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Model Forum / General / Rockets / June 2004NAR or TRA?
I'm new to the rocketry hobby and pretty geeked about it. Of course, I built and flew a million Estes kits as a kid in the 70's but I never knew it went beyond that until the late 90's when I read something about high power rocketry. So I searched out the vendors and ordered a LOC IV in 1999 and built it but had nowhere to launch it because I thought that only happened out west in the desert. Then last month I found (random surfing) there were three clubs within an hour or two of me (Toledo) and I've been to two launches since. Rock on!! What strikes me most is how helpful everyone is to newcomers. Very cool (big thanks to Gary Dickinson, Jay and Lee Barry, Mark Palmer and the guy at Commonwealth Displays). My only regret is that I wish I would have found out about this earlier in the year so that I would have had time work on domestic policy agendas and re-route the family 4th of July vacation to Genesco! Anyway, I'm sure this question has been asked here many times but...I want to join NAR or TRA for all of the various benefits but mostly in anticipation of an L1 cert. I know there's all kinds of reciprocity between them, but what are the pros and cons of each? Short of any clear cut rational answer, I'm kind of liking the name "Tripoli". Mark Bostleman mbostleman@yahoo.com > Anyway, I'm sure this question has been asked here many times but...I want > to join NAR or TRA for all of the various benefits but mostly in > anticipation of an L1 cert. I know there's all kinds of reciprocity between > them, but what are the pros and cons of each? Short of any clear cut > rational answer, I'm kind of liking the name "Tripoli". If contests are your thing, NAR is the way to go. If you're really only interested in high power, Tripoli is a better fit. Otherwise, look at the local clubs and decide which one you like best. If the club is affiliated with only one of the two national organizations, I'd suggest joining that national organization. That said, you can't go wrong with either one, or as some of us do, with both. -Kevin kevin: the NAR is much more than just contest model rocketry flying....In fact I would say that contest rocketry has been completely ignored for the past 10 years in deference to HPR...and it is a very small part of the NAR these days.....80% of the NAR membership is Adult and a very large percentage of that is certified.. The major differences between the NAR and TRA from my POV are : 1. You actually get a Magazine on time if you join the NAR... 2. You can do organized AR-EX if you are a TRA member..you can do unorganized AR-EX if you are NAR..... 3. With the NAR you get Insurance coverage when you fly rockets..with the TRA nobody knows for sure if the insurnace policy is real or if its memorex.... 4. The TRA is basically HPR ONLY..the NAR encompasses the full spectrum of rocketry: Low power-Mid-Power and High Power rocketry.... 5. The TRA will kick you out if they don't like your opinion...the NAR just ignores your opinion ...... as far as liking the sound of "Tripoli" ...it kinds reminds me of the Barbary pirates of the early 18th century........ shockie B) > > Anyway, I'm sure this question has been asked here many times but...I want > > to join NAR or TRA for all of the various benefits but mostly in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -Kevin Shock wrote: << 4. The TRA is basically HPR ONLY.. the NAR encompasses the full spectrum of rocketry: Low power-Mid-Power and High Power rocketry....>> For the record, low and mid power rockets are welcome at the vast majority of TRA launches. The only exception would be if some local club discouraged modrocs at their launches. I've heard second hand reports of this happening, but it's rare. <<5. The TRA will kick you out if they don't like your opinion... >> Only a few folks were ever expelled from TRA, none recently and none for merely having an opinion. Heck, even Iz wasn't booted out. > Shock wrote: > << 4. The TRA is basically HPR ONLY.. the NAR encompasses the full spectrum of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > modrocs at their launches. I've heard second hand reports of this happening, > but it's rare. I've been to TRA launches that had a published "F minimum"... > <<5. The TRA will kick you out if they don't like your opinion... >> > Only a few folks were ever expelled from TRA, none recently and none for > merely having an opinion. Then how do you explain my expulsion? I was kicked out for expressing my opinions that were counter to the management. Dissent. And while you state that even Iz wasn't kicked out for doing so, it *WAS* discussed, so things aren't yet proper in TRA. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html >> Only a few folks were ever expelled from TRA, none recently and none for >> merely having an opinion. > >Then how do you explain my expulsion? You are one of the elite few. >I was kicked out for expressing my opinions that were counter to the management. Dissent. That isn't being done any more. As you said, Iz wasn't thrown out. >And while you state that even Iz wasn't kicked out for doing so, it *WAS* discussed, so things >aren't yet proper in TRA. At the time, I got the word directly from Iz. He said Bruce Kelly tried to entice him into quitting IIRC, he offered to refund twice his membership fee. There was never any consideration by the BoD to throw him out. On RMR, I suggested that Iz should be thrown out becuase he violated one of the rules that pertains to members intentionally trying to harm the organization. BoD members were underwhelmed by this suggestion. Those are the facts. I do not agree with you. When are you going to submit a request to the BoD for reinstatement? > >> Only a few folks were ever expelled from TRA, none recently and none for > >> merely having an opinion. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > When are you going to submit a request to the BoD for reinstatement? That will never happen Phil, as Bob would rather b&*ch about the past, then be proven wrong and move on. Fred I knew that. I just wanted to help Bob &Jerry's relationship by letting them share their hate for the common enemy. >That will never happen Phil, as Bob would rather b&*ch about the past, >then be proven wrong and move on. > >Fred > That will never happen Phil, as Bob would rather b&*ch about the past, > then be proven wrong and move on. Which I will continut to do as long as TRA management continues to keep its head burried in the sand, and pretend that everything always has been perfect. As soon as the TRA BOD takes action against those that have actually harmed the organization and it's members, I'll resubmit a membership application. Or they could just process the renewal I sent in that they refused to allow. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html > When are you going to submit a request to the BoD for reinstatement? As soon as they throw out the lyers and crooks. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html Bob K. wrote: << As soon as they throw out the lyers and crooks. >> They threw out Jerry years ago. ;) "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message > Then how do you explain my expulsion? I was kicked out for expressing my > opinions that were counter to the management. Dissent. And while you state > that even Iz wasn't kicked out for doing so, it *WAS* discussed, so things > aren't yet proper in TRA. C'mon, Bob, I know you're pron to exagerating, but now your minimizing. You know darn well that every critical "dissenting" statement of yours was followed with; "Oh yeah! Then I'm callin' the cops!" steve > "Oh yeah! > Then I'm callin' the cops!" I have heard that from Rick McGee three times now. For being a SPECTATOR at a launch.  SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > "Oh yeah! > Then I'm callin' the cops!" Jerry wrote: << I have heard that from Rick McGee three times now. For being a SPECTATOR at a launch. >> Well, I'm sure you've heard that phrase quite often from a number of people. ;) Bob K. wrote: << Then how do you explain my expulsion? I was kicked out for expressing my opinions that were counter to the management. Dissent.>> There had to be more to it than that, because lots of folks have expressed dissent with TRA, and continue to do so, without getting booted. <<And while you state that even Iz wasn't kicked out for doing so, it *WAS* discussed, so things aren't yet proper in TRA.>> Iz _deserved_ to be kicked out, not for "dissenting" but for his actively attempting to harm the organization. > Iz _deserved_ to be kicked out ... for his actively > attempting to harm the organization. I see this accusation of "attempt to harm" made a lot. I don't think it has substance. I don't think anything he wanted for TRA would not have been an improvement. -dave w > > Iz _deserved_ to be kicked out ... for his actively > > attempting to harm the organization. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -dave w Point. It would have harmed the status quo and the entrenched fraudmasters. That and TRA is one and the same, isn't it? Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Big Fine wrote: << It would have harmed the status quo and the entrenched fraudmasters. >> This had nothing to do with you. To quote the judge, "Sit down and shut up." > Big Fine wrote: > << It would have harmed the status quo and the entrenched fraudmasters. >> > > This had nothing to do with you. To quote the judge, "Sit down and shut up." Liar SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Dave W. wrote: << I see this accusation of "attempt to harm" made a lot. I don't think it has substance. I don't think anything he wanted for TRA would not have been an improvement. >> He threatened to have TRA's non-profit status revoked and the corporation dissolved. That's about as harmful as you can get, but I suppose to a TRA-hater such as yourself it must seem like a "good thing". I even find that extreme....... shockie B) > Dave W. wrote: > << I see this accusation of "attempt to harm" made a lot. I don't think it has [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > dissolved. That's about as harmful as you can get, but I suppose to a TRA-hater > such as yourself it must seem like a "good thing". > Bob K. wrote: > << Then how do you explain my expulsion? I was kicked out for expressing my > opinions that were counter to the management. Dissent.>> > > There had to be more to it than that, Selective enforcement. The dissent is on target and EFFECTIVE. > because lots of folks have expressed > dissent with TRA, and continue to do so, without getting booted. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Iz _deserved_ to be kicked out, not for "dissenting" but for his actively > attempting to harm the organization. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > Bob K. wrote: > << Then how do you explain my expulsion? I was kicked out for expressing my > opinions that were counter to the management. Dissent.>> > > There had to be more to it than that, because lots of folks have expressed > dissent with TRA, and continue to do so, without getting booted. Ask someone on the BOD for a copy of my expulsion letter. Kelly sent it (along with a copy of my personal check) to a bunch of folks, including at least one person who has never been a member of TRA. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html > > Shock wrote: > > << 4. The TRA is basically HPR ONLY.. the NAR encompasses the full spectrum [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > that even Iz wasn't kicked out for doing so, it *WAS* discussed, so things > aren't yet proper in TRA. It was up for vote in typical railroad fashion and ONE board member put his foot down and promised to resign if the vote was affirmative. FACT. > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! > http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >>Shock wrote: >><< 4. The TRA is basically HPR ONLY.. the NAR encompasses the full spectrum of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I've been to TRA launches that had a published "F minimum"... That's just wrong, in my opinion. But then, there are a few folks (thank goodness VERY few) who think that kids don't belong at high power launchs. Period. I very much disagree with that! -Kevin > >>Shock wrote: > >><< 4. The TRA is basically HPR ONLY.. the NAR encompasses the full spectrum [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > -Kevin Do not attend Balls then. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Kevin T. wrote: > That's just wrong, in my opinion. But then, there > are a few folks (thank goodness VERY few) who > think that kids don't belong at high power launchs. > Period. I very much disagree with that! Big Fine responded: << Do not attend Balls then. >> BALLS is an EX launch, not a high power launch. > Kevin T. wrote: > > That's just wrong, in my opinion. But then, there [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > BALLS is an EX launch, not a high power launch. That is false. Joel. phx > BALLS is an EX launch, not a high power launch. Joel wrote: << That is false. >> How do you figure? Isn't BALLS an EX launch? > > BALLS is an EX launch, not a high power launch. > > Joel wrote: > << That is false. >> > > How do you figure? Isn't BALLS an EX launch? My mistake, I was thinking bowling ball launch.... Joel. phx >> I've been to TRA launches that had a published "F minimum"... > > That's just wrong, in my opinion. But then, there are a few folks > (thank goodness VERY few) who think that kids don't belong at high power > launchs. Period. I very much disagree with that! It asn't an issue of kids. It was an issue of tying up range time wit little rockets. Not that it was ever an issue or that it wasn't caused by sloppy range operations. In fact I offered to get some NIRA folks to help out and set up a parallel range to offload all the small stuff, and was turned down. BTW, the day of the launch the ceiling was 800'. Since no one brought any small stuff, they went ahead and flew HPR that disappeared intot he clouds, maybe to return a minute or so later under chute. They'd rather violate their waiver and FARs than fly "little rockets". Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html So I don't get it... Are you a NAR section officer, section Senior advisor or what? You are (or were) on NAR sections mailing list but, you are most definately very anti NAR. It just doesn't make sense. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me. Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > kevin: > the NAR is much more than just contest model rocketry flying....In fact I [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > > > -Kevin greg: I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section.... Here we preach toleration of opposing points of view..... Where does it say as a NAR section prez I can't make anti-NAR (your words not mine) remarks ......as far as my comments, can't you read between the lines and see the sarcasm ? Besides my comments are mostly positive about the NAR and negative about the TRA... IF and when I make disparging remarks about the NAR it is as an Individual NAR member, NOT as a NAR section prez.....How is it hypocritical? Can't a person hold 2 opposing trains of thought in their mind at one time? As a NAR member and a NAR section pres, I cannot say or have negative thought processes about the NAR? I might add that if you look at this or nay other forum in which I participate, I encourage all people to join the NAR. And I am dedicated to growing NAR membership here in KY. In toto I think the NAR does much more good than it does bad and thats why I support it....even though I may disagree with some of its positions..... And I believe some of what I said....the NAR has been preoccupied over the past 10 years with HPR and its associated lawsuits.. thats my opinion, I may be wrong or I may be right....I also think the lawsuits are a waste of time and money....Mark Bundick disagrees vehemetly but at the same time he has also been saying since 1994, get your LEUP to be legal.... The following is still on the NAR website: "You must apply for and receive a BATF Low Explosives User Permit before taking receipt of any rocket motors exceeding 62.5 grams of propellant, unless both you and the seller reside in the same state." Is this NOT hypocritical? Isn't the current position of the NAR that rocket motors regardless of what size are PADs and therefore are exempt from the ATF LEUP? HUH? shockie B) > So I don't get it... Are you a NAR section officer, section Senior advisor > or what? You are (or were) on NAR sections mailing list but, you are [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > > > > > -Kevin > and money....Mark Bundick disagrees vehemetly but at the same time he has > also been saying since 1994, get your LEUP to be legal.... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > motors regardless of what size are PADs and therefore are exempt from the > ATF LEUP? HUH? Mark Bundick? Jack Kane? Johnson? Gasaholic? Hmmm?? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Shockie, Thank you for clearing that up. However when I confronted you about this very same thing on the NAR Sections list you pretty much immediately stopped posting and never provided this info. I am looking at your comments from the prospective of a NAR section president myself. Quite frankly I am puzzled. But I guess - whatever. > greg: > I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section.... Here we preach > toleration of opposing points of view..... Where does it say as a NAR > section prez I can't make anti-NAR (your words not mine) remarks ......as I am not sure it does. However your comments (in my opinion) question why you would even be a part of NAR, expecially if you really felt that way. They are that extreeme. Perhaps you do not realize this. > far as my comments, can't you read between the lines and see the sarcasm ? Sorry no. > Besides my comments are mostly positive about the NAR and negative about the > TRA... IF and when I make disparging remarks about the NAR it is as an Really... Perhaps you need to review your remarks. > Individual NAR member, NOT as a NAR section prez.....How is it hypocritical? Because you are doing it on the NAR sections list as a NAR section officer? I think you get a big DUH on that one. Sorry. > Can't a person hold 2 opposing trains of thought in their mind at one time? Only if your name is John Kerry :-) > As a NAR member and a NAR section pres, I cannot say or have negative > thought processes about the NAR? I might add that if you look at this or > nay other forum in which I participate, I encourage all people to join the > NAR. And I am dedicated to growing NAR membership here in KY. In toto I > think the NAR does much more good than it does bad and thats why I support > it....even though I may disagree with some of its positions..... Taking your comments into account I find this train of thought bizzarre. > And I believe some of what I said....the NAR has been preoccupied over the > past 10 years with HPR and its associated lawsuits.. thats my opinion, I may > be wrong or I may be right....I also think the lawsuits are a waste of time > and money....Mark Bundick disagrees vehemetly but at the same time he has > also been saying since 1994, get your LEUP to be legal.... Because it is the law? Or reccogonized as the law?? > The following is still on the NAR website: > > "You must apply for and receive a BATF Low Explosives User Permit before > taking receipt of any rocket motors exceeding 62.5 grams of propellant, > unless both you and the seller reside in the same state." Yep. > Is this NOT hypocritical? Isn't the current position of the NAR that rocket > motors regardless of what size are PADs and therefore are exempt from the > ATF LEUP? HUH? Yes but it is not currently the law. Or is it is not recognized as the law. Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > Shockie, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I am not sure it does. However your comments (in my opinion) question > why you would even be a part of NAR, expecially if you really felt that way. If you saw what he says in email you would KNOW he does not belong in NAR. > They are that extreeme. Perhaps you do not realize this. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Taking your comments into account I find this train of thought > bizzarre. Typical. > > And I believe some of what I said....the NAR has been preoccupied over the > > past 10 years with HPR and its associated lawsuits.. thats my opinion, I [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Yes but it is not currently the law. Or is it is not recognized as the law. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv oh shut up jerry..... at least I don't go around violating the law....thats more than can obviously be said of you..... and as far as to what I may have said in private email , can people change/evolve their viewpoints over time perhaps? For example, when I first got back into rocketry approximately 2 + years ago, I had a difficult time intially accepting HPR.... I just didn't "get it"... well know I think its cool,so my viewpoint on HPR has changed /evolved over time.....My viewpoints on AR are similarly undergoing changes as we speak..... My viewpoints on YOU have changed over time..... shockie B) > > Shockie, > > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > > > Yes but it is not currently the law. Or is it is not recognized as the law. > oh shut up jerry..... at least I don't go around violating the law....thats > more than can obviously be said of you..... No you go around alleging everyone else (who actually does stuff) does. > and as far as to what I may have said in private email , can people > change/evolve their viewpoints over time perhaps? For example, when I first [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > > Yes but it is not currently the law. Or is it is not recognized as the > law. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv the ONLY "everybody else" that I have alleged is YOU and the ROL auctions..... as far as YOU are concerned, we all know it isn't "alleged" ....as far as ROL goes, thats just my interpretation of laws....I could be wrong..... shockie B( > > oh shut up jerry..... at least I don't go around violating the law....thats > > more than can obviously be said of you..... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > shockie B) > the ONLY "everybody else" that I have alleged is YOU and the ROL > auctions..... And FAI and ... and ... and you know it. > as far as YOU are concerned, we all know it isn't "alleged" ....as far as > ROL goes, thats just my interpretation of laws....I could be wrong..... What laws? Be specific. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv you are trying to bait me JI and it isn't going to work........ I have already in other posts expressed my opinions and interpretations of what ROL is doing .......There is not need to repeat them again here..if anybody wants to read them do a groups.google.com...... shockie B) > > the ONLY "everybody else" that I have alleged is YOU and the ROL > > auctions..... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What laws? Be specific. > you are trying to bait me JI It was not bait. It was an attempt to return the discussion to substance and incentivize me to post my counterclaims WITH CITES. and it isn't going to work........ > I have already in other posts expressed my opinions and interpretations of > what ROL is doing .......There is not need to repeat them again here..if [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > > What laws? Be specific. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > you are trying to bait me JI > > It was not bait. It was an attempt to return the discussion to substance > and incentivize me to post my counterclaims WITH CITES. > > and it isn't going to work........ Correct. Not with him... Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > > I have already in other posts expressed my opinions and interpretations of > > what ROL is doing .......There is not need to repeat them again here..if [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > > > > What laws? Be specific. Gee I guess everyone is trying to bait you. I guess it is a bummer to be so kick a.s. Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > you are trying to bait me JI and it isn't going to work........ > I have already in other posts expressed my opinions and interpretations of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > > What laws? Be specific. > > I am not sure it does. However your comments (in my opinion) question > > why you would even be a part of NAR, expecially if you really felt that way. > > If you saw what he says in email you would KNOW he does not belong in > NAR. So what are you saying? A NAR section president is not even a NAR member? How the heck does that work??? That would be insane. Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com ahh greg when did you confront me about this in the NAR sections list? I shall go back and review your posts ..... shockie B) > Shockie, > [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Yes but it is not currently the law. Or is it is not recognized as the law. greg: Is this the message where you "confronted" me? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NAR_Sections/message/3907 I did not see any reason to respond to your comments. If this isn't the correct message where you ":confronted" me please point it out....... > Shockie, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Sorry no. You cannot see that I am making fun of the TAR's position versus the NAR ones? > > Besides my comments are mostly positive about the NAR and negative about > the > > TRA... IF and when I make disparging remarks about the NAR it is as an > > Really... Perhaps you need to review your remarks. The only negative remark that I see that I made about the NAR was that they ignore your opinons.... > > Individual NAR member, NOT as a NAR section prez.....How is it > hypocritical? > > Because you are doing it on the NAR sections list as a NAR section officer? > I think you get a big DUH on that one. Sorry. Lets see if I got this straight.... I cannot belong to the NAR because I criticize them on certain issues? And I especially can't criticize the NAR on certain issues on their private listserve? Where should I post my comments? in RMR? They surely aren't going to be answered there now are they? > > Can't a person hold 2 opposing trains of thought in their mind at one > time? > > Only if your name is John Kerry :-) I thought it was called "multi-tasking"......... > > As a NAR member and a NAR section pres, I cannot say or have negative > > thought processes about the NAR? I might add that if you look at this or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Taking your comments into account I find this train of thought > bizzarre. Ok I will try to explain it simply for your Greg... See I am a NAR member. I am also a NAR section President. In general I beleive in 90% of what the NAR believes in... I disagree over the other 10%.... The fact that I disagree with the NAR over certain issues, does not mean that I am against the NAR totally or that I will not encourage people to join..... > > And I believe some of what I said....the NAR has been preoccupied over the > > past 10 years with HPR and its associated lawsuits.. thats my opinion, I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Because it is the law? Or reccogonized as the law?? It isn't the law until its the law........ > > The following is still on the NAR website: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Yes but it is not currently the law. Or is it is not recognized as the law. shockie B) Actually I am not sure it is worth this much trouble. Bottom line, is I confronted you and you stopped posting. That is enough for me. No need for you to counter post, pontificate or explain or anything. Simple!!! Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > greg: > Is this the message where you "confronted" me? [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > > > shockie B) I didn't respond to your so called "confrontation" because if you look at that thread it had gone on for almost 3 days with numerous posts and you came in with your supposed confrontation towards the end.... By then as far as I was concerned everybody had already expressed their opinions....and when people like you and Phil try to bait me , I just ignore the bait and the posts which is what I did in this case on the NAR Sections forum.... shockie B) > Actually I am not sure it is worth this much trouble. Bottom line, > is I confronted you and you stopped posting. That is enough for [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > > > > > shockie B) I wasn't necessarily trying to bait you. I just wanted to add my perspective to the converation which obviously didn't coincide with yours. ie I think constructive criticism is preferable to being a mealy mouth. >I didn't respond to your so called "confrontation" because if you look at >that thread it had gone on for almost 3 days with numerous posts and you [quoted text clipped - 159 lines] >> > > >> > shockie B) > I didn't respond to your so called "confrontation" because if you look at > that thread it had gone on for almost 3 days with numerous posts and you > came in with your supposed confrontation towards the end.... By then as far > as I was concerned everybody had already expressed their opinions....and > when people like you and Phil try to bait me , I just ignore the bait and > the posts which is what I did in this case on the NAR Sections forum.... I wasn't baiting you at all. I was just curious why your opinions are so anti NAR if you really are supposedly a NAR officer. I guess I was thinking the "H" word. Whatever... Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > > I didn't respond to your so called "confrontation" because if you look at > > that thread it had gone on for almost 3 days with numerous posts and you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > so anti NAR if you really are supposedly a NAR officer. I guess I > was thinking the "H" word. Whatever... That seems to be "normal" in consumer rocketry administration. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > I wasn't baiting you at all. I was just curious why your opinions are > > so anti NAR if you really are supposedly a NAR officer. I guess I > > was thinking the "H" word. Whatever... > > That seems to be "normal" in consumer rocketry administration. What does this mean? Quit beating around the bush. Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com That explains everything. Shockie if the king of the Blue Balls club. That's enough to make anyone testy. >> I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section well at least I have not become an apologist for the TRA.....shame...... I'm beginning to think this is an episode of Puppet Masters.... I don't know how they co-opted you........ I think it must be a case of Invasion of the Body Snatchers and they replaced the real Phil with you....... shockie B) > That explains everything. Shockie if the king of the Blue Balls club. > That's enough to make anyone testy. > > >> I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section This may be a valid point so here's my story. In 2002, I wanted to do my L3 Certification. At that time, I was only a member of NAR. I couldn't find a NAR L3CC member but a TRA TAP (thanks to Ray Halm) told me he would would do it if I were to join TRA. So even knowing the history of TRA according to RMR, I decided to join so I could get my L3 cert. I did get my L3 Cert in July 2002. I joined around Feb or March of 2002. That summer was the LDRS where Bruce Kelly was not reelected. I saw this as a positive step. It was also around that time that the TRA Private Forum stared. The forum has had many heated discussions over quite a few subjects that have been discussed here. Sometimes the BoD agreed with me & sometimes not. What I feel is the key is that at least they consider what people say & try to make the best descision they can. What more can you ask for? There are still things (like HPR) that I don't agree with. One thing that they changed my mind on was weather they should reveal the entire insurance policy. NAR hasn't revealed theirs either. I was given a very good reason that I promised not to reveal, but it changed my mind. My point is that no one gets their way 100% of the time & we have to be open minded enough to consider the perspective of others. I am not closed minded. There are several BoD members whom I've come to trust & respect. So, I gues those few individual have managed to body snatch me. I look forward to seeing them in about a week. Generally, TRA isn't any better or worse than NAR. Just different. >well at least I have not become an apologist for the TRA.....shame...... >I'm beginning to think this is an episode of Puppet Masters.... I don't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> >> I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section ok Phil, thats a valid response, but my only criticism about the TRA has to do with the TRA vis a vi HPR magazine....nothing more...... shockie B) > This may be a valid point so here's my story. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >> > >> >> I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section > This may be a valid point so here's my story. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > TRA. So even knowing the history of TRA according to RMR, I decided > to join so I could get my L3 cert. I did get my L3 Cert in July 2002. And just to add to Phil's story... that was at NYPOWER 2002 (BTW A NAR sanctioned launch co-hosted by MARS & BRS)... it was my truck that took Phil's rocket out to the pad... and with about 10 mins before the waiver was to expire I drove back for something... and about 5 mins before I drove back to pick up a set of rail buttons from Ken Allen that would fit the rail! And I should note that was well after the announced waiver deadline. Aren't you glad we actually got the waiver for later than the range was to be open? Consider yourself lucky that day Phil... without BRS and Ray, you would not have certified that day. ;) Doug BRS - Secretary That's true. I didn't remember that being you truck. I do remember the asvise you and many other BRS guys gave. Thanks everyone for the support. You should be seeing that rocket again with a little new paint. I know need to fill out the BFR form. See you in a few days. >> This may be a valid point so here's my story. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Doug >BRS - Secretary Phil, If you have a difference of opinion with Shockie, that's fine. I don't appreciate you resorting to name calling of the whole club, just because you have a problem with one member/ officer of our club. <rant mode off> David NAR#79313 L1 BluesRocks #5 > That explains everything. Shockie if the king of the Blue Balls club. > That's enough to make anyone testy. > > >> I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section > Phil, > If you have a difference of opinion with Shockie, that's fine. I don't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > NAR#79313 L1 > BluesRocks #5 Isn't he the PRESIDENT? > > That explains everything. Shockie if the king of the Blue Balls club. > > That's enough to make anyone testy. > > > > >> I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Sorry if I offened you. If that's all it takes, you may want to consider not taking ANYTHING so seriouly. >Phil, > If you have a difference of opinion with Shockie, that's fine. I don't [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> >> I am still the president of the BluesRockS NAR section Shockie, Once again you are talking out of you a.s. Get the facts. Almost everything you've said is wrong. Kevin is right. >kevin: >the NAR is much more than just contest model rocketry flying....In fact I [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> >> -Kevin > Shockie, > > Once again you are talking out of you a.s. Get the facts. Almost > everything you've said is wrong. I see nothing even slightly incorrect in SHockie's comments... Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html I'm not surprised. Are you representing yourself as someone that is not totally anti TRA? >> Shockie, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html > 5. The TRA will kick you out if they don't like your opinion...the NAR just > ignores your opinion ...... ROFL Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv TRA hasn't thrown him out because he never joined. NAR & others have ignored him because all he does is criticize with no constructive suggestions. HELLO try constructive criticism. Volunteers don't want to hear nothing but criticism. >> 5. The TRA will kick you out if they don't like your opinion...the NAR just >> ignores your opinion ...... > >ROFL > >Jerry I see you have fallen for the "volunteer" argument.......heheh either lead, follow or get the phuk outta the way................ I have made 2 constructive suggestions lately: 1. at the XPrize Festival have Local NAR/TRA section put on demo launches , hand out literature, sell T-shirts etc...to promote MR and HPR...Theres are 4-5 NAR/TRA clubs in the exact area where this XPrize festival is going to be held.... Perhaps the NAR /TRA could hold demos, or have Xprize competitions using stock Estes Xprize rockets in Parachute or streamer Duration events? This would provide Estes and the NAR with massive publicity along with the Xprize itself.... Or allow spectators to donate a $1 to push a launch button.or......Anything use your imagination here folks.... 2. At yesterdays SSO launch the NAR/TRA since they have several hundred members in the southern CA area, could have had the foresight to use that event for demo launches, handing out literature, selling T-shirts etc.....They had a week or two worth of notification......How much trouble would it have been to email or call the respective local NAR/TRA clubs and asked them to put together a demo launch? To get some National TV coverage perhaps? To Show that MR/HPR is a safe and important hobby? To "LINK" civilian space flight and our hobby in the minds of the public? HUH? shockie B) > TRA hasn't thrown him out because he never joined. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > >Jerry My point is that it should be approached in a constructive manner. I feel that you did not do that. Also, approaching is as we should specifically do blah blah and this is how I can contribute will open minds. I don't think your approach accomplished that. >I see you have fallen for the "volunteer" argument.......heheh >either lead, follow or get the phuk outta the way................ [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> > >> >Jerry > TRA hasn't thrown him out because he never joined. Jerry was to a member of TRA. I know he ran for the board, but don't think he was ever elected. Perhaps you shuld read some of your old TRs. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html That was in reposone to Shockie. Everyone knows Jerry & you are "special." My TR's don't go back that far. I do have a TR from when Jerry had the chance to get back in & declined to appologize for the behavior that got him thrown out. As a result, he didn't get back in. In the years since Kelly hasn't been in office, I think TRA has become a better organization. >> TRA hasn't thrown him out because he never joined. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html > That was in reposone to Shockie. Everyone knows Jerry & you are > "special." > > My TR's don't go back that far. I do have a TR from when Jerry had > the chance to get back in & declined to appologize for the behavior > that got him thrown out. As a result, he didn't get back in. Have you apologized for beating your cousin's sister? -dave w Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & really didn't mean it. Did you stop beating your wife? >> That was in reposone to Shockie. Everyone knows Jerry & you are >> "special." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >-dave w > Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is > was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & > really didn't mean it. > > Did you stop beating your wife? I've never been married to anybody. -dave w Your boy friend? >> Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is >> was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >-dave w > Your boy friend? Never married him either. :) -dave w > >> Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is > >> was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > >-dave w I think everyone should be married once. Misery loves company. 8-) >> Your boy friend? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > >> >-dave w > > Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is > > was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -dave w Will you marry when they legalize "that kind" of marraige in your state? steve > Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is > was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & > really didn't mean it. The real question 'was the accusation valid in the first place'. Is it that unrealistic to say, "you can rejoin if you promise not to beat your wife in the future"? > Did you stop beating your wife? No. Which obviously means I hadn't started beat'n her in the first place. Joel. phx > >> That was in reposone to Shockie. Everyone knows Jerry & you are > >> "special." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > >-dave w >> Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is >> was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >unrealistic to say, "you can rejoin if you promise not to beat your wife in >the future"? I know some will disagree but, - Its been so long that I'd be willing to forget the whole thing & let him back in if he just promises to be a good boy. If I were Jerry & wanted back in - I'd say I'm sorry. I won't do it again. Figuring what's one more disengenuous appology. I don't think Jerry wants to get back in. >> Did you stop beating your wife? > >No. Which obviously means I hadn't started beat'n her in the first place. No that means you're still beating her. > > Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is > > was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unrealistic to say, "you can rejoin if you promise not to beat your wife in > the future"? BTW I tried parsing the apology in those words and they "declined". They would settle for nothing less than a falsified post-facto admission of guilt. Jerry > > Did you stop beating your wife? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > > >-dave w SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Why didn't you tell them what they wanted to hear? >> > Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is >> > was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> > > >> > >-dave w > Why didn't you tell them what they wanted to hear? Because, and please sit down for this, I have vastly more ethics than they do. > >> > Many times. How did you find out about it? The real question here is > >> > was it a sincere appology or did I appologize to get out of trouble & [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >> > > > >> > >-dave w SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >>Why didn't you tell them what they wanted to hear? > > Because, and please sit down for this, I have vastly more ethics than > they do. Is that why you labeled a two hundred pound shipment of rocket motors, as "model aircraft parts"? > >>Why didn't you tell them what they wanted to hear? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is that why you labeled a two hundred pound shipment of rocket motors, > as "model aircraft parts"? I delivered. HPR magazine did not. You "promised" $5000 and "delivered" $1200. Results are the ultimate judge. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> Because, and please sit down for this, I have vastly more ethics than >> they do. > >Is that why you labeled a two hundred pound shipment of rocket motors, >as "model aircraft parts"? The comment wasn't about delivering was about your own quote of ethics... and as ya like to say jerry... Point........ to Dave > >> Because, and please sit down for this, I have vastly more ethics than > >> they do. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Point........ to Dave You crawled out of the woodwork for this? So you are saying TRA/HPR leaders have more ethics than I? If so I will be expecting them to jointly and severally personally guarantee each and every refund due every HPR subscriber for the past 14 years. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >You crawled out of the woodwork for this? Yeah just checkin in after a great weekend of launching rockets, how'd you do this weekend launching Jerry..?? We had 11 launches ourselves, three dual deploys, one that didn't go so well but where's the fun if they all go perfect.. Got to help some little ones launch some rockets, got to interface and mingle with like minded rocketry people and watch some others great launches. Was a damn good time. >So you are saying TRA/HPR leaders have more ethics than I? Don't have a clue was just responding to the idea that you claimed someone else was getting off topic when you were the one that brought up ethics in the first place.. you know just like that court you were in.. if your side brings it up it opens it up to the other side for rebuttle, which is exactly what he did.. and quite well you must admit. Anyway, more importantly what did you launch this weekend..?? > >You crawled out of the woodwork for this? > > Yeah just checkin in after a great weekend of launching rockets, how'd you do > this weekend launching Jerry..?? I flew some stuff too. I had fun. I experienced 100% clear skies and zero wind. You? > We had 11 launches ourselves, three dual deploys, one that didn't go so well > but where's the fun if they all go perfect.. Me too. But it was cool to watch :) > Got to help some little ones launch some rockets, got to interface and mingle > with like minded rocketry people and watch some others great launches. Was a > damn good time. Ditto to all. Oh, BTW caused over 1000 people to have fun flying rockets this month without being there too. Sorry to "top" you. I doubt your ego can withstand it. > >So you are saying TRA/HPR leaders have more ethics than I? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Anyway, more importantly what did you launch this weekend..?? A 6"x 6 foot rocket, a 3.2" x 5 foot rocket, a 2.25 x 3 foot rocket, and a 1.6 x 3 foot rocket. Did you fly a G008 too? Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > Yeah just checkin in after a great weekend of launching rockets, how'd you do > > this weekend launching Jerry..?? > > I flew some stuff too. I had fun. I experienced 100% clear skies and > zero wind. You? You actually fly rockets? Huh. I thought you just pontificated :-) Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > > > Yeah just checkin in after a great weekend of launching rockets, how'd > you do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You actually fly rockets? Huh. I thought you just pontificated :-) Stop thinking. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > You actually fly rockets? Huh. I thought you just pontificated :-) > > Stop thinking. Stop pontificating. Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > > > You actually fly rockets? Huh. I thought you just pontificated :-) > > > > Stop thinking. > > Stop pontificating. Stop thinking. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Stop pontificating. Signaturegcisko@hotmail.com > > > > You actually fly rockets? Huh. I thought you just pont |
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