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Model Forum / General / Railroads / April 2010battery operated locomotive
Check this article out at Popular science http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-10/worlds-first-all-electric-loco motive-has-over-1000-batteries-can-run-24-hours-single-charge  SignatureFrank Rosenbaum Please note the new email address: farosenbaum@optimum.net Please Support the following train shows: Kalamazoo Model Railroad Historical Society, MI.: www.kmrhs.org Gratiot Valley Railroad Club, MI: www.gvrr.org On 4/13/2010 12:31 PM Frank A. Rosenbaum spake thus: > Check this article out at Popular science > > http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-10/worlds-first-all-electric-loco motive-has-over-1000-batteries-can-run-24-hours-single-charge Interesting. The comments below the article are worth reading. One thing's for sure: this thing is only "green" in the sense of greenwashing, at least with the current state of electric generation back East. Where does the electricity to charge those batteries come from? If you believe the makers of those despicable Exxon-Mobil and Chevron TV ads, you'd think it was generated from clean, green pixie dust. Now if only that could be scaled down, say, 1:87. Add a radio link and you could have a miles-long layout needing no external power ... SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) Check this article out at Popular science http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-10/worlds-first-all-electric-loco motive-has-over-1000-batteries-can-run-24-hours-single-charge Signature" ...there's no downside to shoving the old coal-guzzling engines to the side (along with their their significant greenhouse gas emissions). Errr, NS still using coal fired locos??? What about the problem of disposing/recylcing the batteries when they wear out? As David pointed out, all this does is relocate the source of the power production from locomotive to big power plant, which every greenie wants to see shut down. Oh, and most plants run on .... wait for it ..... coal. Val > As David pointed out, all this does is relocate the source of the power > production from locomotive to big power plant, which every greenie wants to > see shut down. Excuse me? I've known a lot of "greenies" for well over 40 years now, but have yet to meet one who wants the "big power plants shut down". (Doesn't mean that there aren't any, mind you, but it *does* mean that idealistic fruitcakes such as that are pretty damn thin on the ground.) I *have* met a lot of people who've become aware that we can generate power a lot more cleanly than we're doing right now, and that the main thing standing in the way of that cleaner power in the US is the power companies like PG&E or Con Ed, who see smaller profit margins looming on the horizon and want to put that day off for just as long as possible. Sane people have all pretty much come to the conclusion that we're going to be needing every single type of power-generating technology we can build or invent if we want to maintain a high-tech civilization in the future, and that includes wind, solar, hydro-electric, tidal, gas and coal-burning plants, and yes; nukes. This concept that "greenie" refers only to people who'd prefer to live in caves is an invention of the power companies who'd like to discredit anyone who wants them to clean up their act, and has little to do with the reality of a population that's largely wised up to the fact that we're in the process of poisoning the very environment we all rely on for every breath we take, and would like to see power generated with the least possible impact. >Check this article out at Popular science > >http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-10/worlds-first-all-electric-loco motive-has-over-1000-batteries-can-run-24-hours-single-charge World's first all-electric locomotive? I'm sure that would come as news to Robert Davidson (Aberdeen,1837, powered by galvanic cells), Werner von Siemens (Berlin, 1879) and Magnus Volk (Brighton, 1883). > Check this article out at Popular science > > http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-10/worlds-first-all-electric-loco motive-has-over-1000-batteries-can-run-24-hours-single-charge Charged on 110 or 220? >> Check this article out at Popular science >> >> http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-10/worlds-first-all-electric-loco motive-has-over-1000-batteries-can-run-24-hours-single-charge > > Charged on 110 or 220? As you know, the article didn't say. Since they were automotive batteries, I wonder if it isn't 120. But charging a thousand batteries in two hours can't be too good for the batteries. SignatureFrank Rosenbaum Please note the new email address: farosenbaum@optimum.net Please Support the following train shows: Kalamazoo Model Railroad Historical Society, MI.: www.kmrhs.org Gratiot Valley Railroad Club, MI: www.gvrr.org On 4/14/2010 6:13 AM Frank A. Rosenbaum spake thus: >>> Check this article out at Popular science >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wonder if it isn't 120. But charging a thousand batteries in two hours can't > be too good for the batteries. Which of course is because charging *one* battery in 2 hours can't be good for it. But I'm assuming they're using some kind of "deep cycle" batteries that can stand that kind of abuse better than conventional units. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > On 4/14/2010 6:13 AM Frank A. Rosenbaum spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > for it. But I'm assuming they're using some kind of "deep cycle" batteries > that can stand that kind of abuse better than conventional units. That would work. I hadn't thought of that. Also, someone mentioned pollution at the power source. Yes, I agree if it is a coal or oil burning plant, but would you rather have 24 hours of a diesel loco idling, plus the 'local' pollution? The power for the batloc is just a small part of the use of the power plant that is going to run whether or not the loco needs it. Frank Rosenbaum Please note the new email address: farosenbaum@optimum.net Please Support the following train shows: Kalamazoo Model Railroad Historical Society, MI.: www.kmrhs.org Gratiot Valley Railroad Club, MI: www.gvrr.org >> On 4/14/2010 6:13 AM Frank A. Rosenbaum spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > batloc is just a small part of the use of the power plant that is going > to run whether or not the loco needs it. The average major power plant is far more efficient than any railway Diesel locomotive by as much as 200-300% Delivering electricity to electric locomotives (or a battery charging station) can waste up to 20% of the energy. (200%x80% = 160% advantage) Using batteries will waste another 20% (160%x80% = 128%) so the battery Electric is still ahead 28% to 92% on new Diesel Electric locos in service. Greg.P. Hi, > The average major power plant is far more efficient than any railway > Diesel locomotive by as much as 200-300% ... What really turns the point is the usage pattern of the loco. As someone mentioned, this loco is not "interesting" as a mainline loco. As far as I see it, it is mostly intended for switching and local service? And for a switcher loco, it might be successful - they can simply switch it off when not in use, in contrast to a diesel loco (which needs the engine kept warm). They have lots of starting and stopping, so regenerative braking is really sensible (recharge the batteries ;-) As a road loco this would be a terrible failure I guess, but as a switcher this one might be really successful. And in that case the advantage over a diesel (idling for half of the day) might be worth the trouble with the batteries (I dislike batteries). Ciao... >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >advantage over a diesel (idling for half of the day) might be worth the >trouble with the batteries (I dislike batteries). Battery switchers are nothing new. This is at the National Railway Museum in York http://news.webshots.com/photo/2822233880053353449dIuBzs Battery operated railcar sets have also been used. http://www.deeside-railway.co.uk/pages/archive_detail.php?image=3 These have usually been successful but their sphere of use is restricted. The Battery Electric Multiple Unit was used on a particlular line in Scotland which had charging facilities, and the switcher at a yard in Stafford. It's a bigger problem for road engines though because they would need charging facilities everywhere they went, and charging takes longer than refuelling. >Ciao... > It's a bigger problem for road engines though because they would need > charging facilities everywhere they went, and charging takes longer > than refuelling. This is also the failing of all-electric cars such as the Tesla. Cross country trips are nearly impossible with the need to recharge it approximately every 300 miles. A recharge takes hours, while refilling a gas tank takes ten minutes. Someday perhaps we'll get around this problem, but until then don't drive one very far from home. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me "Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people." -Oscar Wilde >> It's a bigger problem for road engines though because they would need >> charging facilities everywhere they went, and charging takes longer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >gas tank takes ten minutes. Someday perhaps we'll get around this >problem, but until then don't drive one very far from home. Around Silly Cone Valley many of the technology stores like Fry's electronics have reserved parking slots for electric vehicles, with chargers to "top up" while the customer is in the store. I don't remember seeing any for commuters though. For local use you can charge them overnight, but I ain't going to buy a second vehicle just for shopping and commuting. When I lived in England electric delivery vehicles were common. But again, these never stray very far from a central charging facility. I've also seen battery operated local buses on both sides of the Atlantic. >>> It's a bigger problem for road engines though because they would need >>> charging facilities everywhere they went, and charging takes longer [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I've also seen battery operated local buses on both sides of the > Atlantic. And I recently saw a semi-trailer truck painted for Coca-Cola (IIRC) making a delivery to a convenience store that had a sign stating that it was all-electric. I was past it fairly quick, but I believe I saw the Kenworth logo on the front of the grill. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday. >>>> It's a bigger problem for road engines though because they would need >>>> charging facilities everywhere they went, and charging takes longer [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > was all-electric. I was past it fairly quick, but I believe I saw the > Kenworth logo on the front of the grill. I don't find anything on an all electric Kenworth, but they do have a hybrid <www.kenworth.com/newspics/T270hybrid.pdf>. Presumably this would be mostly electric for short range applcations. Dan Mitchell ============ --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net --- >> And I recently saw a semi-trailer truck painted for Coca-Cola (IIRC) >> making a delivery to a convenience store that had a sign stating that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hybrid <www.kenworth.com/newspics/T270hybrid.pdf>. Presumably this would > be mostly electric for short range applcations. Perhaps it was a hybrid. I only had a second to glance at it as I drove past the store where it was making a delivery. SignatureRick Jones Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me "The State insists that, by thus quarantining the general reading public against books not too rugged for grown men and women in order to shield juvenile innocence, it is exercising its power to promote the general welfare. Surely, this is to burn the house to roast the pig. [....] We have before us legislation not reasonably restricted to the evil with which it is said to deal. The incidence of this enactment is to reduce the adult population of Michigan to reading only what is fit for children. It thereby arbitrarily curtails one of those liberties of the individual, now enshrined in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, that history has attested as the indispensable conditions for the maintenance and progress of a free society." -Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, Butler v. Michigan, 1957 >>> On 4/14/2010 6:13 AM Frank A. Rosenbaum spake thus: >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Using batteries will waste another 20% (160%x80% = 128%) so the battery >Electric is still ahead 28% to 92% on new Diesel Electric locos in service. The big problem is the infrastructure needed. In their early days diesels never went out of range of fueling facilities. While battery chargers are pretty old hat, you need them and their associated power supply everywhere the locomotive would be used, which limits its sphere of operation. >Greg.P. >>>> On 4/14/2010 6:13 AM Frank A. Rosenbaum spake thus: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > supply everywhere the locomotive would be used, which limits its > sphere of operation. All the data I have on ordinary lead-acid batteries shows a charging time in the order of 10 hours, normal maximum discharge (operation) rate 2 hours, extreme discharging 1 hour. Deepcycle lead acid batteries can be charged at about twice that rate. The Prussian Railways had a considerable fleet of battery railcars (passenger) for use on branchlines and short mainline runs. These were in service from circa 1900 into the 1950s/60s and some were replaced by the DB inn the early 1960s. Their obvious use is on short runs with longer breaks between runs. The DRG/BB also had a few battery electric shunting locos. They also had six (I think) Co'Co' battery/overhead electric heavy shunters. The intent of the batteries there was to enable the locos to access non-electrified sidings. Obviously when a loco is used only for yard work or between two specific stations it is never going to be far from a charging station. Greg.P. >The Prussian Railways had a considerable fleet of battery railcars >(passenger) for use on branchlines and short mainline runs. These [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of the batteries there was to enable the locos to access non-electrified >sidings. The London Underground uses 3rd rail / battery locomotives for maintenance of way trains. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_battery-electric_locomotives >Obviously when a loco is used only for yard work or between two specific >stations it is never going to be far from a charging station. > >Greg.P. |
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