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NAR President's TARC 2004 Report - Serious Stuff

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Mark B. Bundick - 26 May 2004 01:45 GMT
1. National Space Society Visit

On Friday, May 21, George Rachor and I visited for an hour with George
Whitesides, the new Executive Director of the National Space Society.
He promised to give us a hand when we needed action, either around
NPRM's or legislative activity.

2. Capitol Hill Visit

After our NSS meeting, George Rachor, John Kyte and I spent 45 minutes
with House and Senate staff discussing legislative options.  John has
some follow up work to do after this meeting and, as we all know, the
process of education about rocketry matters on Capitol Hill is slow
and requires patience and persistence.

We did identify some possible opportunities for both legislative
action and Congressional interaction with ATFE directly, and John will
be following up with staff and Members to further investigate and
determine how real the opportunities might be.  We will keep you
apprised of any action, especially if we need support for Members of
Congress.

3. TARC Launch

Ross Arends, Executive Assistant for Congressional Liaison to the
Director of BATFE, spent about 3 hours at the TARC flyoffs in the
company of Senator Enzi, myself, NAR Secretary George Rachor, John
Kyte, and many NAR members.  

Ross came in response to Senator Enzi's invitation to the Director to
attend TARC, and I would like to take this opportunity to publicly
thank Ross for spending a part of his weekend with the NAR at TARC
2004.

A group of NAR/TRA high-power fliers, led by Bill Schworer, put on a
carefully-designed and extremely professional display of HPR
technology and flying for Ross, and for the large crowd of TARC
flyers, aerospace industry and NASA VIP's, etc. in the late afternoon
between the end of the flying competition and the award ceremony.

Bill and his team also went over EVERY detail of the safety and
technology of our hobby with Ross, letting him handle and see the
technology in action.  All in all, it was an excellent opportunity to
communicate directly to the top of BATFE (outside of a courtroom) who
we are and what our concerns are with BATFE. (Senator Enzi also
participated directly in some of these discussions out on the HPR
range.)

All those involved came away recognizing that Ross was there to listen
and learn. Everyone involved, Ross, the HPR crew and NAR "management"
was polite, engaged and completely professional.  Ross promised to
take our messages back to the Director, but obviously could not
predict results.

Wall Street Journal reporter Bobby Block also attended TARC on
Saturday afternoon, and maintains a strong interest in our hobby and
our challenges.  

4. Summary:

We used an excellent opportunity to educate a senior ATF official
about our hobby and concerns.  We continue our education process in
the Congress. We're continuing to make more friends in the aerospace
and education communities.  We're generating more and more good press
about the safety, education and fun of sport rocketry.  The public is
"getting it," understanding that our hobby isn't a threat to their
safety in any way.

All of these things are working to create an environment where we can
secure that unregulated future we need and want.  Your patience,
persistence and continued support will be needed to help us reach that
goal.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Mark B. Bundick           mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net
NAR President             www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A dark night in a city that knows how to keep its secrets, but high
above the quiet streets on the twelfth floor of the Acme Building,
one man is still trying to find the answers to life's persistent
questions. Guy Noir, Private Eye."
RayDunakin - 26 May 2004 02:13 GMT
<< We used an excellent opportunity to educate a senior ATF official about our
hobby and concerns.  We continue our education process in the Congress. We're
continuing to make more friends in the aerospace and education communities.
We're generating more and more good press about the safety, education and fun
of sport rocketry.  The public is "getting it," understanding that our hobby
isn't a threat to their safety in any way. >>

Way to go! Thanks Mark, and everyone else involved, for this great work!
Word of Reason - 27 May 2004 12:43 GMT
> 1. National Space Society Visit
>
> On Friday, May 21, George Rachor and I visited for an hour with George
> Whitesides, the new Executive Director of the National Space Society.
> He promised to give us a hand when we needed action, either around
> NPRM's or legislative activity.

Networking is a very powerful tool.

> 2. Capitol Hill Visit
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> apprised of any action, especially if we need support for Members of
> Congress.

Well the needs' of the many out weigh the needs' of the few or the
one.  ATM,
model and amateur rocketeers are the "few".  I just don't think that
given the current war against terrorism, threats real or contribed,
that regulations are going to be laxed and therefore rocketry given a
"free pass".

Reality is that alot of wheels have been and will be spun with zero
net effect given our current national security threat.  Perhaps,
patience should be employed and the rocket commnunity start "building
bridges" and "stepping on toes" under a more favorible climate?

> 3. TARC Launch
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> thank Ross for spending a part of his weekend with the NAR at TARC
> 2004.

Ok so he came, he saw, and he left ... net effect zero :)  You put far
far too much faith in our Federal Government ... just think, if a
federal official witnesses a NRA skeet shoot, does this mean conceal
and carry laws will be replealed during the next congressional
meeting?

> A group of NAR/TRA high-power fliers, led by Bill Schworer, put on a
> carefully-designed and extremely professional display of HPR
> technology and flying for Ross, and for the large crowd of TARC
> flyers, aerospace industry and NASA VIP's, etc. in the late afternoon
> between the end of the flying competition and the award ceremony.

This has been done how many times in the past in front of fire
marshals, mayors, BATF, DOT personel ... again those wheels are
spinning ...

> Bill and his team also went over EVERY detail of the safety and
> technology of our hobby with Ross, letting him handle and see the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> participated directly in some of these discussions out on the HPR
> range.)

You mean to tell me that up to this point, this had not been known or
communicated to the top echelons of the BATF leadership or field
managers ...
it took some 20 years to reach this point ... hell at this rate most
of you will be dead cold in the ground or over your widow's mantle in
an urn before
this gets ironed out.

> All those involved came away recognizing that Ross was there to listen
> and learn. Everyone involved, Ross, the HPR crew and NAR "management"
> was polite, engaged and completely professional.  Ross promised to
> take our messages back to the Director, but obviously could not
> predict results.

Again those wheels are a spinning ... look Bunny, just mix your own
propellant on site and use.  Or fly hybrid before you expire!

> Wall Street Journal reporter Bobby Block also attended TARC on
> Saturday afternoon, and maintains a strong interest in our hobby and
> our challenges.  

That is nice, but its not going to help.  We are regulated and once
the Feds have their fangs in your butt cheeks, they DON'T let go.
They might soften the grip but they never let go.  Look at taxation,
when it was first envoked, under Pres. Lincoln, it was used to fund
the war between the states.  It was supposed to end once the war ended
... then in the early 20th century, it was supposed to be a maximum
1.25% on income ... well things sure have changed for the worse!

I guess we did win on appealing prohabition, but that was because the
MANY not the Few ... love a good ale or stout or logger or gin :)

> 4. Summary:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "getting it," understanding that our hobby isn't a threat to their
> safety in any way.

Ok but Bunny, these things were ALREADY done in during the "golden
era"
of rocketry.  Remeber who Nar Member #2 was?  Verner von Braun!  No
come on
Bunny if von Braun was not influential enough ... then kiss rocketry
good bye!

Folks, all that is being done has been done in in spades serveral
times over back in the 1960s.  I guess the education is just
continuing for another 40 years :)

I can use a model rocket powered by a "B" motor to critically wound or
even kill another human being.  Just embed razors in the leading edges
of the fins, and in the countour of the nose cone.  Maybe even design
an explosive warhead by using a nail driven back into a blasting cap
or shot gun shell and detonating the black powder and nails.

I know ... bad rocketeer poster, but I am just trying to get you to
say things that are REALISTIC :) There are other ways to use rockets
to kill people, but lets not others any ideas :)

Hell a road flare attached to the nose or payload compartment of a
high-powered rocket and launched into a heavily wooded area ... see my
point?
I wish it weren't so easy ...

> All of these things are working to create an environment where we can
> secure that unregulated future we need and want.  Your patience,
> persistence and continued support will be needed to help us reach that
> goal.

Unregulated isn't going to happen Bunny ... not in your life time nor
mine and I am in my 30s ... do the math.

> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Mark B. Bundick           mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> one man is still trying to find the answers to life's persistent
> questions. Guy Noir, Private Eye."

Personally, I am an Johnny Dollar fan :)  

We both want the same thing Bunny, but in the end we will receive
something far short of our desired goals.
RayDunakin - 27 May 2004 21:50 GMT
Anonymous Troll wrote:
<< Well the needs' of the many out weigh the needs' of the few or the one.  >>

No, they do not. Life isn't a Star Trek episode.

<< You put far far too much faith in our Federal Government ... >>
<< This has been done how many times in the past in front of fire marshals,
mayors, BATF, DOT personel ... again those wheels are spinning ... >>

Huh?... in another post you said we should "work" with the government to get a
compromise. Now you say we shouldn't. Make up your mind.

<< I can use a model rocket powered by a "B" motor to critically wound or even
kill another human being. >>

Sounds like we should ban YOU, not rockets.

<< bad rocketeer poster,>>

Yes.

<< but I am just trying to get you to say things that are REALISTIC >>

Your goofy statements like the one below are not "realistic":

<< Hell a road flare attached to the nose or payload compartment of a
high-powered rocket and launched into a heavily wooded area . >>

Why would anyone go to that much trouble to start a wildfire? There are many
simpler, more efficient ways. Same with all these other cockamamie schemes you
keep coming up with, like putting razor blades on modrocs.
Jerry Irvine - 27 May 2004 21:53 GMT
> Anonymous Troll wrote:
> << Well the needs' of the many out weigh the needs' of the few or the one.  >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> simpler, more efficient ways. Same with all these other cockamamie schemes you
> keep coming up with, like putting razor blades on modrocs.

Hence the word "troll" Ray.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv

Dave Grayvis - 27 May 2004 21:55 GMT
> Anonymous Troll wrote:
> << Well the needs' of the many out weigh the needs' of the few or the one.  >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> simpler, more efficient ways. Same with all these other cockamamie schemes you
> keep coming up with, like putting razor blades on modrocs.

Everything he has mentioned, is available at Wal Mart.  Ban Wal Mart!
Word of Reason - 28 May 2004 04:45 GMT
> > Anonymous Troll wrote:
> > << Well the needs' of the many out weigh the needs' of the few or the one.  >>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Everything he has mentioned, is available at Wal Mart.  Ban Wal Mart!

Yes!  And Walmarts ARE being banned in communities all over America!
Bob Kaplow - 28 May 2004 03:19 GMT
> Anonymous Troll wrote:
> << Well the needs' of the many out weigh the needs' of the few or the one.  >>
>
> No, they do not. Life isn't a Star Trek episode.

If it was, we could send Jerry a red t-shirt :-)

    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
        >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
   www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA!   http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
RayDunakin - 28 May 2004 06:20 GMT
>> No, they do not. Life isn't a Star Trek episode.

>If it was, we could send Jerry a red t-shirt :-)

LOL! The dreaded Red Shirt of Certain Doom!

"I gotta get outta here! I'm not even supposed to be here -- I'm just the guy
who gets killed in the first fifteen minutes to prove that the situation is
serious!"   -- Sam Rockwell, "Galaxy Quest"
Word of Reason - 28 May 2004 05:17 GMT
> Anonymous Troll wrote:
> << Well the needs' of the many out weigh the needs' of the few or the one.  >>
>
> No, they do not. Life isn't a Star Trek episode.

No Life is a Star Trek episode!  Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not an
escalator!

> << You put far far too much faith in our Federal Government ... >>
> << This has been done how many times in the past in front of fire marshals,
> mayors, BATF, DOT personel ... again those wheels are spinning ... >>
>
> Huh?... in another post you said we should "work" with the government to get a
> compromise. Now you say we shouldn't. Make up your mind.

Well you can't beat the government ... they will just come out and
shoot your wife, and your child , ala Randy Weaver, Ruby Ridge.  Look,
the government is the greatest single impediment to freedom and
personal happiness for most Americans.  If you are gay, it bans your
lifestyle.  If you are black, it places you into a racial cast system.
If you are a white male, it blames you for all the ills of the
planet.  The Uniter States Federal Government is a very oppresses
entity.

Now with that said, the government is not going away.  It is not going
to allow you to fly ANYTHING YOU WANT.  Please stop sniffing meth or
smoking crack ... the government is NOT your friend.

Howsoever, we must work within the conditions and confines of its over
extending and oppressive tenticles.  Either that, or you fly nothing.
Lets see be regualted out of existence or take it up the butt and fly
something ...
you have free will to chose your path ... just be ready to be held
accountable.

> << I can use a model rocket powered by a "B" motor to critically wound or even
> kill another human being. >>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yes.

Yeah, I could kill a man with simple tools ... don't need guns, just
objects that get he done ... I chose not to because my personal
freedom is more important than almost all humans on planet earth ...
except for Usama Bin Laden ... I would consider it a personal honor to
kill him ... really.

> << but I am just trying to get you to say things that are REALISTIC >>
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> simpler, more efficient ways. Same with all these other cockamamie schemes you
> keep coming up with, like putting razor blades on modrocs.

Sigh ... you are the reason this nation is falling apart from the top
down ... let me use little simple words so you and others can
undestand the REALITY of our situation with regards to why our
activites are so heavily monitored:

Wildfires destroy millions of dollars of property every year in the
Unites States, mainly the North West, West, and South West.  These
fires also KILL, uh Terminate ... small word ... end the lives of
hundreds of people.  In order to fight these fires, states expend,
spend, lose millions, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars
fighting the fires and paying out home owner claims, i.e. Berkeley
Hills fires, or the recent Arizona fires of the last 2 years.

Histry lesson time - During world war 2, the one with John Wayne, the
Japanese launched hundreds of ballons with the intent of starting
fires in the forests
of the Pacific Northwest.  They also managed to launch an ultra-lite
from a submarine off the Oregon cost and drop "flare bombs".  They
managed to start a fire that the forrest service was able to put out
due to low winds.

So you see, yes Virgina, people do start forrest fires, and I hope
they don't chose rockets to start them with.

End of class, I expect a report on my desk by Monday :)  

I'm sorry I sound so damn arrogant and flipant, but day after day year
after year I meet people and am very dissapointed in my fellow human
... yes I am a misanthrope ... why not?
RayDunakin - 28 May 2004 06:31 GMT
Anonymous Troll wrote:
<< Look, the government is the greatest single impediment to freedom and
personal happiness for most Americans. >>

Yeah, but it's because of folks like you who keep telling the government how
"dangerous" everything is, and demanding to be "protected". Terrorists don't
scare me, but you do. No terrorist can take away my freedom, only my
government, at the behest of people like yourself.

<< So you see, yes Virgina, people do start forrest fires,>>

Wow, you figured that out all on your own?  

<< ...and I hope they don't chose rockets to start them with. >>

One more time: Why would they use rockets, when there are thousands of simpler,
easier, more efficient methods? And why single out rockets for federal
regulation, when no one has ever used a rocket to intentionally start a forest
fire? Why not just ban matches, or cigarettes?

You can come up with a million theoretically possible ways to misuse anything,
but only a fascist jackass would use that as an excuse for excessive
regulation.

<< I'm sorry I sound so damn arrogant and flipant...>>

Mostly just stupid and irrational.
Word of Reason - 28 May 2004 11:08 GMT
> Anonymous Troll wrote:
> << Look, the government is the greatest single impediment to freedom and
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Mostly just stupid and irrational.

I would use a rocket setup with a timer to trigger the ignition ... I
could load the nosecone with Anthrax or Seryn gase and trigger an
areial deployment with an altimiter.  This could be done from a park
in the local DC area ... well just thinking stupid and irrationally I
guess ... :)

BTW, camoflague the rocket and hide it in some thick dense woods ...
set it up in the late afternoon, early evening ... have it launch
around 8:30 am ... why ... well lets examine my stupid and irrational
thinking ways :)

8:30 is a good time during rush hour in the DC area.  If I announce
via a note left federal building that a rocket attack will occur later
that morning, it will cause a stir with law enforcement ... then once
the rockets start flying , it then causes a panic ... with road ways
already packed it will even cause more panic, fear, and deaths due to
the "stampede" effect ... yep I sure am stupid and irrational :)

Now if an stupid irrational troll like me can just put together a
pretty good attack upon the capitol of the United States with items
that I can create in my basement, don't you think a zealot of Alah who
wants nothing more then to kill your white Christian a.s, would not do
even better?  Hmmmm ... and you wonder why your hobby is in danger of
being removed from the landscape ... wonder why ... but you are a
rocket scientist right?  Wrong.
David Weinshenker - 28 May 2004 15:40 GMT
> I could load the nosecone with Anthrax or Seryn gase and trigger an
> areial deployment

Well, if you had access to that sort of toxic or infectious agents in the
first place, and aimed to do something destructive with them, I doubt that
government restrictions on toy rockets would be much of an inhibiting factor!

-dave w
RayDunakin - 28 May 2004 15:44 GMT
Fascist Troll wrote:
<< I would use a rocket setup with a timer to trigger the ignition ... >>

No need to do that when you could just hook up the timer to a flare.

<< yep I sure am stupid and irrational  >>

That's the first thing you've gotten right yet.

<< Now if an stupid irrational troll like me can just put together a pretty
good attack upon the capitol of the United States with items that I can create
in my basement >>

No, you've just imagined a fantasy scenario and declared it credible.
almax - 31 May 2004 18:13 GMT
Silly Skater and Hyper Word wrote:

> Now if an stupid irrational troll like me can just put together a
> pretty good attack upon the capitol of the United States with items
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> being removed from the landscape ... wonder why ... but you are a
> rocket scientist right?  Wrong.

Please go back to Skating and leave rockets for the rest of us.

You could, I imagine, strap 144 road flares to your skating jacket, and
skate right into the middle of a park in fall with leaves on the ground and
cause a blaring fire and panic amongst the other skaters and bladers. I
guess we need to ban them as well, and you will be out yet another hobby.
 
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