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Model Forum / General / Railroads / July 2009Train Room
The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new possibilities of layout design. It has been a long time coming. The lighting will be natural light. The room when finished will have glass on three sides so will have plenty of illumination during the day. I haven't decided what I will do for lighting at night. Any suggestions on the kind of light to use?s John in the Indian Nations On 6/12/2009 9:49 PM NICHE541 spake thus: > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on the kind of light to use?s > John in the Indian Nations May you rot in hell (just kidding). I think this is what they call a "gloat".  SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > On 6/12/2009 9:49 PM NICHE541 spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I think this is what they call a "gloat". I'd worry more about people seeing in and theft than lighting for night ops. Not too mention the heat gain from all that glass - it's an easy bet you've got at least one wall that gets the full force of the sun. At least one thing on your layout would be prototypical - sun kinks in your trackwork! Hope you got a monster a/c unit for your space. SignatureJack N2MPU Proud NRA Life Member change nyob.com to verizon.net for email >I'd worry more about people seeing in and theft than lighting for night >ops. Not too mention the heat gain from all that glass - it's an easy >bet you've got at least one wall that gets the full force of the sun. At >least one thing on your layout would be prototypical - sun kinks in your >trackwork! >Hope you got a monster a/c unit for your space. The burglar alarm for our Train Room is linked to the one for the house. Air conditioning is a real problem with our setup. I didn't want to devote a 220 line for the purpose because that would have required upgrading the box for the house so I've used a large 110 unit and a separate portable plus column and ceiling fans. Still gets into the 90's--but it's a dry heat. :>) SignatureCarl Heinz cfheinz57@charter.net (Remove number) >> I'd worry more about people seeing in and theft than lighting for night >> ops. Not too mention the heat gain from all that glass - it's an easy [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > for the house so I've used a large 110 unit and a separate portable plus > column and ceiling fans. Still gets into the 90's--but it's a dry heat. :>) Carl Call an experienced Glass Person. They make a UV film that will reflect at least 50% of the heat. It's a commercial product and will pay for it self with the off set of cooling costs. That will help cut down room temps by 20 degrees. It will also help retain heat during the winter months. Mike M >>> I'd worry more about people seeing in and theft than lighting for >>> night ops. Not too mention the heat gain from all that glass - it's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > months. > Mike M And I trust you've used triple glazing and loads of insulation in the walls. cheers, wolf >>>> I'd worry more about people seeing in and theft than lighting for >>>> night ops. Not too mention the heat gain from all that glass - it's [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >cheers, >wolf My Train Room is a converted 18 x 30' greenhouse. I'm pretty sure an earlier description mentioned that the roof was replaced by commercial screen room ceiling panels which consists of an outer and inner aluminum layer with approx 3" of styrofoam as a sandwich. Most of the side walls have been covered with 4 x 8 corrugated plastic sheets to provide a surface for backdrops. Fiberglass insulation was placed between the fiberglass side walls and the plastic sheets. The floor is now a 4" concrete slab over the previous layer of approx 8" of crushed rock from greenhouse days. Although this tends to help maintain a more comfortable temperature during spring and early summer, the heat accumulation tends to retard night cooling. When it gets to the mid 60's outside, it's still the low 70's in the Train Room. I did retain a fairly large exhaust fan from greenhouse days that kicks in automatically when the inside temperature reaches the mid 80's. This helps keep the inside temperature down around 10 degrees when I'm not out there and prevents the inside temperature from reaching over the mid 90's. A large evaporative cooler served well when it was a greenhouse since I had the need to maintain humidity at least at 80% (phaelonopsis orchids). This was replaced by a large 110 window air conditioner since the high humidity was not something in which I wanted to keep my trains. I've supplemented this with a protable air conditioner, ceiling fans and column fans which I run when I'm out there. So I've had to find some non-standard solutions to a non-standard construction. The suggestions for the original poster who has a more "standard" structure should serve him well. SignatureCarl Heinz cfheinz57@charter.net (Remove number) >[...] > So I've had to find some non-standard solutions to a non-standard > construction. [...] Sounds good to me. Have fun! wolf k. In message <111e00b6-7ce8-4461-a94f-fed4547639b6@f19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>, NICHE541 <oikos541@yahoo.com> writes >The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" >connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >on the kind of light to use?s >John in the Indian Nations <sob, sob> You rotten, evil, sadist ! If you're trying to make people feel envious, especially us poor Brits with no room for even a small layout, you've succeeded. <sob, sob> Seriously though, congratulations on making your personal dream come true. If you're not already a member I'd suggest joining the NMRA. One thing about lighting for night time, I don't know exactly what is available where you live (our voltage is different and we must now use the latest 'green' low energy bulbs) but it may be worth having more than one lighting circuit, one (or more) of which can be dimmed to provide suitable night time light to best show off the lighted elements of your layout. As I said above there would most likely be someone in the NMRA who would be able to help you. Perhaps there's some person with knowledge of the electrical possibilities in your *local* area (not the UK or New Zealand!!). If there's anything I can do feel free to ask (although I won't be able to get back to you until I get back from Canada at beginning of July) Having said all that, when should I be booking my flights for the first 'open day@ ? :-)) SignatureMike Hughes Marketing Co-ordinator NMRA British Region Modelling the North American Way Interested in American trains real and model? Look here http://mikehughes627.fotopic.net/ In message <111e00b6-7ce8-4461-a94f-fed4547639b6@f19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>, NICHE541 <oikos541@yahoo.com> writes > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on the kind of light to use?s > John in the Indian Nations Lighting will be the least of your worries when the missus discovers that you have alternate plans for HER sunroom! SignatureMike "A man who thinks of himself as belonging to a particular national group in America has not yet become an American. And the man who goes among you to trade upon your nationality is no worthy son to live under the Stars and Stripes." -- Woodrow Wilson >The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" >connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >on the kind of light to use?s >John in the Indian Nations Sounds great. RE: all that natural light! It will fade the colors on nearly everything, strong stuff sunlight. Might want to design in some sort of indirect lighting and UV filtering. Jim On 6/13/2009 11:57 AM Jim spake thus: >> The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" >> connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > nearly everything, strong stuff sunlight. Might want to design in some > sort of indirect lighting and UV filtering. I wouldn't worry about it unless you get direct sunlight in the windows, which, it's true, will fade stuff. SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > On 6/13/2009 11:57 AM Jim spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I wouldn't worry about it unless you get direct sunlight in the windows, > which, it's true, will fade stuff. Weathering ... NICHE541 <oikos541@yahoo.com> wrote in news:111e00b6-7ce8-4461-a94f- fed4547639b6@f19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com: > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on the kind of light to use?s > John in the Indian Nations White LEDs for the locomotive headlights, and streetlights, lots of streetlights. Add in a few building lights here and there (maybe a porch light or two also), and you've got yourself a really cool looking night time layout. For general lighting, many people seem to prefer either hidden or directional lights. Conventional incandescant bulbs will be easier to dim, but flourescent bulbs will run much cooler and use less energy. Puckdropper Signature"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on rec.woodworking To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on the kind of light to use?s > John in the Indian Nations Windows in a "trainroom " ? All that space and windows that will be blocked by backdrops ? Tsk tsk tsk, most model railroaders close in all the windows. By the way, what size is the room ? > > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > By the way, what size is the room ? There will be curtains that will cut out all daylight if wanted. There is also installed UV filtering on the double paned windows. Plenty of room for back drop as the room is 20x22. This is not gloating just 30 years of planning. The Mrs has been deceased for 11 years so no problems there. HO scale at a desk top elivation and O Scale on the floor for the grandsons. This is how I shall end my days. John in the Indian Nations On 6/17/2009 10:25 AM NICHE541 spake thus: > Plenty of room for back drop as the room is 20x22. This is not > gloating just 30 years of planning. A 20x22 train room and you're not gloating? Don't worry--you're entitled to it. Any of us would in your place. SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > On 6/17/2009 10:25 AM NICHE541 spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism 128 x 24 with NO windows. On 6/17/2009 11:02 PM the OTHER Mike spake thus: >> On 6/17/2009 10:25 AM NICHE541 spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > 128 x 24 with NO windows. I get it--you're in a club, right? SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > On 6/17/2009 11:02 PM the OTHER Mike spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism Yes, figured I would never have anything larger then maybe 24 x 24 ( in my dreams ). My trainroom as a kid was 24 x 8 with a 5' ceiling ( was a storage room over the garage). When I found the club I figured why try to do anything at home. I live maybe 20 blocks from the club and have 24 hour access..............I'm BLESSED. If it were not for the founding members ( who started as kids in the 50's) buying the building in 73, I would not have what we have now. NOT gloating, just very BLESSED and apprectiave of how fortunate I am. > > > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > > > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Scale on the floor for the grandsons. This is how I shall end my days. > John in the Indian Nations I am a retired physics professor with a love for model railroading and a love for wildlife,flora and fauna. The windows allow observation during the day as well as at night when I choose. No I am not a club member, I was once but now I live out in the wilderness and it is not practical to travel to the city. I am amazed by the negative response by some people in this group. Some people spend their money on new cars etc. I choose to drive a 1987 ford pickup and spend the money I would spend on a new vehicle on a new room.. I have no debts nor credit cards. Someone ask the size so I told them. If that sounds like gloating then it is their problem not mine. I hope everyone here can build a bigger one before the end of their life. If you can conceive a goal and believe it you can achieve it. You can do anything you want to do in this country . It is up to you. Work Hard and save your money. John in the Indian Nations John- My train room is a former 18x30' fiberglass and steel frame greenhouse. The ceiling needed to be replaced since the filon panels leaked. It's now a series of aluminum/styrofoam sandwich panels. The crushed rock floor was replaced with a concrete slab and the evaporative cooler was replaced with a window air conditioner supplemented by a portable. I still use the overhead gas heater I used when it was a greenhouse. I opted to cover most of the walls with 4x8 plastic sandwich panels with insulation wedged between the panels and the fiberglass. This was done primarily for two reasons. The first was that of trying to get some control over temperature. The second was to provide a surface for backdrops. Most folks will warn you against fluorescent lighting. I use it. However, I only have the stock currently in use actually on the layout. The balance is stored in a series of utility carts which slide under the layout. I can't really discuss scale related issues since it's my understanding that your primary layout is HO. Mine is 3 rail O with an emphasis on 1/4 scale. I only run TMCC command and don't run conventional. So, the power comes from a series of Lionel Track Power Controllers (TPC's) and 180w Lionel power packs. Although I have a control panel, I don't use it very much. Such things as switching are now also controlled using Lionel SC-2 switch controllers. About the only thing I still use the control panel for is uncoupling. I haven't rigged them for TMCC control. Might someday. I use AtlasO track and switches. My response is probably a bit of overkill to your basic lighting question. Structure and vehicle lighting are 12VDC warm whites. I have a separate power supply for this function. I use LED's from Evan Designs ( www.ModelTrainSoftware.com ). I also like their Model Builder software package for such things as making scale signs. Their import function is quite handy for making unique signs and you can select the desired scale. Hope this helps. SignatureCarl Heinz cfheinz57@charter.net (Remove number) On 6/18/2009 12:11 PM NICHE541 spake thus: > I am amazed by the negative response by some people in this group. I think you misunderstand. > Someone ask the size so I told them. If that sounds like gloating > then it is their problem not mine. You don't get it; gloating is a *good* thing. I'd do it if I was building a train room that size. (It's all meant in fun.) > I hope everyone here can build a bigger one before the end of their > life. Me too. SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > > > > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > > > > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Sorry if I came off negative, it's just strange ( to me ) to have windows in a train room. I believe in lineal layouts with backdrops. Don't worry about anyone thinking you are gloating, maybe they are just jealous. > I am a retired physics professor *snip* Mind a random physics related question? In a 0-G environment (such as space is often portrayed), wouldn't things tend to stay exactly where they were rather than all of a sudden float up? Puckdropper Signature"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on rec.woodworking To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm > Mind a random physics related question? In a 0-G environment (such as > space is often portrayed), wouldn't things tend to stay exactly where they > were rather than all of a sudden float up? Um, do you mean "suddenly float up" as in what they might do if/when acceleration suddenly ceased? Depends. Could happen several way. (A) Big rockets such as space vehicles shake like *crazy* while they're thrusting, and inertia keeps the ship vibrating like a tuning fork for a second or two after the engines shut down, so this motion would tend to push anything that wasn't anchored down away from whatever it was touching. (B) If the object in question had any "spring" to it (and many things do) the sudden cessation of acceleration would cause that compressed potential energy to unload and "spring" the object away from it's contact point. (C) When acceleration ceases, some things in the cabin of a space vehicle keep moving. Things such as the air, which is circulated with fans so that stagnant spots of Co2 don't develop. Since weight goes away with acceleration, but mass doesn't, anything loose in the spacecraft's cabin will be blown about: relatively massive objects such as astronauts will take a while to begin moving, but objects of very low mass -such as dust or pieces of paper- will promptly begin drifting around in the air currents. (And this is why spacecraft are assembled in "clean rooms".) All of the above probably explain why space vehicles and the things that go into them are so throughly equipped with velcro surfaces, zippers, latching drawers, and the like. You pick up the strangest things when you teach at a college and hang out in the Physics department... ~Pete >> Mind a random physics related question? In a 0-G environment (such >> as space is often portrayed), wouldn't things tend to stay exactly [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > ~Pete What brought the question up was a small segment I caught of 2001: A Space Odyssey. A man had a food tray on his lap, and let go of it to talk to another one. The tray then started floating up on its own like a helium balloon. If really in 0-G, I would have though it'd stay in place, or if it did start moving it'd just creep. Puckdropper Signature"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on rec.woodworking To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm > What brought the question up was a small segment I caught of 2001: A > Space Odyssey. A man had a food tray on his lap, and let go of it to > talk to another one. The tray then started floating up on its own like a > helium balloon. If really in 0-G, I would have though it'd stay in > place, or if it did start moving it'd just creep. You assume he let go of it with perfect symmetry and did not impart any acceleration to it in any direction - pretty hard to do/ SignatureSteve > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on the kind of light to use?s > John in the Indian Nations Niche541, When I finished our "bonus room" over our new garage, I used trac lighting. I had the contractor assist with two separate circuits in the room. The advantages are that as the layout changes or I work on different areas, I can move & swivel lights to provide plenty of light for working areas. I can also use spots to highlight special areas like my 85' high (scale of course) curved wooden trestle. I also like the "warm" look of incandescents in available light photos. Obviously if you have a double deck for the HO layout, you will need something under the upper deck to light the lower one and trac probably wouldn't work there. The same might be true for your O scale stuff at floor level. Keep in mind that asking a question of ten modelers will get you at least 11 answers cause at least one of them has two opinions! Don't take most of the responses here as being negative. While there are a couple of people who don't like to "play nice," the rest of us will have some good natured fun at others' expense from time to time. And yes, anyone with a new, "dedicated" train room (myself included) is fair game for obvious, envious remarks. : ) Your needs & desires may vary but that's what I did. dlm Dan, Perhaps you and others can offer some experience or suggestions, or even speculations, for my problem. THE SETUP: I have an above garage space that will be a few inches over 16' x 23' - but that's under a 45 degree roofline that intersects the long walls at 54" above floor level. With this in mind I've had to plan a layout height ranging from 40" to 48", with a staging return loop with three passing tracks dropping from the 40" level to 37" (most of that will be below an end wall and curve around under the 48" area along one long wall. The basic concept is that of a mythical southern Indiana branch line, the Big Fork and Diehl RR (reporting mark BFD), that leases engine service and critical area trackage rights with some class 1 lines (Wabash, Nickel Plate and possibly even C&O - I'd like to see a 2-8-8-2 dragging in empties and schlepping away 20-car coal drags, in addition to NKP Berks towing reefers stopping for re-icing and a Wabash P-1 4-6-4 heading up a train of blue heavyweight cars with a Bluebird drumhead at the end of the observation car), and has it's own out and back run from the big yard up to the mines and branch terminal, shuffling hoppers, reefers full of Buxom Melons, and cars of cement and limestone slabe as well as miscellaneous freight and local passenger service. Along the West long wall, 40" level, track enters from staging loop via tunnel near North short wall and enters the long double ended interchange yard, passenger station, engine service area, shops and MoW yard at Big Fork, returning via balloon loop in southwest corner; West side of balloon loop also goes: 1) along West wall headed North into tunnel and begins down grade to connect to staging loop 2) between that track and the return side of the balloon loop begins 2% grade headed North, crossing North entrance from staging at 44", then East, doing a 35" radius climbing loop around the Piedmont peninsula (station, cement plant, limestone quarry, and a melon farm - the liftout access in the middle of it) crossing over itself at 48" and continuing East then South along East wall to a 33" baloon loop with a wye, small yard, engine terminal and station at Diehl at the south end; two coal mines are in the Northeast corner and along the outside (West) of the East side balloon. Various small industries such as stock watering, REA, coal and fuel dealers, brewery, produce distributor, steel fabricator, chicken packer, grain elevator, scrap yard, etc. are scattered around Big Fork, Piedmont and Diehl, offering lots of switching activity for BFnD way freights. Stair access is in center of south short wall. NOW - THE QUESTIONS: that East wall area at 48" height will have just 6" of vertical wall for backdrop before hitting the 45 degree slope of the ceiling (rises to 8 feet, then flat across the center) I'm concerned about how to handle the transition from vertrical to slant (small radius coved? - and don't even mention the corners!), and wondering about lighting. Track lights sound attractive - mounted behind a valence perhaps. I'm thinking the backdrop color should be a fairly pale blue to reflect more light, but am concerned about complex shadows and color cast. Our president, Heinrich "Big Harry" Diehl, leader of the Big Fork'n' Diehl, home of Silverplate Service, thanks you for your thoughts. SignatureSteve snip > NOW - THE QUESTIONS: that East wall area at 48" height will have just > 6" of vertical wall for backdrop before hitting the 45 degree slope of the > ceiling (rises to 8 feet, then flat across the center) > > I'm concerned about how to handle the transition from vertrical to slant > (small radius coved? - and don't even mention the corners!), It all depends ---- IF your viewing is all from a single location, then 'backdrop' scenery can cross the verticle to slant juncture without a lot of problem. But if the viewing is from several directions, you will have a lot of 'distortion' to try and explain/ live with. Chuck D. > and > wondering about lighting. Track lights sound attractive - mounted behind [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Our president, Heinrich "Big Harry" Diehl, leader of the Big Fork'n' Diehl, > home of Silverplate Service, thanks you for your thoughts. On 6/19/2009 12:06 PM Steve Caple spake thus: > Perhaps you and others can offer some experience or suggestions, or even > speculations, for my problem. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (small radius coved? - and don't even mention the corners!), and > wondering about lighting. This is the only small part of your problems that I thought I'd comment on. How about having the backdrop seamlessly make a transition* to the ceiling along that wall (gentle radius, as large as possible), and make that the "outward looking" edge of the layout? You know, the western edge, where the skies are not cloudy all day, etc. (Although surely the skies will look better with some nice big cumulus clouds in them.) * I'm sorry, but "transition" was never meant to be a verb. (One doesn't "transition to" something; one makes a transition to it.) SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism [..] > * I'm sorry, but "transition" was never meant to be a verb. (One doesn't > "transition to" something; one makes a transition to it.) Making nouns out of verbs and vice versa is easy and natural for English. (Actually, it's more accurate to think of "noun" and "verb" as positions in a sentence, that is, as syntactic functions rather than word classes or "parts of speech". English is a highly analytic language, much more like Chinese than Latin.) Many verbs were once used exclusively as nouns, and vice versa - they've just become widely used in both functions, is all, and sound perfectly natural now. Anglo-Saxon words usually have the same form for both, in fact. Latin words usually require a nominal or verbal suffix, but that requirement is disappearing as fewer and fewer speakers learn Latin, and the awareness of the Latin patterns fades. Your objection to "transition" as a verb merely means that for you "to transition" is not yet a natural-sounding verb. I share your feelings, but am not as het up about it all. cheers, wolf k. On 6/19/2009 3:42 PM Wolf K spake thus: > [..] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > transition" is not yet a natural-sounding verb. I share your feelings, > but am not as het up about it all. OK. "Transition" I'll give you as an iffy case. But "grow" used as a transitive verb? *That* I'll fight you on! (As in "we plan to grow our business".) SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > On 6/19/2009 3:42 PM Wolf K spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > (As in "we plan to grow our business".) Er, uh, arguing with yourself? BTW, many Iowa farmers grow corn. Pretty transitive, no? But "growing a business" bugs me for the biz school marketing speak flavor. If you hear anyone use the word "rebranding" without heavy sarcasm, smack the ignorant bastard down. The REAL misuse is that beloved of DoD bureaucrats, using impact as a verb. SignatureSteve > On 6/19/2009 3:42 PM Wolf K spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > (As in "we plan to grow our business".) So what don't you grow in your garden? :-) wolf k. >> OK. "Transition" I'll give you as an iffy case. But "grow" used as a >> transitive verb? *That* I'll fight you on! > So what don't you grow in your garden? He grows plants. Very transitively. Now you can complain about 'plants' being both a noun and a verb, as in 'he plants plants'. On 6/19/2009 6:25 PM Wolf K spake thus: >> On 6/19/2009 3:42 PM Wolf K spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > So what don't you grow in your garden? Hmm; I guess it's not precisely the use of "grow" as a verb (tr.), but its use with an improper object. It's OK to say "I'm growing some high-quality sinsemmila", but not OK to say "we're going to grow our marijuana dispensary business". Or at least it wasn't OK when I was growing up. (OK, language is constantly changing*, yadda yadda ... ) * I remember when I took calculus finding that there is actually a formula governing the rate at which words change in a language. SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > On 6/19/2009 6:25 PM Wolf K spake thus: [...] >> So what don't you grow in your garden? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > * I remember when I took calculus finding that there is actually a > formula governing the rate at which words change in a language. It's the metaphor of business as a plant that offends me. That, and the implication that you can make things grow the way you want. cheers, wolf k. > It's the metaphor of business as a plant that offends me. That, and the > implication that you can make things grow the way you want. You are easily offended. > I'm concerned about how to handle the transition from vertrical to slant > (small radius coved? - and don't even mention the corners!), and > wondering about lighting. Track lights sound attractive - mounted behind > a valence perhaps. I'm thinking the backdrop color should be a fairly pale > blue to reflect more light, but am concerned about complex shadows and > color cast. You don't say what the distance from the track to the wall is. One thing that comes to mind is don't run the track parallel to the wall under the break from vert to 45°. Put trees, hilly scenery, building flats or shallow buildings etc between the track and wall to break the line formed by the ceiling and wall, i.e., hide the straight line behind scenery. Make sure that the lighting doesn't cast shadows on the wall. You name eastern RRs. The sky at the horizon should be nearly white (actually light gray). SignatureFred Lotte flotte@nospam.stratos.net On 6/20/2009 11:15 AM Fred Lotte spake thus: > Put trees, hilly scenery, building flats or shallow buildings etc > between the track and wall to break the line formed by the > ceiling and wall, i.e., hide the straight line behind scenery. It would be better to eliminate the break entirely by coving it over. Often done in such situations using thin plywood, masonite, etc. (Or just by using drywall mud and tape.) SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > Dan, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Diehl, > home of Silverplate Service, thanks you for your thoughts. First, that wouldn't bother me all that much but if it bothers you, then I'd consider the following: As someone else mentioned, you could use a thin plywood or Masonite to round off the intersection of the vertical & sloped wall sections. I can't remember what it was called, but when I was in college, we used a material that was kind of like a thick matte board to build rounded sections of stage sets. You could also consider something like linoleum that could be glued &nd would nicely curve to cover up the wall joint. You might also consider moving that edge of the layout forward more to be able to better hide the transition. In my room, I have a similar sounding wall/ceiling combination. I moved that edge of the layout forward a few feet and put my staging in that area behind a false wall. On the false wall, I painted a blue sky & some varying colored hills. My layout loosely represents Eastern Ohio so the hills are a little more plausible than in Southern Indiana. Something else to consider... Is there a way that you could fill in the foreground with buildings, other releif structures etc? Make them easily removeable to gain access to the stuff behind them. But with only six inches, it wouldn't take that tall of a building to cover / hide the transition. dlm > You could also consider something like linoleum that could be glued > &nd would nicely curve to cover up the wall joint. I think that might serve best. I'm looking at ways to gain a couple more inches out from that east wall. Relief buildings aren't really in the mix, as many other clues indicate the area would be open country. I anticipate a low berm topped bu scrub and small trees, with "flat" trees right on thte backdrop; the backdrop being probably just sky color, with perhaps distant low hazed hills at the very bottom. btw, there are some hills, and wonderful limestone bluffs, in southern Indiana. SignatureSteve >> You could also consider something like linoleum that could be glued >> &nd would nicely curve to cover up the wall joint. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > btw, there are some hills, and wonderful limestone bluffs, in southern > Indiana. Think in terms of using the BACK side of the linoleum... no visible patterns there. If you are a MODEL RAILROADER subscriber, take a look at the video that's up where Tony K. talks about his Indiana cornfields. He talks about using scenic photo backdrops then a very shallow layer of 3D stuff to give the illusion of depth. I hink he said something like the photo is at the back, then about three rows of corn plants and then fencing or other shrubbery. Such an approach might work for you as well. As to the topography of Indiana, especially to the south, I'm guessing it is much like the area I grew up in, the northern Ohio Valley in the Wheeling-Steubenville area. The river had a lot to do with what was cut out there a few hundred thousand years ago. I guess I just didn't know how far south you were modeling in Indiana. When you mentioned the Nickel Plate, I was thinking farther north. dlm Seems to me you have daylight during the day and should provide typical night lighting on the layout itself like lamp posts and yard spotlight towers for when you run at night, would seem to make it more realistic and interesting. "The room when finished will have glass > on three sides so will have plenty of illumination during the day. I > haven't decided what I will do for lighting at night. Any suggestions > on the kind of light to use?s > Seems to me you have daylight during the day and should provide typical > night lighting on the layout itself like lamp posts and yard spotlight [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> haven't decided what I will do for lighting at night. Any suggestions >> on the kind of light to use?s You need a mix of flourescents and incandecent. Flourescents and "energy saver" bulbs will give odd colour effects. Incandescent bulbs will give a warm appearance light. You need a higher light output than would be normal in a home situation when you are modelling, about normal home lighting level for viewing/operation and a lower "toe stubbing" level for "night time" operation. Probably the simplest way to do that is to have 3 seperate overall lighting circuits so you can choose your light level. One of those circuits can be on a dimmer. Greg.P. > You need a mix of flourescents and incandecent. > Flourescents and "energy saver" bulbs will give odd colour effects. Don't you mean fluorescents and incandescent, Greg? Has your perfection failed you today? You know we all (especially Ray) rely on you being perfect. >> You need a mix of flourescents and incandecent. >> Flourescents and "energy saver" bulbs will give odd colour effects. > > Don't you mean fluorescents and incandescent, Greg? Has your perfection > failed you today? You know we all (especially Ray) rely on you being > perfect. If it helps, I'm suffering from the winter flu. Greg.P. On 6/30/2009 8:07 PM Greg.Procter spake thus: >> Seems to me you have daylight during the day and should provide typical >> night lighting on the layout itself like lamp posts and yard spotlight [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Flourescents and "energy saver" bulbs will give odd colour effects. > Incandescent bulbs will give a warm appearance light. Ackshooly, if you knew anything about lighting, you'd know that fluorescents (note spelling), including CFLs, come in many colors, from "daylight" (5,000-6,400 Kelvin) to warm white (2,700 K). (Maybe in NZ they only come in one color.) You can mix fluorescents and incandescents for the desired color and effect. Maybe use some concentrated lights, like mini-spots or small halogen lights, for lighting particular scenes or parts of scenes. SignatureFound--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism > On 6/30/2009 8:07 PM Greg.Procter spake thus: >> You need a mix of flourescents and incandecent. >> Flourescents and "energy saver" bulbs will give odd colour effects. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "daylight" (5,000-6,400 Kelvin) to warm white (2,700 K). (Maybe in NZ > they only come in one color.) In NZ they come not only in the standard range but also a special version for Greg, known as ultra-dull. It attempts to cast light on everything but actually produces only total gloom. >> On 6/30/2009 8:07 PM Greg.Procter spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > version for Greg, known as ultra-dull. It attempts to cast light on > everything but actually produces only total gloom. Hmm, I'm sure everyone has noticed that I attempted to give a reasoned answer while you as always go for insults. Regards, Greg.P. > On 6/30/2009 8:07 PM Greg.Procter spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fluorescents (note spelling), including CFLs, come in many colors, from > "daylight" (5,000-6,400 Kelvin) to warm white (2,700 K). That's very true, however I feel that the "daylight" colour isn't very natural when one is trying to represent the broad spectrum of natures colours. Perhaps it's the difference between NZ's relatively unpolluted atmosphere and that where the tubes are manufactured - or perhaps my eyes need recalibrating? > (Maybe in NZ they only come in one color.) I think the US has more problems with colour than NZ does. > You can mix fluorescents and incandescents for the desired color and > effect. Maybe use some concentrated lights, like mini-spots or small > halogen lights, for lighting particular scenes or parts of scenes. >> On 6/30/2009 8:07 PM Greg.Procter spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > that where the tubes are manufactured - or perhaps my eyes need > recalibrating? Eyes do need recalibrating. With time, the lenses tend to darken and produce a warmer, more yellow image. Found this out when I had the lens replaced in my right eye. Now when I close my left eye everything is bright white and shiny new. When I close the right, everything is weathered. > Eyes do need recalibrating. With time, the lenses tend to darken and produce > a warmer, more yellow image. Found this out when I had the lens replaced in > my right eye. Now when I close my left eye everything is bright white and > shiny new. When I close the right, everything is weathered. Can happen without the intervention af age, too. My right eye has always seen things red-shifted, and my left has always emphasised the blues. When I look directly at a colored object and rapidly alternate eyes, the color change is fairly dramatic. So the old grade-school question -how do we know if the person next to us is seeing the very same colors we are- is valid after all: We don't! ~Pete On Jul 1, 4:46 pm, "LD" <lobby.dos...@verizon.net> wrote: > Eyes do need recalibrating. With time, the lenses tend to darken and > produce > a warmer, more yellow image. Found this out when I had the lens replaced > in > my right eye. Now when I close my left eye everything is bright white and > shiny new. When I close the right, everything is weathered. Can happen without the intervention af age, too. My right eye has always seen things red-shifted, and my left has always emphasised the blues. When I look directly at a colored object and rapidly alternate eyes, the color change is fairly dramatic. So the old grade-school question -how do we know if the person next to us is seeing the very same colors we are- is valid after all: We don't! ~Pete -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doc says I can get the left eye done any time. Not sure what life will be like with a Pair of 20 year old eyes in a 66 year old head ... [...] > So the old grade-school question -how do we know if the person next to > us is seeing the very same colors we are- is valid after all: We > don't! We don't even see the same _differences_ between colours, as shown by "colour blindness". And it's the reason that debates about the 'correct" or "prototypical" colours are often beside the point. What matters is a consistent (and toned down) palette, which gives an overall impression of (at least plausible) reality. This was John Allen's great insight. Sellios, McClelland and many others used it, too. > ~Pete > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Doc says I can get the left eye done any time. Not sure what life will > be like with a Pair of 20 year old eyes in a 66 year old head ... Go for it. You can always buy sunglasses... ;-) cheers, wolf k. >>> On 6/30/2009 8:07 PM Greg.Procter spake thus: >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > bright white and shiny new. When I close the right, everything is > weathered. Hmmm, that's either great when you do weathering of rolling stock, or very confusing! ;-) Greg.P. > On 6/30/2009 8:07 PM Greg.Procter spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "daylight" (5,000-6,400 Kelvin) to warm white (2,700 K). (Maybe in NZ they > only come in one color.) Ever tried aquarium actinics (blue)? Seems like they might be good for night scenes. In the course of looking for a new 'train room' with a house on top, AKA basement, I asked my broker to check out the info for a house of interest. She sent me the response from the seller's broker that included the phrase 'Its perfect for a model RxR hobbyist.' which inspired me to attempt this list. A _'perfect'_ basement for a model RR would: 1. have no walkout 2. have 12 block high walls with no windows 3. be ABSOLUTELY dry and dust free 4. not have any cute little alcoves 5. probably be 'L' shaped or rectangular minimum 1500-1600 sqft usable space 6. have NOTHING else in the basement (furnace, water heater, pumps, tanks, electric service entrance, fireplace, any and all other utilities and services would be somewhere else*) 7. have one or 2 walls about 60-70 feet long and no wall shorter than 30 feet 8. have ABSOLUTELY nothing (i.e. stairway or any of the prohibited devices [item 6]) within 5 feet of any outside wall 9. have 2 stairways one of which leads to a woodworking shop area (the garage) and will pass 4x8 plywood or 16 foot dimensional lumber, the second leads to the hall near the guest bathroom and both can be used for evacuation if necessary 10. have walls, floor and ceiling coated or finished with a smooth, paintable, dust free surface 11. have electric outlets located about 3 feet high off the floor spaced about 12 feet apart with conduit embedded in the wall 12. have a single switch for all power and a separate switch(s) for lights located at the bottom of the stairway 13. have 2 levels of illumination 1 for construction/maintenance and 1 for operations/display 14. not have upper floor supports in inconvenient places 15. may have a small sink as long as it obeys item 8 (maybe it's in the little space under a stairway) 16. not be subject to flooding, ever! 17. be climate controlled 18. probably not exist in the real world 19. probably never be big enough even though it's perfect ;-) *As a practical matter, all utilities could be in the same corner near the big stairway to the garage. Based on discussions here, I may alter item 13 ;-) SignatureFred Lotte Still looking after 22 months flotte@nospam.stratos.net Hi, > The contractors just poured the concrete for my new "train room" > connected to my house. My imagination is now going wild with the new Gratulations! ;-) Want one, too ;-) > possibilities of layout design. It has been a long time coming. The > lighting will be natural light. The room when finished will have glass > on three sides so will have plenty of illumination during the day. I Just a thought - you could use semi-opaque shutters to keep the direct sunlight out (and thus preserve the vibrant colors of your models), but still have lots of illumination. You just need to find the right kind of shutters ;-) Probably use some kind of white or off-white cloth? > haven't decided what I will do for lighting at night. Any suggestions > on the kind of light to use?s Night lighting... It would be fancy to provide only very minor illumination from above (so to say "moonlight") and illuminate the trains, buildings and structures on the layout. You'd need some "real" light which would be used for "disaster relief", but running would occur under "moonlit night" conditions ;-) Though it's your layout and that does mean it's up to you to decide what to do with it! Have fun and enjoy! Ciao... PS: the more I think about it, the better I like the idea of "segments" - even when there's no "standard" interface, it's possible to rearrange the segments with much less work than a fixed layout. Of course the segments would be coupled using screws and should share legs (save cost and work). A module layout might be great also, but I'm not so sure whether the module interfaces are too great a restriction... Though it might be good to have a module interface between some of the segments ;-) . >> possibilities of layout design. It has been a long time coming. The >> lighting will be natural light. The room when finished will have glass [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > still have lots of illumination. You just need to find the right kind of > shutters ;-) Probably use some kind of white or off-white cloth? Motorized storm shutters mounted on the outside of the windows? Would provide variable lighting during the day. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me Freedom is the distance between church and state. |
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