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Model Forum / General / Railroads / July 2010Making your own decals...
I know there was some discussion of this in these ng's awhile back, but I would like to know which printers worked best and which decal film you had your best luck with. Thanks.... Bob On 7/15/2010 1:14 PM Barb/Bob Alexander spake thus: > I know there was some discussion of this in these ng's awhile back, but I > would like to know which printers worked best and which decal film you had > your best luck with. Thanks.... I have no personal experience with making my own decals. but I can tell you definitively that the best printer for this job would have to be the old Alps printers. Why? Because, among other things, they could print white (and silver) as well as colors, so you could make decals that weren't possible with non-white-printing printers (unless you could get ahold of white decal stock). These printers used to be available on eBay; anyone know if they still are (plus supplies for them)?  SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > I have no personal experience with making my own decals. but I can tell > you definitively that the best printer for this job would have to be the > old Alps printers. Why? Because, among other things, they could print > white (and silver) as well as colors ... While Alps (or a few of its kin) are the only way to print white decals, using an Alps to print colors other than those available is a labor intensive process of multiple overlays. Why? Because dithering on a dry ink printer works poorly. There's no spreading of the inks and thus no overlap. Inkjets and lasers deposit wet inks that do merge, making the individual dots invisible or at least a lot less visible. I have an Alps and an inkjet and have come to the conclusion that the Alps will be used only for white decals. And if I could find a steady source of white dry transfer lettering in a variety of fonts, I might get rid of the Alps altogether. Just my opinion - YMMV. SignatureIntelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw On 7/16/2010 2:00 PM Larry Blanchard spake thus: >> I have no personal experience with making my own decals. but I can tell >> you definitively that the best printer for this job would have to be the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Just my opinion - YMMV. Well, your opinion is worth more than mine in this case. Thanks for your insights here. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) [...] > I have an Alps and an inkjet and have come to the conclusion that the > Alps will be used only for white decals. And if I could find a steady > source of white dry transfer lettering in a variety of fonts, I might get > rid of the Alps altogether. > > Just my opinion - YMMV. CDS are good, but the owner is retiring. See: http://www.canadasouthern.com/tmr/CDS-G.htm wolf k. > CDS are good, but the owner is retiring. See: > > http://www.canadasouthern.com/tmr/CDS-G.htm Retired, over a year ago. Business defunct. Several people were interested in taking over the business but his demands ware too much. Get 'em while you can. SignatureRoger Traviss Photos of the late GER: - http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:- http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/ >> I have no personal experience with making my own decals. but I can tell >> you definitively that the best printer for this job would have to be the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Just my opinion - YMMV. It sounds like there is an opportunity for an after-market entrepeneur to supply white cartridges for some of the popular printers. He only needs to do it for one model, and the original manufacturer would sell a heck of them to railroad and other modellers. > It sounds like there is an opportunity for an after-market entrepeneur > to supply white cartridges for some of the popular printers. > > He only needs to do it for one model, and the original manufacturer > would sell a heck of them to railroad and other modellers. It's been suggested many times. So far no takers. SignatureIntelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw On 7/18/2010 11:18 AM Larry Blanchard spake thus: >> It sounds like there is an opportunity for an after-market entrepeneur >> to supply white cartridges for some of the popular printers. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It's been suggested many times. So far no takers. Probably because it wouldn't work, or at least would not work well, with inkjet printers. The Alps printers were not ink jet, but solid-ink (dye sublimation) printers, like the Tektronix ones still made today, that deposit a wax-based ink on the paper. It would be *extremely* difficult to formulate a white inkjet ink that would be thick enough to cover while still not clogging the ink jets. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > On 7/18/2010 11:18 AM Larry Blanchard spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > formulate a white inkjet ink that would be thick enough to cover while > still not clogging the ink jets. And the market is incredibly small. [...]I have an Alps and an inkjet and have come to the conclusion that the >> Alps will be used only for white decals. And if I could find a steady >> source of white dry transfer lettering in a variety of fonts, I might get [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It sounds like there is an opportunity for an after-market entrepreneur > to supply white cartridges for some of the popular printers. Sounds like a good idea until you mull over the technical and economic problems. Whether for inkjets or lasers, printing opaque white is tricky. White pigments opaque enough to be useful are oxides (eg, titanium oxide), AFAIK, the rest are metal salts. Both are abrasive, and the salts are chemically quite reactive. Developing a white ink cartridge is not impossible technically, but would be expensive. IIRC, the Alps printer uses a wax, which simply couldn't be used in an inkjet, but a variation might work in a Xerox laser (which uses a wax-based toner.) > He only needs to do it for one model, and the original manufacturer > would sell a heck of them to railroad and other modellers. How many is a heck of a lot? What would you pay for a white ink cartridge? $15? $25? $50? At $15, about the same as a colour cartridge, and sales of 100,000 per year, the retail gross would $1.5M, the mfr's would be about half that, net would be about 10% of that, or around $75K. Sounds like a lot, but suppose it cost you $500K (a low ball figure IMO) to develop that cartridge: it will take you about 8 years, not counting interest, before to recover your investment. Are there sales for 100,000 or more white ink cartridges? I don't know, but there are certainly nowhere near that many sales to model railroaders. Fact is, the market for opaque white ink isn't large even in the printing trade. cheers, wolf k. On 7/18/2010 12:04 PM Wolf K spake thus: > Whether for inkjets or lasers, printing opaque white is tricky. White > pigments opaque enough to be useful are oxides (eg, titanium oxide), [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > uses a wax, which simply couldn't be used in an inkjet, but a variation > might work in a Xerox laser (which uses a wax-based toner.) Ackshooly, you're a *little* bit confused between laser and dye-sub printing technologies. Close, but not quite. Laser printers (and most current copy machines) use dry toner which is not wax-based, but usually made of some type of fusible plastic particles, typically styrene, mixed with pigments (carbon black for black, other stuff for different colors). The printer or copier deposits the dry toner on the image areas of the copy/print electrostatically (the paper and toner are given opposite electrical charges at high potential, so the toner sticks to the paper), after which a fuser (basically just a hot roller) actually melts the toner onto the paper. This is why you need special decal paper for laser printers, because of the heat. Dye-sub printers use a different method; they use solid ink, in the form of wax bars, which are actually vaporized by the printhead, hence the "sublimation" part (the ink goes directly from solid to vapor form, without turning to liquid in between), whence it is sprayed onto the paper. When it cools back to solid, it adheres to the paper. It's almost like using a crayon and a blowtorch to create an image on paper. These printers are variously called "phase-change" (hence the "Phaser" trade name), dye-sublimation or dye-sub, or "solid ink" printers. I actually have one here, a Tektronix Phaser, which anyone in the area (S.F. Bay Area) can have if they want it. It's *huge* and works, although it needs a little attention (plus replacement ink cartridges). I've used it to make model RR signs, which are much, much better than inkjet since they don't run or smear, plus they're much more resistant to fading. Print resolution is 300 DPI, I think. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > On 7/18/2010 12:04 PM Wolf K spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Laser printers (and most current copy machines) use dry toner which is > not wax-based, Xerox calls their solid toner a wax. Maybe so's not to confuse potential customers with technical details. [...] 'ta for the technical details. ;-) wolf k. > I actually have one here, a Tektronix Phaser, which anyone in the area > (S.F. Bay Area) can have if they want it. It's *huge* and works, although > it needs a little attention (plus replacement ink cartridges). That is a heck of a deal! I think they still run about $1K for the least expensive model. >> I actually have one here, a Tektronix Phaser, which anyone in the area >> (S.F. Bay Area) can have if they want it. It's *huge* and works, >> although it needs a little attention (plus replacement ink cartridges). > > That is a heck of a deal! I think they still run about $1K for the least > expensive model. Actually.... Phaser 8560/n $599 (after $200 rebate) Save with a trade-in rebate > I actually have one here, a Tektronix Phaser, which anyone in the area > (S.F. Bay Area) can have if they want it. It's *huge* and works, > although it needs a little attention (plus replacement ink cartridges). > I've used it to make model RR signs, which are much, much better than > inkjet since they don't run or smear, plus they're much more resistant > to fading. Print resolution is 300 DPI, I think. Awfully nice of you to make that offer, David! Kudos! ~Pete On 7/18/2010 3:47 PM Twibil spake thus: >> I actually have one here, a Tektronix Phaser, which anyone in the area >> (S.F. Bay Area) can have if they want it. It's *huge* and works, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Kudos! Well, it's on Craigslist now (in the free section); someone gave it to me, and it's clear it's in the "I'm probably never going to use it" category, so it's time to pass it on. If someone here wants it, they can have it (must pick it up). SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) See: http://www.letraset.com/craft/default.asp wolf k. >I know there was some discussion of this in these ng's awhile back, but I >would like to know which printers worked best and which decal film you had >your best luck with. Thanks.... > > Bob I would also like to know. The Alps thing was so far back, the odds of getting a workable solution using one - if you can find one - might make it not worth the effort. Also, how about dry transfers? On Jul 15, 1:14 pm, "Barb/Bob Alexander" <balexan...@rtecexpress.net> wrote: > I know there was some discussion of this in these ng's awhile back, but I > would like to know which printers worked best and which decal film you had > your best luck with. Thanks.... > > Bob I've had good luck using an off-the-shelf HP Photosmart C6180 for decal printing. I've yet to find a really good decal paper, but stay away from the stuff sold by Micro-Mark. Bad product. The film is so heavy that the edges of the decal remain obvious unless you do some serious camouflage work, it absolutely refuses to snuggle down into depressions for the same reason, and it also tends to "silver" a lot. ~Pete I've had good luck using an off-the-shelf HP Photosmart C6180 for decal printing. --------------------------- Does it print white? As the vast majority of railroad marks are white, I'd think the ability to print in white is the most important criteria for decal printer. SignatureRoger Traviss Photos of the late GER: - http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:- http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/ On Jul 16, 11:06 am, "Roger Traviss" <roger...@highspeedplus.com> wrote: > Does it print white? No. > As the vast majority of railroad marks are white, I'd think the ability to > print in white is the most important criteria for decal printer. Good luck finding one that's affordable. For things such as railroad names it's probably more practical to pay someone to run you off a few hundred than to buy a printer just for that capability. ~Pete > As the vast majority of railroad marks are white, I'd think the ability to > print in white is the most important criteria for decal printer. Good luck finding one that's affordable. For things such as railroad names it's probably more practical to pay someone to run you off a few hundred than to buy a printer just for that capability. -------------------------------------------- Tend to agree with that, SignatureRoger Traviss Photos of the late GER: - http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:- http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/ On Jul 16, 12:14 pm, "Roger Traviss" <roger...@highspeedplus.com> wrote: > > As the vast majority of railroad marks are white, I'd think the ability to > > print in white is the most important criteria for decal printer. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Tend to agree with that, This guy is good: http://www.solidesign.bizland.com/ He's made both "CRESTLINE" and "SUD PACIFICO De MEXICO" logo decals for me, and I was (and am) pleased with the results. Good quality, easy to work with, and he doesn't waste time getting your order to you. ~Pete > Tend to agree with that, This guy is good: http://www.solidesign.bizland.com/ He's made both "CRESTLINE" and "SUD PACIFICO De MEXICO" logo decals for me, and I was (and am) pleased with the results. Good quality, easy to work with, and he doesn't waste time getting your order to you. ------------------------------------- Thanks, I've bookmarked it for later, when I get to rebuild my GER. SignatureRoger Traviss Photos of the late GER: - http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:- http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/ > I've had good luck using an off-the-shelf HP Photosmart C6180 for > decal printing. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > As the vast majority of railroad marks are white, I'd think the ability to > print in white is the most important criteria for decal printer. No inkjet or laser printer prints white. The Alps printer used a wax that was transferred from a ribbon to the paper. The wax was laid down in stripes. Very expensive for b/w printing, since most of the wax wasn't used, and inadequate registration for photo-quality printing. cheers, wolf k. On 7/16/2010 11:06 AM Roger Traviss spake thus: [Twibil posted:] >> I've had good luck using an off-the-shelf HP Photosmart C6180 for >> decal printing. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > As the vast majority of railroad marks are white, I'd think the ability to > print in white is the most important criteria for decal printer. I've thought about this a bit, and it seems that it might be possible--though a lot of work and a pain in the a.s--to get white in your decals by selective underpainting of the surface to be decaled, in the places that will show up white later. For some simpler decals, like circular emblems with white interiors, this might not be too bad. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) On 7/16/2010 10:54 AM Twibil spake thus: > On Jul 15, 1:14 pm, "Barb/Bob Alexander" <balexan...@rtecexpress.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > decal printing. I've yet to find a really good decal paper, but stay > away from the stuff sold by Micro-Mark. Bad product. So I take it that you use this in an inkjet printer, correct? (I suppose it might work in a color laser printer as well.) If you use inkjet, can you tell us about any potential problems with the ink running or dissolving when the decal is set? (Never have done this myself.) (But now I realize after reading this: you haven't told us what decal paper you use, have you? just the name of the printer?) SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > > I've had good luck using an off-the-shelf HP Photosmart C6180 for > > decal printing. I've yet to find a really good decal paper, but stay > > away from the stuff sold by Micro-Mark. Bad product. > > So I take it that you use this in an inkjet printer, correct? Si! > If you use inkjet, can > you tell us about any potential problems with the ink running or > dissolving when the decal is set? (Never have done this myself.) As per instructions, you wait until the ink from the printer is 100% dry (I wait 24 hours) and then spray the decal paper throughly with either Dullcote or Glosscote, depending on whether you want flat or glossy decals. You then wait *another* 24 hours before cutting them out and using them. Works fine unless you've been too parsimonious with the overcoat, in which case the ink might still try to run. Which is why I shoot *two* cover coats now. ~Pete > On 7/16/2010 10:54 AM Twibil spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So I take it that you use this in an inkjet printer, correct? (I suppose > it might work in a color laser printer as well.) If you use inkjet, can Warning: *laser* printers use heat to fix the toner. Decal 'paper' may not handle the heat, unless it is designed for laser printers. Note inkjet printers use water-based inks and unless the decal paper is designed to to be used with inkjet ink, there could be problems. > you tell us about any potential problems with the ink running or > dissolving when the decal is set? (Never have done this myself.) You need to apply a fixative to seal the *water based* inkjet ink. > (But now I realize after reading this: you haven't told us what decal > paper you use, have you? just the name of the printer?) There are several source of inkjet compatible decal paper. Usually there is a fixative spray you get with the paper. -- > > (But now I realize after reading this: you haven't told us what decal > > paper you use, have you? just the name of the printer?) > > There are several source of inkjet compatible decal paper. Usually > there is a fixative spray you get with the paper. In that case, what about photocopying the image onto the paper? On 7/16/2010 7:35 PM None spake thus: >>> (But now I realize after reading this: you haven't told us what decal >>> paper you use, have you? just the name of the printer?) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In that case, what about photocopying the image onto the paper? Well, if you mean photocopying as in "put the decal paper into a copier and make a copy on it", then that's basically the same as using a laser printer (copiers are toner-based as well), so you'd need to use paper that's made for that process. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > On 7/16/2010 7:35 PM None spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > printer (copiers are toner-based as well), so you'd need to use paper > that's made for that process. Unless it is an inkjet all-in-one, in which case it is just like an inkjet printer... There are basicly two 'printing' techologies in (current) common use: inkjet (water based ink) or laser (backed on dry toner) and the same techologies are used for both photocopiers and printers. All-in-one / multifunction 'printers' just combine multiple subsystems into one unit, but the subsystems are the same when not in combination. (Yes, some older standalone faxes used a continious roll thermal printer system.) -- On 7/17/2010 4:37 AM Robert Heller spake thus: >> On 7/16/2010 7:35 PM None spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > inkjet (water based ink) or laser (backed on dry toner) and the same > techologies are used for both photocopiers and printers. Well, yes, except that if someone uses the term "photocopy", chances are they're referring to a commercial-type copy machine, which are 100% toner-based, not inkjet. (Desktop copiers, or all-in-one fax/printer/copier machines are often inkjet-based, it's true.) I guess the person I responded to will have to tell us exactly what they meant here ... SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > Well, yes, except that if someone uses the term "photocopy", chances are > they're referring to a commercial-type copy machine, which are 100% [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I guess the person I responded to will have to tell us exactly what they > meant here ... Essentially, if you could photocopy it you wouldn't need some out-of- production printer. My Brothers printer photocopys in color. It was just a thought. > > Well, yes, except that if someone uses the term "photocopy", chances are > > they're referring to a commercial-type copy machine, which are 100% [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > production printer. My Brothers printer photocopys in color. It was > just a thought. If it is a home office all-in-one / multifunction, it is an inkjet printer + scanner + faxmodem: printer+scanner == 'photocopier', faxmodem+printer == fax receiver, scanner+faxmodem == fax sender. There is no difference between *printing* (from the computer) and photocopying as far as getting ink on the paper. You'll need decal paper that can be printer with water based ink (inkjet) and you'll need to fix the *dry* ink afterward (eg dulcoat, etc.). > -- >>> (But now I realize after reading this: you haven't told us what decal >>> paper you use, have you? just the name of the printer?) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In that case, what about photocopying the image onto the paper? Same issues as with laser printing. Photocopying uses the same process as a laser printer: the toner is sealed to the paper by heat. The difference between copying and printing is software. That's why "multi-function" laser printers/scanners/copiers are cheap. cheers, wolf k. >I know there was some discussion of this in these ng's awhile back, but I >would like to know which printers worked best and which decal film you had >your best luck with. Thanks.... > > Bob I found this source for decal film, prices seem good. Has anyone tried them? http://www.bare-metal.com/Experts-Choice-Decal-Film.html Bob On Jul 16, 5:15 pm, "Barb/Bob Alexander" <balexan...@rtecexpress.net> wrote: > >would like to know which printers worked best and which decal film you had > >your best luck with. Thanks.... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bob Yes, I have - excellent decal paper! I only use their laser paper since I print using my ancient Alps printer! There is also a lot of misinformation about Alps printers in general. First of all, printing method used for printing decals is NOT DyeSub. It is thermal ink transfer using wax/resin ink (no sublimation takes place - ink is deposited on top of the decal paper). Alps printers (MD-5500) were still being made until the end of May 2010. There are still thousands of users out there (over 3000 Alps users belong to the Alps and alpsdecal Yahoo groups). Ink is still being produced by Alps (for the next 5 years). While coarse halftones are a downfall of Alps color printing there are many ink layering techniques which give solid colors. Overall using Alps is sometimes frustrating and time intensive process, the results are stunning! There is nothing else like Alps in consumer market (read: affordable). Peteski On 7/19/2010 11:55 PM Peter W. spake thus: > There is also a lot of misinformation about Alps printers in general. > First of all, printing method used for printing decals is NOT DyeSub. > It is thermal ink transfer using wax/resin ink (no sublimation takes > place - ink is deposited on top of the decal paper). Not sure that's a misunderstanding: "sublimation" means going directly from solid to vapor phase. The ink is still deposited on top of the printed sheet, same as with laser or inkjet. > Alps printers (MD-5500) were still being made until the end of May > 2010. There are still thousands of users out there (over 3000 Alps > users belong to the Alps and alpsdecal Yahoo groups). Ink is still > being produced by Alps (for the next 5 years). Good to know. I shoulda bought one when they were still plentiful and cheap on eBay. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > On 7/19/2010 11:55 PM Peter W. spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > from solid to vapor phase. The ink is still deposited on top of the > printed sheet, same as with laser or inkjet. Lets split some hairs. Dye Sublimation process vaporises the dye (not ink) which then sublimates (gets absorbed) into the print media. But the Micro Dry thermal transfer printing process heats up ink (not dye). That liquifies the ink and deposits it on top of the print media. The ink actually sits on top of the print media. That ink can even be scratches off with a fingernail. Certain Alps models are capable of both DyeSub and Micro Dry printing (using different ink cartridges and different print media) but there is a big difference between each printing method. Only think in common that both methods use heat for printing. Only Micro Dry thermal transfer printing is usable for decals. That method allows to place multiple layers of inks on to of each other. That is what enables Alps to print white undercoat layer under standard color inks. DyeSyb printing does not allow for that and can only be printed on the special DyeSub media (not on decal paper). Peteski On 7/21/2010 1:09 AM Peter W. spake thus: >> On 7/19/2010 11:55 PM Peter W. spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > standard color inks. DyeSyb printing does not allow for that and can > only be printed on the special DyeSub media (not on decal paper). You may consider it splitting hairs, but you're simply wrong here. No big deal, but you're wrong. Hey, it's not me who calls solid-ink printing "dye sublimation": it's Xerox, who now owns the former Tektronix Phaser series of dye-sub printers: http://www.office.xerox.com/printers/color-printers/phaser-480-x/supl-enus.html There's even a link on this page to their solid-ink FAQ: http://www.office.xerox.com/solid-ink/solid-ink-faq/enus.html Now it's true that there are different forms of dye sublimation, some of which involve "ink" on a ribbon rather than in solid bars like in the Phaser series, but they all work the same way, by vaporizing the "ink" and depositing it on the printing substrate, which, contrary to what you say, need not be a special dye-receptive media: it can be any paper or film, including decal film. (When I printed using my Phaser I used ordinary copy paper.) When it hits the paper or film, it simply condenses back into a solid and binds to the surface of the substrate. The prints from a Phaser are very resistant to scratching; I know, I've tried it. The term "dye sublimation" may not be a good one, as it implies that the agent used to print with is like a liquid dye (like, say, RIT) and not a solid as is actually used, but it's the term we're stuck with for better or worse. (By the way, I just gave away my Phaser 850, so sorry if anyone here wanted it. It needed some work, but the guy who picked it up said they were worth somewhere arond $3K when they were made.) SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) On 7/21/2010 1:09 AM Peter W. spake thus: > Dye Sublimation process vaporises the dye (not ink) which then > sublimates (gets absorbed) into the print media. I didn't catch this before, but here's the source of your confusion: sublimation is not what you say it is. It's the change from solid to gas (or vice versa) without becoming liquid in between. It has nothing to do with absorption. Like they say, you could look it up. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > On 7/21/2010 1:09 AM Peter W. spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) Whatever. You have no clue as to what you're talking about (as far as Alps is concerned). I would give you a useful Wikipedia link but we all know your aversion to that site. :-) I owned several Alps MD printers of many years and I have printed many pages (in both standard Micro Dry and Dye Sub modes) so yes, I *DO* know what I'm talking about. The key in Sublimation is the vaporized dye (again dye, not ink). That dye is absorbed by the print media. But I'm repeating myself. I have also worked with the Xerox Phaser printers and their "DyeSub" ink is a high-gloss waxy layer on top of plain paper. It can be scratched off with a fingernail. Dye Sublimation produces a more permanent printout and you cannot use plain paper. You can't always believe in what sales literature tells you. For example Alps MD-5000 sales literature states that it is a 2400dpi printer but in reality the actual maximum dot pitch is 600dpi. Yes the printer can print partial dots of the size of a 2400dpi printer but still at only 600 dpi pitch. It is all sales pitches. >>On 7/21/2010 1:09 AM Peter W. spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > printer can print partial dots of the size of a 2400dpi printer but > still at only 600 dpi pitch. It is all sales pitches. First off, I don't know exactly how *ALPS* uses the word "sublimation", or the detail of how their printers work. I've never used one, nor read their technical info. However, Dave N. is correct that "sublimation" has nothing to do with absorption. As he states, sublimation is the change from solid to gas without passing through a liquid state in between. Many substances exhibit such behavior under appropriate pressure and temerature ranges. I don't doubt that the dyes (or inks, whatever) used by ALPS are sublimated into a gaseous state, and then migrate to the paper. Once AT the paper, they may be absorbed as you state, but THAT portion of the process has nothing to do with sublimation. It seems the printing industry has hijacked the word and applies it to a printing process that uses sublimation as one PART of that process. It would thus be more correct to use the term "Sublimation-Printing" and not just "Sublimation" where the ALPS printers are involved. Picking nits. :-) Dan Mitchell ============ > However, Dave N. is correct that "sublimation" has nothing to do with > absorption. As he states, sublimation is the change from solid to gas > without passing through a liquid state in between. Many substances > exhibit such behavior under appropriate pressure and temerature ranges. Right. CO2 is a classic example of this process. 'Dry Ice' (frozen CO2) sublimates at ambient temperatures. The classic use of this is in the bubbling cauldron effect common in lots of horror movies -- drop a block of Dry Ice in a pot of water -- the water looks like it is boiling, but the 'steam' flows *down* (CO2 is heavier than air, unlike hot steam). SignatureRobert Heller -- 978-544-6933 Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows heller@deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/ On 7/22/2010 7:34 AM Robert Heller spake thus: >> However, Dave N. is correct that "sublimation" has nothing to do with >> absorption. As he states, sublimation is the change from solid to gas [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > boiling, but the 'steam' flows *down* (CO2 is heavier than air, unlike > hot steam). There's an even more common example of sublimation right in your fridge: it's why your ice cubes slowly shrink and disappear without ever becoming wet. The solid ice slowly turns directly into water vapor without going through the liquid phase. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) On 7/22/2010 2:26 AM Peter W. spake thus: >> On 7/21/2010 1:09 AM Peter W. spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > permanent printout and you cannot use plain paper. You can't always > believe in what sales literature tells you. Well, of course not. I meant no disrespect of your experience with various printing technologies. It is unfortunate that manufacturers use terminology so loosely and confusingly. One thing is for sure, that all these printers we're discussing here use sublimation to get the ink (I'll use that term to describe "the stuff that makes the image on the printing substrate") onto the paper or film. Whether it's an Alps or a Phaser, the solid stuff is vaporized and deposited on the substrate. The "dye" part of dye sublimation is problematic, as you point out. As I said, it tends to make us think of a liquid colorant, like Rit fabric dye, rather than a printing ribbon with solid ink or chunks of wax-based pigment, like the Phaser uses. But they basically all work the same way; they all use solid ink in various forms. So they probably shouldn't use the term "dye sublimation". But as I said, we're kinda stuck with that term. So after all this nonsense, has anyone here figured out whether the Alps printers can still be used to print model RR decals? From all that I've read, that still seems to be the best of all possible worlds. SignatureThe fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) > On 7/22/2010 2:26 AM Peter W. spake thus: > > I have also worked with the Xerox Phaser printers and their "DyeSub" > > ink is a high-gloss waxy layer on top of plain paper. It can be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > technologies. It is unfortunate that manufacturers use terminology so > loosely and confusingly. Yes, the terminology is confusing and you also mixed 2 printer types (in your previous post). Lets clarify things. 1st link http://www.office.xerox.com/printers/color-printers/phaser-480-x/supl-enus.html This is a real Dye Sublimation process printer. It uses wide carrier ribbon coated with solid dye (as shown on that page). That printer need special media which can absorb the vaporised dye. Print head heats up the solid dye to the pint it evaporates from the carrier and the vapor is absorbed into the print media. It is a solid dye not solid ink printing. This printing method is very similar to Alps Photgraphic Quality (aka DyeSub) printing. Uses special dyes and special print media. 2nd link http://www.office.xerox.com/solid-ink/solid-ink-faq/enus.html This is a printer which uses solid blocks of crayon-like wax/resin "ink" (not solid dye). That "ink" is melted (liquified) inside the printer then it is squirted out of the print head onto print media. It cools instantly on top of the print media. Print media can be plain paper since the "ink" doesn't have to be absorbed into it. Since the ink is in liquid state this is not a Dye Sublimation printer. Solid- ink is just another marketing term. If you examine that web page you'll notice that the word "sublimation" is not mentioned. It is becasue this printer does not use Dye Sublimation printing. This print method is not the same as standard Micro Dry Alps process but is is similar. Micro Dry process uses solid wax/resin ink on a carrier film. The print head liquifies that ink depositing it on the print media. That ink cools and hardens on the surface of the print media. The print media can be plain paper since the ink is on otp of it (not absorbed into it). I hope that this clarifies the confusion. Decal paper does not readily absorb vaporised dyes so only Micro Dry process can be used to print decals. > One thing is for sure, that all these printers we're discussing here use > sublimation to get the ink (I'll use that term to describe "the stuff [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > printers can still be used to print model RR decals? From all that I've > read, that still seems to be the best of all possible worlds. Yes! :-) I'm not sure why are you using the word "still". Alps printers haven't changed (as far as the printing technology goes) since they were first introduced in the 90s. Peteski |
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