Wiring Questions:
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Twibil - 23 Aug 2010 22:30 GMT Okay, so I've got the last of the track laid on the industrial section of my switching layout, and am ready to start wiring.
What gauge of wire would youse guys recommend for the main busses that run from the transformer to the individual feeder wires, and would you prefer solid or stranded wire for same?
Despite the fact that solid-conductor wire is a bit more difficult to thread through the layout's underpinnings, I tend to prefer it because I find it's easier to strip and solder the feeder wires to.
The length of the main busses won't exceed 25', and I'm using single- strand #22 copper wire for the feeders.
Yay and nays, thoughtfully reasoned opinions, and frothing "Real model railroaders always do it *THIS* way" type replies will all be considered after approprate sorting.
~Pete
Greg Procter - 24 Aug 2010 04:07 GMT > Okay, so I've got the last of the track laid on the industrial section > of my switching layout, and am ready to start wiring. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > ~Pete I wander down to my local recycled house parts yard and buy odd bits of house wiring. It's usually two core consisting of 10 amp (3 strand) in red and black insulation covered by an outer white plastic sheath. Don't bother with older wiring. As I'm happy with relatively short lengths (10-25ft) they sell it to me for a few dollars per quite a lot. :-) It might be cheaper if I sent my daughter!
Regards, Greg.P.
None - 24 Aug 2010 20:42 GMT > I wander down to my local recycled house parts yard and buy odd bits > of house wiring. It's usually two core consisting of 10 amp (3 strand) > in red and black insulation covered by an outer white plastic sheath. > Don't bother with older wiring. You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time getting them to close.
Greg Procter - 24 Aug 2010 22:50 GMT > > I wander down to my local recycled house parts yard and buy odd bits > > of house wiring. It's usually two core consisting of 10 amp (3 strand) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time > getting them to close. Seems electricians do things differently over here - I've never met a "suitcase connector" and I have only come across those screw-on "hats/nuts" on imported US electrical equipment. Presumably you use similar plastic coated copper/alloy wire ;-) but I have to go looking in obscure reference books to figure out what AWG gauges are.
Regards, Greg.P. NZ
Rick Jones - 25 Aug 2010 00:03 GMT > You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time > getting them to close. I avoid them like the plague. Those are what's known as "insulation displacement connectors" or IDCs. As someone who's done field service repairs on a lot of industrial equipment over the past couple of decades, I've had to replace a number of IDCs of various types because the wires become loose in them causing arcing, annealing of the connection and wires, and eventual failure. Crimp lugs that were not crimped tight are another similar failure I've seen repeatedly.
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Wolf K - 25 Aug 2010 03:34 GMT >> You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time >> getting them to close. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > connection and wires, and eventual failure. Crimp lugs that were not > crimped tight are another similar failure I've seen repeatedly. Could you do us a favour, and rate different types of connections, based on your experience? Eg, solder, wire nuts, screw-type terminals, etc.
Thanks, wolf k.
Greg Procter - 25 Aug 2010 22:17 GMT > >> You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time > >> getting them to close. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thanks, > wolf k. The rating of each type of connection will depend on the situation and conditions it is used for.
Much of the wiring on a model railway is fixed, not subject to vibration mechanical force and is never subject to disconnection and reconnection.
Mechanical connection, such as 'through insulation clips' (suitcase) nuts and even screw terminals rely on mechanical presure and will eventually degrade through oxidation and relaxing mechanical force.
Crimp lugs generally have greater mechanical force (provided they are properly fitted) but spade terminals will eventually degrade contact between spade and socket. (20 years) Disconnecting and reconnecting the spade connection solves that problem.
Solder plus mechanical connection is still probably the best connection for model railway purposes.
The exception is of course components/modules that will be replaced. (eg point motors)
The most common cause of failures in modern electronics is failed solder joints, but then most electronics have huge numbers of such joints.
Probably rocket scientists will plump for the cut/clamp type connections but the application's lifetime will be shorter than model railways. Telephone infrastructurewiring mostly uses the same system, but that relates more to the costs of instalation and much lower currents than typical MR situations.
Greg.P.
Rick Jones - 26 Aug 2010 00:59 GMT > Could you do us a favour, and rate different types of connections, based > on your experience? Eg, solder, wire nuts, screw-type terminals, etc. OK, you asked for it. A bit of background first: I've been involved with industrial electronics, mainly motor controls (variable speed drives), for nearly 2 decades. Prior to that I mostly worked on computer or microprocessor-controlled equipment going back into the late '70s. That included mainframes to PCs. As mentioned in my previous post, in the field I have had to replace many connections that failed or were failing because they were getting loose. Badly crimped lugs and insulation displacement connectors (IDCs) make up very close to 100% of these failures. The connections that very, very rarely seem to fail are the screw clamp type, wherein a wire is inserted into a slot or hole and a screw is tightened clamping the wire in place. IDCs work by having a metal piece with a slot, sometimes with sharpened edges. The wire is pressed down into this slot and the metal sides cut through the insulation making contact with the wire. Unfortunately, as Greg mentions in his post, flexing or movement or vibration of the wire and IDC can work the wire until it becomes loose in this slot. A loose electrical connection - ANY electrical connection - builds up resistance. As electrical current passes through a resistance it generates heat; heat can cause annealing of the wire and connector, which creates more resistance, which creates more heat, etc. Poorly crimped ring lugs, fork lugs, butt splices and other sorts of crimp connections can suffer the same failures. Overwhelmingly, the failed connections I have had to replace over the years have carried much higher current than we typically have flowing through our wires, track and layouts. The half amp that a modern loco with a can motor might pull at most probably won't burn up many connections. Intermittent operation is probably a bigger nuisance we have to watch out for. However, on a large home or club layout with multiple engines drawing power from one DCC booster or multiple analog throttles using a large common transformer for power, we could pull sufficient amperage to cause an eventual problem at a connection which is not tight. What will I use on my layout once I have a satisfactory design and can afford to get it started? As mentioned above, screw clamp terminals have proven the most reliable in industrial applications. I have seen these used on input and output terminals for variable speed drives carrying hundreds of amps at up to 600 volts AC and they have rarely failed. They are also widely used where control wiring needs to terminate to a circuit board. I have a few hundred single terminal blocks that can be bunched together on a piece of DIN rail to create whatever size of terminal strip I may need. Here's a link to a photo of this style of terminal block: http://media.digikey.com/photos/Phoenix%20Photos/3044131.JPG?cshift_ck=null&clie nt_id=5042
The other type of connection that I would trust is the common screw terminal strip that we're all familiar with, using ring or fork lugs that are PROPERLY crimped. For this you need the right tool. Avoid crimpers with jaws that look like a pair of parentheses (). These are the worthless crimpers that create all of the bad crimp lugs I've had to replace. Get a good pair that creates an indented crimp, sort of like this: D). The crimpers I use are made by Klein. When I crimp a wire with these it WON'T come apart or work itself loose. For feeders from the bus to the track I think there's only one way to do it: strip a short bit of the bus, wrap the feeder wire around the bus wire a few times, and solder it. It's more time consuming than the quicky suitcase connectors but it should give worry free, reliable operation for decades. With a pair of wire strippers you can just cut through the insulation without nicking or cutting the wire, and push the insulation an inch or so back on itself, leaving a bit of bare wire to work on. I hope some of you can find this information useful.
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Lobby Dosser - 26 Aug 2010 02:29 GMT > I hope some of you can find this information useful. I did. Thanks.
PV - 26 Aug 2010 18:01 GMT > As mentioned in my previous post, in the field I have had to replace >many connections that failed or were failing because they were getting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >inserted into a slot or hole and a screw is tightened clamping the wire >in place. This is really true. I've found one single kind of displacement spade lug that seems to never fail - ones sold by radio shack for use on the end of phone wire. I use a lot of these for lighting wires hooked to terminal strips, and they're bulletproof. Normal insulated spade lugs? Not so much.
Another kind of connector I experimented with and liked was a splice block that telco people use. It looks like a little circular 'wart' with a button on the center. You stick two wires to be spliced into it (no stripping required), squeeze the button with pliers, and it snaps shut with a satisfying click, stripping the wires and squirting them with some kind of conductive glue. 100% effective, but not cheap! *
 Signature * PV Something like badgers, something like lizards, and something like corkscrews.
Wolf K - 26 Aug 2010 22:50 GMT [...]
> I hope some of you can find this information useful. Thanks, Rick. Several layout construction stories I've read recently mention IDC connectors. The price of the crimping tool and the connectors has deterred me, I'll stick to the tried and true. ;-)
wolf k.
Mark Mathu - 03 Sep 2010 08:43 GMT >Thanks, Rick. Several layout construction stories I've read recently >mention IDC connectors. The price of the crimping tool and the >connectors has deterred me, I'll stick to the tried and true. ;-) I've been successful using a simple parallel jaw pliers(which I got at my local hardware store specifically for this task) to crimp IDCs. I like the ease of making splices with them compared to soldering -- especially connecting feeder wires along a bus wire -- and will use them again for future power wiring work.
I got my IDCs on-line at Mouser Electronics.
__________ Mark Mathu Whitefish Bay, Wis. The Green Bay Route: http://www.greenbayroute.com/
Rick Jones - 27 Aug 2010 00:14 GMT >> Could you do us a favour, and rate different types of connections, based >> on your experience? Eg, solder, wire nuts, screw-type terminals, etc. > > OK, you asked for it... <snip>
> I hope some of you can find this information useful. One more thing I meant to mention: When doing field service work on these industrial electrical and electronic installations, there are 4 things we told customers to keep in mind in order to keep their equipment operating reliably.
1. Keep it clean. Dust, dirt and other contaminants on electrical and electronic circuitry is bad. Not only can it conduct current, causing sensitive electronics to begin acting flaky or major arcing in a high power circuit, but a heavy film of dust acts as an insulator holding in heat and adding further stress to components.
2. Keep it dry. Just common sense that anybody working around electrical circuits should know, but I've seen some very poorly thought out variable speed drive installations that could easily get wet from wind blowing rain in through vents, or just the nightly fog that comes in off the ocean in some locations.
3. Keep it tight. This applies mostly to the screw type terminals I mentioned previously since crimps mostly can't be re-tightened. They can work loose over time and we suggested that a maintenance person come back and re-tighten the power connections a few weeks after a new installation or retrofit is done, and then check them twice a year as an ongoing preventative maintenance routine.
4. Keep it cool. As mentioned above in #1, heat stresses electronics and other electrical equipment such as motors. Keeping it operating within a comfortable temperature range will help lengthen the lifespan of equipment.
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Lobby Dosser - 25 Aug 2010 00:58 GMT On Aug 23, 11:07 pm, Greg Procter <proc...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> I wander down to my local recycled house parts yard and buy odd bits > of house wiring. It's usually two core consisting of 10 amp (3 strand) > in red and black insulation covered by an outer white plastic sheath. > Don't bother with older wiring. You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time getting them to close.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a tool for that. Something like a pair of pliers. Last time I saw one it was in the $40+ neighborhood and I decided wire nuts would be just fine.
Larry Blanchard - 25 Aug 2010 21:24 GMT > On Aug 23, 11:07 pm, Greg Procter <proc...@ihug.co.nz> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time > getting them to close. --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> There is a tool for that. Something like a pair of pliers. Last time I > saw one it was in the $40+ neighborhood and I decided wire nuts would be > just fine. I use pliers - works for me.
 Signature Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
Greg Procter - 25 Aug 2010 22:20 GMT > > "None" <joeschmo.7@gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:c9dd5661-8441-4bd4-a220- [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I use pliers - works for me. Not everyone can use normal pliers and make a neat job - my brother-in-law reduced a connector to something that looked like it had been through a car shredder inside 5 minutes - admittedly it still worked ;-)
cad - 26 Aug 2010 05:53 GMT From 50+ years of chasing problems.
For HO ----- Total length of run less than 20' 20 gauge should be fine (for single motor units).
The change to DCC, means that 'common' areas of the wiring could see 3/' 5/ or even 10 times the single unit draw. So 12 Ga. or even maybe 10 Ga. (25' + buss length) wouldn't be excessieve.
22 Ga. drops from EVERY piece of running rail along with metal rail joiners will work well. (Also eliminates the search for the 'non conducting joiner' that always shows up along with visitors.
Color coding is good --- and DOCUMENT everything.
Chuck Davis
Puckdropper - 28 Aug 2010 05:20 GMT *snip*
> Color coding is good --- and DOCUMENT everything. > > Chuck Davis Update the documentation as you go along as well! (It may be a good idea to document the wiring under the layout on the layout framework itself, that way it's right in front of you.)
Puckdropper
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bobharvey - 28 Aug 2010 14:10 GMT > > I wander down to my local recycled house parts yard and buy odd bits > > of house wiring. It's usually two core consisting of 10 amp (3 strand) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You ever use those suitcase connectors? I'm having a bear of a time > getting them to close. 'scotchbloc' connectors? you have to have exactly the right one for the right size of wire. I use a pair of pliers to force the comb in, then close the clip in a separate action ditto.
PV - 24 Aug 2010 19:02 GMT >What gauge of wire would youse guys recommend for the main busses that >run from the transformer to the individual feeder wires, and would you >prefer solid or stranded wire for same? House wiring. It's cheap and flexible. Personally I use stranded, but either will work fine. *
 Signature * PV Something like badgers, something like lizards, and something like corkscrews.
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