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Model Forum / General / Railroads / September 2009



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European freight yard operations vs US Operations

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Val Kraut - 29 Aug 2009 14:08 GMT
I asked a question a while back that probably was too narrow to get a
detailed answer. Basically the US and European coupler systems are
different. This has to lead to a difference in how yard operations, in
assembling a freight train are performed. If I remember right from books I
read many years ago in some US yards a box car could be pushed onto a
slooped section and allowed to coast and automatically couple to the end of
a freight. With the European coupler I would exoect you would "gently" move
the new car to the end of the freight - perform the hookup and then back off
the yard switcher engine. Where can I get details of this.

                                               Val Kraut
Christopher A. Lee - 29 Aug 2009 14:42 GMT
>I asked a question a while back that probably was too narrow to get a
>detailed answer. Basically the US and European coupler systems are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>the new car to the end of the freight - perform the hookup and then back off
>the yard switcher engine. Where can I get details of this.

Yes, but not particularly gently. The buffers would be compressed so
the chain had enough slack to hook it up.

Britain and (I think) the rest of Europe had what they called "hump"
marshalling yards which sound a bit like the sloped section you talk
about - the wagons were pushed over a small hill and then freewheeled
through a fan of turnouts onto the right track. There were retarders
to slow the wagons down to the right speed.The only real difference
was that coupling up was done manually.

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r135.html

>                                                Val Kraut
Roger T. - 29 Aug 2009 17:05 GMT
"Christopher A. Lee"

> Yes, but not particularly gently. The buffers would be compressed so
> the chain had enough slack to hook it up.

1)  The don't use a "chain" in Europe, it's "coupler", in Europe usually a
"screw coupler" and in the UK they used three types.  The "three link", the
"instanter" and the "screw" coupler.

2)  Europe and the UK are two different entities.  I can only speak for the
UK.

The three link coupler was only used on freight cars that had no automatic
brake.  The three link coupler leaves a gap between the buffers and thus an
unfitted (Unbraked) freight has a fair bit of slack.

The instanter coupler was used on fitted (braked) freight cars and was
cheaper than a screw coupler and was used to limit the amount of slack
between freight cars.

The screw coupler was used on all passenger cars, though some used knuckle
(Buckeye in UKese) couplers and on passenger rated freight cars.   When
coupling up screw couplers the cars are pushed together (gently) to compress
the buffers and the screw coupler is tightened up so as to eliminate any
slack between the vehicles.  When the train loco couples up to a passenger
train, the loco "sets back" so that the buffers between the loco and the
first passenger car compress, the screw coupler is then tightened to
eliminate slack.  Unlike a North American passenger train, a UK passenger
train has no slack, zero.  It's one complete unit from nose to tail.

> Britain and (I think) the rest of Europe had what they called "hump"
> marshalling yards which sound a bit like the sloped section you talk
> about .......

Almost all countries that had railways/railroads probably had hump yards.
The still do in North America though they've all closed in the UK.

As with most hump yards the "bowl", all the yard tracks, were usually very
gently sloped away from the hump and then level for something like 3/4s or
2/3rds of their final length.  Something like that and it probably varied
between gentle slope and no slope.  Freight cars came over the hump and were
braked by retarders, automatic in "modern" yards and manually operated in
older yards.  Once the car are sorted, they are (usually) moved over to a
departure yard when the various blocks of cars are made up into a train, the
caboose or these days the EOT is attached, the cars connected to yard air to
charge the brake system and at some time before departure, the power is
attached to the head end.

I think the original question asked if cars in North America were pushed and
let to roll freely onto the rear of trains but were pushed onto trains in
Europe.

The answer is "No", cars were never let to roll freely onto trains in North
America.  When attaching a block of cars to a train, they are always pushed
by a locomotive and never let to free wheel onto the end of a train.  You
need to define "train" as a "train", contrary to what the media and the
unwashed masses think, isn't a freight car.

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Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Christopher A. Lee - 29 Aug 2009 17:32 GMT
>"Christopher A. Lee"
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>"screw coupler" and in the UK they used three types.  The "three link", the
>"instanter" and the "screw" coupler.

I know - I was trying to use simplified language because "Kraut: is
not an English name.
Roger T. - 29 Aug 2009 18:05 GMT
>>> Yes, but not particularly gently. The buffers would be compressed so
>>> the chain had enough slack to hook it up.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I know - I was trying to use simplified language because "Kraut: is
> not an English name.

Niether's my last name.  :-)

It's French in origin.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Christopher A. Lee - 29 Aug 2009 19:40 GMT
>>>> Yes, but not particularly gently. The buffers would be compressed so
>>>> the chain had enough slack to hook it up.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>It's French in origin.

There was also the "feel" of the question.
Wolf K - 29 Aug 2009 22:25 GMT
[...] Unlike a North American passenger train, a UK passenger
> train has no slack, zero.  It's one complete unit from nose to tail.
>[...]

Erm, Roger, on our trip to Alberta with Via last year, I noticed no
slack. Several times I didn't realise were moving until we hit a rail
joint (the train took siding for almost every freight train, and in N.
Ontario almost all sidings had jointed track.)

cheers,
wolf k.
Roger T. - 29 Aug 2009 23:09 GMT
"> [...] Unlike a North American passenger train, a UK passenger
>> train has no slack, zero.  It's one complete unit from nose to tail.
>>[...]
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> train took siding for almost every freight train, and in N. Ontario almost
> all sidings had jointed track.)

Perhaps not on Via Wolf but I'm not sure about commuter trains.  Besides,
like the vast majority of North Americans, I don't travel by train.  The
last time I was on a train in North America was probably around 1975 and
that was, IIRC, on the Turbo from Toronto to Dorval.  :-)

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Bernhard Agthe - 01 Sep 2009 15:40 GMT
Hi,

> (screw coupler)

It should be mentioned, that a screw coupler *has* to have buffers - in
Europe they are roughly above the rails with the coupler in between.
Without buffer, the screw coupler won't work... But this is just for
completeness ;-)

> (eliminate slack)
>  Unlike a North American passenger train, a UK passenger
> train has no slack, zero.  It's one complete unit from nose to tail.

Now, this is the idea, though it's far from usual practice.

First of all, when traveling on passenger trains labeled as "local"
(still going 120 km/h, sometimes more) I do notice slack now and then.
This may be due to personnel shortage (meaning less time to do more
work), but none the less happens.

Second of all, the buffers are sprung (no matter whether by real springs
or whatever). So, while the coupler being tightened means some
compression, it is always possible to compress them further and thus
relieve the coupler tension. Actually when the train goes around the
bend, the inner coupler is compressed more, while the outer coupler
releases some (but the compression is kept up).

So I guess the compression by the screw coupler is mostly to prevent the
coupler from un-coupling at rough spots in the track and has less or
nothing to do with yard operation ;-)

But anyway, a screw-coupled train is less of a complete unit than a
train with center-couplers - because with center couplers there is a
firm connection between two couplers. That does not mean that current
center couplers are ideal - the Scharfenberg coupler is too complicated
(expensive), the American couplers have too many extensions (shelves) by
now to be considered "simple" and the Russian type probably has other
deficiencies... There have been attempts at an "European center coupler"
but they never went past some prototypes...

>> Britain and (I think) the rest of Europe had what they called "hump"
>> marshalling yards which sound a bit like the sloped section you talk
>> about .......
>
> Almost all countries that had railways/railroads probably had hump yards.
> The still do in North America though they've all closed in the UK.

That is probably the important point - the type of coupler has some
influence on the procedures in the arrival tracks and in the sorting
tracks, but otherwise all yard operations are similar between Europe and
North America.

Arrival track:
- in America someone has to walk the train to close the brake valves at
the wagons' ends and uncouple the brake lines.
- in Europe someone has to walk the train, close the brake valves and
uncouple the brake lines as well as uncouple the screw couplers.

Hump:
- in America someone has to stand next to the track at the hump to open
the couplers between cuts. This can probably be done while the train is
driving slowly.
- in Europe the cars are already uncoupled, so they'll roll by themselves.

Sorting track / departure track:
- in America someone has to walk the train and couple the brake lines as
well as check the couplers
- in Europe again someone has to walk the train and couple brake lines
as well as screw shut all the couplers

So I guess, the center couplers do have some advantage - coupling and
uncoupling is faster, but as long as the brake lines have to be coupled
by hand, the only difference in procedure is the time taken to actually
work the couplers...

...
> caboose or these days the EOT is attached, the cars connected to yard air to
> charge the brake system and at some time before departure, the power is
> attached to the head end.

The "yard air" probably is a very good idea ;-)

> I think the original question asked if cars in North America were pushed and
> let to roll freely onto the rear of trains but were pushed onto trains in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> need to define "train" as a "train", contrary to what the media and the
> unwashed masses think, isn't a freight car.

As far as I recall - and you mention it above - there are hump yards in
North America. That would mean, that cars are left to free-wheel onto
the end of a "train" - which would not have an engine connected to it.
But this is exclusively done with freight trains and even then there are
cars that need to be shunted by a loco because they may contain fragile
goods.

Anyway, modeling a hump yard is possible (there is an operational one at
the DB-Museum in Nuremborough (Germany)). Still it is quite a major
undertaking ;-) It might be much simpler to model a locomotive-shunted
"flat" yard... But as far as procedural differenced between the
continents are concerned I'd guess they are more of an administrative
nature than of a technical one...

Ciao..
Roger T. - 01 Sep 2009 17:32 GMT
"Bernhard Agthe">> The answer is "No", cars were never let to roll freely
onto trains in North
>> America.  When attaching a block of cars to a train, they are always
>> pushed by a locomotive and never let to free wheel onto the end of a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> this is exclusively done with freight trains and even then there are cars
> that need to be shunted by a loco because they may contain fragile goods.

That is not a "train".  Rules are _very_ specific about what a train is.

And usually, in North America at least, trains (As defined in the rules) do
not depart from the bowl tracks in the hump yard.  After the cars are
humped, and sorted out on the bowl or yard tracks, these blocks of cars are
then transferred to an arrival/departure track where the consist of the
train is made up.  Before departure, the caboose (when they were used) is
attached, the power added and in the days of cabooses the marker lights are
add or these days the EOT is attached.  Now you have a train but not until
the marker lights or the EOT is added.

It is the presence of the marker lights and or the EOT that makes it a
train.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

David Nebenzahl - 29 Aug 2009 18:13 GMT
On 8/29/2009 6:42 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:

> Britain and (I think) the rest of Europe had what they called "hump"
> marshalling yards which sound a bit like the sloped section you talk
> about - the wagons were pushed over a small hill and then freewheeled
> through a fan of turnouts onto the right track. There were retarders
> to slow the wagons down to the right speed.The only real difference
> was that coupling up was done manually.

I thought that coupling had/has to be done "manually" in any case: how
else are the air hoses going to get connected? The couplers (at least in
the US) will automatically couple when, say, a car is rolled down a
"hump" (same here as in Yurp, apparently), but a trainman still has to
come along and connect the trainline, right?

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Roger T. - 29 Aug 2009 19:07 GMT
> I thought that coupling had/has to be done "manually" in any case: how
> else are the air hoses going to get connected? The couplers (at least in
> the US) will automatically couple when, say, a car is rolled down a "hump"
> (same here as in Yurp, apparently), but a trainman still has to come along
> and connect the trainline, right?

Yes.

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/
Christopher A. Lee - 29 Aug 2009 19:39 GMT
>On 8/29/2009 6:42 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>"hump" (same here as in Yurp, apparently), but a trainman still has to
>come along and connect the trainline, right?

What air hoses?

Most British steam era freight only had hand brakes on the wagons. The
only brake force on a moving train was from the engine and tender, and
the guard's hand brake at the back of the train.
Roger T. - 29 Aug 2009 20:58 GMT
"Christopher A. Lee"

> What air hoses?
>
> Most British steam era freight only had hand brakes on the wagons. The
> only brake force on a moving train was from the engine and tender, and
> the guard's hand brake at the back of the train.

Not 100% true.  It is true that a lot of UK freight, especially mineral
traffic, moved in unfitted train but there were also freight trains the were
fully fitted or partially fitted that ran with a fitted head and they used
vacuum brakes and not air brakes.  The vacuum brake hoses had to both manual
connected and disconnected, unlike air brake hose which can pull apart
without damage.

These days, since the early 1980s(?), all UK trains are air braked, except a
few carriages that remain vacuum braked for use behind steam excursions.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Christopher A. Lee - 29 Aug 2009 23:02 GMT
>"Christopher A. Lee"
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>connected and disconnected, unlike air brake hose which can pull apart
>without damage.

"Most"

I'm trying to give a simple explantion to a question whose phrasing
suggested English might not be the poster's original language.

>These days, since the early 1980s(?), all UK trains are air braked, except a
>few carriages that remain vacuum braked for use behind steam excursions.

And they're fixed formation units, Or several fixed formation units
joined together. Operation is completely different.
Roger T. - 30 Aug 2009 00:59 GMT
>> The vacuum brake hoses had to both manual
>>connected and disconnected, unlike air brake hose which can pull apart
>>without damage.
>
> "Most"

Goes without saying.  They use the same metal coupling or "gladhand" on the
end of the airhose as we use in North America.  It's a pretty universal
fitting for not only for brake hoses but for all kinds of pneumatic hoses.
Even the constructon crews with jack hammers use the same fitting.

>>These days, since the early 1980s(?), all UK trains are air braked, except
>>a
>>few carriages that remain vacuum braked for use behind steam excursions.
>
> And they're fixed formation units, Or several fixed formation units
> joined together. Operation is completely different.

You're talking passenger, I was discussing freight.  And the UK is like much
of the rest of the "modern" world when it comes to fixed formation trains
aka "multiple unit" trains.  They also use automatic air connections that
are all part of the coupler.  Not universally, unfortunately, which can
create major problems when an m.u. (Fixed consist) train fails on the
mainline and the following train has a completely incompatible coupler
system so it cannot come up behind and push the failed train forward.

That's why they have or had "Thunderbird" diesels. Why "Thunderbird"?
Google the TV show "Thunderbirds" and the answer becomes obvious.  :-)

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Christopher A. Lee - 30 Aug 2009 01:02 GMT
>>> The vacuum brake hoses had to both manual
>>>connected and disconnected, unlike air brake hose which can pull apart
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>mainline and the following train has a completely incompatible coupler
>system so it cannot come up behind and push the failed train forward.

No. I'm talking modern freight.

>That's why they have or had "Thunderbird" diesels. Why "Thunderbird"?
>Google the TV show "Thunderbirds" and the answer becomes obvious.  :-)
Roger T. - 30 Aug 2009 01:39 GMT
>>> And they're fixed formation units, Or several fixed formation units
>>> joined together. Operation is completely different.

> No. I'm talking modern freight.

I have video, supplied by a friend,  of a long 30+ car or more  intermodale
train roaring through Winchester and that's not a fixed rake.  :-)

I didn't know that modern UK freight ran in fixed rakes.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Christopher A. Lee - 30 Aug 2009 01:56 GMT
>>>> And they're fixed formation units, Or several fixed formation units
>>>> joined together. Operation is completely different.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I didn't know that modern UK freight ran in fixed rakes.

I'll try and find some photos. But I've seen rakes of wagons with
standard couplings on the outside and semi-permanent drawbar
connection inside. Could have been wagons for ISO containers. It's
been a while since I went back to the UK.
Roger T. - 30 Aug 2009 02:21 GMT
"Christopher A. Lee

>>I have video, supplied by a friend,  of a long 30+ car or more
>>intermodale
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> connection inside. Could have been wagons for ISO containers. It's
> been a while since I went back to the UK.

These are articulated freight cars and we have them in North America.  It's
not the "train" running in fixed rakes but articulated freight cars within
the train.  Like these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_car  .   Not quite
the same thing as an "fixed rake" freight train.  Trains that run in
(generally) fixed rakes are known as "unit trains" in North America or in
the UK, "merry-go-round" or "mgr" trains and these will be made up of
similar but individual cars that remain coupled together and run from
source, usually a coal mine, to a customer, say a generating plant or
perhaps a lake head or sea port.  Try Google for "unit train",
"merry-go-round train" or "mgr" train for a fuller explanation.

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Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Christopher A. Lee - 30 Aug 2009 02:29 GMT
>"Christopher A. Lee
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>perhaps a lake head or sea port.  Try Google for "unit train",
>"merry-go-round train" or "mgr" train for a fuller explanation.

No. They're not articulated - each has two bogie trucks. It's a rake
of several wagons with a standard coupling on the outside to couple
with an engine of a similar rake. Between the bagons is a different
kind of simpler coupling more like a drawbar that is not designed to
be separated in service.
I've never heard them called articulated before, they're separate
wagons with standard couplers on the outside of the rakes,
Roger T. - 30 Aug 2009 03:32 GMT
> No. They're not articulated - each has two bogie trucks. It's a rake
> of several wagons with a standard coupling on the outside to couple
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I've never heard them called articulated before, they're separate
> wagons with standard couplers on the outside of the rakes,

Now I understand.  I think they made some hoppers like that in North America
and perhaps some intermodal cars.  Two cars, with drawbar and carrying one
number.

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Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Wolf K - 30 Aug 2009 17:31 GMT
[...]  Try Google for "unit train",
>> "merry-go-round train" or "mgr" train for a fuller explanation.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I've never heard them called articulated before, they're separate
> wagons with standard couplers on the outside of the rakes,

This was done with some ore trains in the USA, too.

wolf k.
Roger T. - 30 Aug 2009 18:46 GMT
>> No. They're not articulated - each has two bogie trucks. It's a rake
>> of several wagons with a standard coupling on the outside to couple
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> This was done with some ore trains in the USA, too.

Were there not "Four Packs", four of the "shorty" ore hoppers with fixed
drawbars?

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Alan Larsson - 30 Aug 2009 18:52 GMT
>>> No. They're not articulated - each has two bogie trucks. It's a rake
>>> of several wagons with a standard coupling on the outside to couple
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Were there not "Four Packs", four of the "shorty" ore hoppers with fixed
> drawbars?

I think they also did it with shorty tank cars.

This included connecting the tanks so they could act as one large tank for
filling or draining.
Wolf K - 30 Aug 2009 19:24 GMT
>>> No. They're not articulated - each has two bogie trucks. It's a rake
>>> of several wagons with a standard coupling on the outside to couple
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Were there not "Four Packs", four of the "shorty" ore hoppers with fixed
> drawbars?

GN or DMIR, IIRC.

wolf k.
Wolf K - 30 Aug 2009 17:30 GMT
> "Christopher A. Lee
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> perhaps a lake head or sea port.  Try Google for "unit train",
> "merry-go-round train" or "mgr" train for a fuller explanation.

And many unit coal trains have cars fitted with special couplers (so
they can be rotated) or bottom hatches (so that they don't need manual
opening) in order to unload them without uncoupling, or without
stopping.... Now that's an operation I'd like to see done in HO. ;-)

wolf k.
Alan Larsson - 30 Aug 2009 18:29 GMT
> And many unit coal trains have cars fitted with special couplers (so they
> can be rotated) or bottom hatches (so that they don't need manual opening)
> in order to unload them without uncoupling, or without stopping.... Now
> that's an operation I'd like to see done in HO. ;-)

Local HO club has it.

Starts with a working coal loding facility all the way around the layout to
a working rotary dump facility.

Cars have custom modified rotary couplers on them.
Steve Caple - 30 Aug 2009 18:46 GMT
> Local HO club has it.
>
> Starts with a working coal loding facility all the way around the layout to
> a working rotary dump facility.
>
> Cars have custom modified rotary couplers on them.

Neat  -  any web cites?

Signature

Steve

Alan Larsson - 30 Aug 2009 18:51 GMT
>> Local HO club has it.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Neat  -  any web cites?

Just looked and have not found one yet.  I will keep looking
Wolf K - 30 Aug 2009 19:23 GMT
>> And many unit coal trains have cars fitted with special couplers (so they
>> can be rotated) or bottom hatches (so that they don't need manual opening)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Cars have custom modified rotary couplers on them.

Lovely. Any pics or videos posted somewhere?

wolf k.
David Nebenzahl - 29 Aug 2009 23:23 GMT
On 8/29/2009 11:39 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:

>> On 8/29/2009 6:42 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> only brake force on a moving train was from the engine and tender, and
> the guard's hand brake at the back of the train.  

I find this hard to believe. After all, in the US, airbrakes were
standard well before the end of the steam era, and I think that the rest
of the world wasn't that far off in adopting them either. (Not sure of
exact dates, and sure that others will give the correct info here.)

Not that there aren't those who model pre-airbrake eras; more power to
'em. But I think it's safe to say that *most* of us model times when
trains had airbrakes (and trainlines) as standard equipment.

By the way, I think you're making waaaay too much of the OP's perceived
difficulties with English. His writing seems perfectly clear to me.

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Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Christopher A. Lee - 30 Aug 2009 00:59 GMT
>On 8/29/2009 11:39 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>of the world wasn't that far off in adopting them either. (Not sure of
>exact dates, and sure that others will give the correct info here.)

It's fact though.

Most steam era goods wagons were un-braked apart from a handbrake
lever. The trains trundled along pretty slowly. When they had to go up
or down a hill, the brakes were pinned down to prevent running away,
and thengine dragged the wagons against the friction of the brakes.
Rather like driving a car with the handbrake on. The wheels would
still go round but it took a lot of power.

There were vacuum braked freights which were faster but there were
less of these. Typically for perishable goods.

Coal was probably the highest volume freight traffic. Prior to WW2 the
railway companies could provide wagons at a daily rate, but because
these would spend so much time at the colliery or the coal merchant,
it was cheaper to own or lease your own.

The average coal merchant wanted a load that would fit in a short
wheelbase 4-wheeled wagon. The GWR and other lines tried to streamline
things with larger wagons but these were too big for the customers, as
well costing more to hire per day.

The 4-wheel wagons were built as cheaply as possible, and were little
more than mobile coal bins. The customers disn't want anything more
than that

As previously pointed out, the only brake force for these trains came
from the engine and tender, with a screw-down hand brake on the
guard's van at the rear.

During WW2 all these were commandeered for the war effort.
Nationalisation came after WW2 and while there were modernisation
plans, things carried on pretty much as before.

If you don't believe me, try to find brake hoses on this wagon built
in 1948.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/LNER_20ton_loco_coal_wagon_E300831_as_buil
t_at_Shildon_in_May_1948.JPG


This was larger than most because it was internal use, for locomotive
coal. The average coal merchant still only wanted half that load.

>Not that there aren't those who model pre-airbrake eras; more power to
>'em. But I think it's safe to say that *most* of us model times when
>trains had airbrakes (and trainlines) as standard equipment.

Air brakes came into general use in the UK after the end of steam.

Passenger trains and fast freight used vacuum brakes. In the early
1980s a train I rode from Manchester to London was very late because
the dual fitted (vacuum and air) failed, and the first replacement
they sent only had air. This was the Manchester Pullman whose stock
had been built in the 1960s

During this era newer passenger stock was air braked and older vacuum,
with some of the older having both. Many nut all locomotives were dual
braked. Incidentally the train I mentioned was the Manchester Pullman
and the carrengines but not all dual braked, a

But coal, mineral and other unfitted freight ran until well after the
end of steam.

Here's a diesel brake tender to brovide extra braking force for a
diesel engine pulling an unfitted train of 10-ton mineral wagons..
Roger T. - 30 Aug 2009 01:07 GMT
>> Most British steam era freight only had hand brakes on the wagons. The
>> only brake force on a moving train was from the engine and tender, and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> world wasn't that far off in adopting them either. (Not sure of exact
> dates, and sure that others will give the correct info here.)

Nope.  He's absolutely correct.  The majority of British freight trains ran
with only the locos brakes, the hand brake on the tender and the guard's
hand brake in the brake van at the rear of the train.  That's why most UK
trains ran at less then 40 mph, because all the braking was in the loco and
the weighted brake van at the rear.

> By the way, I think you're making waaaay too much of the OP's perceived
> difficulties with English. His writing seems perfectly clear to me.

I agree with this.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

David Nebenzahl - 30 Aug 2009 01:48 GMT
On 8/29/2009 5:07 PM Roger T. spake thus:

>>> Most British steam era freight only had hand brakes on the wagons. The
>>> only brake force on a moving train was from the engine and tender, and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> trains ran at less then 40 mph, because all the braking was in the loco and
> the weighted brake van at the rear.

Wow. How quintessentially ... British, which is to say insular. Little
cars trundling around a little island ...

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Christopher A. Lee - 30 Aug 2009 02:30 GMT
>On 8/29/2009 5:07 PM Roger T. spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Wow. How quintessentially ... British, which is to say insular. Little
>cars trundling around a little island ...

Not really. It is what the customers wanted.
Brian Bailey - 31 Aug 2009 16:04 GMT
> On 8/29/2009 5:07 PM Roger T. spake thus:

> >>> Most British steam era freight only had hand brakes on the wagons.
> >>> The only brake force on a moving train was from the engine and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >  That's why most UK trains ran at less then 40 mph, because all the
> > braking was in the loco and the weighted brake van at the rear.

> Wow. How quintessentially ... British, which is to say insular. Little
> cars trundling around a little island ...

Umm, not really! Many freight trains, but more especially coal, were often
built up through accessing many short branch lines, collecting from, and
delivering to, other short branch lines, throughout industrial districts
or coal mining districts, with difficult access. They were often very
short runs.

The merry-go-round coal trains for power stations came very much later
with longer runs, collecting from fewer and much larger coal pits. (I
worked on some of the coal handling plants which received these trains)
The system was and is very efficient.

If I may take the opportunity and go slightly OT, I have never been able
to understand US practice with coal drags, where as many as 100 wagons (?)
were coupled (10,000 tons ?) being typical but frequently ran at well
below locomotive economic running speed, walking speed no less, and, I
understand, often stalled. How come? This has puzzled me for a long time.

I have several CD's of C&O showing Allegheny H8's just crawling with mile
long coal drags!

Any explanations, please.

I mean, one could equally ask, why choose the Mallet system as opposed to
the Beyer Garratt?
Wolf K - 31 Aug 2009 16:53 GMT
[...]
> If I may take the opportunity and go slightly OT, I have never been able
> to understand US practice with coal drags, where as many as 100 wagons (?)
> were coupled (10,000 tons ?) being typical but frequently ran at well
> below locomotive economic running speed, walking speed no less, and, I
> understand, often stalled. How come? This has puzzled me for a long time.

Ore trains in the Missabe Range were in that range, too. That's the
reason for the Yellowstone, a 2-8-8-4 that had greater weight on drivers
and greater tractive effort than the Bog Boy (which was heavier overall.)

> I have several CD's of C&O showing Allegheny H8's just crawling with mile
> long coal drags!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I mean, one could equally ask, why choose the Mallet system as opposed to
> the Beyer Garratt?

Here are some of the things I've figured out from my reading, and from
recall of the thermodynamics course I took many years ago. I don't claim
it's a complete explanation, but it's certainly part of it.

Those locos were designed as "drag" locos, for low speed and heavy
trains. The economics of steam locomotive speeds are complicated. The
drag locos were designed to be most economical at low speeds, in the
15-20mph range. Articulation was used because you essentially get two
engines for the price of 1-1/2, with a single crew. And as with all
engines, bigger means more efficient.

Mallet vs Beyer-Garratt is a "cultural" difference, heavily influenced
by NIH syndrome. Also, IIRC, Beyer-Garratt was patented, while the
Mallet was just a compound articulated loco, anybody could build one
without paying royalties. A lot of so-called Mallets were simple
engines, though.

There are other aspects  to the economics of trains. The sheer amount of
coal to be hauled is one. The logistics of managing many short, lighter,
faster trains are complex compared to fewer, longer, heavier, slower
ones, and it's worse when they run on the same tracks. Railroads hate
mixing freight and passenger trains for this reason. It requires extra
tracks and passing sidings, more complex signalling, and so on.

By the time all these and other factors are balanced against each other,
running a heavy trains at less than the engine's most economical speed
was a minor cost compared to others.

I'm sure there are many things I've overlooked.

HTH
wolf k.
Brian Bailey - 31 Aug 2009 21:35 GMT
> Brian Bailey wrote: [...]
> > If I may take the opportunity and go slightly OT, I have never been
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > less, and, I understand, often stalled. How come? This has puzzled me
> > for a long time.

> Ore trains in the Missabe Range were in that range, too. That's the
> reason for the Yellowstone, a 2-8-8-4 that had greater weight on drivers
> and greater tractive effort than the Bog Boy (which was heavier overall.)

Yes, they were big weren't they. As I understand it the Big Boy wasn't
especially efficient, or wasn't run efficiently, and threw a lot of coal,
unburnt, up the stack. The fuel was just so cheap that it didn't matter.

> > I have several CD's of C&O showing Allegheny H8's just crawling with
> > mile long coal drags!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > I mean, one could equally ask, why choose the Mallet system as opposed
> > to the Beyer Garratt?

> Here are some of the things I've figured out from my reading, and from
> recall of the thermodynamics course I took many years ago. I don't claim
> it's a complete explanation, but it's certainly part of it.

> Those locos were designed as "drag" locos, for low speed and heavy
> trains. The economics of steam locomotive speeds are complicated. The
> drag locos were designed to be most economical at low speeds, in the
> 15-20mph range. Articulation was used because you essentially get two
> engines for the price of 1-1/2, with a single crew. And as with all
> engines, bigger means more efficient.

Sometimes, it depends how you run them.

> Mallet vs Beyer-Garratt is a "cultural" difference, heavily influenced
> by NIH syndrome.

I'm sure your right!

> Also, IIRC, Beyer-Garratt was patented,

True! That must have influenced decision making.

> while the Mallet was just a compound articulated loco,

The early one's, yes.

> anybody could build one without paying royalties. A lot of so-called
> Mallets were simple engines, though.

I think that 'all' the later ones were, weren't they?

> There are other aspects  to the economics of trains. The sheer amount of
> coal to be hauled is one. The logistics of managing many short, lighter,
> faster trains are complex compared to fewer, longer, heavier, slower
> ones, and it's worse when they run on the same tracks. Railroads hate
> mixing freight and passenger trains for this reason. It requires extra
> tracks and passing sidings, more complex signalling, and so on.

That's certainly true in the UK.

But, weren't many US long haul tracks virtually dedicated solely to coal
and/or ore, though?

> By the time all these and other factors are balanced against each other,
> running a heavy trains at less than the engine's most economical speed
> was a minor cost compared to others.

ie. fuel was cheap at the time. But, as an admirer of the engineering of
both the Yellowstones and the Lima H8's, I am aware that the economical
running speed of both was far higher than what was current running
practice. I mean, CD's showing Yellowstones on the Doluth Missabe and Iron
Range show them to be really shifting, whereas the H8's were capable of
far higher speeds than was normal practice which appeared to be slow coal
drags. I think that I am correct in thinking that C&O didn't really know
the H8's full capabilities until it was far too late to utilise it.

> I'm sure there are many things I've overlooked.

No worries, me too.

Brian
Tim Illingworth - 31 Aug 2009 23:18 GMT
[big snip]

>> while the Mallet was just a compound articulated loco,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>I think that 'all' the later ones were, weren't they?

Not all - the last of Norfolk & Western's Y6bs was built in 1952, and
they were compound to the end. It is said that the next N&W drag loco
(the Y7) would have been a simple, however.

Tim
Twibil - 01 Sep 2009 01:39 GMT
> >I think that 'all' the later ones were, weren't they?
>
> Not all - the last of Norfolk & Western's Y6bs was built in 1952, and
> they were compound to the end.

As were the USRA 2-6-6-2s: one of my favorite locomotives.

"During the tenure of the USRA, 30 of these articulated steam
locomotives were built. The Chesapeake and Ohio Railway (C&O) and
Wheeling and Lake Erie Railway (W&LE) ordered the USRA 2-6-6-2 Mallet.
The first Mallet was delivered to the W&LE in 1919 for $71,966.94.
Later, the Nickel Plate Road (NKP) leased them from the W&LE,
renumbering them for use on its rails. With two independently
swiveling driver and truck mechanisms (which is also used on modern
diesel locomotives), this limber giant’s unique design allowed it to
negotiate branch lines and tight curves while hauling larger consists
than its smaller cousins in the USRA series.

The Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad ordered the first of these compact USRA
2-6-6-2 steam locomotives from Alco in 1911. It was a massive
locomotive for the time, and it performed well enough for the C&O to
order additional, but slightly modified, versions right through 1923.
These locomotives were designed to replace the 2-8-0 Consolidations
for the coal drags on the C&O’s Hinton Division. The 2-6-6-2s could
handle more tonnage than the double-headed pair of 2-8-0s they
replaced, and they burned less coal in the process. The 2-6-6-2s
proved to be ideal mine run engines as their power and flexibility
plus low weight on drivers made them ideal for the curving and heavily
graded branches in the mountains of Virginia and West Virginia.

An additional ten (10) locomotives were built in 1949. These C&O Class
H6 2-6-6-2s, numbered 1300 to 1309, were the last steam locomotives
produced by Baldwin for use in the United States. The last of these
were retired in 1957. Most of the locomotives were scrapped, but, the
last two produced were retained by C&O as examples of their steam
heritage. The 1308 is in the care of the Collis P. Huntingdon Chapter
of the National Railway Historical Society [1] at Huntington, West
Virginia, while the 1309 is in the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum,
at Baltimore, Maryland."

~Pete
Brian Bailey - 01 Sep 2009 07:10 GMT
In article
<16771f93-20d1-4d90-a996-98f84c8ead12@y10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > >I think that 'all' the later ones were, weren't they?
> >
> > Not all - the last of Norfolk & Western's Y6bs was built in 1952, and
> > they were compound to the end.

> As were the USRA 2-6-6-2s: one of my favorite locomotives.

> "During the tenure of the USRA, 30 of these articulated steam
> locomotives were built. The Chesapeake and Ohio Railway (C&O) and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> negotiate branch lines and tight curves while hauling larger consists
> than its smaller cousins in the USRA series.

> The Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad ordered the first of these compact USRA
> 2-6-6-2 steam locomotives from Alco in 1911. It was a massive
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> plus low weight on drivers made them ideal for the curving and heavily
> graded branches in the mountains of Virginia and West Virginia.

> An additional ten (10) locomotives were built in 1949. These C&O Class
> H6 2-6-6-2s, numbered 1300 to 1309, were the last steam locomotives
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Virginia, while the 1309 is in the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum,
> at Baltimore, Maryland."

Thanks for that, Tim. I had forgotten about the Y6bs - but, without making
excuses, N&W were a bit different weren't they. And thanks for the
additional information Pete. The USRA designs and their derivatives
carried on well into the last days of steam didn't they.

I shall have to re-read a number of volumes! 8-)
Steve Caple - 01 Sep 2009 07:43 GMT
> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms

Really?  The high pressure engine was somehow pivoted separately from the
frame?  Model mfgrs do this all the time to enable reduced radii, but a
prototype?  How'd they manage it?  Drawings, please.

Signature

Steve

Roger T. - 01 Sep 2009 12:42 GMT
>> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms

Not true!

> Really?  The high pressure engine was somehow pivoted separately from the
> frame?  Model mfgrs do this all the time to enable reduced radii, but a
> prototype?  How'd they manage it?  Drawings, please.

They didn't.  The boiler was attached to the rear engine and only the front
engine was free to pivot.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Steve Caple - 01 Sep 2009 14:53 GMT
>>> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> They didn't.  The boiler was attached to the rear engine and only the front
> engine was free to pivot.

Thought so  - thanks for the confirmation.

Signature

Steve

Wolf K - 01 Sep 2009 14:43 GMT
>> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms
>
> Really?  The high pressure engine was somehow pivoted separately from the
> frame?  Model mfgrs do this all the time to enable reduced radii, but a
> prototype?  How'd they manage it?  Drawings, please.

See MRR's Loco 1: steam locomotives, p. 235ff. Ther are also lots of
photos showing how the front engine swung away from the main engine on
curves.

Tha back end of the engine frams was pivoted to the main frame, the
front end had a centering arrangement, and the steam lines had
rotoationg glands and sliding joints.

FWIW, in the 70s IIRC, MRR ran a series of articles on upgrading an HO
Big Boy, which included duplicating the front end centering system: two
facing shallow vees with a roller between. the weight of the loco tended
to keep that roller centered.

HTH

wolf k.
Steve Caple - 01 Sep 2009 15:04 GMT
>>> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> front end had a centering arrangement, and the steam lines had
> rotoationg glands and sliding joints.

I know that the front engine (low pressure engine on a Mallet) pivots  -  I
work regularly as a docent describing SP's AC-14 #4294, the only surviving
cab forward.  In fact, we have a clamp lamp attached under the frame
shining on the pivot point  -  although most visitors don't notice unless
it's pointed out.  But the rear (or in the case of a cab forward, the
front) engine, to my knowledge, was always part of the rigid main frame in
North American articulateds, compound or otherwise, with that engine, the
cab and firebox and boiler always maintaining the same alignment while the
engine under the smokebox end of the locomotive swiveling to either side
while supporting the boiler on a sliding bearing.  Do you mean otherwise?

Signature

Steve

Twibil - 01 Sep 2009 19:32 GMT
> I know that the front engine (low pressure engine on a Mallet) pivots  -  I
> work regularly as a docent describing SP's AC-14 #4294, the only surviving
> cab forward.

An AC-14?   Cool!

I always thought they stopped at AC-12!   };-P

~Pete
Steve Caple - 02 Sep 2009 00:20 GMT
> An AC-14?   Cool!
>
> I always thought they stopped at AC-12!

Yeah, steam lives!  (the docent's parking lot shows a lot of stickers with
a feather that say "WP Lives")  Anyway, dyslexic fingers strike again.  

And now you can get a 1:20.3 scale model for only a 50th of the original
AC-12 cost.

Signature

Steve

Wolf K - 01 Sep 2009 21:35 GMT
[...] But the rear (or in the case of a cab forward, the
> front) engine, to my knowledge, was always part of the rigid main frame in
> North American articulateds, compound or otherwise, with that engine, the
> cab and firebox and boiler always maintaining the same alignment while the
> engine under the smokebox end of the locomotive swiveling to either side
> while supporting the boiler on a sliding bearing.  Do you mean otherwise?

No, I understand it just the way you describe it.

Cheers,
wolf k.
Christopher A. Lee - 01 Sep 2009 18:00 GMT
>> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms
>
>Really?  The high pressure engine was somehow pivoted separately from the
>frame?  Model mfgrs do this all the time to enable reduced radii, but a
>prototype?  How'd they manage it?  Drawings, please.

The Meyer and Kitson Meyer engines did this. As did the Beyer Garrats,
Fairlies and Masons (Mason's first articulated engine was laid out
like a double Fairlie: two boilers with the cab in the middle and two
power trucks.

But if a Mallet did this it wouldn't be a Mallet in thr first place.

The first Garratt, which was a compound:

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/2004/ar-k1-120904-2.jpg

Note that later Garratts had the cylinders at the outer ends of the
power trucks.
Brian Bailey - 01 Sep 2009 19:16 GMT
> >> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms
> >
> >Really?  The high pressure engine was somehow pivoted separately from the
> >frame?  Model mfgrs do this all the time to enable reduced radii, but a
> >prototype?  How'd they manage it?  Drawings, please.

> The Meyer and Kitson Meyer engines did this. As did the Beyer Garrats,
> Fairlies and Masons (Mason's first articulated engine was laid out
> like a double Fairlie: two boilers with the cab in the middle and two
> power trucks.

> But if a Mallet did this it wouldn't be a Mallet in thr first place.

> The first Garratt, which was a compound:

> http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/2004/ar-k1-120904-2.jpg

> Note that later Garratts had the cylinders at the outer ends of the
> power trucks.

Yes, I remember seeing UK LMS Garratts as a kid, on the Birmingham - Derby
line. Always scruffy and very dirty. They were not very successful, I
understand that the wheel bearings were under sized, against Beyer
Peacocks advice. I think I've got that right. They had a peculiar 'cement
mixer' rotary coal bunker.
Christopher A. Lee - 01 Sep 2009 23:57 GMT
>> >> two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Peacocks advice. I think I've got that right. They had a peculiar 'cement
>mixer' rotary coal bunker.

Yes to both.

They were too big for the lines they ran on. They could pull trains
too long for the yards, and sometimes the weight of the train broke
the couplings.

It had been the Midland Railway's practice to use double headed
0-6-0s, typically 4Fs on the coal trains to London.

They wanted to replace these with a bigger engine. A Garrett is ideal
for this sort of thing, but as you say, they retained too many
standard Midland features that didn't get thrown out until Stanier
took over, one of which were the poor axle bearings.

A less known problem is that the water columns were placed for double
headed 0-6-0s. And the Garratts had different spacing for the tank
fillers. So they would  have to stop, fill the front tank and then
draw forward, doubling the waiting time.
Twibil - 01 Sep 2009 19:21 GMT
> > two independently swiveling driver and truck mechanisms
>
> Really?  The high pressure engine was somehow pivoted separately from the
> frame?  Model mfgrs do this all the time to enable reduced radii, but a
> prototype?  How'd they manage it?  Drawings, please.

You got your attributions wrong. That was a quote. (That's what the
little " marks mean.)

But not impossible anyway as the Beyer-Garretts did exactly that: both
engine units swiveled with the boiler suspended between and above
them.

~Pete
Steve Caple - 02 Sep 2009 00:15 GMT
> That was a quote.

But where from?  Wikipedia?

Signature

Steve

Steve Caple - 02 Sep 2009 00:40 GMT
>> That was a quote.
>
> But where from?  Wikipedia?

Yep, Wiki.  Edited to remove "two swiveling" and also "USRA" in reference
to first C&O 2-6-6-2 order in 1911, before USRA existed.

Signature

Steve

Twibil - 02 Sep 2009 00:57 GMT
> >> That was a quote.
>
> > But where from?  Wikipedia?
>
> Yep, Wiki.  Edited to remove "two swiveling" and also "USRA" in reference
> to first C&O 2-6-6-2 order in 1911, before USRA existed.

Good for you.

I noticed both of those, but I don't know how to correct a Wiki
article so I left 'em be.

~Pete
David Nebenzahl - 02 Sep 2009 01:58 GMT
On 9/1/2009 4:57 PM Twibil spake thus:

>>>> That was a quote.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I noticed both of those, but I don't know how to correct a Wiki
> article so I left 'em be.

Q: How do you correct a Wikipedia article?
A: Sorry, that's impossible.

[not a riddle or a joke]

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

ten - 01 Sep 2009 12:55 GMT
> Mallet vs Beyer-Garratt is a "cultural" difference, heavily influenced
> by NIH syndrome. Also, IIRC, Beyer-Garratt was patented, while the
> Mallet was just a compound articulated loco, anybody could build one
> without paying royalties. A lot of so-called Mallets were simple
> engines, though.

The Garratt had a problem which the Mallet didn't have. As a Garratt
consumes water and coal, it's weight for traction becomes less thus TE
reduces as the train rolls along. By having a conventional tender, this
doesn't happen to the Mallet which retains all its weight for traction
although it does have to lug the tender around.

The Garratt is probably more limited in water and fuel capacity too
shown by some African Garratts having a water tank wagon connected.
Twibil - 01 Sep 2009 19:29 GMT
> The Garratt is probably more limited in water and fuel capacity too
> shown by some African Garratts having a water tank wagon connected.

Auxiliary tenders were not terribly uncommon in the dry American
southwest either, and today the Union Pacific's Challenger 4-6-6-4
runs with not only it's own tender but with two additional auxiliary
water tenders salvaged/converted from old gas-turbine tenders.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/18739532.jpg

~Pete
Greg.Procter - 02 Sep 2009 03:45 GMT
>>  Mallet vs Beyer-Garratt is a "cultural" difference, heavily influenced  
>> by NIH syndrome. Also, IIRC, Beyer-Garratt was patented, while the  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> The Garratt is probably more limited in water and fuel capacity too  
> shown by some African Garratts having a water tank wagon connected.

The Garrat is effectively a 'tank locomotive' whereas the US Mallets,
(excluding the Triplex) are 'tender locomotives'. The same problem of
reducing tractive effort occurs with almost every tank locomotive ever
in operation. Simply moving the boiler/engine unit pivots outwards and
placing the supplies in a seperate tender would solve that "problem".
The Triplex Mallet had the same problem, but in that case it really
would have been a problem as all the loss of weight was from just one
engine unit.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Twibil - 02 Sep 2009 03:55 GMT
> The Triplex Mallet had the same problem, but in that case it really
> would have been a problem as all the loss of weight was from just one
> engine unit.

Well, no, had circumstances differed, the triplex *might* have
demonstrated that problem eventually, but since the inadequate boiler
never could supply enough steam for sustained running anyway, that
difficulty rarely -if ever- arose.
Greg.Procter - 02 Sep 2009 22:55 GMT
>> The Triplex Mallet had the same problem, but in that case it really
>> would have been a problem as all the loss of weight was from just one
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> never could supply enough steam for sustained running anyway, that
> difficulty rarely -if ever- arose.

Whatever the boiler's failings, assuming it could raise enough pressure
to slip the drivers on starting, the major change in weight on the tender
driving wheels would have created  traction problems with that group.
If I remember rightly, the main frame drivers cylinders feed the two outer
pairs of cylinders in compound form. If the rear driver set lacked weight
then either those drivers would slip, causing a drop in the mid pressure
receiver, which would effectively drop steam pressure to the front engine
unit and raise pressure to the main engine unit, or the maximum throttle
and cut-off would have to be kept below the rear engine's traction limit.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Bernhard Agthe - 03 Sep 2009 09:57 GMT
Hi,

> Whatever the boiler's failings, assuming it could raise enough pressure
> to slip the drivers on starting, the major change in weight on the tender
> driving wheels would have created  traction problems with that group.

Well, but let's just assume these steam engines were used just for
helping to push trains up a ramp. There is a yard with service
facilities at the bottom of the ramp and after pushing the train up
these locos just "drift" back down or probably help a down train by
supplying additional brakes and air...

In that scenario, the boiler gets re-filled below, so the adhesion is
good while pushing up and it doesn't matter for the downhill part, anyway.

So, while it is a very limited use, such locomotives may actually work
in this scenario. AFAIK the triplex locos (2-8-8-8-2) were used by
Virginian in such a way.

Ciao...
Brian Bailey - 02 Sep 2009 06:51 GMT
> > Mallet vs Beyer-Garratt is a "cultural" difference, heavily influenced
> > by NIH syndrome. Also, IIRC, Beyer-Garratt was patented, while the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> doesn't happen to the Mallet which retains all its weight for traction
> although it does have to lug the tender around.

A good point. However, the power trains (engines) would always be more or
less well balanced, which is a great deal more than could be be said for
some Mallets which were woefully ill balanced. I think that I am correct
in saying one or two were very nearly unusable because of that and had to
be modified or abandoned. My memory is rather shaky here. Perhaps someone
else can shed further light on the aspect of well balanced Mallets, or
otherwise.

Oh! I just happened to thumb through a copy of Train Shed Encyclopedia to
check a point and, referring to an earlier comment I made, I note the
Allegheny H8's were designed for 60 mph max. and 30-35 max. continuous
power output. Why then run them for long periods, or any other locomotive,
at crawling speed - it just doesn't make sense

> The Garratt is probably more limited in water and fuel capacity too
> shown by some African Garratts having a water tank wagon connected.
Bob May - 02 Sep 2009 21:39 GMT
Back when the USRA designs were done, there wasn't much interest in really
high speed for freight trains - cars had friction bearings on the axles as
well as the locos - so the need for a good balancing of the drivers really
hadn't become critical.  It wasn't later till some of the western roads
wanted to get their trains over the track faster that the latest techniques
weree applied to dynamically balance freight haulers.

--
Bob May

rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
Brian Bailey - 03 Sep 2009 07:44 GMT
Hi Bob,

> Back when the USRA designs were done, there wasn't much interest in
> really high speed for freight trains - cars had friction bearings on the
> axles as well as the locos - so the need for a good balancing of the
> drivers really hadn't become critical.  It wasn't later till some of the
> western roads wanted to get their trains over the track faster that the
> latest techniques weree applied to dynamically balance freight haulers.

I think that we are at cross purposes, maybe?

I was talking about balanced power distribution to individual engines
related to balanced weight distribution of the boiler/main frames to
achieve equalised traction without slippage, particularly on Mallets
where, if my memory serves me correctly, some locomotives were notoriously
poor in this regard. I should have made my point clearer!

I think that you are talking about wheel balancing, yes?

Brian
Twibil - 03 Sep 2009 08:48 GMT
> I was talking about balanced power distribution to individual engines
> related to balanced weight distribution of the boiler/main frames to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I think that you are talking about wheel balancing, yes?

Looks like it.

Mallets had the problems you're speaking of not so much because of
unbalanced weight distribution, but because the low-pressure cylinders
on the front engines had to be much larger in diameter than the high-
pressure rear cylinders, and figuring out just *how* much larger in
those days was largely (pun intended) a matter of cut-and-try to see
what worked.

If you guessed wrong in the design phase, the front cylinders might
well have more (or less) thrust than you intended them to, and would
pull harder than the rear engine as a result; breaking traction every
time the front engine (A) hit slippery track (which it would hit
first, remember), (B) started up a steep grade where there was now
less weight on the front engine due to weight-transfer, or, (C) the
steam lines running from the rear cylinders to the front ones
developed leaks (and they did), in which case the front engine might
pull so poorly that the rear engine was the one that kept slipping.

As you can see, most of these problems could be (and were) solved by
using simple articulation -where all the cylinders use the same high-
pressure steam- and by increasing the sophistication of the
locomotive's articulated suspension system as well.

In an interesting and little-known sidelight; the Southern Pacific's
cab-forwards had a built-in advantage in the weight-transfer
department: where a normally oriented articulated would *lose* weight
on the pivoting driver set as the locomotive climbed a grade -possibly
causing a loss of traction- the pivoting set on cab-forwards actually
*gained* more traction on grades, which explains why these locos had
such an outstanding reputation for not slipping.

~Pete
David Nebenzahl - 03 Sep 2009 18:18 GMT
On 9/3/2009 12:48 AM Twibil spake thus:

> In an interesting and little-known sidelight; the Southern Pacific's
> cab-forwards had a built-in advantage in the weight-transfer
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> *gained* more traction on grades, which explains why these locos had
> such an outstanding reputation for not slipping.

Warning: tangent.

Speaking of cab-forwards: in retrospect, with 20-20 hindsight, that
design makes *so* much more sense than the traditional cab-behind one
(including the weight advantage you mentioned). Makes me wonder,
naively, why it wasn't adopted much earlier and universally. Why was a
clearly inferior arrangement taken as "the way it must be done"? Why
force the engine driver to control a huge locomotive with its train from
a vantage point with limited sight, as if peering through a small peephole?

(As a further tangent, it always cracks me up to think of all those
letter "F"s painted on early diesel locomotives, so the hidebound steam
engineers would know which way was supposed to point forwards. When was
this practice dropped?)

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Steve Caple - 03 Sep 2009 18:23 GMT
> Speaking of cab-forwards: in retrospect, with 20-20 hindsight, that
> design makes *so* much more sense than the traditional cab-behind one
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> force the engine driver to control a huge locomotive with its train from
> a vantage point with limited sight, as if peering through a small peephole?

The cab forwards had the best safety record of all SP steam.

Signature

Steve

Christopher A. Lee - 03 Sep 2009 18:42 GMT
>On 9/3/2009 12:48 AM Twibil spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>force the engine driver to control a huge locomotive with its train from
>a vantage point with limited sight, as if peering through a small peephole?

Not with coal firing. Many "standard" locomotives could be supplied
for oil or coal.

There were problems with this layout though - there was at least one
fatality when oil pipes under the engine leaked causing wheel slip in
a tunnel.

From Wikipedia:

 One problematic aspect of the design, however, was the routing of
 the oil lines; because the firebox was located ahead of the driving
 wheels (instead of behind them, the usual practice), oil leaks could
 cause the wheels to slip. A nuisance under most conditions, it
 resulted in at least one fatal accident. This occurred in 1941 when
 a cab-forward with leaking steam and oil lines entered the tunnel at
 Santa Susana Pass near Los Angeles. The tunnel was on a grade, and
 as the slow-moving train ascended the tunnel, oil on the rails
 caused the wheels to slip and spin. The train slipped backwards and
 a coupler knuckle broke, separating the air line, causing an
 emergency brake application and stalling the train in a tunnel that
 was rapidly filling with exhaust fumes and steam. The oil dripping
 on the rails and ties then ignited beneath the engine cab, killing
 the crew.

And I think there were crew concerns about safety in a collision. I
know there was a fatality when a cab forward hit a flat car.

Also they weren't used to a truck under the firebox that "steered" the
engine into curves instead of just carrying the weight so there were
some early problems with this.

>(As a further tangent, it always cracks me up to think of all those
>letter "F"s painted on early diesel locomotives, so the hidebound steam
>engineers would know which way was supposed to point forwards. When was
>this practice dropped?)

Heck, Union Pacific steam locomotives had "UP" painted on the back of
the tender to show which way to re-rail it.
Twibil - 03 Sep 2009 19:10 GMT
> Heck, Union Pacific steam locomotives had "UP" painted on the back of
> the tender to show which way to re-rail it.

(Note to self: remember to point this out to the die-hard U.P.
fanatics at out next club meeting...)

Thanx, Chris. That's a good one!

~Pete
Greg.Procter - 03 Sep 2009 22:15 GMT
> On 9/3/2009 12:48 AM Twibil spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> (including the weight advantage you mentioned). Makes me wonder,  
> naively, why it wasn't adopted much earlier

The Brits did it in the first decade of the 19th century :-)
It was only when Stephenson's boiler showed the (best) way that the "U"
flue boilers went out of fashion.
The Italians tried it pre-1900 with 4-6-0s (0-6-4?) and 0-10-0s (0-10-0s)
but the coal bunker beside the firebox severely limited the range.
The Germans tried blowing pulverized coal from a rear coupled tender
to the cab-forward firebox BR05 4-6-4 but the trunking tended to block up.
Cab-forwards really need to be oil fired!

> and universally. Why was a clearly inferior arrangement taken as "the  
> way it must be done"? Why force the engine driver to control a huge  
> locomotive with its train from a vantage point with limited sight, as if  
> peering through a small peephole?

Loco drivers don't really need wide vision - it only enables them to see
things like semi-trailers parked across level crossings. All they need to
see are the signals.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Steve Caple - 04 Sep 2009 02:36 GMT
> Cab-forwards really need to be oil fired!

Luckily for SP, they'd switched to ol by 1903, so when the Baldwin 2-8-8-2s
they got in 1908 resulted in near asphyxiation of the engine crews they
went looking for solutions and were able to go with a cab forward design.

Signature

Steve

Brian Bailey - 03 Sep 2009 18:57 GMT
In article
<be560864-5833-4611-a63b-c5014fcd4f7c@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,

> > I was talking about balanced power distribution to individual engines
> > related to balanced weight distribution of the boiler/main frames to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >
> > I think that you are talking about wheel balancing, yes?

> Looks like it.

> Mallets had the problems you're speaking of not so much because of
> unbalanced weight distribution, but because the low-pressure cylinders
> on the front engines had to be much larger in diameter than the high-
> pressure rear cylinders, and figuring out just *how* much larger in
> those days was largely (pun intended) a matter of cut-and-try to see
> what worked.

> If you guessed wrong in the design phase, the front cylinders might well
> have more (or less) thrust than you intended them to, and would pull
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> they did), in which case the front engine might pull so poorly that the
> rear engine was the one that kept slipping.

> As you can see, most of these problems could be (and were) solved by
> using simple articulation -where all the cylinders use the same high-
> pressure steam- and by increasing the sophistication of the locomotive's
> articulated suspension system as well.

> In an interesting and little-known sidelight; the Southern Pacific's
> cab-forwards had a built-in advantage in the weight-transfer department:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> more traction on grades, which explains why these locos had such an
> outstanding reputation for not slipping.

Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and truly
unstuck too (no pun intended)?

Personally, I've always thought that the Garratt was a fundamentally
sounder design, from several points of view, but I wouldn't argue the
case. I guess it's very much 'horses for courses' and there must have been
successes and failures in both camps.

Brian
Christopher A. Lee - 03 Sep 2009 19:56 GMT
>In article
><be560864-5833-4611-a63b-c5014fcd4f7c@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>> those days was largely (pun intended) a matter of cut-and-try to see
>> what worked.

Americans tend to use the word "articulated" where other countries use
Mallet because other kinds are uncommon there.

Mallet's original patent was for a compound, not the articulation
method he used.

Some of the last compound Mallets had low pressure cylinders to the
limit even of the large American loading gauge.

http://www.retroweb.com/trains/y6_2136_m.jpg

>> If you guessed wrong in the design phase, the front cylinders might well
>> have more (or less) thrust than you intended them to, and would pull
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> pressure steam- and by increasing the sophistication of the locomotive's
>> articulated suspension system as well.

It's not articulated, but Churchward showed that a well designed
simple engine was just as good and a lot cheaper to build - he used
two cylinders with a very long piston stroke giving the save volume as
the de Glehn compound's four.

The de Glehn was a far smoother running engine and being a balanced
design gave negligable hammer blow due the two cylinders on each side
operating at 180 degrees to each other, balancing each other out.

So Churchward came up with simple 4-cylinder engines with the same
layout.

>> In an interesting and little-known sidelight; the Southern Pacific's
>> cab-forwards had a built-in advantage in the weight-transfer department:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> more traction on grades, which explains why these locos had such an
>> outstanding reputation for not slipping.

I've heard that.

They were certainly very good engines. Californian friends my age who
saw them in operation speak very highly of them.

>Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
>Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and truly
>unstuck too (no pun intended)?

It's an inherently less stable design than the Garratt which is more
like two locomotives with a boiler slung berween them rather than a
single flexible one. Garratts, Fairlies and and Meyers run more like
bogie passenger carriages.

>Personally, I've always thought that the Garratt was a fundamentally
>sounder design, from several points of view, but I wouldn't argue the
>case. I guess it's very much 'horses for courses' and there must have been
>successes and failures in both camps.

Me too. Outside the USA it pretty well superceded the Mallet. I
suspect there might also have been patent royalties.

There were a few other kinds in the USA. The Denver and Rio Grande had
a Fairlie that was shipped out from the UK but this didn't have enough
fuel or water capacity. Mason built one double Fairlie and a lot of
single Fairlies. And don't forget the Heislers, Shays and Climaxes.

>Brian
Twibil - 03 Sep 2009 20:26 GMT
> Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
> Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and truly
> unstuck too (no pun intended)?

A "Mallet", by definition, *is* a compound Mallet, although simple
articulateds were also sometimes misnomered as Mallets by folks who
didn't really understand the difference. In their minds two or more
sets of drivers with a hinge in between equaled a "Mallet".

http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/sub/malletinfo.htm

From what I've read, some early simple articulateds were indeed prone
to slipping the front engine under some circumstances, but I never
heard of them having that problem to the same extent as did compound
mallets.

But the causes of loss of traction on the front engine are immediately
obvious if you look at the side elevation of practically any
articulated design: the rear engine supports much of the weight of the
cab, the firebox, and the largest diameter portion of the boiler,
while the front engine has only the lighter portion of the boiler and
the smokebox (which is hollow) above it to provide downforce. And in
most articulated designs at least the first set of drivers hang clear
out beyond the front of the smokebox!

I've never seen any figures on what the weight differential between
sets of drivers was on the various articulated designs, but it's a
safe bet to say that the less weight the front engine carried in
proportion to the rear engine the more prone it was to slip the
drivers.

BTW: It was easier to slip a set of steam engine drivers than most
people suppose. In the video listed below you can see an over-
enthusiastic hand on the throttle break one set (I can't tell for sure
which set) of drivers loose under a cab-forward while it's still on
the roundhouse lead track and is barely off of the turntable!  Listen
to the exhaust note suddenly speed up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ErZ5SgkVw

~Pete
Christopher A. Lee - 03 Sep 2009 21:59 GMT
>> Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
>> Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and truly
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>didn't really understand the difference. In their minds two or more
>sets of drivers with a hinge in between equaled a "Mallet".

No.

While his patent was for compounding which he didn't originate, it is
his system of articulation.

>http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/sub/malletinfo.htm
>
>From what I've read, some early simple articulateds were indeed prone

What kind of articulateds? Surely not Fairlies, Haywoods, Garratts,
Meyers etc?
Twibil - 04 Sep 2009 01:45 GMT
> >> Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
> >> Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and truly
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> No.

Yes.

From the URL listed below:  "While it is not technically correct to
call them Mallets since they are not compounds as per the Mallet
patent, simple articulateds like Weyerhaeuser #111 were identical in
design concept to a regular Mallet except for the fact that live steam
was delivered to both sets of cylinders at the same time."

What part of this did you not understand?

> What kind of articulateds? Surely not Fairlies, Haywoods, Garratts,
> Meyers etc?

You don't know what sort of locos we're talking about in this portion
of the thread even after reading the URL?

http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/sub/malletinfo.htm

If so, you need more help than I can give you.
Christopher A. Lee - 04 Sep 2009 02:27 GMT
>> >> Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
>> >> Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and truly
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>design concept to a regular Mallet except for the fact that live steam
>was delivered to both sets of cylinders at the same time."

And they got it wrong. What's your point?

>What part of this did you not understand?

I know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

Mallet's system of articulation is not the only kind.

>> What kind of articulateds? Surely not Fairlies, Haywoods, Garratts,
>> Meyers etc?

What part of that did YOU not understand?

Just because there was (mostly) just one articulation system used in
the US, doesn't mean they have exclusive use of the term to mean
Mallet's articulation system.

Tell me, what would YOU call a simple engine using Mallet's
articulation system given that "articulated" does not exclusively
describe it?

Well?

>You don't know what sort of locos we're talking about in this portion
>of the thread even after reading the URL?

Articulated on its own means generic articulated.

I'm not the one who jumped in to insist that "Mallet" really meant
compound Mallet articulated.

>http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/sub/malletinfo.htm
>
>If so, you need more help than I can give you.

Hardly.
Twibil - 04 Sep 2009 03:38 GMT
> >> >A "Mallet", by definition, *is* a compound Mallet, although simple
> >> >articulateds were also sometimes misnomered as Mallets by folks who
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> And they got it wrong. What's your point?

Christopher, meet Ray Haddad.
Christopher A. Lee - 04 Sep 2009 05:33 GMT
>> >> >A "Mallet", by definition, *is* a compound Mallet, although simple
>> >> >articulateds were also sometimes misnomered as Mallets by folks who
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Christopher, meet Ray Haddad.

So you cannot come up with a description for a simple expansion
locomotive using Mallet's articulation system because "articulated" is
too generic.

Perhaps you should not have jumped in with snide remarks about people
who actually have rather more experience of different kinds of
articulated locomotives than you do?
Twibil - 04 Sep 2009 09:48 GMT
> So you cannot come up with a description for a simple expansion
> locomotive using Mallet's articulation system because "articulated" is
> too generic.

There is no such thing as "Mallet's articulation system". Never was.

Here's the facts: Mallet did not patent an "articulation system"
because you can't patent a hinge with a set of wheels at each end.
Patents are for *new* ideas, and that one had been around ever since
somebody first hitched two horse-drawn wagons together. (And this was
pointed out earlier in this thread by someone else.)

He patented the system of re-using the steam that had powered the high-
pressure cylinders of the rear engine to power another set of low-
pressure cylinders.

Therefore when we use the word "Mallet" properly, we're speaking
exclusively of the sort of engine he patented and was named after him:
a compound Mallet. Unless, of course, you're trying to say that
because various folks use Mallet incorrectly to designate *any*
articulated locomotive we must accept their incorrect usage.

But we don't. And as people who are -in theory- interested in steam
locomotive technology, we shouldn't.

Example: one of my regular customers -now deceased- was a longtime
Southern Pacific engineer named Tom Moore who ran cab-forwards from
1941 until they were phased out in the mid '50s. I once asked him
teasingly why the S.P. engine crews always referred to the big L.A.
roundhouse as the "Mallet House", since he was always adamant about
correcting anyone who referred to a cab-forward as a "Mallet".

His answer was revealing. He said "Oh, it's okay when *we* do it! But
*we* know the difference!" What he was saying -in case it went past
you- was that words have distinct meanings, and that if we begin using
them interchangably they lose their ability to designate between the
infinite variations of real-world objects.

That's why we have seperate names for different types of articulated
locomotives: "Beyer-Garret", "Mallet", "Simple Articulated", and so
on. "Articulated" is the generic word and tells us that the loco is
hinged in some manner or other, but the individual proper names tell
us *exactly* what we're speaking of, while using "Mallet" as a generic
for any articulated loco does not.

Comprendo?
a_a_a - 04 Sep 2009 10:25 GMT
> That's why we have seperate names for different types of articulated
> locomotives: "Beyer-Garret",

GARRATT, Twibil.

Garrets are places where twibils might live.
LD - 04 Sep 2009 11:55 GMT
>> That's why we have seperate names for different types of articulated
>> locomotives: "Beyer-Garret",
>
> GARRATT, Twibil.
>
> Garrets are places where twibils might live.

and get TB in Paris
Christopher A. Lee - 04 Sep 2009 11:57 GMT
>> So you cannot come up with a description for a simple expansion
>> locomotive using Mallet's articulation system because "articulated" is
>> too generic.
>
>There is no such thing as "Mallet's articulation system". Never was.

Who else devised the system of articulation that bears his name??

>Here's the facts: Mallet did not patent an "articulation system"
>because you can't patent a hinge with a set of wheels at each end.
>Patents are for *new* ideas, and that one had been around ever since
>somebody first hitched two horse-drawn wagons together. (And this was
>pointed out earlier in this thread by someone else.)

On railways?

And how did he get away with patenting compounding then because it had
already been patented in Britain.

You can't have it both ways.

But in any case it is irrelevant that he didn't patent that system of
articulation. He was the first to use it.

>He patented the system of re-using the steam that had powered the high-
>pressure cylinders of the rear engine to power another set of low-
>pressure cylinders.

However he was not the first to patent the use of compounding.

>Therefore when we use the word "Mallet" properly, we're speaking
>exclusively of the sort of engine he patented and was named after him:
>a compound Mallet. Unless, of course, you're trying to say that
>because various folks use Mallet incorrectly to designate *any*
>articulated locomotive we must accept their incorrect usage.

Look up "non sequitur".

And we are describing the method of articulation he devised.

>But we don't. And as people who are -in theory- interested in steam
>locomotive technology, we shouldn't.

Unless of course we are describing his method of articulation.

>Example: one of my regular customers -now deceased- was a longtime
>Southern Pacific engineer named Tom Moore who ran cab-forwards from
>1941 until they were phased out in the mid '50s. I once asked him
>teasingly why the S.P. engine crews always referred to the big L.A.
>roundhouse as the "Mallet House", since he was always adamant about
>correcting anyone who referred to a cab-forward as a "Mallet".

And?

>His answer was revealing. He said "Oh, it's okay when *we* do it! But
>*we* know the difference!" What he was saying -in case it went past
>you- was that words have distinct meanings, and that if we begin using
>them interchangably they lose their ability to designate between the
>infinite variations of real-world objects.

No. It's just that with the various articulated locomotives, they are
described by the name of the person who devised the articulation
system.

>That's why we have seperate names for different types of articulated
>locomotives: "Beyer-Garret", "Mallet", "Simple Articulated", and so
>on. "Articulated" is the generic word and tells us that the loco is
>hinged in some manner or other, but the individual proper names tell
>us *exactly* what we're speaking of, while using "Mallet" as a generic
>for any articulated loco does not.

NOBODY USES "MALLET" FOR ANY ARTICULATED LOCO.

>Comprendo?

You certainly don't.
David Nebenzahl - 04 Sep 2009 19:26 GMT
On 9/4/2009 3:57 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:

>>> So you cannot come up with a description for a simple expansion
>>> locomotive using Mallet's articulation system because "articulated" is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> You can't have it both ways.

[snip]

OK, OK, cool it already!

Gosh, don't we just love it 'round 'heah when two loco-geeks get in a
big ol' hissy fit?

So my question to the both of youse, as well as anyone else here who
know about this stuff, is this: can you point us to an authoritative
source of information on Mallets and articulation and compounding and
all that?

And puleeze, don't even think about mentioning Wikipedia. I'm talking
about reliable sources, preferably online (I don't currently have access
to much in the way of real railroad books, though I'm sure this would be
the best place to look for such information).

Any such pointers would be appreciated by us here in the peanut gallery
who don't really know all that much about this stuff.

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Wolf K - 05 Sep 2009 03:43 GMT
[....]
> So my question to the both of youse, as well as anyone else here who
> know about this stuff, is this: can you point us to an authoritative
> source of information on Mallets and articulation and compounding and
> all that?

From Loco 1: Steam Locomotives (Linn Westcott, Kalmbach Publishing Co,
1960), p.235 sidebar, "The Articulateds".

"The Mallets were built in Europe from 1888 onward. Alco built the first
in [the USA] for the B&O in 1908. These 0-6-6-0 engines lacked guiding
[pilot] wheels and so were not used for mainline running except as
helpers. The first Mallet road engines were those for the Great
Northern, plan 113. On both of these early engines, Stephenson valve
gear proved impractical and Walschaerts was used."

Westcott also remarks that Mallets are compound engines. At first, he
says, articulated engines were used for slow speed drag freight and hump
yard duty (in part I suspect because balancing the steam consumption and
tractive effort of high and low pressure cylinders is easier at lower
speeds.) Simple articulated engines were built from the 1920s onward,
when reliable high pressure steam-line joints were developed. These
simple engines were built for higher speeds than the Mallets, and
several were dual service locomotives. Westcott also mentions the
problems of insufficient weight on the front engine, etc.

The use of "Mallet" for simple articulateds was, as already mentioned,
an extension of the term for convenience sake. Thank you, Bill May, for
reporting how the term was used when you worked as a fireman, and
especially the etiquette of correct usage. This is the sort of
information that lexicographers love to have. ;-)

As far as I can make out, articulation plus compounding was tried not
only for agility around tight curves, but also for economy: until it was
proven otherwise, people believed that one boiler feeding two engines
would save  fuel and water. As I mentioned earlier, fuel and water are
only two factors in the cost of operating a locomotive.

See also:
Locomotives in Profile, Vol 1 (Brian Reed, ed., New York, Doubleday &
Co, 1971), pp 135-148, "The Mallets".

I have a couple other books that refer to Mallets and other articulated
engines, most of which (including Mallets in Europe) were built for
narrow gauge railways.

Cheers,
wolf k.
Twibil - 06 Sep 2009 08:29 GMT
> Any such pointers would be appreciated by us here in the peanut gallery
> who don't really know all that much about this stuff.

Simple graphic proof that the railroads themselves differentiated
between Mallets and simple articulateds -and called them by those
names- lies in the Southern Pacific's locomotive class designations.

The first S.P. articulateds -which *were* true Mallets- were
designated "MC" -as in "MC-57"- which stood for "Mallet Consolidation
(57" drivers)", and was promptly changed to "MC-1" -"Mallet
Consolidation (1st version)"- just as soon as the S.P. decided that
they were more or less a success and were going to be followed by
other classes of similar locomotives.

When they turned these same locos around to become the first S.P. cab-
forwards, the designation changed to "MC-2"; meaning "Mallet
Consolidation (2nd version)".

And when the MC-2s were later converted to simple articulateds, their
designation changed once more; this time to "AC-1"; meaning
"Articulated Consolidation". (Having been simpled they were no longer
Mallets, and hence lost the "M" designation.)

S.P. continued to use this same system for as long as it had steam
engines, with "MC" or "MM" ("Mallet Mogul") always designating the
true Mallet designs that featured compound cylinders, and "AC" or
"AM" ("Articulated Mogul") always designating the simple articulateds.

Reference book here is Diebert & Strapic's "Southern Pacific Company
Steam Locomotive Compendium", Shade Tree Books, 1987, pp. 221-231.

Now: while it's absolutely true that "Mallet" was often incorrectly
used as slang to designate any old articulated engine, in reality the
railroads, the engine crews, and anyone who knew the difference called
them what they truly were.

"Steam Locomotive" is the set. "Articulated" is a subset of "Steam
Locomotive", and "Mallet" is a subset of "Articulated Steam
Locomotive". One that designates a particular *type* of articulated,
just as "articulated" designates a particular *type* of steam engine.

However, I'm thinking of starting a betting pool on how long it will
take Ser Lee to inform us that Diebert & Strapic -not to mention the
Southern Pacific- "got it wrong".

~Pete
Christopher A. Lee - 06 Sep 2009 11:10 GMT
>Now: while it's absolutely true that "Mallet" was often incorrectly
>used as slang to designate any old articulated engine, in reality the

It isn't. It's only used to described engines using his system of
articulation.

>railroads, the engine crews, and anyone who knew the difference called
>them what they truly were.

Not incorrectly, because it was his system of articulation.

>"Steam Locomotive" is the set. "Articulated" is a subset of "Steam
>Locomotive", and "Mallet" is a subset of "Articulated Steam
>Locomotive". One that designates a particular *type* of articulated,
>just as "articulated" designates a particular *type* of steam engine.

Is it American parochalism because they don't know all the other kinds
of articulation?

>However, I'm thinking of starting a betting pool on how long it will
>take Ser Lee to inform us that Diebert & Strapic -not to mention the
>Southern Pacific- "got it wrong".

More snide nastiness.

Do these simply repeat what others have said like you do, or do they
cite Mallet's original patent?

Why don't YOU post a link to Mallet's patent to back up your claim
instead of secondary sources which simply repeat what others have said
which themselves don't provide an original?

Here's a clue: if you hadn't added some snide remarks about people who
know more than you do not knowing, then this flame fest probably
wouldn't have happened.

Especially if you hadn't cut'n'pasted from a site that simply repeated
it, coupled with a put down insult instead of even trying to
understand why you were wrong.

>~Pete

I haven't found Mallet's patent on line, but interestingly page 461 of
the Biographical Dictionary of the History of Technology, Volume 39 at

http://books.google.com/books?id=nqAOAAAAQAAJ

describes Mallet as "Swiss engineer, inventor of the compound steam
locomotive and the Mallet articulated locomotive"

---------->"And".

Its bibliography reference, ie its source, is "1884, French patent
number 162,876 (articulated locomotive)" which makes me wonder how
many people who make this claim have actually read it or are just
repeating something n-th hand.

In other words the title of the patent is for an articulated
locomotive not a compound articulated.

Which word didn't YOU understand this time?
Christopher A. Lee - 06 Sep 2009 16:25 GMT
>>Now: while it's absolutely true that "Mallet" was often incorrectly
>>used as slang to designate any old articulated engine, in reality the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Is it American parochalism because they don't know all the other kinds
>of articulation?

I found this translation of a paper Mallet himself gave in French, in
Railway locomotives and cars, Volume 65 from 1891

http://books.google.com/books?id=ivk6AAAAMAAJ

It's on pages 202-204.

There is a drawing of his first articulated locomotive, which it
interestingly calls the Decauville system (the builder).

He also refers to a paper from 1877 which I haven't found.

Incidentally, would his first locomotive, a rigid 0-4-2 tank engine
that was a 2-cyliner compound also be called a Mallet by the "logic"
that says only hic compounds should be called Mallets?

Even though it is the label given to both simple and compound engines
using the system of articulation he devised?
Greg.Procter - 07 Sep 2009 04:57 GMT
>>> Now: while it's absolutely true that "Mallet" was often incorrectly
>>> used as slang to designate any old articulated engine, in reality the
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Even though it is the label given to both simple and compound engines
> using the system of articulation he devised?

Mallet's patent refered to the compounding system used on his 0-4-2t loco.
Mallet then went on to invent the articulation system used on the  
Decauville
0-4-4-0T. I'm not aware of a patent on the system of articulation. As
numerous locos have been built with Mallet type articulation by other  
builders
than Decauville in the years that would have been covered by a patent, I  
doubt
that there was a patent.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Twibil - 06 Sep 2009 19:49 GMT
> It isn't. It's only used to described engines using his system of
> articulation.

Cite. I have done so multiple times. You either will not or cannot.

> >"Steam Locomotive" is the set. "Articulated" is a subset of "Steam
> >Locomotive", and "Mallet" is a subset of "Articulated Steam
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Is it American parochalism because they don't know all the other kinds
> of articulation?

Sure. That must be it.

> Do these simply repeat what others have said like you do, or do they
> cite Mallet's original patent?

And that neatly sums up your position:

(A) Pete is wrong.

(B) Any website Pete cites that says anything other than what you want
to believe also "got it wrong".

(C) Diebert and Strapac -who literally wrote the book on S.P. steam-
also somehow "got it wrong".

(D) So did the engine crews who worked the actual locomotives.

(E) The entire Southern Pacific railroad "got it wrong" as well.

(F) And you, who can seemingly provide no cites to back your claim,
are right.

So thanks for that clarification, because it tells us exactly where
you stand: In mid-air with no visible means of support.

And now I bid you a fond farewell.

~Pete
David Nebenzahl - 06 Sep 2009 20:35 GMT
On 9/6/2009 11:49 AM Twibil spake thus:

>> It isn't. It's only used to described engines using his system of
>> articulation.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Sure. That must be it.

Whoa there big guy.

Before you get your panties further bunched up (and the same applies to
Messr. Lee), allow me to intercede a moment if you will.

Don't you think that part of this issue, at least, is the difference
between the specific technical meaning of terms such as "Mallet" and the
common usage of such terms by those in the trade, which may not always
jibe with the actual technical meaning?

In other words, the same term may mean different things to different
people, subject to common usage (shoptalk, parlance, jargon), regardless
of whether that term is precisely technically correctly used.

In the case of a particularly obscure term (to most laypersons) like
"Mallet", seems to me this confusion is only compounded. So before you
huff off calling the other guy a complete a.shole, at least consider the
possibility.

DISCLAIMER: I'm agnostic on the matter, not knowing enough to argue one
way or the other.

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Christopher A. Lee - 06 Sep 2009 21:47 GMT
>> It isn't. It's only used to described engines using his system of
>> articulation.
>
>Cite. I have done so multiple times. You either will not or cannot.

Except that your cites have also merely repeated what other people
have said.

>> >"Steam Locomotive" is the set. "Articulated" is a subset of "Steam
>> >Locomotive", and "Mallet" is a subset of "Articulated Steam
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>And that neatly sums up your position:

Only if you can't read.

The web page you quoted just made the same claim you did without
justifying it or citing any sources. Nor have any others I have found.
Even Wikipedia just refers to a popular railway writer.

It is what some people call the "Wikipedia syndrome" although it's not
just Wikipedia. Something is on the web so it must be right, without
checking it.

The web is a good place to start research because it can tell you what
to look for, but you need to compelete the process by looking for it.

Whereas I have explained WHY people use the name Mallet to describe
locomotives using his system of articulation.

Hint: it's the same reason that Garratts, Meyers, Fairlies and all the
others are given the name of the person who devised that system of
articulation.

And also the same reason that De Glehn, Webb, Von Borries, Smith,
Golsdorf and all the others gave their names to different systems of
compounding.

Whether you like it or not, Mallet devised BOTH the articulation
system that carries his name AND the compound system that also bears
his name.

And whether you like it or not, there are a lot of other systems of
both articulation and compounding which also carry the name of their
developers.

And also whether you like it or not, people with any knowledge of
railway history also recognise Mallet's contribution to compounding.

If the engines were described as "Mallet's patent engine" you might
have had a point. But they're not and you haven't.

Care to tell us what other railway and non-railway patents he took
out?

Would you describe his first patented compounds with 2-cylinders and a
rigid wheelbase, as Mallets?

>(A) Pete is wrong.

Where did Pete cite any original sources?

>(B) Any website Pete cites that says anything other than what you want
>to believe also "got it wrong".

Why do you lie about "anything other than what I want" when you know
perfectly well it's about backing up a claim?

Simply pointing to a web site that makes the claim without backing it
up, doesn't make it so.

I suggest you look up the fallacy of the argument from authority. We
need to know why say something not just that they do.

>(C) Diebert and Strapac -who literally wrote the book on S.P. steam-
>also somehow "got it wrong".

Do any of these quote Mallet's patent?

>(D) So did the engine crews who worked the actual locomotives.

Do any of these quote Mallet's patent?

>(E) The entire Southern Pacific railroad "got it wrong" as well.

Did they quote Mallet's patent?

>(F) And you, who can seemingly provide no cites to back your claim,
>are right.

Why don't you learn to read and address the arguments raised?

>>So thanks for that clarification, because it tells us exactly where
>you stand: In mid-air with no visible means of support.

Why do you feel the need to keep resorting to personal lies and
nastiness?

>And now I bid you a fond farewell.

A tacit admission on your part.

>~Pete

Here's a clue:

If you hadn't snidely said

 A "Mallet", by definition, *is* a compound Mallet, although simple
 articulateds were also sometimes misnomered as Mallets by folks who
 didn't really understand the difference. In their minds two or more
 sets of drivers with a hinge in between equaled a "Mallet".

about people who do actually understand there would have been no
problem.
a_a_a - 06 Sep 2009 23:11 GMT
[twibil drivel deleted]

> Why do you feel the need to keep resorting to personal lies and
> nastiness?

because that is standard twibil behaviour.

>> And now I bid you a fond farewell.
>
> A tacit admission on your part.

But the question is whether his farewells are any more reliable and any
less hypocritical than all his other pronouncements. They are certainly
no less arrogant.
Christopher A. Lee - 07 Sep 2009 00:29 GMT
>[twibil drivel deleted]
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>less hypocritical than all his other pronouncements. They are certainly
>no less arrogant.

I just want a good explanation why "Mallet" shouldn't be used to
describe locomotives using his articulation system. I've never liked
the American use of "articulated" to describe this because in the rest
of the world other forms of articulation were as common if not more
so.

Do Americans consider Shays, Heislers and Climaxes to be articulated?
Wolf K - 07 Sep 2009 01:51 GMT
[...]
> I just want a good explanation why "Mallet" shouldn't be used to
> describe locomotives using his articulation system. I've never liked
> the American use of "articulated" to describe this because in the rest
> of the world other forms of articulation were as common if not more
> so.

You can use the term that way, and it is used thus by many people. But
"technically", the term applies only to compound articulated locomotives.

Really, Chris, there's no point arguing about what a word "really
means." Words just mean what people intend and understand them to mean.
Meanings vary in space and time. This thread has testified to the fact
that "articulated" and "Mallet" are used for several different meanings
when applied to locomotives. What's wrong with that?

> Do Americans consider Shays, Heislers and Climaxes to be articulated?

No. Well, I wouldn't, anyhow. ;-) The engines are mounted on the
locomotive's main frames. The drive wheels are mounted in trucks
(bogies) driven by gears/shafts from the engine. Just like a diesel.

An articulated locomotive is one with two (or more) frames carrying the
engines. These frames are joined (hinged). The term is usually applied
only to steam locomotives, but the GG-1, whose main engineframes are
joined with a hinge, may be considered an articulated electric
locomotive, and has been described as such. (Sorry, citation n/a.)

In USA/Canada, other types of articulation are named, eg, Fairlie.

HTH
wolf k.
Greg.Procter - 07 Sep 2009 05:04 GMT
> [...]
>> I just want a good explanation why "Mallet" shouldn't be used to
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> HTH
> wolf k.

The terms "hinged" and "pivoted" have different meanings.
eg:
a US "Mallet" is hinged between the frames.

a bogie or truck on a Diesel loco is pivoted.
Ditto a Rivarossi US Mallet.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Bob May - 07 Sep 2009 22:35 GMT
And now we are into the standard recriminations and so forth that these
threads retreat to!

--
Bob May

rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
Greg.Procter - 07 Sep 2009 04:52 GMT
>> Any such pointers would be appreciated by us here in the peanut gallery
>> who don't really know all that much about this stuff.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> take Ser Lee to inform us that Diebert & Strapic -not to mention the
> Southern Pacific- "got it wrong".

Until you show otherwise, Mallet invented the form of articulation
consisting of ...

That being the case, "Mallet" refers to a form of compounding.
His compounding patent does not mention any form of articulation.
Logically, "Mallet articulation" can refer either to a compound system
articulated locomotive or a simple articulated locomotive.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Brian Bailey - 07 Sep 2009 16:55 GMT
> >> Any such pointers would be appreciated by us here in the peanut gallery
> >> who don't really know all that much about this stuff.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> > take Ser Lee to inform us that Diebert & Strapic -not to mention the
> > Southern Pacific- "got it wrong".

> Until you show otherwise, Mallet invented the form of articulation
> consisting of ...

> That being the case, "Mallet" refers to a form of compounding.
> His compounding patent does not mention any form of articulation.
> Logically, "Mallet articulation" can refer either to a compound system
> articulated locomotive or a simple articulated locomotive.

Oh dear! All this medieval, how many patentees can dance on the head of
pin, kind of argument  ...  come on guys, this is a hardly "The War of
Jenkin's ear" (see wiki.) is it! 8-)

However, I found the following on www.steamindex.com/people/cotengr.htm
which just might be of interest. I have no idea as to the extent of it
being right or wrong, though I don't suppose for one minute that it will
resolve any conflicts. 8-)

Mallet, Jules T. Anatole

Westwood, claims that Jules Anatole Mallet was remarkable amongst late
nineteenth century innovators in that he achieved a influential success
both in compounding and in a method for articulating the driving
wheelbase. The resulting Mallet articulated locomotive became especially
popular in the USA, where it attained great size. Mallet‘s ideas on
compounding inspired many subsequent designers to develop their own
compound locomotives, some successfully, some very unsuccessfully.

Mallet was born at Carouge, near Geneva, in 1837, and studied and later
taught engineering at the Paris Ecole Centrale des Arts et Manufactures.
He first attracted attention in 1877, when the Bayonne-Biarritz Railway
put two tank locomotives into service, designed according to Mallet‘s
two-cylinder compound system with a single high-pressure cylinder passing
its exhaust steam into a second, larger, low-pressure cylinder. The
Biarritz locomotives worked well, but like subsequent two-cylinder
compounds they tended to be unsteady at high speed, because one cylinder
exerted more thrust than the other. Mallet was unable to interest any of
the mainline railways in his idea. This lack of enthusiasm is not
surprising when it is remembered that even after compounding had been
adopted by many railways, it was never adopted by a majority. Those who
rejected the idea almost always did so on the grounds that any fuel
economies obtained from so-called double expansion were lost by the extra
complication of compound machines. This criticism of compounding would be
reinforced after superheated steam had shown another way of overcoming the
basic problem that compounding attacked: that is the condensation of steam
inside the cylinders which resulted from the fall in temperature as the
steam expanded. Compounding broke the steam expansion into two parts,
divided between two cylinders and thereby made it easier to cope with
cylinder wall condensation. Superheating raised the steam temperature so
that even after cooling it would remain higher than condensation
temperature. Ideally, from the point of view of thermal efficiency, the
most efficient machine would be one embodying both superheating and
compounding, and many such machines were built in the twentieth century.
In the 1870s, however, compounding seemed the only solution. Mallet
believed he had a workable compound system, but could not persuade French
engineers to try it.

However, the proliferation at that time of narrow-gauge light railways
gave Mallet another avenue of approach. These lines required more powerful
locomotives than their winding tracks could tolerate, and the only
solution seemed to be some form of articulated locomotive. Two
articulation systems were already fairly widely adopted. These were the
and the Meyer concepts, both of which embodied two pivoting engine units,
supplied by steam through pipes with flexible joints. These flexible
joints, so difficult to keep steamtight, were a weakness of these systems,
and Mallet believed he had a solution in his own system of articulation,
which he patented in 1884. Instead of two pivoting engine units, he had
just one, placed beneath the smokebox. A second engine unit was at the
rear, but this was non-pivoting. It was on this rigid rear unit that the
boiler was fixed. For Mallet, the important feature of this layout was
that it was a perfect setting for a compound system. Steam was taken first
to the high-pressure cylinders of the rigid rear unit, and then piped to
the cylinders of the leading pivoting unit for re-use at a lower pressure.
In this way it was only the low- pressure steam which passed through the
flexible steampipe joints, thereby easing the problem of steam leaks. The
first such Mallet locomotive appeared in 1888, being built in Belgium for
Paul Decauville. In 1889 Decauville‘s 60cm gauge line at the Paris
Exhibition carried more than six million visitors and assured the
continuing success of his enterprise. It also assured the future success
of Mallet‘s compound articulated locomotive, for it was on this line that
the first Mallet units made their debut.

The obvious success of these machines was followed by orders for similar
narrow-gauge units from many railways, at first with the same 0-4-4-0T
wheel arrangement but later in other versions. In the nineties the Mallet
tank locomotive was joined by the Mallet tender locomotive in Switzerland
and Germany.

1904 the Baltimore &amp; Ohio Railroad introduced the Mallet concept to
America, ordering an 0-6-6-0 from the American Locomotive Company for use
on its Sand Patch incline over the Alleghenies. By 1911 more than five
hundred Mallets had been built for US railroads. During the First World
War the Virginian Railway brought the original Mallet concept to a peak so
far as size was concerned, ordering 2-10-10-2 units whose low-pressure
cylinders were 48in. in diameter. This Virginian design represented the
virtual limit of size for the conventional Mallet locomotive. The overhang
of the boiler at the front end on curves was excessive, and the low
pressure cylinders were so large that it was impossible to design adequate
valves for them, which meant that they worked efficiently only at low
speeds and long cut-offs.. Moreover, the 4ft diameter cylinders were the
biggest that could be accommodated on American railroads. For this reason
most subsequent American Mallet locomotives were simples, not compounds.
Later, American designers eliminated another fault which inhibited
high-speed running with Mallet locomotives. This was the rough riding of
the forward engine unit, which was only loosely attached to the main bulk
of the locomotive.

Eventually Jabelman of the Union Pacific modified the articulation and
applied a four-wheel leading truck to produce the Challenger  4-6-6-4,
which could run up to 80 mile/h. This type was developed into the 4-8-8-4
Big Boys, which are regarded as the most powerful locomotives ever built.
Although, at its peak of popularity, the Mallet locomotive was ordered by
railways in many parts of the world, it was only in America that it
retained its market up to the end of the age of steam.

Garratt form of articulation, developed later, was technically superior,
while many central European lines found that they did not really need
articulated types. As for Anatole Mallet, it is said that he did not
approve of the concept of the simple Mallet locomotive, as he had evolved
his system of articulation as a means of promoting his compound system. In
the twentieth century he was something of a grand old man of French
engineering, regularly contributing comments on locomotive matters to the
Memoires of the French society of civil engineers. He also designed the
original locomotives for the Lartigue monorail system. Relatively little
information has survived about Mallet the man, even though he was probably
one of the three most important post-Stephenson locomotive engineers.
Marshall noted that he died in October 1919..

Les Locomotives Articulees du Systeme Mallet dans le Monde A. E. Durrant,
The Mallet Locomotive On the compounding of locomotive engines. Proc.
Instn Mech. Engrs,

Cheers,

Brian
Greg.Procter - 07 Sep 2009 04:45 GMT
> On 9/4/2009 3:57 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> source of information on Mallets and articulation and compounding and  
> all that?

Kalmbach reprinted a book on (almost) all known different forms of  
articulation.
I think  it was some time in the 1960s. I have a copy boxed away somewhere  
if you
need a precise reference.
Chapelon was the French engineer who wrote the definitive railway engineers
book on compounding. Don't personally have a copy - it's expensive!
Camden Books in the UK will have a copy if anyone does.

> And puleeze, don't even think about mentioning Wikipedia. I'm talking  
> about reliable sources,

> Wikipaedia is reliably wrong!

> preferably online (I don't currently have access to much in the way of  
> real railroad books, though I'm sure this would be the best place to  
> look for such information).
>
> Any such pointers would be appreciated by us here in the peanut gallery  
> who don't really know all that much about this stuff.
David Nebenzahl - 04 Sep 2009 19:19 GMT
On 9/4/2009 1:48 AM Twibil spake thus:

> Example: one of my regular customers -now deceased- was a longtime
> Southern Pacific engineer named Tom Moore who ran cab-forwards from
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> His answer was revealing. He said "Oh, it's okay when *we* do it! But
> *we* know the difference!"

That's similar to what I think about people who pronounce my home state
"ill-a-NOISE". Being from Chicago, it's OK for *me* to pronounce it that
way, but certainly not OK for you to.

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Roger T. - 05 Sep 2009 01:07 GMT
> That's similar to what I think about people who pronounce my home state
> "ill-a-NOISE".

Yeah.

It's as bad as "Eyraq", "Eyeran", "Eyetalians", "Booey" (instead of "Boy"
for "buoy") or "Sub-mer-rean-ers" instead of "Sub-mah-rin-ers", etc., etc..
:-)

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Wolf K - 05 Sep 2009 03:46 GMT
>> That's similar to what I think about people who pronounce my home state
>> "ill-a-NOISE".
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for "buoy") or "Sub-mer-rean-ers" instead of "Sub-mah-rin-ers", etc., etc..
> :-)

Booey for "bouy" is a dialectical variation. Saying "boy" in some parts
of the East Coast will get you rather strange looks.... ;-)

Never call down another person's dialect. In his ears, you're the one
with the accent.

Hah!

Cheers, wolf k.
LD - 05 Sep 2009 05:38 GMT
>> That's similar to what I think about people who pronounce my home state
>> "ill-a-NOISE".
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for "buoy") or "Sub-mer-rean-ers" instead of "Sub-mah-rin-ers", etc.,
> etc.. :-)

fellafellaffalorry
Twibil - 06 Sep 2009 07:20 GMT
> > His answer was revealing. He said "Oh, it's okay when *we* do it! But
> > *we* know the difference!"
>
> That's similar to what I think about people who pronounce my home state
> "ill-a-NOISE". Being from Chicago, it's OK for *me* to pronounce it that
> way, but certainly not OK for you to.

Or "Frisco"; which causes many San Franciscans to see red when it's
used by outsiders, but is commonly used by San Franciscans
themselves...

~Pete
Steve Caple - 06 Sep 2009 08:39 GMT
> That's similar to what I think about people who pronounce my home state
> "ill-a-NOISE".

Er, uh, that's the "Sucker State", yeah?

Signature

Steve

David Nebenzahl - 06 Sep 2009 19:41 GMT
On 9/6/2009 12:39 AM Steve Caple spake thus:

>> That's similar to what I think about people who pronounce my home state
>> "ill-a-NOISE".
>
> Er, uh, that's the "Sucker State", yeah?

I beg your pardon.

I may have to get Carl Sandburg to send his homies over to open up a can
of whupass on you.

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Steve Caple - 07 Sep 2009 03:06 GMT
> I beg your pardon.
>
> I may have to get Carl Sandburg to send his homies over to open up a can
> of whupass on you.

I'm one of his homies  -  born in Decatur, IL (Macon County Hospital), the
same year the Wabash class P-1 Hudsons were born.

Signature

Steve

David Nebenzahl - 07 Sep 2009 04:03 GMT
On 9/6/2009 7:06 PM Steve Caple spake thus:

>> I beg your pardon.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I'm one of his homies  -  born in Decatur, IL (Macon County Hospital), the
> same year the Wabash class P-1 Hudsons were born.

OK. You can call it "ill-a-noise".

Decatur, huh? "Downstate" to me. I think the only time I was even near
there was when my dad took us to Springfield, Lincoln's log cabin and
all that, back in the 19-ought-60s, and to the Cahokia (sp?) mounds. Are
those around there?

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Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Steve Caple - 07 Sep 2009 07:36 GMT
> Decatur, huh? "Downstate" to me. I think the only time I was even near
> there was when my dad took us to Springfield, Lincoln's log cabin and
> all that, back in the 19-ought-60s, and to the Cahokia (sp?) mounds. Are
> those around there?

You probably went to the park at New Salem, NW of Springfield  -  they have
a number of buildings and cabins reconstructed during the '30s; even
Decatur has some reconstructed log buildings, not all on the original sites
as I recall, and an old log courthouse that they moved to it's current site
-  Old Abe is big business in mid-state Illinois.  Cahokia though is a ways
further south, practically just across the river from St Louis, in or near
Collinsville.

Speaking of Lincoln and his times  -  and his generals  -  have you read
"Master of War" by Benson Bobrick?  He makes a good case that Grant and
Sherman and Schofield smeared George Thomas, taking credit for his
successes, blaming him for their screw-ups, and never crediting him for
saving their bacon several times.  Thomas was generally much more sparing
of the lives of his troops and much better at seeing them well provided
for.  None of the classic "hey diddle diddle, right up the middle" BS so
emblematic of mediocre generals.  Not to detract from Grant's willingness
to at least DO something, compared to McClellan:  Grant would rip off the
scab, while McClellan would worry at it for months, and lose almost as many
troops for no gain.  By comparison Thomas engaged in clean surgery.  But
Grant and company had the PR machine and the chutzpah to use it.  The
biggest slimeball in the bunch is Schofield  -  so of course the Army named
an installation for him in Hawaii, he was their kind of guy, a hero in his
own mind in the Westmoreland mold.

Signature

Steve

Greg.Procter - 07 Sep 2009 04:38 GMT
>> So you cannot come up with a description for a simple expansion
>> locomotive using Mallet's articulation system because "articulated" is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> somebody first hitched two horse-drawn wagons together. (And this was
> pointed out earlier in this thread by someone else.)

I think that if you look a bit closer you'll notice that your two
axled horse-drawn cart has the "hinge" directly in the center of the
pivoted axle. You'll also find that modern two-axled truck trailers
with a pivoted leading axle usually have the same arrangement.
There's a good reason why they do it that way rather than placing
a hinge mid-way between the two axles.

> That's why we have seperate names for different types of articulated
> locomotives: "Beyer-Garret", "Mallet", "Simple Articulated", and so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Comprendo?

"Mallet" is a specific form of articulation - Mallet invented it and
it should _only_ be used in reference to a locomotive with one fixed
frame (or engine unit) and a second frame (or engine unit) hinged to
it.

The fact that Mallet only patented a compounding system does not
alter the fact that he invented an articulation system.
If you ever tried to patent something, you'd know how expensive
it is to do so and you'd possibly understand why many inventions are not  
patented.

Regards,
Greg.P.
NZ
Greg.Procter - 04 Sep 2009 04:49 GMT
>> >> Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
>> >> Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and  
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> What part of this did you not understand?

A.Mallet patented a compounding system for an 0-6-0T loco for his  
proprietry
600mm (2feet) gauge field railway system. His customers weren't happy with
the capabilities of such a tiny loco so he quickly designed an 0-4-4-0T  
with
the front engine unit hinged to the mainframe which included the rear  
engine
unit. He made the mainframe engine unit cylinders high pressure and the  
hinged
engine unit low pressure to minimise steam leakage across the hinged join.

The term "Mallet" was applied to hinged frame locos because Mallet was the  
first
to build that layout. Few French or European locos were built in that  
format.

US builders took up the concept because of it's simplicity and because  
there
were no royalties to be paid.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Christopher A. Lee - 04 Sep 2009 14:08 GMT
>>> >> Fascinating stuff. Thanks. But I was actually thinking about simple
>>> >> Mallets rather than compound. Didn't some of these come well and  
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>
>> What part of this did you not understand?

This was nothing close to being a primary source. Just a railfan site
repeating what other sites say without any attribution.

But of course it's on the web so it must be correct.

Some web pages refer to P. Ransome Wallis who was a popular railway
writer so it is possible he originated this. Or could himself be
repeating this.

>A.Mallet patented a compounding system for an 0-6-0T loco for his  
>proprietry 600mm (2feet) gauge field railway system. His customers
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>engine unit low pressure to minimise steam leakage across the
>hinged join.

His initial compounds were two-cylindered and suffered from uneven
piston thrust.

>The term "Mallet" was applied to hinged frame locos because Mallet
>was the first to build that layout. Few French or European locos were
>built in that format.

It was preceded by the Fairlie and the Meyer that I know about. If it
had been the first one it might be legitimate just to call it
"articulated".

Or more accurately "semi-articulated".

>US builders took up the concept because of it's simplicity and because  
>there were no royalties to be paid.

I haven't found Mallet's patent on line, but interestingly page 461 of
the Biographical Dictionary of the History of Technology, Volume 39 at
http://books.google.com/books?id=nqAOAAAAQAAJ

describes Mallet as "Swiss engineer, inventor of the compound steam
locomotive and the Mallet articulated locomotive"

---------->"And".

Its bibliography reference, ie its source, is "1884, French patent
number 162,876 (articulated locomotive)" which makes me wonder how
many people who make this claim have actually read it or are just
repeating something n-th hand.

It is a large book and takes a long time to download.

I don't have my copy of Jan Van Riemsdijk's book on compound
locomotives to hand, but if any book has it, it would most likely be
his.

Strictly speaking he didn't invent the compound, even the compound
locomotive. It was just the first successful one.

James Samuel and John Nicholson had their "continuous expansion"
locomotives on the Eastern Counties Railway in 1850, and there was a
tandem compound on the Erie in 1867.

Compounding was invented by Arthur Woolf and patented in 1805 although
this was for stationary beam engines. There was even an earlier
invention in 1781 by a gentleman called Hornblower, but this was
prevented because James Watt claimed it infringed his patents.

>Regards,
>Greg.P.
Bob May - 03 Sep 2009 22:58 GMT
As the fireman of a loco, I've experienced more than enough slippage from
idiot engineers pulling the throttle out too fast.  It also tends to pull
the fire out the stack at the same time!
Early artuculated designs didn't go through the process too well of
equalizing the weight on the drivers.  Also doing compound engines (Mallet
designs) made for even more fun in the engineering dept. that they didn't
figure on.

--
Bob May

rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
Steve Caple - 04 Sep 2009 14:59 GMT
> A "Mallet", by definition, *is* a compound Mallet, although simple
> articulateds were also sometimes misnomered as Mallets by folks who
> didn't really understand the difference. In their minds two or more
> sets of drivers with a hinge in between equaled a "Mallet".

Indeed, on the SP cab forwards were often called "backup Mallies", and the
long shed alongside the Dunsmuir roundhouse was called the "Malley house".
Perhaps reasonable since the first cab forwards WERE compounds, but as time
went on SP ordered only simple articulateds, cab forward or not, and
eventually converted most of the compounds to simple locomotives.

Signature

Steve

Bob May - 03 Sep 2009 22:49 GMT
We're off on severa tangents here i in this thread.
As to weight balance, Mallets (the engines with high pressure cylinders on
one set of drivers and a low pressure cylinders on another set of drivers)
have the problem of not having the ability to provide equal power to the two
sets of drivers.  This is because the high pressure vylinders have steam and
the low pressure cylinders don't.  Some work was done to provide high
pressure steam to the low pressure cylinders to provide that power but then
it was easy to overdo it and get the low pressure engine to slip instead.
In addition, some engines weren't balanced properly to provide the right
amount of TE at running speeds and the setting of the Johnson bar didn't
help in that regard either.
After all of that, you also have the effforts of stupidity by the
engineering staft making the loco to over/under power the loco engine
compared to the boiler cap. and so forth and things are all over the place.
In all, the idea of using steam is a good idea which has been well used in
stationary and marine applications but due to the way that railroad locos
were run, they really didn't do all that great.

--
Bob May

rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
Twibil - 04 Sep 2009 04:32 GMT
> We're off on severa tangents here i in this thread. (Snip)

Bob, unless you include the part of the previous post that you're
replying to, nobody else reading the Newsgroup can have any idea of
*which* post you're replying to, who the author of that post was, or
what point you're trying to make.

If you do as I did above; leaving the original poster's name at the
top of the page -including enough of his post to provide a reference
point- and then edit out the excess before you type in your reply,
everyone will be able to figure out what you're talking about.

And we'd like that. A lot. Because an old fireman like you almost
certainly has some information worth sharing.

~Pete
Steve Caple - 04 Sep 2009 15:06 GMT
> Bob, unless you include the part of the previous post that you're
> replying to, nobody else reading the Newsgroup can have any idea of
> *which* post you're replying to, who the author of that post was, or
> what point you're trying to make.

Well, from his reply's position in the message tree, assuming we're using
the best capablities of a tree structured news viewer, we can infer the
target, and indeed his comment was generic to the entire thread.

Signature

Steve

Christopher A. Lee - 04 Sep 2009 15:38 GMT
>We're off on severa tangents here i in this thread.
>As to weight balance, Mallets (the engines with high pressure cylinders on
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>amount of TE at running speeds and the setting of the Johnson bar didn't
>help in that regard either.

Most rigid compounds had bypass valves to route high pressure steam to
the low pressure side on starting because of this problem.

But this negates the claimed advantage of compound mallets that there
are no high pressure connections to the front power unit.

>After all of that, you also have the efforts of stupidity by the
>engineering staft making the loco to over/under power the loco engine
>compared to the boiler cap. and so forth and things are all over the place.
>In all, the idea of using steam is a good idea which has been well used in
>stationary and marine applications but due to the way that railroad locos
>were run, they really didn't do all that great.

The legendary Cornish Engines used in tin and other mines in the late
1700s and early 1800s were often compound. In fact Woolf took out a
patent for this in something like 1805.
Wolf K - 30 Aug 2009 17:24 GMT
> On 8/29/2009 11:39 AM Christopher A. Lee spake thus:

[...]
>> What air hoses?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I find this hard to believe. [...]

I lived in England off and on 1945-54, in Stratford-upon-Avon my
mother's hometown), about 1/2 a block from the GWR. Most freight trains
were "unfitted." You could here the slack running in and out from a mile
away, if the wind was right.

These trains were short (30 wagons was a "long" train", and travelled
slo-o-o-owly - about 15-20mph by my (hindsighted) estimate.

cheers,
wolf k.
Greg.Procter - 02 Sep 2009 04:03 GMT
>> I asked a question a while back that probably was too narrow to get a
>> detailed answer. Basically the US and European coupler systems are
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Yes, but not particularly gently. The buffers would be compressed so
> the chain had enough slack to hook it up.

That's not correct!
Britain used loose link couplers on goods wagons. (from c1800 to c1960)
3 links.
Sometime about 1920 a variation which used ao open T shaped link which
was flipped after coupling to reduce the loose slack. Smooth train  
operation
depended on journal friction and the Brake Van at the rear of the train
to keep the train stretched.
Small goods locos (0-6-0) could haul relatively heavy trains at slow speeds
because such a train could be reversed to eliminate the slack and then got
moving one wagon at a time. Of course they were limited on gradients, but
Britain is relatively flat.
 European goods trains had screw couplers from 1858. The screw link was
thrown over the center coupler hook and then the screw link was tightened
until the opposing buffers were gently compressed. The coupling and buffer
springs were then in compression tension against each other. The advantage
is that shock loads are greatly reduced. Offsetting this is the fact that
the entire train runs as a single unit. IMO this is a major reason why
European goods trains are generally short and therefore run at higher  
speeds.

> Britain and (I think) the rest of Europe had what they called "hump"
> marshalling yards which sound a bit like the sloped section you talk
> about - the wagons were pushed over a small hill and then freewheeled
> through a fan of turnouts onto the right track. There were retarders
> to slow the wagons down to the right speed.The only real difference
> was that coupling up was done manually.

US trains still need the brake hoses coupling manually. The shunting
assistant might as well couple the wagons while he is there!
;-)

Regards,
Greg.P.
Roger T. - 02 Sep 2009 04:29 GMT
>> Yes, but not particularly gently. The buffers would be compressed so
>> the chain had enough slack to hook it up.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> was flipped after coupling to reduce the loose slack. Smooth train
> operation.

I've already covered that.  And the "T" shaped coupler was called the
"Instanter", already covered that aswell.

> depended on journal friction and the Brake Van at the rear of the train
> to keep the train stretched.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> European goods trains are generally short and therefore run at higher
> speeds.

We've covered all of that as well.

>> Britain and (I think) the rest of Europe had what they called "hump"
>> marshalling yards which sound a bit like the sloped section you talk
>> about - the wagons were pushed over a small hill and then freewheeled
>> through a fan of turnouts onto the right track. There were retarders
>> to slow the wagons down to the right speed.The only real difference
>> was that coupling up was done manually

And all that.

> US trains still need the brake hoses coupling manually. The shunting
> assistant might as well couple the wagons while he is there!

And that.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Greg.Procter - 02 Sep 2009 22:57 GMT
>>> Yes, but not particularly gently. The buffers would be compressed so
>>> the chain had enough slack to hook it up.
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> And that.

OK, haven't kept up with this thread - however, I started my post to  
correct
incorrect information being posted.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Bernhard Agthe - 02 Sep 2009 15:39 GMT
Hi,

> US trains still need the brake hoses coupling manually. The shunting
> assistant might as well couple the wagons while he is there!
> ;-)

A few years back I was watching a few wagons being coupled to the train
I was riding on. The guy was standing right inside the buffers as the
extra wagons approached - with no way to get out quickly... This may be
forbidden, but I'd rather see center couplers than such a procedure!

So, in this case I do appreciate any country with center couplers
installed throughout the system! No matter whether the brake lines need
manual coupling...

Apart from that, especially freight trains are quite often not coupled
as closely with the screw-couplers as they should be, nor are passenger
trains... So there still is the possibility to "reverse" the engine and
compress the train, so as to start the train a wagon at a time - even if
it's less than with a very loose coupler. Actually, if the engine crew
does it right while stopping the train, they have the train already
compressed when starting.

But most freight trains I do see are quite short (five locos with 12
wagons!) or mostly empty (10 container on ~20 wagons), so this ain't
necessary anyway.

In the end, it's not always "black and white" as in "good and bad", but
mostly some shade of "gray" - screw-type couplers have some advantages
over center couplers and vice versa... Both the American as well as the
European systems have derailments, trains "loosing" wagons, whatever...
Neither system uses a fully automatic coupler...

Actually I do think, a fully automatic coupler might simply not work
well - imagine some attachment to the normal coupler that connects the
brake lines and opens the valve once the lines connect. If a wagon
separated from the train, the valves would close and the separate wagon
would continue rolling for quite a time without braking! So either there
is some built-in failsafe safeguard or this ain't possible? Probably it
would be sufficient to delay closing the valves after separation for a
second or two? Again, very gray ;-)

This - in a much smaller scale - is a point on a model railroad - badly
aligned couplers and train separation... To my shame I must admit I do
have a few such cars...

Ciao...
Bob May - 02 Sep 2009 21:34 GMT
One thing to remember is that American practice diverged strongly from
European practice very quickly.  Europeans did short trains with small power
till just recently and thus didn't need the American style couplers that
would allow rapid assembly of trains of long length.  Thus the European need
for air braking systems and so forth weren't as needed.
For a reference of how far the two systems had diverged, go look at the
testing done on the Karuss-Maffei locos destined for the DRG and SP in the
'60s.  Very interesting story.

--
Bob May

rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
Greg.Procter - 02 Sep 2009 23:14 GMT
> One thing to remember is that American practice diverged strongly from
> European practice very quickly.  Europeans did short trains with small  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> need
> for air braking systems and so forth weren't as needed.

All European trains have and had air braking  for the last 150 odd years.

> For a reference of how far the two systems had diverged, go look at the
> testing done on the Karuss-Maffei locos destined for the DRG and SP in  
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
> http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net

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Mike Hughes - 03 Sep 2009 03:04 GMT
>> One thing to remember is that American practice diverged strongly from
>> European practice very quickly.  Europeans did short trains with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>All European trains have and had air braking  for the last 150 odd years.

I think you are wrong. Most British trains were vacuum braked until
relatively recent (40 odd years) times.

That is assuming you include Britain as par of the European continent.

Signature

Mike Hughes
A Taxi driver licensed for London and Brighton
at home in Tarring, West Sussex, England
Interested in American trains real and model?
Look here http://mikehughes627.fotopic.net/

Greg.Procter - 03 Sep 2009 04:08 GMT
>>> One thing to remember is that American practice diverged strongly from
>>> European practice very quickly.  Europeans did short trains with small  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> That is assuming you include Britain as par of the European continent.

Britain part of the European Continent?
Absolutely not - for most of the period that railways have existed, Europe
was isolated from Britain by the English Channel, or by La Manche from the
French point of view.
As such European and British railways developed separately.
Other parts of Europe also used vacuum brakes, but if they wanted to run
wagons outside their own systems they had either to add parallel airbrakes
or convert. Through air brake piping was the absolute minimum.

Regards,
Greg.P.
David Nebenzahl - 03 Sep 2009 04:13 GMT
On 9/2/2009 7:04 PM Mike Hughes spake thus:

>>> One thing to remember is that American practice diverged strongly
>>> from European practice very quickly. Europeans did short trains
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I think you are wrong. Most British trains were vacuum braked until
> relatively recent (40 odd years) times.

Isn't vacuum braking a form of air braking? (Uses air, after all.)

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Greg.Procter - 03 Sep 2009 05:05 GMT
> On 9/2/2009 7:04 PM Mike Hughes spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Isn't vacuum braking a form of air braking? (Uses air, after all.)

It's more a "no air" system.
Like IBM and Apple, both personal computers operating on binary code, but  
...

Regards,
Greg.P.
Roger T. - 03 Sep 2009 05:26 GMT
>>All European trains have and had air braking  for the last 150 odd years.
>>
> I think you are wrong. Most British trains were vacuum braked until
> relatively recent (40 odd years) times.
>
> That is assuming you include Britain as par of the European continent.

I thought most Brits still do not consider themselves Euros, regardless of
the EU.   I know they didn't when I lived there.  :-)

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Steve Caple - 03 Sep 2009 06:10 GMT
> I thought most Brits still do not consider themselves Euros

Yeah, they're pounds.

Signature

Steve

Roger T. - 03 Sep 2009 07:09 GMT
>> I thought most Brits still do not consider themselves Euros
>
> Yeah, they're pounds.

Har de har-har.  :-)

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Bob May - 03 Sep 2009 23:15 GMT
Sorry guy but the whole thread indicated different than that.  While I won't
disagree that there are some trains that did have air brakes in Europe, most
of the trains didn't as exposed by other comments in the thread.
Sounds basicly more  like you're just a nitwit.

--
Bob May

rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
David Nebenzahl - 04 Sep 2009 01:49 GMT
On 9/3/2009 3:16 PM Bob May spake thus:

> Sorry guy but the whole thread indicated different than that.  While I won't
> disagree that there are some trains that did have air brakes in Europe, most
> of the trains didn't as exposed by other comments in the thread.
> Sounds basicly more  like you're just a nitwit.

Since I have no idea *who* you're replying to here or what specific
point you're commenting on since you don't do quoting, I can only
conclude that you're just a nitwit.

You know, if *every* other person here quotes, and attributes quotes, in
more or less the same fashion, and you're the odd man out, well, *you*
figure out who ought to change the way they post.

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Steve Caple - 04 Sep 2009 15:09 GMT
> Since I have no idea *who* you're replying to here or what specific
> point you're commenting on since you don't do quoting, I can only
> conclude that you're just a nitwit.

Whoa  -  you and Twibil are getting a bit Procterish around the head and
shoulders  -  perhaps you've had your heads into it a bit too much, and
that CAN be one of the hazards of Procterology, but please don't leave your
heads up and locked.

Signature

Steve

David Nebenzahl - 04 Sep 2009 19:33 GMT
On 9/4/2009 7:09 AM Steve Caple spake thus:

>> Since I have no idea *who* you're replying to here or what specific
>> point you're commenting on since you don't do quoting, I can only
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that CAN be one of the hazards of Procterology, but please don't leave your
> heads up and locked.

I disagree. This is nothing like netkkkopping; just a reminder to one
particularly stubborn individual that he's quite out of sync with the
way almost everyone else here posts (and for good reason).

Or to quote Kafka*: "In the fight between you and the world, back the
world."

* Possibly out of context here, but hey, if the shoe fits ...

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Greg.Procter - 07 Sep 2009 05:34 GMT
>> Since I have no idea *who* you're replying to here or what specific
>> point you're commenting on since you don't do quoting, I can only
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> your
> heads up and locked.

Easy child, easy!
A "Proctor" in the USa is the person who oversees tertiary examinations.
I can quite understand that that would be outside the realms of Twibel's
experience or understanding and that he would confuse "proctologist", being
as how he is so anally focused, but I had expected better of you.

Regards,
Greg.P.
David Nebenzahl - 07 Sep 2009 05:38 GMT
On 9/6/2009 9:34 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:

>>> Since I have no idea *who* you're replying to here or what specific
>>> point you're commenting on since you don't do quoting, I can only
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Easy child, easy!
> A "Proctor" in the USa is the person who oversees tertiary examinations.

He said "Procterish", not "proctorish", you stupid f.cking twit.

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Greg.Procter - 08 Sep 2009 03:16 GMT
> On 9/6/2009 9:34 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> He said "Procterish", not "proctorish", you stupid f.cking twit.

According to a genealogist website I looked at there are 24 different
spellings of "Procter".
If twitty Twibble and Co can wander from Procter to proctologist then
Procter to Proctor is surely neither here nor there.
BTW it's of Latin origin - you know, Rome, the greatest miltary ever.

Regards,
Greg.P.
David Nebenzahl - 08 Sep 2009 03:43 GMT
On 9/7/2009 7:16 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:

> If twitty Twibble and Co can wander from Procter to proctologist then
> Procter to Proctor is surely neither here nor there.
> BTW it's of Latin origin - you know, Rome, the greatest miltary ever.

Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military
excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...

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Greg.Procter - 08 Sep 2009 03:59 GMT
> On 9/7/2009 7:16 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military  
> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...

Hey, I'd fawn over you lot too if you were all dead and gone 1600 years!
;-)
Roger T. - 08 Sep 2009 04:05 GMT
> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military
> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...

Roman Empire?  Pah!  At it's peak, the British Empire was the largest ever
Empire both in actual land area under control and as a percentage of the
known world area.   Not politically correct to tout UK history, both outside
and inside the UK.

Romans were beginners.

Signature

Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

LD - 08 Sep 2009 04:34 GMT
>> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military
>> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Romans were beginners.

They did conquer the English.
Roger T. - 08 Sep 2009 04:47 GMT
>> Romans were beginners.
>
> They did conquer the English.

We don't talk about that.  :-)

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Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Steve Caple - 08 Sep 2009 06:48 GMT
>>> Romans were beginners.
>>
>> They did conquer the English.
>
> We don't talk about that.  :-)

Or losing to a bunch of pissed off colonials, eh?

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Steve

Roger T. - 08 Sep 2009 07:45 GMT
> Or losing to a bunch of pissed off colonials, eh?

A bunch of pissed off colonials supported by German mercenaries, the French
navy, the French at the time being the greater threat to the security of the
UK, and whose own navy was made up mostly of (smart) deserters from the
Royal Navy.  They also beat the crap out of the British ground forces but
forces from Canada did burn down the White House in retaliation for the
sacking of York, now known as Toronto.

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Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Steve Caple - 08 Sep 2009 18:38 GMT
> A bunch of pissed off colonials supported by German mercenaries, the French

Uh, I do believe the Crown brought Hessian mercenaries hired from one of
hte King's cousins.  Many of them later did desert, not surprising given
the general quality of the titled and monied and talentless appointed to
lead them.  Many more stayed on after collapse of the Brit effort, not
surprisingly unwilling to go back to a princeling who had rented them out
to such incompeent twits and would probably do so again, and simultaneously
attracted to a new land where they could escape rigid social heirarchy,
despite the best efforts of Alexander Hamilton and his cronies.

> navy, the French at the time being the greater threat to the security of the
> UK, and whose own navy was made up mostly of (smart) deserters from the
> Royal Navy.  They also beat the crap out of the British ground forces but
> forces from Canada did burn down the White House in retaliation for the
> sacking of York, now known as Toronto.

Well, jumping to your last bit, you're confusing the Revolutonary War with
the War of 1812, though continuation of the same it may with some
justification be seen.  And your Royal Navy (whose traditions, according to
one W. Spencer Churchill were "rum, sodomy, and the lash"  -  or was that
Brit "Public" schools he meant?  Or the same as no difference?) was
impressing American seamen they claimed were deserters from various Capt.
Blighs during that self-same War of 1812.  Oh yes  -  that is the war in
which another pompous twit, lost, and unaware the war had been ended by
treaty, had his a.s handed to him by that later racist "Indian fighter"
Andrew Jackson and a motley crew of troops and civilians and pirates.
Classic "hey diddle diddle, right up the middle" if ever there was, on the
part of Gen'l John Keane, who desite his name was definitely not the
sharpest knife in the drawer.

Back to the Revolution, we did beat the crap out the British army at
Saratoga, thanks in large part to Benedict Arnold, who was probably made
more susceptible to treason after the pompous twit Horation Gates, in
nominal command, stole the credit from him.  You might also look at the
history of Nathanael Greene who ran British forces ragged chasing after him
in the South, leading to their eventual collapse at Yorktown (with
assistance of the French Navy, it is true, preventing their running away to
sea).  Greene, along with Henry Knox, was emblematic of the best American
revolutionary generals  -  largely self-educated, and never rich enough to
have purchased anytning more than a lieutenancy in the Royal Army had they
been so inclined, and certainly disqualified from even that on grounds of
not being stupid enough.

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Steve

Klaus D. Mikkelsen - 08 Sep 2009 19:02 GMT
> > A bunch of pissed off colonials supported by German mercenaries, the French
>
> Uh, I do believe the Crown brought Hessian mercenaries hired from one of

Oh, I love this group. A thread more than 5 or 6 messages deep allways
ends in crap....

Klaus
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David Nebenzahl - 08 Sep 2009 19:37 GMT
On 9/8/2009 11:02 AM Klaus D. Mikkelsen spake thus:

>>> A bunch of pissed off colonials supported by German mercenaries, the French
>>
>> Uh, I do believe the Crown brought Hessian mercenaries hired from one of
>
> Oh, I love this group. A thread more than 5 or 6 messages deep allways
> ends in crap....

So you're disputing what Steve wrote about mercenaries?

Hell, *everyone* used mercenaries. Outsourcing goes back to waaaaay
before Hannibal.

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Greg.Procter - 08 Sep 2009 22:24 GMT
>> > A bunch of pissed off colonials supported by German mercenaries, the  
>> French
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Klaus

Good thing you brought your shovel!

Regards,
Greg.P.
Roger T. - 09 Sep 2009 04:07 GMT
+> Back to the Revolution, we did beat the crap out the British army at
> Saratoga, thanks in large part to Benedict Arnold, who was probably made
> more susceptible to treason after the pompous twit Horation Gates, in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> been so inclined, and certainly disqualified from even that on grounds of
> not being stupid enough.
Roger T. - 09 Sep 2009 04:18 GMT
In my original post I did say that the Brit army was well and truly beaten.
Can't deny that.

Part of the reason is, of course, was that in the UK army officers purchased
their rank so that many, many senior officers were somewhat incompetent.  In
many cases brave enough but incompetent.

In Royal Navy on the other hand officers were promoted through ability but
"influence" with an admiral also helped with your promotion.  Once and
office reached the rank of "captain",  the rise to flag rank was automatic
if you lived long enough.  Of course, some notable action would speed up the
promotion through captain to admiral.  This is how Nelson, for example,
rapidly rose through the officer ranks to rear admiral.

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See the GER at: -
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LD - 08 Sep 2009 09:04 GMT
>>> Romans were beginners.
>>
>> They did conquer the English.
>
> We don't talk about that.  :-)

Then, of course, there was the wall ...
Wolf K - 08 Sep 2009 14:30 GMT
>>> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military
>>> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> They did conquer the English.

Nope, the Britons, who adopted/adapted Roman culture, and were in turn
conquered by the English.

HTH
wolf k.
Greg.Procter - 08 Sep 2009 22:26 GMT
>>>> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military  
>>>> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> HTH
> wolf k.

"Engels" being a corruption of "Angles".

Greg.P.
LD - 09 Sep 2009 06:12 GMT
>>>> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military
>>>> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Nope, the Britons, who adopted/adapted Roman culture, and were in turn
> conquered by the English.

Buggers all look alike! :-)
Greg.Procter - 09 Sep 2009 21:58 GMT
>>>>> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military  
>>>>> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Buggers all look alike! :-)

So you expect to be conquered shortly - that would explain US paranoia!
Greg.Procter - 08 Sep 2009 22:22 GMT
>> Interesting: you castigate us (what you term the "USa") for military
>> excesses around the globe, yet you fawn over Rome ...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Romans were beginners.

They held more than 50% of the known world, Britain somewhere about 25-33%.
The Brits even went with the Romans wheel spacing for railway gauge!

Regards,
Greg.P.
Roger T. - 09 Sep 2009 05:40 GMT
> They held more than 50% of the known world, Britain somewhere about
> 25-33%.

Not true.

> The Brits even went with the Romans wheel spacing for railway gauge!

Not proven.  Bit of a myth actually.  That and the rear ends of two horses.

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Cheers.

Roger T.
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Greg.Procter - 09 Sep 2009 21:57 GMT
>> They held more than 50% of the known world, Britain somewhere about
>> 25-33%.
>
> Not true.

I tied together two separate facts in one sentence - which one don't you  
accept?

>> The Brits even went with the Romans wheel spacing for railway gauge!
>
> Not proven.  Bit of a myth actually.  That and the rear ends of two  
> horses.

Of course it's not "proven" - how could one "prove" such a correlation?
The facts are:
- that stone paved Roman roads gained grooves from the passage
of wheels over long periods of time.
- those grooves were of a consistant width, indicating a relatively
standard wheels spacing.
- any other wheel spacing would be impractical on those grooved roads.
- Britain had Roman roads with grooves of equal spacing to those
throughout the Roman sphere of influence.
- British builders generally spaced their wheels to match the traditional
Roman wheel spacing.
- the first relevant railways used everyday carts with standard spaced
wheels matching those of Roman roads with edge rails.
- flanged wheels were spaced to match those carts and rails were spaced
to match the wheels.
You can debunk any of those steps, but the end result is that railway  
gauge,
measured rail center to rail center, reasonably matches the center to
center measurement of the groves in Roman roads. If you can show any real
break in the continuity of the reason for the spacing and in cart/wagon
building tradition I might accept your conclusion.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Alan Larsson - 09 Sep 2009 22:21 GMT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg.Procter" <procter@ihug.co.nz>
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: European freight yard operations vs US Operations

>>> The Brits even went with the Romans wheel spacing for railway gauge!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The facts are:
> Greg.P.

Beleive it or not.. Snopes seems to take your view on that too for some
parts of it..

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

But as too the final point, there is no connection with that being THE
standard and the Romans.  It was chance that THAT particular rail width has
become the standard, a few changes in history and it could have been
different.
Greg.Procter - 09 Sep 2009 22:49 GMT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg.Procter" <procter@ihug.co.nz>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> become the standard, a few changes in history and it could have been
> different.

I'm suggesting it wasn't chance!
The wagons used around the Stephensons' neck of the woods for transporting
coal from the mines to the ports were built to relatively standard  
traditional
designs for use on (exRoman) roads. Plate road railways (edge rail) were  
built
to improve their utilization. That demands a reasonably standard wheel  
spacing.
Ergo, a standard existed at that time. Why?
The same wagons later gained flanged wheels to run on board rails, strap  
iron
on board rails, and then fish rails.
There wasn't any clean break when mine owners said "let's scrap our large
investment, buy all new wagons and put in a railroad to match.
No, they used what they already had and improved it step by step.
The last of those traditional "Chaldron" (sp?) wagons lasted in use until  
the
1960s so I'm guessing they had a long life!

Greg.P.
Roger T. - 09 Sep 2009 22:50 GMT
>>> They held more than 50% of the known world, Britain somewhere about
>>> 25-33%.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I tied together two separate facts in one sentence - which one don't you
> accept?

Both, no matter who much you try to disprove either.

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Cheers.

Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/

Greg.Procter - 09 Sep 2009 23:14 GMT
>>>> They held more than 50% of the known world, Britain somewhere about
>>>> 25-33%.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Both, no matter who much you try to disprove either.

Do you have better numbers???
Wim van Bemmel - 10 Sep 2009 21:22 GMT
Roger T. schreef:
>> They held more than 50% of the known world, Britain somewhere about
>> 25-33%.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Not proven.  Bit of a myth actually.  That and the rear ends of two horses.

True. The spacing of the gaps in the Roman roads to let pass the wheels
of their carts is 143.5 cm. I measured that in Pompei. I took pictures,
but am not able to convert to digital.

--
Groet, salut, Wim.
a_a_a - 10 Sep 2009 22:34 GMT
>>> The Brits even went with the Romans wheel spacing for railway gauge!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> True. The spacing of the gaps in the Roman roads to let pass the wheels
> of their carts is 143.5 cm. I measured that in Pompei.

So why do you assume it was the same anywhere else?

There was an excellent article in Trains a few years ago debunking that
myth, and countless references on the internet. It is amazing that such
nonsense gets perpetuated in this modern world on such flimsy non-evidence.

Typical of Procter to promote it, of course. What does twibil think
about it?
Rick Jones - 10 Sep 2009 23:09 GMT
>>>> The Brits even went with the Romans wheel spacing for railway gauge!
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> myth, and countless references on the internet. It is amazing that such
> nonsense gets perpetuated in this modern world on such flimsy non-evidence.

   I, for one, have doubts that the Roman chariots had any sort of
"standard" spacing for wheels. Standardization of manufacturing really
didn't come about until the mid-1800s. I suspect Roman wheel spacing
varied by a fair amount, especially considering that they had chariots
in 1-man, 2-man and 3-man sizes.

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Greg.Procter - 11 Sep 2009 04:39 GMT
>>>>> The Brits even went with the Romans wheel spacing for railway gauge!
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> varied by a fair amount, especially considering that they had chariots  
> in 1-man, 2-man and 3-man sizes.

Roman stone surfaced roads gained grooves from the passage of wheeled  
vehicles.
The grooves are surprisingly narrow - not sufficiently so to match a  
railway tyre
but in the realm of 150mm. If you've ever tried to drive a vehicle on  
gravel roads
you'll understand how difficult it is in a vehicle with a noticably  
different track
to those that have caused the ruts. If you've ever driven a motorcycle on  
such
roads you'll know how difficult it is to maintain concentration to stay in  
the
grooves. The grooves exist where-ever there are still Roman roads in  
existance.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Twibil - 11 Sep 2009 06:50 GMT
> Typical of Procter to promote it, of course. What does twibil think
> about it?

Pete thinks that if anyone really cared to find out they'd go suss out
the remaining Roman roads (and there are quite a few of them: the
Romans didn't fool arond when it came to solid engineering) and survey
them for tire ruts.

If most of said ruts were pretty much the same distance apart, and if
that distance were close to 4' - 8 1/2", then I'd think the story -and
the ruts- might hold some water. And if not; not.

Too simple?

~Pete
David Nebenzahl - 11 Sep 2009 07:00 GMT
On 9/10/2009 10:50 PM Twibil spake thus:

>> Typical of Procter to promote it, of course. What does twibil think
>> about it?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Too simple?

No, but after reading what the proctologist most recently wrote, it
occurs to me that someone, somewhere, must already have researched this
matter and written about it (you know, those things called "books"? made
out of this stuff called "paper"? Yeah, I know, most young folks don't
know about them anymore).

I would be curious to know if it's true that the ruts in Roman roads
forced a certain amount of standardization of wheel spacing; I'm
skeptical, though, and certainly wouldn't rely on the a.s-examiner as a
reliable source of information.

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Twibil - 11 Sep 2009 07:54 GMT
> No, but after reading what the proctologist most recently wrote, it
> occurs to me that someone, somewhere, must already have researched this
> matter and written about it (you know, those things called "books"? made
> out of this stuff called "paper"? Yeah, I know, most young folks don't
> know about them anymore).

I'm 65. I read two or three books a week. I'm interested in Roman
artifacts, and military artifacts in particular. But I've never seen
any research done on Roman road ruts, so I can have no opinion on the
subject.

> I would be curious to know if it's true that the ruts in Roman roads
> forced a certain amount of standardization of wheel spacing; I'm
> skeptical, though, and certainly wouldn't rely on the a.s-examiner as a
> reliable source of information.

In theory, Roman military roads were a minimum of 8' wide, this being
the width it took for a column of soldiers to march four-abreast
without tripping over each other, but in fact the road width would
vary depending upon when the road was built, what it was primarily
intended for, and the physical limitations of the landscape.

That being the case, I'd be surprised if the majority of Roman wagon-
wheel ruts were the same distance apart. But on the other hand, the
Romans were absolutely *nuts* for promulgating standards of all sorts,
so it isn't beyond the scope of possibility.

~Pete
Wolf K - 11 Sep 2009 16:16 GMT
>> No, but after reading what the proctologist most recently wrote, it
>> occurs to me that someone, somewhere, must already have researched this
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> ~Pete

I checked my books, none of them provide dimensions of early carts and
wagons. Bah!

But it's pretty obvious that they had to vary a couple of inches or so
around a certain "standard" size for several reasons:
a) more or less standard sizes for trade goods, which were sized to be
easily handled, which influenced wagon dimensions to provide for a
profitable load.
b) the strength of wood, which puts practical limits on the dimensions
of wagon parts.
c) the size of horses and oxen. There was no point building wagons much
wider (or narrower) than a pair of draft animals drawing the wagon via a
center shaft. This of courses determined wheel spacing. (BTW, oxen were
the preferred draft animal, not horses. Horses were expensive, not least
because they are surprisingly delicate animals esp. compared to oxen.)
d) the conservatism of crafts and trades. Wagon builders would use the
same jigs and tools for generations, thus guaranteeing very nearly the
same dimensions over long periods of time.

In fact of course wagon wheel spacing did vary some. Just go to a
reasonably good transport museum, and look at the preserved examples.
For that matter, wheel spacing on cars and trucks also varies, though in
the last few decades regulations on truck and trailer dimensions have
produced what amounts to a standard truck gauge.

Here's a reasonable and reasoned summary of what's known and surmised.
The author emphasises that the standard gauge of 4'8-1/2" is an
historical accident. If Stephenson had worked in a different part of the
country (say Wales), his gauge would have been a little wider or a
little narrower. He doesn't stress it, but the wheels of the wagons rain
outside the trams (rails) of the tramways. That makes his calculation of
5' - 2x2" = 4' 8" as Stephenson's original gauge intelligible.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2538/was-standard-railroad-gauge-48-det
ermined-by-roman-chariot-ruts


Here's a scholarly paper on Roman wagons construction, with lots of
citations. The travelling wagon (coach) shown in it has a wheel gauge
close to 5'2":

http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/wagon.html

I noticed that the Romans apparently preferred to suspend the wagon/cart
body between the wheels, not above them.

The standard gauge didn't become standard until the British Parliament
made it so by law (which meant that Brunel's broad gauge railways had to
be narrowed.) In N. America, there were several gauges, too. The
Southern and Northern States had different gauges, which had mixed
effects during the Civil War. IIRC, Congress eventually regulated the
gauge, to prevent and remove the breaks of gauge that impeded traffic,
but can't recall when. Anyhow, the Erie RR had to narrow its 5ft gauge
sometime before 1880. Etc and so on and so forth.

So both the gauge, and the fact that it is the world standard (in the
sense that it's the most used) are historical accidents. Like all such
accidents, we can reconstruct a more or less plausible story to account
for it, based on whatever hard evidence we have.

cheers,
wolf k.
Steve Caple - 11 Sep 2009 16:27 GMT
> If Stephenson had worked in a different part of the country (say Wales),
> his gauge would have been a little wider or a little narrower.

And indeed several other early rail developers' were.

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Steve

Tim Illingworth - 11 Sep 2009 17:55 GMT
>I checked my books, none of them provide dimensions of early carts and
>wagons. Bah!
[snip]
> (BTW, oxen were
>the preferred draft animal, not horses. Horses were expensive, not least
>because they are surprisingly delicate animals esp. compared to oxen.)

IIRC the Romans didn't have the horse collar, which you need so they
won't strangle themselves pulling, but oxen can pull using a simple
yoke.

[more snip]

>I noticed that the Romans apparently preferred to suspend the wagon/cart
>body between the wheels, not above them.

You can use bigger wheels that way, which are more confortable when
you have little or no suspension.

Tim
Twibil - 11 Sep 2009 19:32 GMT
(SNIP)

Thanx for the info, Wolf.  The URL on Roman wagons/carts was
particularly interesting.

~Pete
Rick Jones - 12 Sep 2009 03:37 GMT
> The standard gauge didn't become standard until the British Parliament
> made it so by law (which meant that Brunel's broad gauge railways had to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> but can't recall when. Anyhow, the Erie RR had to narrow its 5ft gauge
> sometime before 1880. Etc and so on and so forth.

   I seem to recall that the standardization of 4' 8.5" came about when
the Federal government designated that as the gauge to be used in
building the Transcontinental Railroad. Anybody that wanted to connect
their tracks to the TransCon had to adopt the same gauge.

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Steve Caple - 12 Sep 2009 07:28 GMT
>     I seem to recall that the standardization of 4' 8.5" came about when
> the Federal government designated that as the gauge to be used in
> building the Transcontinental Railroad.

It could have been different  -  Lincoln initially wanted 5 foot gauge, but
"standard" gauge was already predominating before the Transcontinental
Railroad act.

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Greg.Procter - 14 Sep 2009 00:14 GMT
>>  The standard gauge didn't become standard until the British Parliament  
>> made it so by law (which meant that Brunel's broad gauge railways had  
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> building the Transcontinental Railroad. Anybody that wanted to connect  
> their tracks to the TransCon had to adopt the same gauge.

What has the US Trans-Continental standard gauge got to do with  
standardizing the gauge internationally?
The US Government accepted Stephenson's standard gauge because the  
relevant US railways had accepted it.
LD - 12 Sep 2009 00:58 GMT
> On 9/10/2009 10:50 PM Twibil spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> skeptical, though, and certainly wouldn't rely on the a.s-examiner as a
> reliable source of information.

This is interesting (the 'wagons' are ox carts):

2) What about those road ruts? Many human guides and guidebooks will tell
you that they were worn into the stones by Roman war chariots. There has
also been a long-standing urban legend supposedly linking the standard gauge
of railroad tracks to Roman road ruts and the width of the backsides of
Roman war-chariot horse teams. More than 2000 Internet sites carry the
legend, but it's all bunkum, as both the archeological and railroad
communities know. The professionals also know that, while wear may have
deepened and broadened some ruts slightly, they were invariably carved into
the roads intentionally and by hand to keep traffic going the way it was
planned to go. Ruts were carved into narrow sections or through gates like
those in the Forum Transitorium or between the famous stepping stones in
Pompeii to prevent side-slipping and to keep the wagons "on track". In tight
corners, for example at the corner of the Temple of Julius Caesar, carved
ruts were curved to nudge the front wheels of four-wheeled carts around:
articulated front axles wouldn't be invented until several hundred years
after the fall of the Empire. (The lack of articulated front axles was also
the real reason that Roman surveyors aimed for strictly straight roads.)
Roman roads in the countryside were "high crowned" for drainage, much higher
in the middle than at the curbed edges, and ruts were carved into them to
keep heavy wagons from sliding toward the edges and tearing up the curb
stones when passing in opposite directions. The distance between ruts was
essentially irrelevant since the drover would only have to find a rut with
wheels on one side to keep his wagon on track. Roman Road Ruts info is
contained in
http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Adam_Pawluk/Contruc
tion_and_Makeup_of_.htm
.
The urban legend is debunked at http://www.railway.org/railroadgauge.htm.
Greg.Procter - 14 Sep 2009 00:20 GMT
>> On 9/10/2009 10:50 PM Twibil spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Adam_Pawluk/Contruc
tion_and_Makeup_of_.htm
.  
> The urban legend is debunked at http://www.railway.org/railroadgauge.htm.

A cart or wagon with non-standard wheel spacing would be kept off-center
passing through gateways etc. Given a wider than normal wheel spacing and a
narrow gateway a collision between vehicle and structure would be  
inevitable.
(Most gateways were narrow)
A driver choosing the wrong one of two ruts would have his vehicle thrown
down the cliff of a narrow ledge road. Backing up any distance would be  
impractical
so you're presenting a purpose made road block.
Greg.Procter - 16 Sep 2009 04:53 GMT
>> On 9/10/2009 10:50 PM Twibil spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Adam_Pawluk/Contruc
tion_and_Makeup_of_.htm
.  
> The urban legend is debunked at http://www.railway.org/railroadgauge.htm.

The gauge is NOT 1435mm because the Roman wheels were not flanged and
these days gauge is normally measured between the inside edges of the  
rails.
Obviously one cannot measure ruts in that manner. In some countries in
Europe (where railways first appeared) the "gauge" was measured from rail
head center to rail head center.
(eg France - big place across La Manche from England)
The carts Stephenson originally worked with had wheel spacings for which
he laid/had laid edge rails. When these were converted to flanged wheels
and fish belly rails the practical gauge turned out as 4'8 1/2" or 1435mm
between inside rail edges. Even the thickest person can't imagine that
Stephenson chose 4'8 1/2" as the gauge because it looked pretty or because
he had a parrot with that wingspan???

Lionel based his "Standard Gauge" on existing European toy train tracks but
failed to realize that the quoted dimension was rail-center to rail-center,
hence the extra 1/8". (Ma used 1/8" head diameter rail on all of it's  
gauges
in those days)

Regards,
Greg.P.
a_a_a - 16 Sep 2009 13:51 GMT
>  Even the thickest person can't imagine that
> Stephenson chose 4'8 1/2" as the gauge because it looked pretty or because
> he had a parrot with that wingspan???

Well Greg, only you would know what the thickest person can imagine. We
can't read your mind. So if you say that you can't imagine that, so be
it. We believe you.
Greg.Procter - 20 Sep 2009 02:52 GMT
>>  Even the thickest person can't imagine that
>> Stephenson chose 4'8 1/2" as the gauge because it looked pretty or  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> can't read your mind. So if you say that you can't imagine that, so be  
> it. We believe you.

Hmmm, so you think he had a parrot ...!

Regards,
Greg.P.
Twibil - 20 Sep 2009 07:04 GMT
> > Well Greg, only you would know what the thickest person can imagine. We  
> > can't read your mind. So if you say that you can't imagine that, so be  
> > it. We believe you.
>
> Hmmm, so you think he had a parrot ...!

No, he didn't say that. You did.

If you watch carefully, you'll see your finger move as you type these
things...
Greg.Procter - 21 Sep 2009 05:25 GMT
>> > Well Greg, only you would know what the thickest person can imagine.  
>> We  
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> If you watch carefully, you'll see your finger move as you type these
> things...

Sure, I presented him with two options - he denied _one_ of them.
One of the rules of argument is that if you disagree with something
then you say what and _why_ you disagree.
"Is", "Isn't" ... is not a learned discussion. (perhaps in your case ...)

If you don't deny the second of two possibilities put to you then a
reasonable assumption is that you accept that point.

"It's been refuted" is not a proper argument - you may well side
one way or the other and raise your flag to so indicate. I'm not
siding with the Internet story about two horses arses causing
a space shuttle booster to be a certain size, I'm repeating something
I figured out about 40 years ago.

Regards,
Greg.P.
gabitzu - 13 Sep 2009 17:50 GMT
Photo Gallery: Romania's last forestry line

http://setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2009/09/
10/feature-03

LD - 08 Sep 2009 04:33 GMT
>> On 9/6/2009 9:34 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Procter to Proctor is surely neither here nor there.
> BTW it's of Latin origin - you know, Rome, the greatest miltary ever.

Until Mussolini ...
Greg.Procter - 08 Sep 2009 22:29 GMT
>>> On 9/6/2009 9:34 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Until Mussolini ...

The man who got Italian railways to run on time and reliable passenger
trains throughout the country! You yanks could do with a man like him!

Regards,
Greg.P.
David Nebenzahl - 08 Sep 2009 23:43 GMT
On 9/8/2009 2:29 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:

>>> BTW it's of Latin origin - you know, Rome, the greatest miltary ever.
>>
>> Until Mussolini ...
>
> The man who got Italian railways to run on time and reliable passenger
> trains throughout the country! You yanks could do with a man like him!

That "Mussolini made the trains run on time" business is a myth that's
been thoroughly debunked:

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

LD - 09 Sep 2009 06:22 GMT
>>>> On 9/6/2009 9:34 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> The man who got Italian railways to run on time and reliable passenger
> trains throughout the country! You yanks could do with a man like him!

And had to use mustard gas and phosgene on the Ethiopians who never
surrendered. NTM cost Rommel North Afrika.
Greg.Procter - 09 Sep 2009 22:00 GMT
>>>>> On 9/6/2009 9:34 PM Greg.Procter spake thus:
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> And had to use mustard gas and phosgene on the Ethiopians who never  
> surrendered. NTM cost Rommel North Afrika.

Ok, so you've had a President like Mussolini - Italy wasn't a democracy.
Greg.Procter - 04 Sep 2009 04:33 GMT
> Sorry guy but the whole thread indicated different than that.  While I  
> won't
> disagree that there are some trains that did have air brakes in Europe,  
> most
> of the trains didn't as exposed by other comments in the thread.
> Sounds basicly more  like you're just a nitwit.

The German railways (seven State railways) agreed in 1908 to fit all
goods wagons with air brakes. The same standard was accepted by all
European Interchange Treaty members circa 1910.
From then on, all new wagons were built were either fitted with full
air brakes or through piped for airbrake operation.
Existing wagons were modified at the time of major overhaul or
withdrawn from the pooling system.
Of course there was a war from 1914, depression from 1918 (which resulted
in major down-sizing of rolling stock rosters until c1930), the US
depression from 1928 (which further affected Europe) and another WW
in 1939. In German at least, this meant that the last non-air braked
or through fitted wasn't withdrawn until about 1953-54.
By 1932, which is the year I happen to model German Railways, unbraked
and unfitted wagons were becoming quite rare.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Wolf K - 02 Sep 2009 22:29 GMT
[...]
> Actually I do think, a fully automatic coupler might simply not work
> well - imagine some attachment to the normal coupler that connects the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would be sufficient to delay closing the valves after separation for a
> second or two? Again, very gray ;-)

Existing air brakes systems are fail safe:

http://www.railway-technical.com/air-brakes.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_air_brake

HTH
wolf k.
Bernhard Agthe - 03 Sep 2009 10:20 GMT
Hi,

(fully automatic couplers)
> Existing air brakes systems are fail safe:
...

Yeah, I know, but I do see one problem with fully automatic couplers -
as explained, they may not "open" the brake line in case of unwanted
train separation at speed or they would "open" the brake line in case of
(controlled) hump yard shunting...

So, two different ways of uncoupling have to be implemented:

(1) "controlled" uncoupling with the valves closed before uncoupling the
brake lines and

(2) "unwanted" uncoupling with the valves staying open long enough to
put the train into emergency braking after uncoupling the brake lines.

But I'm sure the designers of the system did thing about this ;-)

Ciao..
David Nebenzahl - 03 Sep 2009 18:12 GMT
On 9/3/2009 2:20 AM Bernhard Agthe spake thus:

> (fully automatic couplers)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> train separation at speed or they would "open" the brake line in case of
> (controlled) hump yard shunting...

In the case of a "break-in-two" at speed, the brake lines certainly
would open, albeit destructively: the hoses would simply be ripped from
the trainline.

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Greg.Procter - 03 Sep 2009 22:32 GMT
> On 9/3/2009 2:20 AM Bernhard Agthe spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> would open, albeit destructively: the hoses would simply be ripped from  
> the trainline.

The European center coupler had the airlines and several dozen electrical
connections mounted on the "glad-hand" so that they connected  
automatically.
Presumably uncoupling disconnected them automatically?
With the precision engineering to eliminate almost all the free slack and
all those automatic connections, it was an expensive coupler and that's not
counting the cost of wagon conversion.
Bob May - 03 Sep 2009 23:06 GMT
Knowing about how hump yard operations are done would help!
Humpping a car is done with the car's braking system empty or closed off.
If they were to have pressure in the brake line for the hump car cut, the
cut would stop each time a car was disconnected and that would be one big
mess!  The braking system on each car is isolated or otherwise disabled
while the hump operation is being done with the strong tendency of the
system being emptied of air.  Otherwise, when it comes to moving the cut
after connecting the brake lines and opening them prepatory to charging the
system, the cars that had air in them would be locked solid to the track
until the pressure in the train line got high enough.

--
Bob May

rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
Greg.Procter - 02 Sep 2009 23:12 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> extra wagons approached - with no way to get out quickly... This may be  
> forbidden, but I'd rather see center couplers than such a procedure!

YYes, that is a scary proceedure!

> So, in this case I do appreciate any country with center couplers  
> installed throughout the system! No matter whether the brake lines need  
> manual coupling...

The trade-off is rougher riding and more damage to freight.
A worker or two written off every year against a high number of damage  
claims?
;-(

> Apart from that, especially freight trains are quite often not coupled  
> as closely with the screw-couplers as they should be, nor are passenger  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> does it right while stopping the train, they have the train already  
> compressed when starting.

Any time there's a spring there's compression available, but a properly
tightened Euro train doesn't have the 10cm slack between each wagon of
the historic British train nor even the 1/4" to 1/2" slack of the US cars.
Loose slack is different to sprung slack as far as damage to contents is
concerned. The unloved Euro automatic center coupler was still going to
have circa 1mm slack and increased damage claims were a considerable  
concern.

> But most freight trains I do see are quite short (five locos with 12  
> wagons!) or mostly empty (10 container on ~20 wagons), so this ain't  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> European systems have derailments, trains "loosing" wagons, whatever...  
> Neither system uses a fully automatic coupler...

I used "black and white" phraseology as adding all the greys increases
the text by a factor of 10 or so ;-)

> Actually I do think, a fully automatic coupler might simply not work  
> well - imagine some attachment to the normal coupler that connects the  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would be sufficient to delay closing the valves after separation for a  
> second or two? Again, very gray ;-)

Not sure whether the Euro center coupler addressed that or not. It was to
be automatic in connecting all functions. Broken brake lines should have
been simple enough to detect - there's two great big couplers connected
or not!
Looks to me as though the whole scheme got too expensive to complete, so
they failed to start.

> This - in a much smaller scale - is a point on a model railroad - badly  
> aligned couplers and train separation... To my shame I must admit I do  
> have a few such cars...
>
> Ciao...
Bernhard Agthe - 03 Sep 2009 10:15 GMT
Hi,

(center couplers vs. buffer-and-screw)
> The trade-off is rougher riding and more damage to freight.

Not necessarily...

> Any time there's a spring there's compression available, but a properly
> tightened Euro train doesn't have the 10cm slack between each wagon of
> the historic British train nor even the 1/4" to 1/2" slack of the US cars.

Well, in a badly tightened train I'd say up to 1/2" of loose slack and
some more slack at the point where the buffers just start to compress
until they reach the "norm" compression, so about 1" would be what I
often see a freight train's rear wagons "bounce" back after stopping,
accumulated to more than 1ft. in a normal (10-15 car) train...
Especially fancy to watch when it's tank cars that are about half full...

> Loose slack is different to sprung slack as far as damage to contents is
> concerned. The unloved Euro automatic center coupler was still going to
> have circa 1mm slack and increased damage claims were a considerable
> concern.

Well, I'd consider 1mm of slack to be less than what I regularly see (or
think I see).

Apart from that, you can build a center coupler with some buffering
properties (spring), and this is being done with Scharfenberg couplers.
So basically you could have little "free" slack (a few mm) and some
sprung slack (which would negate most of the free slack). But this is
more expensive than...

> I used "black and white" phraseology as adding all the greys increases
> the text by a factor of 10 or so ;-)

Sure ;-)

(automated brake line coupling)
> Not sure whether the Euro center coupler addressed that or not. It was to
> be automatic in connecting all functions. Broken brake lines should have
> been simple enough to detect - there's two great big couplers connected
> or not!

Yeah, but my argument was along the line of a few wagons separating from
the end of a train at speed - the automated valves need to stay open for
long enough to put the whole train (both parts) into emergency braking -
as would happen when a train separates nowadays)... But if the brake
valves shut upon the separation, both parts of the train would continue
to "run" at speed which is not good ;-)

> Looks to me as though the whole scheme got too expensive to complete, so
> they failed to start.

That was about the point - it would have been too expensive to change
millions of couplers...

So, I have all winter to either change my model railroad's couplers
(N-Scale Rapido to Kadee-style) or to repair my broken Rapido couplers ;-)

Ciao...
Greg.Procter - 03 Sep 2009 22:26 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> valves shut upon the separation, both parts of the train would continue  
> to "run" at speed which is not good ;-)

One can make "hooking up" automatic but accidental uncoupling (or  
deliberate
uncoupling) manual.
We have "pre-uncoupling" available in HO scale!

>> Looks to me as though the whole scheme got too expensive to complete, so
>> they failed to start.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (N-Scale Rapido to Kadee-style) or to repair my broken Rapido couplers  
> ;-)

You could invent something better!
I use Rapido coupler (heads) on my HO British rolling stock. The slack
is about right to represent the slack of historic British goods trains. ;-)
I tried HO Kadees but they required nasty alterations to the wagons,
and the Rapidos will couple to HO NEM couplers if I ever want to do that.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Tim Illingworth - 29 Aug 2009 16:56 GMT
>I asked a question a while back that probably was too narrow to get a
>detailed answer. Basically the US and European coupler systems are
>different. This has to lead to a difference in how yard operations, in
>assembling a freight train are performed.
[snip]
> Where can I get details of this.
>
>                                                Val Kraut

For UK operations up to 1970 or so, the reference is probably "Freight
Train Operation for the Railway Modeller" by Bob Essery

http://www.amazon.com/Freight-Train-Operation-Railway-Modeller/dp/0711031428/ref
=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I61RZC84J9Q0K&colid=1SJHE4JTH47D1


Tim
 
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