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Model Forum / General / Rockets / May 2004Best Pyrogen survey
I have been playing with Igniterman conductive primer and making bridgeless igniters - also using Igniterman Pyrogen on top of the primer dip. Seems to work well but the pyrogen is a bit lumpy (despite much mixing). I also have a Firestar Pyrogen Kit and a Magnalite Pyrogen Kit, still to be opened and tried. Has anyone used a variety of pyrogens - what is your personal preference? I am looking for the best pyrogen to use. Suggesions? TIA Murray www.LDRS23.org July 1 - 6, 2004 Geneseo, NY THE DEADLINE FOR EARLY REGISTRATION AND TO BOOK RESERVED HOTEL ROOMS IS FAST APPROACHING.... Book today! Don't be disappointed. Magnalite Pyrogen Four M1315s in 0.167 Seconds http://nikeproject.com/ldrs21/IgnitionBitmaps/Ignition.htm Wedge Oldham http://BlackBrant2.com > I have been playing with Igniterman conductive primer and making > bridgeless igniters - also using Igniterman Pyrogen on top of the primer [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > THE DEADLINE FOR EARLY REGISTRATION AND TO BOOK RESERVED HOTEL ROOMS IS > FAST APPROACHING.... Book today! Don't be disappointed. > Magnalite Pyrogen > Four M1315s in 0.167 Seconds > http://nikeproject.com/ldrs21/IgnitionBitmaps/Ignition.htm That's very good for through nozzle ignited! Jerry  SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Thanks, and those were Medusa nozzles with a 0.350" center throat too! Wedge > > Magnalite Pyrogen > > Four M1315s in 0.167 Seconds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jerry Second that. We used magnalite pyrogen on a 7x38mm J2000 cluster. All motors lit. I've been using it for the last few years and its great stuff. http://www.blastzone.com/balls2002.asp > Magnalite Pyrogen > Four M1315s in 0.167 Seconds [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > THE DEADLINE FOR EARLY REGISTRATION AND TO BOOK RESERVED HOTEL ROOMS IS > > FAST APPROACHING.... Book today! Don't be disappointed. http://www.ColonialVirginiaHPR.org/hellfire.html ....Ed > I have been playing with Igniterman conductive primer and making > bridgeless igniters - also using Igniterman Pyrogen on top of the primer [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > THE DEADLINE FOR EARLY REGISTRATION AND TO BOOK RESERVED HOTEL ROOMS IS > FAST APPROACHING.... Book today! Don't be disappointed. Hi, Here's my observations for two types of pyrogen: Igniterman: Pros: 1) Very hot when it burns; hotter than Magnalite. 2) Pyrogen is relatively heavy so when it burns, burning chunks of it get imbedded in the propellant. 3) Never seen the pyrogen "pop" instead of burn when ignited. Cons: 1) Not a very smooth pyrogen so it goes on kind-of "chunky"; not good for small igniters. 2) Igniter heads with this pyrogen are fragile and the pyrogen cracks very easily once dry. Sometimes (not often) this will cause the igniter to be electrically open and not work. Magnalite: Pros: 1) A very smooth pyrogen so very small, thin igniters can be made successfully. 2) Ignites at a relatively low temperature... Ignites easily. 3) Pyrogen binder (stuff that makes pyrogen stick to the wire leads of the igniter) is VERY good; makes for a tough, durable igniter. Cons: 1) Sometimes pyrogen will "pop" instead of ignite, if igniter not made carefully (multi-dipping the pyrogen). 2) Sometimes won't ignite really hard to light (old) propellant. This can be solved by scraping the propellant prior to inserting igniter. Basically, both of the pyrogens are excellent. The Igniterman pyrogen isn't that good for making really small igniters, like for small single use composite motors but the Magnalite is. On the other hand, for really hard to light propellant, I have never had a mis-fire with the Igniterman pyrogen. I use both of them because each type has strengths over the other. Both of them work well with the conductive primer. Hope this helps... Daniel > I have been playing with Igniterman conductive primer and making > bridgeless igniters - also using Igniterman Pyrogen on top of the primer [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > THE DEADLINE FOR EARLY REGISTRATION AND TO BOOK RESERVED HOTEL ROOMS IS > FAST APPROACHING.... Book today! Don't be disappointed. >Hi, >Here's my observations for two types of pyrogen: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >1) Not a very smooth pyrogen so it goes on kind-of "chunky"; not good >for small igniters. How small are you talking? I successfully use igniterman to make igniters for Aerotech 18mm RMS motors, which are _pretty_ small. SignatureDarren J Longhorn http://www.geocities.com/darrenlonghorn/ NSRG #005 http://www.northstarrocketry.org.uk/ UKRA #1094 L2 RSO http://www.ukra.org.uk/ I thought a major "pro" for Igniterman is that the ends of the wires just need to be properly spaced & parrallel, whereas I thought with Magnalite, you have twist additional thinner wires around the initial two wires (a major "con" in my book). Am I right about that? -- 'Richard "damn, I'm going for a hummus special, ie, with ground beef on top of it" Hickok > I thought a major "pro" for Igniterman is that the ends of the wires just > need [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hummus > special, ie, with ground beef on top of it" Hickok With Magnalite you BUY the prepped wires. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >>>With Magnalite you BUY the prepped wires. Sounds like that would jack-up the price somewhat. Plenty of us start out wanting something more reliable than the ole' Copperhead, but many also hope for something economical too. http://www.extremerocketry.com/reviews/pdfs/issue5_review1.pdf -- Richard "damn, that hummus special was good!!" Hickok Nothing says that you MUST use the Magnalite prepped wires. It is a whole lot cheaper to wire wrap a few inches of #36 or #38 nichrome onto the end of your twisted pair - and after a bit of practise it is a breeze. The trick is to only have a very short length of nichrome actually conducting on its own as that's the part that will provide the resistive conductor and heat up. Murray >With Magnalite you BUY the prepped wires. >I thought a major "pro" for Igniterman is that the ends of the wires just need >to be properly spaced & parrallel, whereas I thought with Magnalite, you have >twist additional thinner wires around the initial two wires (a major "con" in >my book). Am I right about that? -- 'Richard "damn, I'm going for a hummus >special, ie, with ground beef on top of it" Hickok Don't confuse the conductive primer with the pyrogen - they are two seperate dips. To create the foundation of the ematch one needs something that will provide sufficient heat to ignite the pyrogen... which is the dip that is going to give off plenty of heat and chunks of burning metal to ignite the motor. One can use either (a) a conductive primer, where one spaces the bare wire at the end of the twisted pair and dips it into a conductive mixture that will then heat up when powered, or (b) use a heater element... a small piece of nichrome wire for example, that will heat up white hot when power is applied. Generally, the nichrome bridge wire will require less current - the shorter the nichrome bridge wire the less current required. I am playing with BOTH. They are both easy to use. The dip requires that the two wires be evenly spaced and parallel. The nichrome bridge wire, with a little practice, takes about 20 seconds to wire wrap onto the end of the twisted pair. Wish I could explain how I do it. I took apart a commercial igniter sold at Performance Hobbies and copied the way they wrap the nichrome. No soldering. Works great. Once you have the foundation that will generate sufficient heat (either conductive primer dip or nichrome bridgewire) you then dip this into PYROGEN, which will provide a larger 'quantity' of white hot metal particles and a longer 'burn'. I have been playing with Igniterman conductive primer dip AND pyrogen dip. Seems to work well, but the pyrogen dip, as confirmed on RMR, is "chunky" - making it a little less practical for, say, Estes D motors. I am going to try the Magnalite pyrogen dip over a nichrome bridgewire ematch. I have plenty of nichrome purchased on eBay for a few bucks. I have 26 ga. twisted pair, which is a bit heavy for the smaller motors.... I am looking for something like 30 or 32 guage wirewrap twisted pair to work with. Thanks for the input fellows. Murray Lampert LSRS23 July 1 - 6 , 2004 Geneseo NY www.ldrs23.org > 'Richard "damn, I'm going for a hummus special, ie, with ground beef on top of it" Hickok You can get hummus in hillbilly land?! Ground beef??!!! That's blasphemy! You gotta take a ride up my way for hummus. Leave the pickup and the gun rack home, though, Rich. Better yet, there's some KILLER schwarma and kofte kebab around here, too. Can't beat either with a mali kulfi chaser. Gene "I-always-forget-DC-ain't-hillbilly-land" Costanza > >Hi, > >Here's my observations for two types of pyrogen: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > How small are you talking? I successfully use igniterman to make > igniters for Aerotech 18mm RMS motors, which are _pretty_ small. I use the Firefox conductive mix and if the wires I use will fit into a 18mm, the igniter will work. Joel. phx >I use the Firefox conductive mix and if the wires I use will fit into a >18mm, the igniter will work. > >Joel. phx That's what I use too, except for I just use the conductive primer as the first coat, then recoat once or twice with my own pyrogen formula that is more durable and doesn't need sealing. That way, the conductive stuff goes a long way. Lately though I've switched over to milling my own graphite from leftover lathe swarf from turning nozzles to use in my own conductive pyrogen mix. Mike Fisher > >I use the Firefox conductive mix and if the wires I use will fit into a > >18mm, the igniter will work. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That way, the conductive stuff goes a long way. Long way? Haven't finished the ones I made off that first set. They have a hotter dip for overcoat, forget what it was called. > Lately though I've switched over to milling my own graphite from leftover lathe > swarf from turning nozzles to use in my own conductive pyrogen mix. Now that's darn right cheating ;) Joel. phx One of these days I'll figure out a use for all this mag swarf,.... > Mike Fisher >One of these days I'll figure out a use for all this mag swarf,.... Throw it in the propellant mixer and fire it in a motor. That's what I do. It makes for a really bright flame plume and loud burn. No sparks though, it all gets vaporized in the flame zone. 10% to 15% coarse mag shavings works nicely. Mike F. > >One of these days I'll figure out a use for all this mag swarf,.... > > Throw it in the propellant mixer and fire it in a motor. That's what I do. It > makes for a really bright flame plume and loud burn. No sparks though, it all > gets vaporized in the flame zone. 10% to 15% coarse mag shavings works nicely. Did I leave the smiley off? ;) Joel. phx Loud is good. I'm not a big believer in sparks. A little too close to fireworks, and a definite fire danger. > Mike F. > I'm not a big believer in sparks. A little too close to >fireworks, and a definite fire danger. Not according to tests involving NFPA. These involved counting spark impacts in the diameter around the launch pad. The fire risk was negligable, and thus sparkys are allowed under the safety code. I've never done a sparky, but I do have some ti flake on hand to try one of these days. Mike F. << Not according to tests involving NFPA. These involved counting spark impacts in the diameter around the launch pad. The fire risk was negligable, and thus sparkys are allowed under the safety code.>> Not to mention that the primary factor which truly defines fire risk level is: Location. I wouldn't launch a 1/4A motor from a field of dry, knee high grass and weeds. Many parts of the desert are so devoid of flammables that you could horizontally static fire a daisy ring of Skidmark M's, and the only "disaster" would be the tragic waste of some cool motors. :) > << Not according to tests involving NFPA. These involved counting spark > impacts in the diameter around the launch pad. The fire risk was negligable, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > horizontally static fire a daisy ring of Skidmark M's, and the only "disaster" > would be the tragic waste of some cool motors. :) We did the "worst" Firestarter test at Ocotillo which has very dry but somewhat spread out plants. We fired a K125-FS (54mm) in a Sonic 3100 set for instability. It generated about 20 seconds of terror, land shark, massive plant impingement and NO FIRES. Sad really. Considering it was called Firestarter and everything. Just TECH Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Pathological Liar wrote: > We did the "worst" Firestarter test at Ocotillo which has very dry but > somewhat spread out plants. We fired a K125-FS (54mm) in a Sonic 3100 > set for instability. Who is "we"? (remember, "less than two employees") > It generated about 20 seconds of terror, land shark, massive plant > impingement and NO FIRES. > > Sad really. Considering it was called Firestarter and everything. You were sad because you could not start a fire? > Just PatheTECH Jerry > Pathological Liar wrote: > Who is "we"? (remember, "less than two employees") Then that must be a lie as well. Only logical. Oh, and this too. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Jerry wrote: << We did the "worst" Firestarter test at Ocotillo which has very dry but somewhat spread out plants. We fired a K125-FS (54mm) in a Sonic 3100 set for instability. It generated about 20 seconds of terror, land shark, massive plant impingement and NO FIRES. >> Same thing happened when I put one in my 4" camera rocket. Sputtered on a pad for several seconds, finally lifted off to about 20 feet, lost power, hit the ground and then the motor fully pressurized and it skipped across the ground for about a half mile. Most impressive landshark I've ever seen. << Here's my observations for two types of pyrogen:>> <snip exellent observations> Isn't this all kind of moot now that Igniterman isn't being made anymore? I just purchased Igniterman from Just Rockets. There are a few others still carrying it as well.... you sure it's not being made anymore? Several suppliers seems to have it. Murray ><< Here's my observations for two types of pyrogen:>> ><snip exellent observations> > >Isn't this all kind of moot now that Igniterman isn't being made anymore? << I just purchased Igniterman from Just Rockets. There are a few others still carrying it as well.... you sure it's not being made anymore? Several suppliers seems to have it. >> A while back I wanted to get some from Pratt Hobbies, found they no longer listed it, and asked Doug about it. He said the manufacturer wasn't making it anymore. Either the dealers you bought it from had old stock, or things have changed since I talked to Doug. BTW, where _did_ you get it? I could use some more pyrogen. Like I say... I bought some from Just Rockets www.justrockets.com - and I understand that Hobby Connection www.hobbyconnection.com, in Elma NY has it in stock. Both are great suppliers. I think that Hobby Connection is going to be at LDRS in July. You could order and pick it up if you are coming to LDRS. I have been playing with the Igniterman conductive dip and pyrogen. I am finding that the conductive dip and pyrogen light quickly and burn fiercely for a second or two. When I use nichrome bridgewire, I am having varying results - the best is instant ignition and fierce burn as above, but with a lower current requirement to get it going. The worst is likewise but a short delay before it begins to burn, which to me is unacceptable. I am going to (a) try changing my wirewrapping technique to see if it improves time to ignition; and (b) try the Magnalite pyrogen on top of both conductive primer and nichrome bridgewire. If the Magnalite pyrogen, as stated on RMR, requires a lower temp to get going - it may start a lot faster either way. I will report back. Now... what do I do with the Firestar pyrogen kit that I have? Anyone have any comments on the Firestar Pyrogen kit? Here is what their website states... sounds like a claim to be the BEST to me. Anyone want to comment? From Firestar website: The FireStar Electric Match produces the same plasma ball but with one great difference! From within the plasma ball there is a release of literally thousands of white hot metal particles, (over 5900 Deg. F.). These particles are like miniature shooting stars that slam into the surface of the propellant creating a crater hundreds of atoms deep. The crater in turn produces a large propellant debris field that is hurled upward in the heart of the expanding plasma ball. This propellant debris field immediately ignites adding its energy to the main plasma burst. Thus, the FireStar Electric Match is a Volume Penetration Burn. The chart below summarizes the results: Wimp Igniters -------------------------------- Surface Hot-spots Igniter with more Ignition Material ------ Full Surface Burn FireStar Electric Match ------------------- Full surface + Volume Penetration Bum With Volume Penetration Burn your Rocket Motor will leap oft the launch pad leaving your competition eating your rocket motor exhaust gases! -------- end of quote ----------------- Tnx for all of the input. Murray P.S. We tried dipping a couple of Oxral e matches into Igniterman pyrogen. WOW. Instant (and I mean INSTANT! ignition of the pyrogen using an old 9V battery. THAT's the way I will go for airstarts I think. Comments? ><< I just purchased Igniterman from Just Rockets. There are a few others still >carrying it as well.... you sure it's not being made anymore? Several suppliers [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >BTW, where _did_ you get it? I could use some more pyrogen. << We tried dipping a couple of Oxral e matches into Igniterman pyrogen. WOW. Instant (and I mean INSTANT! ignition of the pyrogen using an old 9V battery. THAT's the way I will go for airstarts I think. Comments? >> That's what I've been doing for any situation that requires fast, positive ignition. Cons: 1) Sometimes pyrogen will "pop" instead of ignite, if igniter not made carefully (multi-dipping the pyrogen). 2) Sometimes won't ignite really hard to light (old) propellant. This can be solved by scraping the propellant prior to inserting igniter. Hi Daniel, I must point out that our included instructions clearly state that you should "never double dip the electric match as this will result in the igniter poping rather than igniting." Our pyrogen uses Magnesium powder which requires a lower temprature to ignite (around 680 F) and burns at a temprature of around 6,400 F. This is why you should never stare directly at the burning pyrogen if doing an open burn test. Other pyrogens use much cheaper costing metals such as Pyro Aluminum powder that require a higher starting temprature than Magnesium powder and only produce a final burning temprature of around 4,566 F. Greg Dyben Rocketflite/Magnelite www.rocketflite.com I note with some interest that Firestar = Scott Dyben, President Magnelite = Greg Dyben My curiousity is killin' me - what's the relationship AND is the pyrogen the same formulation? Thanks. Sorry for being nosey. More interested in the pyrogen than the family history. Murray >Cons: >1) Sometimes pyrogen will "pop" instead of ignite, if igniter not made [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Rocketflite/Magnelite >www.rocketflite.com > I note with some interest that > Firestar = Scott Dyben, President [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks. Sorry for being nosey. More interested in the pyrogen than the family > history. Firestar, Magnelite, and RocketFlite are all the same family. ne of the Dybens would better be able to explain any differences in the pyrogen. From a user standpoint I've used both and not noticed any significant difference. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html We are brothers and our businesses support each other. The FireStar pyrogen is different in that uses a different elastomer & oxidizer and contains one additional metal. Both pyrogens were formulated by myself. BUT THE MAIN DIFFERENCE is that purchasing Magnelite pyrogen & wires helps raise funds for bringing back the Rocketflite motor line. FireStar profits go to my brother. Greg Dyben Rocketflite/Magnelite > I have been playing with Igniterman conductive primer and making > bridgeless igniters - also using Igniterman Pyrogen on top of the primer [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Suggesions? I have both Igniter Man and Magnalite. They both have advantages over the other. Right now, I prefer the Magnalite. SignatureDrake "Doc" Damerau www.rocketmaterials.org NEPRA President NAR Section 614 NAR 79986 L3 www.nepra.com Remove "My Shorts" to reply > TIA > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > THE DEADLINE FOR EARLY REGISTRATION AND TO BOOK RESERVED HOTEL ROOMS IS > FAST APPROACHING.... Book today! Don't be disappointed. > > I have been playing with Igniterman conductive primer and making > > bridgeless igniters - also using Igniterman Pyrogen on top of the primer [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have both Igniter Man and Magnalite. They both have advantages over the > other. Right now, I prefer the Magnalite. I prefer it 100% of the time. > > TIA > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > THE DEADLINE FOR EARLY REGISTRATION AND TO BOOK RESERVED HOTEL ROOMS IS > > FAST APPROACHING.... Book today! Don't be disappointed. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > Has anyone used a variety of pyrogens - what is your personal preference? I've used FireStar and YellowJacket. Both work quite well, although the YellowJacket has the benefit of being much cheaper than anything else I've found. The drawback is that it's only available near Jim, as he won't ship it, as it hasn't been tested and he doesn't have DOT papers for it. -Kevin |
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