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Model Forum / General / Railroads / April 2009How To Get Around eBay's New Paperless Payments Policy.
As most of you who use eBay probably know; eBay is trying their level best to get rid of paper payments in hopes of getting rich(er) by collecting an extra 8% or so on every single sale in the form of PayPal fees. However: it turns out that it would be an illegal restraint of trade for eBay to *require* everyone to use PayPal *only*. So what eBay *can* do -and *is* doing- is preventing sellers from mentioning that they'll accept paper payments in ther auction texts, and this eBay can do because they own the website and the law allows then to control it's content. This leaves the sellers in a lousy position, because they quite naturally would like to make the maximum possible profit on each sale, and many potential buyers -myself included- won't open a Paypal account because PayPal now *requires* that you give them your bank account access information, and *that* could lead to identity-theft problems of Biblical proportions. But! Because it would be illegal for eBay to just flat-out forbid it's sellers to accept paper payments they had to leave a loophole for creative sellers and buyers to sneak through, and a little digging on the eBay site found these weasel-words: (Scroll down and read the relevant section about customers who refuse to use anything *but* paper.) http://pages.ebay.com/sell/august2008update/otherfaq/#3 What it comes down to is this: sellers can still accept any form of payment they wish to, but since eBay forbids then to mention that fact in their ads what you have to do is simply email the seller of the item you're interested in and ask if they still accept paper payments such as personal checks, bank checks, or US postal money orders. Out of perhaps 100 sellers that I've asked so far, only three have replied that they prefer to use Paypal only, and two of those did so because they thought that accepting paper payments would cause them to lose their eBay account! After sending them the above URL and letting them see for themselves that they aren't *required* to pay eBay that extra 8% unless they *want* to, two of the three relented and decided that paper payments might be a good idea after all. So here's my evil plan: spread the word. Far and wide. To sellers and buyers alike. Despite their protestations to the contrary, eBay instituted this policy because their profits fell due to the current recession, and rather then tighten their belts like the rest of us they decided to essentially charge twice as much for their services instead. Frankly, this reeks of the Wall Street guys who led their companies to financial Armageddon and then acted surprised that people got pissed off when said execs collected multi-million dollar bonus packages anyway. Right now a little pitch-fork and torch action by the angry villagers might be just what is called for. (Tell Igor we storm the castle at midnight! ) ~Pete On 4/9/2009 12:42 AM Twibil spake thus: > Despite their protestations to the contrary, eBay instituted this > policy because their profits fell due to the current recession, and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > might be just what is called for. (Tell Igor we storm the castle at > midnight! ) Amen to that. I agree with all that you said. I really wonder, though, if one couldn't say in their auction description that one would accept non-PayPal payment. After all, what? does some eBay drudge actually scan each and every auction? I think not. So I plan on doing just that the next time I put something up for sale and see what happens. I used to put a "no PayPal" icon on my auctions, a little graphic of the PayPal icon with the red circle and slash. Never heard a peep from eBay.  SignatureSave the Planet Kill Yourself - motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/) > I really wonder, though, if one couldn't say in their auction > description that one would accept non-PayPal payment. After all, what? > does some eBay drudge actually scan each and every auction? I think not. No. But they *do* have search programs running that scan for words and combinations of same in every new incoming ad and automatically reject anything that trips their buttons. For instance: the words "money order" or "paper payment" will already do just that, and eBay *does* try to keep up with new permutations as sellers invent new ways of saying the same thing to get around the rules. > So I plan on doing just that the next time I put something up for sale > and see what happens. Worst that can happen is that eBay will notify you that if you keep doing it they will close your account. And if you *do* keep doing it and they *do* close your account it's but the work of a moment to open a new one under a different name... So this entire thing is really just a huge bluff on eBay's part in an effort to make themselves a lot more money: they have no real teeth, and can only make things somewhat more difficult for their patrons. ~Pete > As most of you who use eBay probably know; eBay is trying their level > best to get rid of paper payments in hopes of getting rich(er) by [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > account access information, and *that* could lead to identity-theft > problems of Biblical proportions. I have a free account with a local bank completely separate from my 'normal' bank accounts. I use it exclusively for PayPal transactions. You are much more susceptible to identity theft when using a credit card in a restaurant. > I have a free account with a local bank completely separate from my 'normal' > bank accounts. I use it exclusively for PayPal transactions. Good idea if you want to use PayPal. *Very* good idea. > You are much more susceptible to identity theft when using a credit card in a restaurant. Maybe. Maybe not. But my mother-in-law had $10,000 suddenly walk out of her bank account one day, and the only people who had access to her banking information were the Bank of America and PayPal. So either Paypal or B of A had a leak in the system *somewhere*... (After a prolonged argument B of A eventually stood good for the missing money, but they never did find out who withdrew it or how they got the information to begin with, so it's 50-50 odds that a PayPal employee was indulging in a little identity theft on the side, and I see no reason to expose myself to that risk.) Besides: life is more fun when you can tlt at windmills -in this case a large greedy windmill- and occasionally win! ~Pete >> I have a free account with a local bank completely separate from my 'normal' >> bank accounts. I use it exclusively for PayPal transactions. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > ~Pete Actually, every person that receives a check from you has the same information that you give to Paypal. Routing number and account number, and name. That's all the information they need, and it is on all of your checks. Oh, and a cooperative bank. Not that I'm a big fan of Ebay and their policies or performance, but in general, you are fare, far more secure using electronic banking than putting a check in the mail. Sure, schemes happen and people get ripped off both ways, but sending your account information (and signature!!!!) through the Postal Service is, when you think about it, almost an invitation for theft. Regards, DAve (with 13 years in bank operations under his belt) > Actually, every person that receives a check from you has the same > information that you give to Paypal. Routing number and account number, > and name. That's all the information they need, and it is on all of your > checks. Erm, that *would*be true if I sent personal checks, but I exclusively use US postal money orders. ~Pete > > Actually, every person that receives a check from you has the same > > information that you give to Paypal. Routing number and account number, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ~Pete I was ripped that way twice. If you think the post office is slow, imagine asking about tracking down a $15 money order............................. > Besides: life is more fun when you can tlt at windmills - Personal note: to the best of my knowledge I have never "titted" at a windmill, nor would I know how to do so should the occasion arise. However, it sounds painful at best -so I suggest you confine yourselves to "tilting" at any windmills you may encounter. (Unless, of course, it sounds attractive to you; in which case YMMV.) ~Sancho <snip> > So here's my evil plan: spread the word. Far and wide. To sellers and > buyers alike. > > Right now a little pitch-fork and torch action by the angry villagers > might be just what is called for. (Tell Igor we storm the castle at > midnight! ) Doesn't help me much if I decide I want to sell some things. I'm still going to be required to set up one of their hack accounts with my bank. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me "I’m telling you, folks, there’s a part of me that likes this." -Rush Limbaugh on the kidnappings of peace activists in Iraq > <snip> >> So here's my evil plan: spread the word. Far and wide. To sellers and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Doesn't help me much if I decide I want to sell some things. I'm still > going to be required to set up one of their hack accounts with my bank. Hmmm. So how hard is it to set up an auction site that doesn't allow people to use paypal I wonder, paper only. Could be an opening in the market if e-bay restricts itself. Mike > > <snip> > >> So here's my evil plan: spread the word. Far and wide. To sellers and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to use paypal I wonder, paper only. Could be an opening in the market if > e-bay restricts itself. That's probably exactly what will happen. Whereupon eBay will promptly revise it's rules to once more allow paper payments in an effort to recapture lost market share. Right now, they think they're too big to fail and can do anything they want without fear of retribution. ~Pete > <snip> >> So here's my evil plan: spread the word. Far and wide. To sellers and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Doesn't help me much if I decide I want to sell some things. I'm still > going to be required to set up one of their hack accounts with my bank. Set up a Separate bank account. If possible, use another bank. US Bank offers free checking accounts (in Oregon anyway). When I needed a PayPal account, I opened an account at US Bank. That account is the Only account I have at US Bank and for the past three months has never had a balance of more than $17.00. When I win an auction I make a deposit to cover the cost. Not sure what you have set up with PayPal, but I pay 3% to accept paypal. No different than accepting a Visa, Master card. or AMEX. I do not know anyone paying more than 3 to 3 1/2% for using PayPal for business and auction sales. Sounds to me like you are the one getting screwed. I just closed 18 auctions last month and I was not forced to say I accept paypal only. Some people payed with checks, some payed with pay pal. Some did direct credit card sales with me. Me thinks you need to go back and correct your agreements with both E -Bay and Pay Pal.. Good Luck Mike Mueller > Not sure what you have set up with PayPal, but I pay 3% to accept > paypal. No different than accepting a Visa, Master card. or AMEX. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Good Luck > Mike Mueller I used money orders once for an overseas purchase and the seller claimed that I didn't pay him so I sent him another one. I never got the merchandise and I could not prove it to E-Bay. So from then on I use PayPal only plus the fact I wouldn't purchase out of the US if Hell froze over. Sorry guys John >> Not sure what you have set up with PayPal, but I pay 3% to accept >> paypal. No different than accepting a Visa, Master card. or AMEX. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Hell froze over. Sorry guys > John There is one sure way to never get screwed when using PayPal. Always use your credit card as your funding source. That way you can have the charge frozen when a seller screws you. If more people opted for their back up funding source and used the credit card system as they should, paypal would finally have to do something about their service. When a complaint is filed, it is up to the merchant to prove they were compliant with the purchase. If one must sent a money order, make sure it is an International Money order drawn from a real bank. That is no different than a check and you will than proof the money order was cashed. A little know fact is that a Money Order can have a stop payment put on it just like a bank check. The Problem with PayPal and E-bay is that people complain but are not willing to go through the hassles of following up. Mike Mueller > I wouldn't purchase out of the US if Hell froze over. Depends. That's a common attitude -and with good reason- but you can occasionally use that attitude to your own benefit. A year or so ago I saw a rare (yes, really) N.W.S.L. Willamette logging loco in mint condition being auctioned on eBay, with the seller listed as being located in London, England. Like you, I shrugged it off with a "No way, Jose!", but as the auction deadline approached I noticed that there were still no bids and decided to do a little research. Turned out it was being sold by a 100-year-old and *very* well- respected British auction house that specialises in collector's toys, and the odds of being scammed by them -if it *WAS* them- were *extremely* low. So after calling them on the phone and discovering that it was indeed the auction firm that was selling it, I went ahead and bid -and got it for the opening price. No one else even bid: presumably because American logging locos aren't all that popular with British model railroaders, and the Americans were all too suspicious of an overseas seller to take a chance. Another Willamette just like it showed up on eBay about 6 months later, and sold for circa $750 -which is over $400 more than I payed for mine. ~Pete Personally I prefer checks and money orders to Paypal. When eBay started their newest extortion, I removed most of the detail in my listings regarding payment methods. My auctions now simply say: "Contact seller for payment options". > Personally I prefer checks and money orders to Paypal. When eBay > started their newest extortion, I removed most of the detail in my listings > regarding payment methods. My auctions now simply say: "Contact > seller for payment options". And you can get away with that under the new rules? SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me Never test the depth of the water with both feet. On 4/12/2009 4:20 PM Rick Jones spake thus: >> Personally I prefer checks and money orders to Paypal. When eBay >> started their newest extortion, I removed most of the detail in my listings >> regarding payment methods. My auctions now simply say: "Contact >> seller for payment options". > > And you can get away with that under the new rules? Sure; what eBay doesn't know can't hurt you. As I pointed out, it's not as if they (eBay) can have perfect knowledge of the contents of each and every auction; at best, they probably have some kind of bot scanning newly-posted auctions for certain hot words or phrases, and some drones there probably spend their time checking random auctions. But no way are they going to catch all "violators" of their new policy. I'm planning on putting some stuff up for auction there and explicitly saying in my description that I don't accept PayPal. Worst that can happen is that they'll yank the auction; I really doubt that even that will happen. We'll see. SignatureSave the Planet Kill Yourself - motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/) > I'm planning on putting some stuff up for auction there and explicitly > saying in my description that I don't accept PayPal. Worst that can > happen is that they'll yank the auction; I really doubt that even that > will happen. We'll see. If you did that here in Australia, paypal enthusiasts would report you to ebay with the "report this item" link. You should realise that not everybody is anti-paypal. It takes vastly less effort for buyers. On 4/12/2009 7:09 PM a_a_a spake thus: >> I'm planning on putting some stuff up for auction there and explicitly >> saying in my description that I don't accept PayPal. Worst that can [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You should realise that not everybody is anti-paypal. It takes vastly > less effort for buyers. Not everybody is anti-PayPal, but there's *enormous* and widespread dislike of it which can't be ignored. eBay's gonna have to deal with it sooner or later. I'd guess that most buyers who prefer PayPal haven't thought it through very thoroughly, and a lot of them could be convinced that it's not such a Great Thing after all. So there are actually stool pigeons there who'll turn you in? How nice. SignatureSave the Planet Kill Yourself - motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/) > Not everybody is anti-PayPal, but there's *enormous* and widespread > dislike of it which can't be ignored. eBay's gonna have to deal with it > sooner or later. Sellers dislike the cost, but why should buyers dislike it? > I'd guess that most buyers who prefer PayPal haven't thought it through > very thoroughly, and a lot of them could be convinced that it's not such > a Great Thing after all. Then convince me for a start. > So there are actually stool pigeons there who'll turn you in? How nice. Not stool pigeons, just ordinary buyers who object to sellers defying rules. I (and several others I know) would simply not buy from a seller who did that, on the grounds that if the seller can't be relied upon to comply with one rule, they can't be trusted to comply with any other due process either. Thus sellers who act like that are reducing their market base, and if they end up with a less competitive auction as a result, they may well lose more than the paypal charge would have been. > Sellers dislike the cost, but why should buyers dislike it? Because it's screwing unwilling sellers. No man is an island, and you can piss me off by goring my neighbor's ox just as easily as if it were mine. > Not stool pigeons, just ordinary buyers who object to sellers defying > rules. That's how you spell "stool pigeon". Not the "objecting" part, but certainly the "turning in" bit. Those are two different things. > I (and several others I know) would simply not buy from a seller who did > that, on the grounds that if the seller can't be relied upon to comply > with one rule, they can't be trusted to comply with any other due > process either. "Due Process"? Not according to any definition I could find. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=ig&num=50&defl=en&q=define:due+process&ei =RsziSdAUhuqyA6CR7KcJ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title Look; when I worked a union job I couldn't be trusted to obey rules for unions that were made not by the unions themselves or by disinterested third parties, but by the very people who had a vested interest in seeing that unions remained -if not non-existent- then just as powerless as possible. Likewise, I cannot be relied upon to obey speed laws that were made not to promote the public safety but to fill the coffers of greedy local governments. (Saw 158 MPH on a stretch of deserted two lane blacktop this morning.) The 158 MPH may not be typically Americasn, but the attitude is. Similarly, when laws in the American deep south said that blacks were second class citizens, who were not allowed to vote and who could be lynched without fear of retribution, you could not rely upon me to respect *or* obey them. Not only that, but I actively worked until those laws were changed. And I *certainly* can't be relied upon to obey an arbitrary set of rules that were designed exclusively by and for a multi-million-dollar corporation who intends to strip their customers of every red cent that they possibly can -while still remaining in business. Maybe it's an American thing; but when we see what we consider to be an injustice -and there's a possible way to game the system- many of us take it an almost sacred duty to do exactly that. Marching in lockstep to a tune we don't call is not our style. > Thus sellers who act like that are reducing their market > base, and if they end up with a less competitive auction as a result, > they may well lose more than the paypal charge would have been. Does not follow. Wanting to continue to give your customers a choice of ways to pay is not the same thing as refusing to use PayPal. A seller who offers what the widest spectrum of buyers want -and many buyers dislike PayPal- will attract more customers than someone who doesn't. ~Pete > Does not follow. Wanting to continue to give your customers a choice > of ways to pay is not the same thing as refusing to use PayPal. We were talking about people refusing to offer paypal. Not offering your customers paypal at all is forcing them into payment methods that are typically much more inconvenient and much less safe. So that makes the seller selfish in my view, and it is hypocritical then to accuse the buyer of selfishness. > > Does not follow. Wanting to continue to give your customers a choice > > of ways to pay is not the same thing as refusing to use PayPal. > > We were talking about people refusing to offer paypal. Well, since you carefully snipped everything *except* that without rebuttal, I guess we are *now*. And you're still wrong. Offering PayPal -or not- should be the seller's option, good business idea on their part or no. > Not offering your > customers paypal at all is forcing them into payment methods that are > typically much more inconvenient and much less safe. Bullshit. Nobody reaches out through their computer and "forces" a buyer to do *anything*. (Look around: do you see my disembodied hands reaching for your throat? No? I rest my case.) In the real world, if the potential buyers don't like the options offered to them they simply don't buy. And, if they're like me, they email the seller, politely tell them why they won't be bidding -in my case because I refuse to use PayPal- and point out that they *can* accept paper payments if they wish to do so. > So that makes the > seller selfish in my view, and it is hypocritical then to accuse the > buyer of selfishness. The key words here are "in my view", and as you're the only one so far to mention selfishness, to use the word "hypocritical" to try to slant your straw man argument, or to approve of turning in people who do things you dissaprove of "in your view", "your view" is more than a bit suspect. ~Pete >>> Does not follow. Wanting to continue to give your customers a choice >>> of ways to pay is not the same thing as refusing to use PayPal. >> We were talking about people refusing to offer paypal. > Well, since you carefully snipped everything *except* that without > rebuttal, I guess we are *now*. We were then. I did not start that line of discussion. >And you're still wrong. Offering > PayPal -or not- should be the seller's option, good business idea on > their part or no. Just as it should be ebay's option to prohibit it; sellers are not forced to use ebay, and if you don't like ebay's policies, go elsewhere. > Bullshit. Nobody reaches out through their computer and "forces" a > buyer to do *anything*. (Look around: do you see my disembodied hands > reaching for your throat? No? I rest my case.) > In the real world, if the potential buyers don't like the options > offered to them they simply don't buy. Exactly what I said, which is why it is bad business as well as being contrary to rules. > And, if they're like me, they email the seller, politely tell them why > they won't be bidding -in my case because I refuse to use PayPal- and > point out that they *can* accept paper payments if they wish to do so. Why should I make any effort to help a seller who is so determined not to help me or any other buyer who prefers paypal? > The key words here are "in my view", and as you're the only one so far > to mention selfishness, to use the word "hypocritical" to try to slant > your straw man argument, or to approve of turning in people who do > things you dissaprove of "in your view", "your view" is more than a > bit suspect. I expressed no view on turning in people (I merely factually stated that it commonly happens), and indeed I had no firm view one way or the other till I read your comments. However you have now led me to have a view which does indeed approve strongly of "turning in" offenders. Thank you for clarifying the matter for me. > if you don't like ebay's policies, go elsewhere Love it or leave it, eh? Maybe you're not a pom, just an expatriate Spiro Agnew lover. I don't like internet anonymity - where else should I go? SignatureSteve > Just as it should be ebay's option to prohibit it; sellers are not > forced to use ebay, and if you don't like ebay's policies, go elsewhere. You're an idiot. It is *illegal* for eBay to force people into using Paypal. It's called "restraint of trade" over here, and that's why eBay still allows paper payments at all. It's also why eBay cannot force sellers to use PayPal, much as they'd like to. They are legally *required* to leave those loopholes open, and your idea that eBay should be free to make whatever rules they wish -the law notwithstanding- and that we should all act like sheep and obey their desires without question is frankly insane. Matter of fact, the powers that be in OZ feel the same way that I do...and if you'd been paying attention you'd already know about it. eBay *tried* to institute a "PayPal only" rule in OZ and NZ and were promptly slapped down. http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/cab/abn/y08/m06/i12/s00 > Exactly what I said, which is why it is bad business as well as being > contrary to rules. You seem to have a compulsion to obey the "rules", so we'll put you to the test: I have just promulgated a new rule that says you aren't allowed to post any more stupid opinions. Are you going to obey it? Of course not. Because despite the fact that it would be a grand idea -and would make you look better as well- I have no authority to tell you or anyone how to behave. Likewise, neither you nor eBay has any authority to make extra-legal rules and expect people to obey them. > > And, if they're like me, they email the seller, politely tell them why > > they won't be bidding -in my case because I refuse to use PayPal- and > > point out that they *can* accept paper payments if they wish to do so. > > Why should I make any effort to help a seller who is so determined not > to help me or any other buyer who prefers paypal? So you think you're "helping" a seller by bidding on their auction? Interesting definition of "help". (Boy, no ego problem there!) But let me guess why you'd do something like that anyway: because you really want the item they're selling? (Duh) > I expressed no view on turning in people (I merely factually stated that > it commonly happens), and indeed I had no firm view one way or the other > till I read your comments. However you have now led me to have a view > which does indeed approve strongly of "turning in" offenders. Thank you > for clarifying the matter for me. It figures. Thank Gawd not all Aussies are self-satisfied rules- obeying little sheep like you. ~Pete > You're an idiot. It is *illegal* for eBay to force people into using > Paypal. It's called "restraint of trade" over here, and that's why > eBay still allows paper payments at all. Which is government interference in matters that should not concern them. >It's also why eBay cannot > force sellers to use PayPal, much as they'd like to. They are legally > *required* to leave those loopholes open, and your idea that eBay > should be free to make whatever rules they wish -the law > notwithstanding- and that we should all act like sheep and obey their > desires without question is frankly insane. It is their site, they should be able to set whatever rules they like. > Matter of fact, the powers that be in OZ feel the same way that I > do...and if you'd been paying attention you'd already know about it. > eBay *tried* to institute a "PayPal only" rule in OZ and NZ and were > promptly slapped down. Which was inappropriate government interference. > Because despite the fact that it would be a grand idea -and would make > you look better as well- I have no authority to tell you or anyone how > to behave. Likewise, neither you nor eBay has any authority to make > extra-legal rules and expect people to obey them. They should be able to set whatever rules they like. ebay should have every right to set the rules on their site. > It figures. Thank Gawd not all Aussies are self-satisfied rules- > obeying little sheep like you. Thank the non-existent gawd that not all Americans support government interference in matters that should be no concern of government. > Which is government interference in matters that should not concern them. . . . > It is their site, they should be able to set whatever rules they like. . . . > Which was inappropriate government interference. Gawd, what a load of Ayn Ranty bullcrap! Are you a 13 year old Ruper Murdoch wannabe living in his mothers basement? That's what you come on like. Get a little experience of the real world before your little mind sets up hard right. SignatureSteve >> Which is government interference in matters that should not concern them. > . . . [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > like. Get a little experience of the real world before your little mind > sets up hard right. Oh, so you are another one of the people like twybil who believes that government should interfere in private enterprise when the outcome of that interference is beneficial to you. I'll bet that if you or twybil found the government interference was heading in a direction that you don't like, you would be screaming about the injustice of it. > You're an idiot. It is *illegal* for eBay to force people into using > Paypal. It's called "restraint of trade" over here, and that's why [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > notwithstanding- and that we should all act like sheep and obey their > desires without question is frankly insane. Ebay is a business (not any different than the store down the street) as such they are permitted to operate as they see fit for their needs. If that means that they only accept payments from PayPal then so be it. If they decided that they want to be paid in cash, then that is the method of payment that people using their business will have to use. It's quite simple really. People that believe that businesses have to do what they want them to are sadly mistaken, they are the ones that make the decisions regarding their operations. > Ebay is a business (not any different than the store down the street) > as such they are permitted to operate as they see fit for their needs. > If that means that they only accept payments from PayPal then so be it. EBay _OWNS_ PayPal - so that's restraint of trade. Just WTF don't you get about it? You may now return to slobbering over your Meg Whitman poster. SignatureSteve > EBay _OWNS_ PayPal - so that's restraint of trade. Just WTF don't you > get about it? What they own is irrelevant. They have the right to decide to accept whatever form of payment and serve or refuse service to anyone. What part do you not understand? > > EBay _OWNS_ PayPal - so that's restraint of trade. Just WTF don't you > > get about it? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What part do you not understand? You mean you really don't comprehend that there are laws governing what businesses may and may not do, and that those laws are there because of the things businesses have done in the past? (Can you say "Great Depression"?) Wow! You could give Rush Limbaugh lessons in arrogance! ~Pete > You mean you really don't comprehend that there are laws governing > what businesses may and may not do, and that those laws are there > because of the things businesses have done in the past? (Can you say > "Great Depression"?) As a business owner I am allowed to decide what form of payment I accept, who I service and when I may stop serving my clients. > > You mean you really don't comprehend that there are laws governing > > what businesses may and may not do, and that those laws are there [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > As a business owner I am allowed to decide what form of payment I > accept, who I service and when I may stop serving my clients. Okay, that answers *that* question: you really *don't* understand. (A) You are not eBay, nor do you own PayPal. (B) If you live in the US, own a business, and own a bank as well, you may *not* require that all of your business clients deal *only* with that bank and that they must pay you a fee for doing so. It's called "restraint of trade", and it's a serious Federal no-no. (C) In the unlikely happenstance that you ever get big enough to actually own both a multi-million dollar business *and* a bank, and you try to require the above from your customers, you will one day awake to find yourself doing time at a Federal rock-hocky farm, and you will not be a happy camper. (D) I owned and ran a succesful retail business for 18 years, and unlike you I retained a business lawyer who carefully explained to me exactly what I could -and could *not*- do if I wanted to remain on good terms with the authorities. It was well worth the expense. (E) I suggest you do the same. > Okay, that answers *that* question: you really *don't* understand. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that bank and that they must pay you a fee for doing so. It's called > "restraint of trade", and it's a serious Federal no-no. Luckily I am not as unfortunate as you and do not now or ever want to lower my standards and live in the US. <drivel snipped for space> >> Okay, that answers *that* question: you really *don't* understand. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > <drivel snipped for space> In every country in the world you must accept cash as a form of payment. You can of course decide not to accept credit cards, but for most businesses that would be a bad decision. (Example: about 20 years ago, a model retailer in Austria lost about $500 worth of my business because he did not accept credit cards. The clerk told me it cost too much to do so. A few years later when I visited again, I noticed he accepted credit cards.) And in any community, if you aren't careful about whom, why, when and how you refuse service, customers will stay away. That's what happened when a local car dealership changed hands, and it service policies were changed by the new owner. The dealership closed within six months. Cheers, wolf k. > Luckily I am not as unfortunate as you and do not now or ever want to > lower my standards and live in the US. > > <drivel snipped for space> Glad you admitted it, and thankful you kept the drivel to one sentence. Attaboy. SignatureSteve > Luckily I am not as unfortunate as you and do not now or ever want to > lower my standards and live in the US. How cute. He thinks he wins something by flinging random sh.t against the wall in the hope that something will stick. Shrug. > Ebay is a business (not any different than the store down the street) > as such they are permitted to operate as they see fit for their needs. No. They may only operate within the limits of the law. > If that means that they only accept payments from PayPal then so be it. And that isn't legal, at least in the USA. > If they decided that they want to be paid in cash, then that is the > method of payment that people using their business will have to use. > It's quite simple really. People that believe that businesses have to do > what they want them to are sadly mistaken, they are the ones that make > the decisions regarding their operations. Watched the financial meltdown recently? Are you aware that it's primary cause was a bunch of unregulated businesses doing what they thought was best for *them* in the short term, and devil take the hindmost? That's *why* we have to have the government play watchdog. ~Pete What's really pathetic is that most of the people going to "tea bagging" rallies, reading Ayn Ranty screeds, buying into total laissez faire capitalism, are not the real beneficiaries of the policies they espouse, other than the psychic benefits they must get from associating themselves with the rich and obnoxious. I heard John Grisham (on Bill Moyers' Journal, I think it was) relate something his father said to him about politics in the South, to the effect that there were a lot of people who eat poor but vote rich. You have to admire, in a perverse sort of way, the ability of the wealthy elites and their religious and pseudo-populist allies/employees, to get people to betray their own interests. With the boogeymen of "socialism" and "the devil" and the dirty pleasures of racism, nativism and militarism, they sure have folks running scared witless. SignatureSteve > What's really pathetic is that most of the people going to "tea bagging" > rallies, reading Ayn Ranty screeds, buying into total laissez faire > capitalism, are not the real beneficiaries of the policies they espouse, > other than the psychic benefits they must get from associating themselves > with the rich and obnoxious. Alas, since I've seen some few "Obama's a Muslim" and "Obama's not a US citizen" signs being waved at these tea bagging parties, I have to assume that quite a few of those folks are not very tightly bolted to the floor. The American far right seems to be in shock over having lost the last elections, and somehow think that if they repeat the same lies over and over again, and make it louder each time, something will somehow change. (Shakes head and walks off muttering...) ~Pete > The American far right seems to be in shock over having lost the last > elections, and somehow think that if they repeat the same lies over > and over again, and make it louder each time, something will somehow > change. Well, it worked for Adolf . . . SignatureSteve >> If that means that they only accept payments from PayPal then so be it. > > And that isn't legal, at least in the USA. Don't know about credit/debit cards or checks, but you're definitely right when it comes to cash. Remember what it says: "Legal tender for all debts, public and private." Refusal to accept US currency in the US is illegal. SignatureIntelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw > Ebay is a business (not any different than the store down the street) > as such they are permitted to operate as they see fit for their needs. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > what they want them to are sadly mistaken, they are the ones that make > the decisions regarding their operations. Ebay sells nothing except advertising. The actual transaction occurs between the seller and buyer. The SELLER has the right to determine which forms of electronic payments, if any, he or she will accept. ---- Frank Provasek Rare Coins http://www.frankcoins.com Ebay FRANKCOINS Member ANA, Texas Numismatic Assoc, Texas Coin Dealers Assoc, PCGS, NGC, & ANACS authorized dealer, Texas Auctioneer Lic 11259 On 4/12/2009 11:17 PM a_a_a spake thus: >> Does not follow. Wanting to continue to give your customers a choice >> of ways to pay is not the same thing as refusing to use PayPal. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seller selfish in my view, and it is hypocritical then to accuse the > buyer of selfishness. [Just to be clear, I was the one who brought up the idea of not accepting PayPal at all, not Twibil, whose original complaint was about eBay's *forcing* buyers to *only* use PayPal] Judging from some of the other responses here, PayPal isn't even all that safe, which is why some were suggesting the circuitous method of paying the PayPal account with a credit card, enabling the buyer to get their money back in case of fraud or similar problems; something that apparently isn't always possible with the nice caring folks at PayPal. SignatureSave the Planet Kill Yourself - motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/) > Not stool pigeons, just ordinary buyers who object to sellers defying > rules. > > I (and several others I know) would simply not buy from a seller who did > that, on the grounds that if the seller can't be relied upon to comply > with one rule, ... [yatta yatta yatta bing ding ding] My, oh my, how low have the residents of Oz sunk from their honorable transportee past. Or is just a buncha pom bastards posing as aussies? SignatureSteve > My, oh my, how low have the residents of Oz sunk from their honorable > transportee past. Or is just a buncha pom bastards posing as aussies? It's "Aussies" with a big A; and just as you can't blame America in general for Sarah Palin, so it's unfair to blame OZ as a whole for one little twit who has an overwhelming compulsion to obey "the rules". *Any* rules. And apparently revels in turning in those who don't. (Likely the only power he has. I knew a Walter Mitty book-keeper like that once.) In fact, the various Aussie transplants I've known over here have all displayed a well-developed sense of individuality and a fine distain for authority. Why they're almost *American* that way... ~Pete > In fact, the various Aussie transplants I've known over here have all > displayed a well-developed sense of individuality and a fine distain > for authority. Yet YOU are the one that is promoting government interference in private trade. What a hypocrite you are. > On 4/12/2009 4:20 PM Rick Jones spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > happen is that they'll yank the auction; I really doubt that even that > will happen. We'll see. Found today in NG&SLG another auction site: http://www.upbids.net/asp/index.asp Available items for sale is just a tiny fraction of eBay's, but sellers are advertising that they accept checks and MOs, so I guess it not as restricted. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me How important does a person have to be before they are considered assassinated instead of just murdered? I thought you needed a PayPal account to even list?????????? > I thought you needed a PayPal account to even list?????????? A seller needs an account. A buyer doesn't. >A seller needs an account. A buyer doesn't.< Which is why I don't sell on ebay anymore (my institutions, CUs) don't do PayPal. Based on the fact I can't sell I don't buy much anymore either. Hope they are happy. |
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