to the noise. Something you might also try is that stuff they stuff pillows with. It's sometimes used in sound enclosures. If you used nails to fasten the track try and remove them as they just transmit the noise. The type of glue you use matters. Matte medium works good as it's somewhat rubbery and abates noise. White glue is bad. I know you can't change this but remember for the future. > Robert , > Looking for ideas to fix noise - not confirmation I did it wrong, that's my > wife's job. I suspect that the only way to 'fix the noise' is to rip up the track and put the homabed on the Luan and put the track on top of the homabed. Putting something *under* the Luan is not going to help much. What is happening is that the (long) *rigid* Luan plywood strips are acting like an instrument soundboards: as mechanical audio amplifiers. The homasote / homabed is compress paper fibers and is a 'soft' material that does not vibrate well (too 'mushy'). The sound waves don't travel well. Think of what happens when you drop a stone into think mud vs. a clear deep water pond. You get a nice set of ripples in the clear water that will go all the way to the far shore, but in the mud, the stone just goes plop and no ripples form. The homasote is like the mud and the Luan is like the clear deep pond. As the train moves along the track on the Luan, the whole piece of Luan vibrates and amplifies the train's rolling sound. > SignatureRobert Heller -- 978-544-6933 Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows heller@deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/ > Robert , > Looking for ideas to fix noise - not confirmation I did it wrong, that's my > wife's job. He gave you an excellent suggestion: >> I am considering using "great stuff" foam insulation under it - any other >> suggestions ? >Use homasote on top of the 1/8" luan plywood. www.homabed.com Putting vibration absorbent material UNDER the lauan would not help - and in facr might even make it worse. You need something like homosote or rigid foam (for glued down track) to keep the vibration from reaching the sounding board of the lauan or possibly heavier plywood below. SignatureSteve > Putting vibration absorbent material UNDER the lauan would not help - and > in facr might even make it worse. You need something like homosote or > rigid foam (for glued down track) to keep the vibration from reaching the > sounding board of the lauan or possibly heavier plywood below. Not quite. There are two ways of damping unwanted train noise: (A) Keep the vibrations from reaching the soundboard in the first place. (B) Damping the soundboard so it won't amplify those vibrations even if they *do* get there. (This is the "solid-body electric guitar approach".) In the case of (A), you want to seat the track on something like Homasote which damps vibrations by virtue of both it's density and it's sound-absorbing qualities. This is the classic method, and it works pretty well. In the case of (B), you *can* add density and sound-absorbing materials to the underside of the soundboard, and it will help *a lot*. (Remember that any soundboard projects just as much sound energy from it's bottom as it does from it's top. Because of the scenery Etc. on top of the layout, it's not at *all* unusual to hear more sound coming from *beneath* the layout than from on top.) The problem with adding damping materials to the bottom of the layout is that there are generally too many wires, switch machines, etcetera down there that get in the way; and to get effective damping you've got to cover nearly *all* of that bottom surface...or enclose it. Lastly, (A) and (B) are not exclusive: if you want *real* quiet you can -and should- use something like homasote roadbed and put it atop really rigid benchwork that resists vibrating. If you want to go completely nuts, you can glue acoustic foam -or old-fashoined paper- mache egg flats- to any exposed portions of the underside of the layout. *Then* enclose the bottom portion of the layout. ~Pete On 12/10/2008 6:48 AM tex shalter spake thus: > against numerous suggestions here I used 1/8" luan plywood for my roadbed > with some reinforcement underneath to add structure. BTW, it's lauan, not luan. > It's just plain loud when trains roll over it now with ballast and scenery > added. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I am considering using "great stuff" foam insulation under it - any other > suggestions ? You might try what I've used with some success: glue that awful foam-rubber-stuff carpet underpad under the plywood. Probably not easy to do with an existing layout--you'll have to figure out how to keep the stuff against the bottom of the layout until the glue sets (staples???)--but it does a good job deadening sound. (Obviously easier when layout is being built. You might consider it for the next part of your pike.) SignatureWashing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral. - Paulo Freire > against numerous suggestions here I used 1/8" luan plywood for my roadbed > with some reinforcement underneath to add structure. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am considering using "great stuff" foam insulation under it - any other > suggestions ? Well, it's not easy to reduce sound after the fact. there are no guaranteed methods. Essentially, you need to do three things: 1) add mass to the roadbed/track, which will reduce the loudness, because the limited sound energy from the trains will have more mass to move, and can't move it as much. Hence the motion imparted to the air (sound) will be less, too. 2) mess up the harmonics, so that there are no sound frequencies that are amplified by matching the natural frequencies of the roadbed/track. Gluing 1x2 chunks of wood underneath the roadbed will accomplish both these purposes. Experiment with a few pieces of different lengths, applied at random angles, glued flat and on edge. Also, make sure that the scenery is fastened solidly to the roadbed. That way the mass of the scenery will be added to the roadbed, and and its mixed up harmonics will help mess up the roadbed harmonics, too. 3) break up the sound transmission path between trains and roadbed as much as possible. If you pinned the track down, pull all the pins. The ballast will hold the track in place. Pulling the pins will reduce the rigidity of the track to roadbed linkage, which also help reduce sound transmission from the trains to the roadbed. Foam insulation won't do as good a job. It works as sound dampener by breaking up the sound transmission paths, so it works very well inside hollow walls (for example.) Good luck. SignatureWolf Kirchmeir => Well, it's not easy to reduce sound after the fact. there are no > guaranteed methods. Essentially, you need to do three things: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > 3) break up the sound transmission path between trains and roadbed Or use the Get Smart "Cone of Silence". -- Cheers Roger T. See the GER at: - http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/ Thanks all, will keep you posted. > Thanks all, > will keep you posted. From my experience, carpet stapled to the underside of the train board does SUBSTANTIALLY reduce the noise. Here was the situation: I build a fairly large Lionel tinplate portable display layout for our club's annual open house (to sort of "show the tinplate flag"). The first year it was so LOUD that you could hardly talk over it. After the open house, I had some old carpet lying around, so I stapled it to the underside of all the layout pieces. Next year, no problem. Just a "nice" tinplate sound. FWIW YMMV Hank Murray Quincy, IL hmurray@adams.net Henry Murray Consulting Service and President, CEO, and General flunkie of the Central Valley Terminal Railroad (HO) Razor for human behavior: (with apologies to John of Occam) Never attribute to malice, intention, or plan that which can be explained by ignorance, incompetence or stupidity. > => Well, it's not easy to reduce sound after the fact. there are no >> guaranteed methods. Essentially, you need to do three things: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > See the GER at: - > http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/ H'm I wonder if his shoe-=phone could be adapted as a DCC controller. You could operate the layout by wiggling your toes. ;-) SignatureWolf Kirchmeir > Or use the Get Smart "Cone of Silence". > > -- > Cheers > Roger T. > See the GER at: -http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/ I don't see what the big deal is about the model train noise. My friend's entire layout is built using 1/4 luan plywood on L-girders and the noise doesn't seem to be objectionable. We don't even really notice it. It is a fully finished layout with most of the track on cork roadbed and mostly using extruded styrene insulation for scenery base. Maybe the fact that it is N scale plays a role in this? I wonder if Tex's layout is H0 (or larger) in the "plywood plains" stage? I could see how a bare plywood layout would seem louder than one with finished scenery. I suspect that scenery muffles the sound quite a bit. I also suspect that Tex is not using 1/8" plywood (as he stated) but 1/4". Peteski > > Or use the Get Smart "Cone of Silence". > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > notice it. It is a fully finished layout with most of the track on > cork roadbed and mostly using extruded styrene insulation for scenery ^^^^^^^^^^^^-- this kills the noise. Cork and homasote are both 'mushy' materials and good sound dampening materials. > base. Maybe the fact that it is N scale plays a role in this? I > wonder if Tex's layout is H0 (or larger) in the "plywood plains" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Peteski > SignatureRobert Heller -- 978-544-6933 Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows heller@deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/ Hi, >> against numerous suggestions here I used 1/8" luan plywood for my roadbed >> with some reinforcement underneath to add structure. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > move, and can't move it as much. Hence the motion imparted to the air > (sound) will be less, too. Agree. > 2) mess up the harmonics, so that there are no sound frequencies that > are amplified by matching the natural frequencies of the roadbed/track. Agree. I would start with a strip of plywood glued to the underside of the road-bed in line with the tracks, going from support to support (kind of like a bridge structure). Then I would add additional supports in as many places as possible (random angles and positions are good ;-) > Also, make sure that the scenery is fastened solidly to the roadbed. > That way the mass of the scenery will be added to the roadbed, and and > its mixed up harmonics will help mess up the roadbed harmonics, too. Basically the noise is amplified by (large) boards vibrating in frequency with the train's vibrations. The stiffer your road-bed, scenery and sub-structure get, the less free vibrating masses are left. You will still have some noise, but much less... > Foam insulation won't do as good a job. It works as sound dampener by > breaking up the sound transmission paths, so it works very well inside > hollow walls (for example.) I would rather add foam as a last resort to shrink the hollow spaces beneath the layout. Compare an acoustic guitar: the strings are rather silent, but with the hollow body beneath them, there is a "mechanical" amplifier. It uses large flat boards surrounding a hollow space to amplify the sound. If you fill the guitar with foam (whatever) it will be quite silent. So if your layout has an enclosed, thin-walled space below it - this might act as amplifier - along with the rather well-amplifying road-bed. So, first work on your road-bed and if that's not enough, just put the boxes with your spare material below the layout to break up the space. In some cases you'll want to put foam inside some cover boards or inside a hollow beneath your scenery, but I doubt adding foam beneath the road bed to be very efficient by itself ;-) Have fun.. > against numerous suggestions here I used 1/8" luan plywood for my > roadbed with some reinforcement underneath to add structure. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am considering using "great stuff" foam insulation under it - any > other suggestions ? Here's a somewhat crazy one that might work. Cut your roadbed free from the surrounding plywood and then secure it back in place with caulk or foam insulation. This will minimize the amount of material that's allowed to vibrate and should thusly quiet your trains. Many model railroads do something similar but do it before they lay track. They then butt the scenery material (foam or plaster) up to the roadbed. Puckdropper SignatureOn Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some writers are incorrigible. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm Thanks all Not such problem I'm going to rip up good looking trackwork and scenery. I'll try a few different suggestions ( for UNDER existing roadbed) in a few different places and see what works best. > Thanks all > > Not such problem I'm going to rip up good looking trackwork and scenery. > > I'll �try a few different suggestions ( for UNDER existing roadbed) in a few > different places and see what works best. You obviously should have built a garden railroad! No roadbed noise there. > against numerous suggestions here I used 1/8" luan plywood for my roadbed > with some reinforcement underneath to add structure. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I am considering using "great stuff" foam insulation under it - any other > suggestions ? You need MASS affixed to the underside of your plywood. In your situation I would use 3/4" MDF (cheap resin bonded furniture) glued to the underside of your ply. I guess you will have to "cookie cut" it to fit between cross-supports etc - tight fitting would be best. After 40 years of baseboard building I use 1/2" chipboard with 1/2" soft board (presumably like Homasite) on a 3" x 1" ladder frame. (spacing = electric drill with 1/4" drill bit) I long ago figured that light weight isn't worth the effort or savings, especially after a complex station yard developed waves after it was finished. Greg.P. NZ I constructed a 3.5 x 4 foot platforn using 7/16 OSB and topped it with acoustic ceiling tiles (2x4 feet). I used white glue and chose the textured side for better visual effect. To paint it I used HVLP spray (brushes can't get into the crevices). Fastening track down is fine - the tiles will grip screws but don't try too tight. I've been running O Gauge trains and have had no problems. The sound level is actually quite low. In my area I passed on homosote becasue the price is through the ceiling! |
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