Wow, I am confused on the regs, help a BABAR?

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Tim - 29 Dec 2003 00:08 GMT

I've been out of the HPR scene for close to 5 years and I have been wanting
to get back into it. I've heard of the new regulations but I don't fully
understand them. When I flew HPR, all I needed was a LEUP and have an ATF
agent come to my house ask me a few questions. I think it cost me like $40?

Now, all I want to do is be in compliance with all state/local/federal
regulations (if that's possible) so I can build and launch some rockets. I
would like to have the option to buy and store some motors if it is not cost
prohibiting. At the very least, I would like to be able to purchase motors
at a launch.

From what I've read, to be able to buy motors at a launch, I need to apply
for a LEUP for the now economical $100, and be finger-printed and
interviewed by the ATF (which is ATFE now?).

If I want to purchase and store motors, I need a LEUP and a type 4 storage
magazine and the finger-printing and the ATFE interview and the record
keeping and be subject to inspections for compliance and ???

Gawd, this got awefully complicated. I've read some of the regs and am not
sure what I need to do. I've been on ROL and read their info page (that
appears to be outdated?).

Can someone explain to me what I need to do?

I live in PA, am over 18 (way over), a US citizen. What's the first step?

Thanks for reading this born-again born-again rocketeer's ramblings...

Reply to this Message

Jerry Irvine - 29 Dec 2003 00:27 GMT

> I've been out of the HPR scene for close to 5 years and I have been wanting
> to get back into it. I've heard of the new regulations

Let's be very clear. There are no new regulations for user. The current
regs have been in place 8+ years.

Tripoli has changed to the gross and extreme negative. NAR has changed
to the gross and extreme negativ. But ATF and DOT have not changed.

> but I don't fully
> understand them. When I flew HPR, all I needed was a LEUP and have an ATF
> agent come to my house ask me a few questions. I think it cost me like $40?

It's $200 now and NOT needed for rockets.

http://www.v-serv.com/usr/ATFexempt.htm

Additions welcome.

> Now, all I want to do is be in compliance with all state/local/federal
> regulations (if that's possible) so I can build and launch some rockets. I
> would like to have the option to buy and store some motors if it is not cost
> prohibiting. At the very least, I would like to be able to purchase motors
> at a launch.

Avoid TRA and NAR and it is as simple as falling off a log.

> From what I've read, to be able to buy motors at a launch, I need to apply
> for a LEUP for the now economical $100, and be finger-printed and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Can someone explain to me what I need to do?

CITE 27 CFR 555.141-a-8 verbatim to every person, group, club, agent, or
agency that tells you the CRAP above. It is FALSE.

> I live in PA, am over 18 (way over), a US citizen. What's the first step?
>
> Thanks for reading this born-again born-again rocketeer's ramblings...

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.

Reply to this Message

Tim - 29 Dec 2003 01:04 GMT

> Let's be very clear. There are no new regulations for user. The current
> regs have been in place 8+ years.

Back then I was told I needed a LEUP, so I got one. Are you telling me I
didn't need one then (based on your comment below)?

> Tripoli has changed to the gross and extreme negative. NAR has changed
> to the gross and extreme negativ.

Could you explain this to me using little words so I can understand?

>But ATF and DOT have not changed.

So I can order motors from another state and have then shipped with no
hassle? What are the requirements for purchasing HPR motors in or out of
state? NAR/TRA membership? Isn't that requirement in some CFR, NPF, WTF or
whatever?

> > but I don't fully
> > understand them. When I flew HPR, all I needed was a LEUP and have an ATF
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://www.v-serv.com/usr/ATFexempt.htm

Interesting reading... still deciphering some of it.

> Additions welcome.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Avoid TRA and NAR and it is as simple as falling off a log.

I've fallen from a few logs in my day and it really is simple, can flying
HPR be that simple as well?

Unfortunately, the only places I can fly is at an NAR club sanctioned site.
So I joined the NAR but am hesitant to join TRA again. After reading all of
the crap that TRA has been doing lately, I don't want to support that kind
of behaviour.

> > From what I've read, to be able to buy motors at a launch, I need to apply
> > for a LEUP for the now economical $100, and be finger-printed and
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> >
> > Thanks for reading this born-again born-again rocketeer's ramblings...

Nice to see that you're keeping the fires going after all these years Jerry.
I used to read rmr long ago and enjoyed your comments then as I do now. I
would love to try some of your motors someday.

Please everyone, be gentle, I feel that I am starting over in this hobby and
some of my comments/questions may be quite stupid and common knowledge among
you here. There are only so many hours in the day to be reading rmr and
searching the web...

So what you're telling me is that I need to do nothing. I don't need a LEUP
for usage and/or storage nor do I need a magazine for storage.

Thanks again,
-tz

Reply to this Message

Jerry Irvine - 29 Dec 2003 01:21 GMT

> > Let's be very clear. There are no new regulations for user. The current
> > regs have been in place 8+ years.
>
> Back then I was told I needed a LEUP, so I got one. Are you telling me I
> didn't need one then (based on your comment below)?

YES. And NOT based on my "comment below". Based on the LAW 27 CFR
55.141-a-8 then and 555.141-a-8 now. AND CONFIRMED IN THE ORANGE BOOK
(THE CRIB NOTES OF THE ATF).

> > Tripoli has changed to the gross and extreme negative. NAR has changed
> > to the gross and extreme negativ.
>
> Could you explain this to me using little words so I can understand?

NAR and TRA REQUIRE ATF PERMITS BY INTERNAL CLUB POLICY for
manufacturers, vendors, consumers, NOT required by LAW and are told are
NOT required by THEIR $300,000 lawyers hired by NAR and TRA. Is that
simnple enough for you????

A simple test follows: ARE NAR AND TRA TOTAL SUICIDAL MORONS?

> >But ATF and DOT have not changed.
>
> So I can order motors from another state and have then shipped with no
> hassle?

IF you can find a vendor NOT blackballed or coerced by TRA or NAR. These
vendors do NOT include: AT, AMW, CTI.

> What are the requirements for purchasing HPR motors in or out of
> state? NAR/TRA membership? Isn't that requirement in some CFR, NPF, WTF or
> whatever?

1. You must be breathing.
2. You must prove you are over 21 or someone in the household is over 21.
3. You do not reside in California.
4. You intend to use the motors for the "purposes intended".

END.

To DISCHARGE, IF over 113g (240ns) propellant per flight then FAA
waiver. (free)

END.

Dozens of people here LIE to you about variances to that and STILL sleep
at night. They have NO compunction, ethics, or desire for freedoms still
remaining in law.

Jerry Irvine told you so.

> > > but I don't fully
> > > understand them. When I flew HPR, all I needed was a LEUP and have an
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I've fallen from a few logs in my day and it really is simple, can flying
> HPR be that simple as well?

While avoiding TRA and NAR like the PLAGUE, yes, else, NO WAY!!!

> Unfortunately, the only places I can fly is at an NAR club sanctioned site.

False. Fly same site different day, or get off your a.s and find a site
like THEY DID.

> So I joined the NAR but am hesitant to join TRA again. After reading all of
> the crap that TRA has been doing lately, I don't want to support that kind
> of behaviour.

Good plan.

> > > From what I've read, to be able to buy motors at a launch, I need to
> apply
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> I used to read rmr long ago and enjoyed your comments then as I do now. I
> would love to try some of your motors someday.

Show me.

Jerry

> Please everyone, be gentle, I feel that I am starting over in this hobby and
> some of my comments/questions may be quite stupid

Zero so far!

> and common knowledge among
> you here. There are only so many hours in the day to be reading rmr and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks again,
> -tz

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RayDunakin - 29 Dec 2003 02:31 GMT

Jerry wrote:
<< CITE 27 CFR 555.141-a-8 verbatim to every person, group, club, agent, or
agency that tells you the CRAP above. >>

Jerry, what do you suggest folks do if this cite fails to persuade ATF?

Reply to this Message

Jerry Irvine - 29 Dec 2003 02:38 GMT

> Jerry wrote:
> << CITE 27 CFR 555.141-a-8 verbatim to every person, group, club, agent, or
> agency that tells you the CRAP above. >>
>
> Jerry, what do you suggest folks do if this cite fails to persuade ATF?

Let'sbe very clear.

EVERY time it has been persistemtly CITED and ADVOCATED the jack-booted
thugs have deferred to the law. IT IS THEIR DUTY.

Blink and they have your a.s. NEVER blink.

If you happen to be the VERY first case of them NOT BLINKING first, do
not VIOLATE A POLICE ORDER. That is a separate crime.

Withdraw your application on the basis the police order is itself
illegal then proivide proof to NAR's attorneys and judge.

Jerry

Never give up, never surrender.

Never, Never, Never.

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm
to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient
warrant."
- John Stuart Mill
<http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/John_Stuart_Mill/>
(1806 - 1873), "On Liberty", 1859

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing."
- Edmund Burke

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Nozzlehead - 29 Dec 2003 08:35 GMT

>Never give up, never surrender.
>
>Never, Never, Never.

Yeah like I trust a word you say Jerry.

Reply to this Message

Jerry Irvine - 29 Dec 2003 15:31 GMT

> >Never give up, never surrender.
> >
> >Never, Never, Never.
>
> Yeah like I trust a word you say Jerry.

I assume you do not, and act accordingly to your own peril.

Jerry

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Nozzlehead - 30 Dec 2003 05:05 GMT

>I assume you do not, and act accordingly to your own peril.

Better that than 10 years and $10,000. I don't trust your advice one
bit.

Reply to this Message

RayDunakin - 29 Dec 2003 02:24 GMT

<< From what I've read, to be able to buy motors at a launch, I need to apply
for a LEUP >>

Not necessarily. Depends a lot on your local vendor. "Easy Access" is still an
option at this time, unless the vendor has been scared into CYA mode.

Also, at many launches you can buy and fly larger motors at the site without a
LEUP as long as you are doing it "under the supervision" of the vendor/LEUP
holder.

Reply to this Message

Jerry Irvine - 29 Dec 2003 02:31 GMT

> << From what I've read, to be able to buy motors at a launch, I need to apply
> for a LEUP >>
>
> Not necessarily. Depends a lot on your local vendor. "Easy Access" is still an
> option at this time, unless the vendor has been scared into CYA mode.

By TRA and NAR.

> Also, at many launches you can buy and fly larger motors at the site without a
> LEUP as long as you are doing it "under the supervision" of the vendor/LEUP
> holder.

AND exempt per 27 CFR555.141-a-8.

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Model Forum / General / Rockets / December 2003

Wow, I am confused on the regs, help a BABAR?