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Model Forum / General / Rockets / September 2004[NFZ] Ejection charges, again
I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of the actual ejection charge designs I've found are based upon loose pyrotechnic powders held within a frangible container (centrifuge vials, baggie, etc) or within a reusable casing (PVC cup, etc). While building a paper tube powder holder, I was struck by the similarity to building a small motor. Has anyone experimented with a monolithic ejection charge device? By monolithic, I mean using a solid strand of pyrotechnic, like a tiny core burning propellant grain for instance. I guess, after reading this over, I'm talking about using a low thrust motor as an ejection PAD. I understand the relationship between burn rates of powders versus grains, but I'm not certain that an ejection/separation device needs to impart the steep impulse of, say, a BP charge. (My timers fire a homemade ematch, so light/flashbulb issues are not a concern.)  SignatureGary "Busy reinventing the wheel" Bolles summum jus, summa injuria est To contact me; bollesg at comcast dot net http://home.comcast.net/~bollesg/rockets/rockets.html Help make r.m.r. a No Flame Zone > I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am > ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > instance. I guess, after reading this over, I'm talking about using a > low thrust motor as an ejection PAD. Yes. I had such a device ready for certification in 1995 when I was beginnig to see consistent refusals from TRA. I also had a BP source motor ready for cert as described in prior threads. In order to persue your idea I suggest a relatively fast acting material with high gas and low temperature. APCP burns at about 5500F and BP around 1500F. So compromise is needed. Jerry > I understand the relationship between burn rates of powders versus > grains, but I'm not certain that an ejection/separation device needs to > impart the steep impulse of, say, a BP charge. > > (My timers fire a homemade ematch, so light/flashbulb issues are not a > concern.) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am >> ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Jerry Poor Jerry. > >> I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am > >> ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Poor Jerry. You can f.ck any thread no matter how tech. Keep getting drunk. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >>>>I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am >>>>ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > You can f.ck any thread no matter how tech. Keep getting drunk. Don't worry jerry, your record is safe, no One could ever come close. > >>>>I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am > >>>>ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Don't worry jerry, your record is safe, no One could ever come close. It's Sunday, the holy day of ganja. Don't pass the bong today. Bogart it. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> >> I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am >> >> ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >You can f.ck any thread no matter how tech. Keep getting drunk. Sorry - Diet Coke doesn't have any alcohol in it. Maybe you should take your drinking money & spend it on child support. Being a dead beat dad is a bad thing. <edited for brevity> >>In order to persue your idea I suggest a relatively fast acting material >>with high gas and low temperature. APCP burns at about 5500F and BP >>around 1500F. So compromise is needed. >> >>Jerry Because of familiarity, I'm thinking of a burn rate enhanced, uninhibited core burning rcandy grain in a large paper launch lug tube. The main ejection system uses a piston, the airframe separator needs to split two tethered sections. I guess I was surprised by the violent nature of the 4" piston BP ejection ground tests, although in hindsight, I should have expected it. It's made me reconsider the ejection stresses on the airframe. Gut feeling tells me a slower pressurization method will work reliably with a piston and reduce the ejection stress on the rocket as compared to a "full on" (for the ozzies) BP charge. I'm worried my nylon screw timer-airframe coupler attachments could become shear pins due to the fast pressure spike of powdered ejection charges. What propellant did you consider in your device? SignatureGary Bolles summum jus, summa injuria est To contact me; bollesg at comcast dot net http://home.comcast.net/~bollesg/rockets/rockets.html Help make r.m.r. a No Flame Zone > <edited for brevity> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > What propellant did you consider in your device? AP/BP combo KP/BP combo Sugar. I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. Just like rocket motor design, you have to manage burning surface vs time. A combo of cubes of APCP and FF BP might suit your low burning rate goal since you are using a piston. All of my rockets and assumptions personally are pistonless. Jerry "Well it looks like all the trolls are back from the weekend. It was really nice here while you were gone. Chuck and I had remnants of a tech chat (albiet a bit strtained). At least we did not go well into the gutter like you folks did instantly." - Jerry Irvine SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. Just out of curiosity, why not? -dave w > > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. > > Just out of curiosity, why not? > > -dave w High burning rate exponent, poorer physical properties. I have been keeping an eye on EX Sorbitol users who are really developing the tech. I want that to bear fruit so I can have an extrudable and mass-manufacturable propellant for a product I have in mind. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. > > Just out of curiosity, why not? Flammability during processing... Low ISP... Hygroscopic... > -dave w > > > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. > > > > Just out of curiosity, why not? > > Flammability during processing... > Low ISP... Make it bigger! > Hygroscopic... > > > -dave w SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > > > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. > > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Make it bigger! Yeah! It never occured to me tht you could make them that big! My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! > > > > > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! The FSI F100 was the biggest E48 ever. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv << My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! >> Those guys are sugar motor masters! ><< My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! >> > >Those guys are sugar motor masters! Thats kind but far from accurate, we are standing on the shoulders of giants. Richard Nakka is the real guru, without his research and software we'd still be launching bottle rockets behind the shop. Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > ><< My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! >> > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > giants. Richard Nakka is the real guru, without his research and > software we'd still be launching bottle rockets behind the shop. And having a hell of a lot of fun! > Jim Rutkowski > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > << My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! >> > > Those guys are sugar motor masters! I dunno, the "Gentleman Scientist" of KNO3+{Dextrose,Sucrose,Sorbitol,Epoxy} motors has got to be Richard Nakka. I'm not denigrating in any way the accomplishments of the good folks at Trailer Trash, but Richard has been doing this stuff for a long time (wrote a thesis on KNO3+Sucrose propellant processing back in University). With some minor coaxing from me (I sent him a slug of KNO3/Epoxy propellant a few years back), he's developed a workable propellant from KNO3/Epoxy. If the high-temperature processing of KNO3+{sugar-like-thing} gives you the willies, and you don't mind the higher per-kg cost of KNO3/Epoxy, you would do well to check out Richards experiments in this area. His site deserves a look: www.nakka-rocketry.net > > << My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! >> > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the willies, and you don't mind the higher per-kg cost of KNO3/Epoxy, > you would do well to check out Richards experiments in this area. Absolutely! KNO3/Epoxy motors are a good, inexpensive way to go. Richard has just published some data on Oxides as burn rate modifiers recently... some interesting and surprising results! And Dave (Mr. Fiberglass) has a very workable AP/Epoxy recipe that has really worked well for us! Very nice and helpful guy... > His site deserves a look: www.nakka-rocketry.net Yup! We use his hydraulic (brake cylinder) cell with a wika pressure xducer in all our hybrid testing... we've only had to replace it once, when an AP\NOS motor leaked most of the NOS and just smoked for 3 minutes. That AP is VERY corrosive! Our motors really aren't that big, the 3 grain 5" we make is only a full L...;) >Yeah! >It never occured to me tht you could make them that big! > >My hats off to TrailerTrash!!! Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com It's a whole lot bigger than the 2-389mm I've played with!!! And you've developed an L at 5" diameter - ? My god, man... and are you guys nuts?!? ;) > Our motors really aren't that big, the 3 grain 5" we make is only a > full L...;) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com >And you've developed an L at 5" diameter - ? Call it an L12K >My god, man... and are you guys nuts?!? >;) We refer to it as a large L because people can handle that. When you call something a baby N, all they hear is N. Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >And you've developed an L at 5" diameter - ? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > We refer to it as a large L because people can handle that. When you > call something a baby N, all they hear is N. N? Did you say N?!? Sweet geeezus, god almighty! An N!?! Man... I ddin't know sugar motors could be made that large... we've been playing with hybrids and epoxy... maybe it's time to re-investigate the sorbitol thang... >N? Did you say N?!? Sweet geeezus, god almighty! An N!?! > >Man... I ddin't know sugar motors could be made that large... we've been >playing with hybrids and epoxy... maybe it's time to re-investigate the >sorbitol thang... That's the 3 grain motor, a little more than 18lbs of propellant, and I think the sims are full of it, I'd say a nice fat M would be more accurate. We have a 4 grain case we haven't burned yet that sims to a middle O, once again probably exaggerated, but who cares? We are trying to come up with our own designations, for example we've settled on calling the 3 grain a "Melvin Flinger" Makes sense to US... We investigated making epoxy motors and quickly rejected it. First, epoxy is much more expensive than sorb and second, we've all built so many rockets, glassed so many tubes etc we can hardly stand the crap. Being dumbasses we got the stuff all over us for years, both Kevin and I get some nasty blisters and such, our own fault for being cavalier. Besides, I've found a far stronger and easier to use adhesive, Tite Bond... Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >N? Did you say N?!? Sweet geeezus, god almighty! An N!?! > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I think the sims are full of it, I'd say a nice fat M would be more > accurate. Have you done static tests to get real ISP at typical pressures/Kn's? That is the final answer. Jerry Pardon the tech post. I am a real screwball tonight :) > We have a 4 grain case we haven't burned yet that sims to a > middle O, once again probably exaggerated, but who cares? > > We are trying to come up with our own designations, for example we've > settled on calling the 3 grain a "Melvin Flinger" Makes sense to US... Damn liberal!! (note little L) > We investigated making epoxy motors and quickly rejected it. First, > epoxy is much more expensive than sorb and second, we've all built so > many rockets, glassed so many tubes etc we can hardly stand the crap. > Being dumbasses we got the stuff all over us for years, both Kevin and > I get some nasty blisters and such, our own fault for being cavalier. That is irreversable. > Besides, I've found a far stronger and easier to use adhesive, Tite > Bond... www.rocketmaterials.org > Jim Rutkowski > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> That's the 3 grain motor, a little more than 18lbs of propellant, and >> I think the sims are full of it, I'd say a nice fat M would be more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That is the final answer. We have a load cell, looks nice sitting in the box it came in, someday... >I am a real screwball tonight :) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Damn liberal!! (note little L) Watch it Buddy, I resemble that remark.... >> We investigated making epoxy motors and quickly rejected it. First, >> epoxy is much more expensive than sorb and second, we've all built so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That is irreversable. Yep, it took about 4 years for me not wearing gloves. If I don't immediately wash epoxy off my skin I'll break-out in little blisters, and that's nothing, we have one buddy who when exposed will fall to the floor and go into convulsions, we invite him over when we have paint to mix...;) Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >> That's the 3 grain motor, a little more than 18lbs of propellant, and > >> I think the sims are full of it, I'd say a nice fat M would be more [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > We have a load cell, looks nice sitting in the box it came in, > someday... Invite me over. You can use mine. > >That is irreversable. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> We have a load cell, looks nice sitting in the box it came in, >> someday... > >Invite me over. You can use mine. Hell ya Jerry, you are more than welcome anytime, and don't feel like you need to bring a test stand to be welcome. Let us know when you are in town so we have plenty of beer and buffalo turds on hand. You'll probably want to wear loose pants too...;) Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >> We have a load cell, looks nice sitting in the box it came in, > >> someday... > > > >Invite me over. You can use mine. > Hell ya Jerry, you are more than welcome anytime, and don't feel like > you need to bring a test stand to be welcome. Let us know when you are > in town so we have plenty of beer and buffalo turds on hand. You'll > probably want to wear loose pants too...;) GHS and I can bring the kid. We like to actually fly rockets. Hopefully a launch where even decertified motors are still allowed for "proper discharge". Jerry > Jim Rutkowski > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> Hell ya Jerry, you are more than welcome anytime, and don't feel like >> you need to bring a test stand to be welcome. Let us know when you are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Hopefully a launch where even decertified motors are still allowed for >"proper discharge". Oh hell no! You show up at the GHS launch with your motors and the world might as well come to an end. You know the drill.... Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >> Hell ya Jerry, you are more than welcome anytime, and don't feel like > >> you need to bring a test stand to be welcome. Let us know when you are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Oh hell no! You show up at the GHS launch with your motors and the > world might as well come to an end. You know the drill.... Let me know. The day(s) after GHS? > Jim Rutkowski > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Low ISP... >Hygroscopic... As a user of the stuff let me chime in.....flammability during processing, what propellant isn't? Low Isp, can't argue that, hygroscopic, yes but the simplest of precautions will prevent any degradation....ie store grains in a ziplock. Jerry mentioned in his post poor physical properties, yep, drop a grain and it will most likely crack. I think this problem will be solved, subscribe to SUGPRO, a lot of people are working on additives that might be beneficial. On the plus side of the column, it's easy to make, I've cooked-up batchs literally right next to guys making APCP, no comparison. A drunk monkey can cook KN/SB. Cost, once again no comparison, here in the PHX area we have access to major chemical distributors, buying chemicals in 100lb barrels we can churn out propellant for approx. .65/lb...that's 65 cents per POUND. Liners and O-rings are our greatest expense. However, we've even worked around that, Schedule 200 PVC pipe is a perfect fit in our 54mm hardware. At .60/ft we are talking pennies now for nice motors. Other things positive, we've built and successfully flown, offset core motors, which work well, add 3% AN and they work real well. We've had great luck with Ti, think Nitrous in race car. Also, nothing we use is the slightest bit toxic, nothing even smells bad. You can even use the sorbitol in your coffee.... Yes there are drawbacks to KNSB motors, but I can't imagine an easier cheaper way for the average rocketeer to get into EX. The big break-thru around the corner, I think anyway, is the use of the newer exotic man-made "sugars" out there, ie xylitol. We haven't gone there yet for a couple of reasons, first being cost, 5-8 times the price of sorb, and second we're lazy bastards more interested in flying that futzing around cooking propellant. Just yesterday we discovered a whole new property of this propellant, I poured about half a cup of bacon grease in a can containing a pound or so of scrap propellant then lit it....the smell will make your mouth water...try that with APCP. I think a easily extrudable, moisture resistant, physically stout propellant with good Isp and low cost is very doable. Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com Jim R. wrote: << Jerry mentioned in his post poor physical properties, yep, drop a grain and it will most likely crack. I think this problem will be solved, subscribe to SUGPRO, a lot of people are working on additives that might be beneficial. >> And in the meantime, you can avoid cracking the propellent simply by using a little common sense -- don't drop it or knock it around. << Yes there are drawbacks to KNSB motors, but I can't imagine an easier cheaper way for the average rocketeer to get into EX.>> I haven't gotten into making motors yet, but from everything I've read and heard, I'd say you're 100% correct. If/when I do start making my own motors they will probably be sugar motors. << The big break-thru around the corner, I think anyway, is the use of the newer exotic man-made "sugars" out there, ie xylitol. >> What advantages might that have? >And in the meantime, you can avoid cracking the propellent simply by using a >little common sense -- don't drop it or knock it around. Same could be said for graphite nozzles. Human nature being what it is everything in the world gets dropped occasionally. ><< Yes there are drawbacks to KNSB motors, but I can't imagine an easier >cheaper way for the average rocketeer to get into EX.>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >What advantages might that have? Lower viscosity when casting, reduced hygroscopicity, greater Isp, downside being greater cost. Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com >I haven't gotten into making motors yet, but from everything I've read and >heard, I'd say you're 100% correct. If/when I do start making my own motors >they will probably be sugar motors. The biggest/most expensive hurdle is hardware, we blatantly use Kosdon clones mainly because of the availability of liners/casting sleeves. Kevin did do some research on both O-rings and snap rings and taking data directly from manufacturers handbooks was able to cut our motors so they basically fall together. Anyone who has struggled to squeeze a o-ring past a snap ring groove will understand. Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >I haven't gotten into making motors yet, but from everything I've read and > >heard, I'd say you're 100% correct. If/when I do start making my own motors [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > data directly from manufacturers handbooks was able to cut our motors > so they basically fall together. Oh, Oh!!! Please post the O-ring and snap ring data!!! >> The biggest/most expensive hurdle is hardware, we blatantly use Kosdon >> clones mainly because of the availability of liners/casting sleeves. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Please post the O-ring and snap ring data!!! We got the O-ring data from an outfit named Parker, and the snap ring stuff comes from TrueArc....don't hold me to that. Kevin got the catalogs/specs from the local O-ring distributor. It's a lot easier than it looks, ie ancient technology. If you want to seal/hold 1000psi in this type of metal use these 0s/snaps and cut the grooves this size. Cut the metal to these specs and they will go together easily and hold the pressure....and more. Our first attempt at a offset core single grain motor proved it. In our ignorance we didn't inhibit the forward grain surface and added RIO. WHOOSH, got 5K of altitude instead of the 2500 predicted. God knows what kind of pressure we got but the nozzle was badly cracked ie destroyed, but held together and both ends of the casing were visibly bulged, had a dickens of a time getting it out of the rocket. The snap rings ends were driven into the sides of the groove better than a 1/16th of an inch. It all stayed together. It was the closest we've ever come to a CATO, knock on wood. Remember this is a hobby to us, we aren't trying to set any performance records or push any envelops, just have fun and not trash our hardware. If you need any hard details get hold of Kevin thru the website, I'm just the cook. Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >> The biggest/most expensive hurdle is hardware, we blatantly use Kosdon > >> clones mainly because of the availability of liners/casting sleeves. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > catalogs/specs from the local O-ring distributor. It's a lot easier > than it looks, ie ancient technology. Something "Kosdon Enterprises" seemed to miss. > If you want to seal/hold 1000psi > in this type of metal use these 0s/snaps and cut the grooves this [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > sides of the groove better than a 1/16th of an inch. It all stayed > together. It was the closest we've ever come to a CATO, knock on wood. That case and the initial conditions should go into your museum. > Remember this is a hobby to us, we aren't trying to set any > performance records or push any envelops, just have fun and not trash [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >>>>The biggest/most expensive hurdle is hardware, we blatantly use Kosdon >>>>clones mainly because of the availability of liners/casting sleeves. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Something "Kosdon Enterprises" seemed to miss. What's your point? >>>>>The biggest/most expensive hurdle is hardware, we blatantly use Kosdon >>>>>clones mainly because of the availability of liners/casting sleeves. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >What's your point? The point is if it isn't right, it's someone else's fault. If it a good product, Jerry invented it. Phil wrote: << The point is if it isn't right, it's someone else's fault. If it a good product, Jerry invented it. >> ...and they stole the idea from, and he could do it even better. Etc, etc. > >> The biggest/most expensive hurdle is hardware, we blatantly use Kosdon > >> clones mainly because of the availability of liners/casting sleeves. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > sides of the groove better than a 1/16th of an inch. It all stayed > together. It was the closest we've ever come to a CATO, knock on wood. What fun! Good info... > Remember this is a hobby to us, we aren't trying to set any > performance records or push any envelops, just have fun and not trash > our hardware. Of course!!! It sounds great! > If you need any hard details get hold of Kevin thru the website, I'm > just the cook. Will do... Heh, heh... "Just the Cook"... having a great time, doing great things, AND modest to boot! > Heh, heh... "Just the Cook"... I don't cook! :) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv Visited your site... most entertaining and informative!!! Wow... ya'll are doing some really BIG motors!!! There are definite pluses to what you're doing... and I like your style! Good luck! Have bookmarked your site and have saved your post in the archives. > >> > I am not a fan of sugar (sorbitol) generally. > >> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Executive Chef > www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com >Visited your site... most entertaining and informative!!! Kyle, our webmaster, is one sharp fellar, got out of aerospace machining and into software engineering a couple of years ago. Web page design helps with tuition etc..Kevin does most of the photography and commentary. >Wow... ya'll are doing some really BIG motors!!! You guys ain't seen nothing yet, think 8". Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >Visited your site... most entertaining and informative!!! > > Kyle, our webmaster, is one sharp fellar, got out of aerospace > machining and into software engineering a couple of years ago. Web > page design helps with tuition etc..Kevin does most of the photography > and commentary. He's done a nice job... it's a rare guy who can move from Mechanical to Software... though I guess 'math is math'. > >Wow... ya'll are doing some really BIG motors!!! > > > You guys ain't seen nothing yet, think 8". No way... cuz... um... that would border on the insane, Jim. (Let me know if I can help!) ;) >> Kyle, our webmaster, is one sharp fellar, got out of aerospace >> machining and into software engineering a couple of years ago. Web [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >He's done a nice job... it's a rare guy who can move from Mechanical to >Software... though I guess 'math is math'. Smart enough to see his future... >> >Wow... ya'll are doing some really BIG motors!!! >> > >> You guys ain't seen nothing yet, think 8". > >No way... cuz... um... that would border on the insane, Jim. Naw....we just need to throw some money at the hardware, 6061 gets pricey at those sizes. I think we'll be able to use concrete form tube for liners, O-rings are gonna cost too. As far as we can tell these motors scale up nicely. >(Let me know if I can help!) We might need help picking the damn things up, the 3 grain 5" was about 35lbs. Jim Rutkowski Executive Chef www.TrailerTrashAerospace.com > >> Kyle, our webmaster, is one sharp fellar, got out of aerospace > >> machining and into software engineering a couple of years ago. Web [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > for liners, O-rings are gonna cost too. As far as we can tell these > motors scale up nicely. Onlinemetals sells 6061 in 8" od sizes. .25 inch wall, so you'd have to settle for a 7.5 inch motor. 3-4 feet would cost less than $180. We're building a 5" hybrid with onlinemetals parts... very good stuff... decent tolerences. > >(Let me know if I can help!) > > We might need help picking the damn things up, the 3 grain 5" was > about 35lbs. Dang! That's a lot of sweetener! Give me two weeks notice... love to see it! > > > Has anyone experimented with a > > > monolithic ejection charge device? By monolithic, I mean using a solid [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > with high gas and low temperature. APCP burns at about 5500F and BP > > around 1500F. So compromise is needed. > Poor Jerry. Hmmm.... Gary asks a very specific question: "Has anyone experimented with such a device?" Jerry answers that he has, gives a brief historical description of his prior work, and offers a bit of technical advice. Phil removes the "no flame zone" tag from the subject line to post something snarky with no purpose, it seems, but to try and annoy Jerry, and succeeds in doing that. Phil, I hope you're proud of yourself: I can see why people want to shun this newsgroup. You've just given us a real "textbook example" of what they're all complaining about. (The sad part is that you occasionally have something reasonable to say about rockets.) -dave w > Hmmm.... > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -dave w However, it is the jerry BS like below that causes the type of responses you are concerned about: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry expounded BS: Yes. I had such a device ready for certification in 1995 when I was beginnig to see consistent refusals from TRA. I also had a BP source motor ready for cert as described in prior threads. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry should post without the above self serving BS, (but one example), and I bet the "textbook examples" would be significantly reduced. Then on the other hand, I doubt you see that problem, as something within jerry's control. Fred Thanks you said it better than I. >> Hmmm.... >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >Fred > However, it is the jerry BS like below that causes the type of > responses you are concerned about: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > threads. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Except it is NOT BS and your claim that it is, is wholly without merit. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > However, it is the jerry BS like below that causes the type of > > responses you are concerned about: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jerry I must admit jerry, I have no factual knowledge, one way or another. However, based on your checkered past, well documented in official court documents and business dealings, lack of any prior information available on your most recent claims, and your general demeanor on RMR and other net media, BS is a somewhat kind term to describe the newest information you posted. Let's just call it an assertive expression of a judgment call on my part. Can you dig it??? (I have been listening to oldies but goodies as I worked on rockets today.) Fred >> > However, it is the jerry BS like below that causes the type of >> > responses you are concerned about: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Fred I took my dog for a walk by a prision. You shuold see what she did to a few of the deadbeat dads. I bet Jerry is happy that they are considering watering down the three time loser law in CA. << Jerry should post without the above self serving BS, (but one example), and I bet the "textbook examples" would be significantly reduced. >> Bingo! Complaining about responses to Jerry's BS posts is like complaining about flies in your living room, while ignoring the guy who keeps using your carpet and sofa as a toilet. The problem isn't the flies, it's the guy crapping all over your house. Dave W. wrote: << Gary asks a very specific question: "Has anyone experimented with such a device?" Jerry answers that he has, gives a brief historical description of his prior work, and offers a bit of technical advice. >> You left out the part where Jerry inserted his obligatory whining against TRA. Oh, and the complete lack of any evidence for his claim that he had such a device ready for certification. Out of three short paragraphs, only one paragraph was tech content. The rest was bragging and whining. > Dave W. wrote: > << Gary asks a very specific question: "Has anyone experimented with such a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You left out the part where Jerry inserted his obligatory whining against TRA. Or the accurate description of first hand experience. There is a REAL difference between your "view" and mine. Mine is FIRST HAND and does not rely on personal attack to convey the message. > Oh, and the complete lack of any evidence for his claim My witness account, exactly as I represented it was. > that he had such a > device ready for certification. Out of three short paragraphs, only one > paragraph was tech content. The rest was bragging and whining. It established the idea was practical. That has a lot of merit to an experimenter IMHO. More to the point if you had nothing technical to add to the thread, why didn't you just ignore it? Who appointed you net police to make sure things I say go unanswered. How about you email me a scan of the FAA waiver for the HPR flight you published in HPR magazine or openly admit you went waiverless. Step up. I have. I know the answers. Jerry "I see why you have a problem, Ray. You are an obsequious sycophant." - iz "It is much easier to apologize than it is to get permission." - Grace Murray Hopper SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > I know the answers. > > Jerry Answer me this. When are you going to pay me? > > I know the answers. > > > > Jerry > > Answer me this. When are you going to pay me? Never. I owe Dave Grayvis $0.00 (exactly). SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> I know the answers. >> >> Jerry > >Answer me this. When are you going to pay me? After he stops being a deadbeat dad. Don't hold your breath. Bring him east. I know a guy in Jersey that could 'talk' to him. > "It is much easier to apologize than it is to get permission." > - Grace Murray Hopper This is the mentality that's gotten you where you are. > > "It is much easier to apologize than it is to get permission." > > - Grace Murray Hopper > > This is the mentality that's gotten you where you are. And Ray Dunakin. I got where I was by asking for and receiving permission then using it once. Notable difference. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >>>"It is much easier to apologize than it is to get permission." >>>- Grace Murray Hopper [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jerry you asked the DOT if you could have permission to ship 200 pounds of rocket motors, as "model airplane parts"? you asked the "Powertech" partners for permission to defraud them, prior to defrauding them? jerry, while I have you attention, When specifically do you plan on paying Me the money that you owe Me? > you asked the "Powertech" partners for permission Absolutely. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >>you asked the "Powertech" partners for permission > > Absolutely. Permission for what? >> "It is much easier to apologize than it is to get permission." >> - Grace Murray Hopper > >This is the mentality that's gotten you where you are. If he had apologized, they would have let him back into TRA. WOnder if the apologized to the guy at DOT. > If he had apologized, they would have let him back into TRA. WOnder > if he apologized to the guy at DOT. BIG FINE irvine must pay his fine first.. Sooner is better.. Well I gota finish cleaning up the shop. Fred You have a problem with be starting a parallel thread with flames as a courtesy to those that don't like them? Wipe your face. People are NOT interested in Jerry turning every thread into the history of how he imagines he's right about everything, all evil is caused by TRA, blah blah. THat's what he said & no one cares. >> > > Has anyone experimented with a >> > > monolithic ejection charge device? By monolithic, I mean using a solid [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >-dave w > People are NOT interested in Jerry turning every thread into the > history of how he imagines he's right about everything, all evil is ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ > caused by TRA, blah blah. THat's what he said & no one cares. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bullshit. Jerry "Assuming the lawsuit is successful, you are correct. (I know - as usual)" - Phil Stein > >Hmmm.... > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > >-dave w SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> People are NOT interested in Jerry turning every thread into the >> history of how he imagines he's right about everything, all evil is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >usual)" >- Phil Stein as usual is what you say - not me. Once of these days misquoting people is goning to catch up to you. > >> People are NOT interested in Jerry turning every thread into the > >> history of how he imagines he's right about everything, all evil is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > as usual is what you say - not me. Once of these days misquoting > people is goning to catch up to you. It is NOT a misquote. Search the text string. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv > > > > Has anyone experimented with a > > > > monolithic ejection charge device? By monolithic, I mean using a solid [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > -dave w Hardly ever. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> (The sad part is that you occasionally >> have something reasonable to say about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Hardly ever. Here's something we can agree on. > >> (The sad part is that you occasionally > >> have something reasonable to say about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Here's something we can agree on. Which makes the vast majority of your posts truly off-topic. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> >> (The sad part is that you occasionally >> >> have something reasonable to say about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Which makes the vast majority of your posts truly off-topic. Your propaganda campaign is what draws responses. You stop baiting trolls & they won't have a reason to respond. Almost forgot - you're an a.shole. > >> >> (The sad part is that you occasionally > >> >> have something reasonable to say about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Almost forgot - you're an a.shole. Huh? What propoganda? For once, be honest and specific. I have no faith you can, much less will. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv >> >> >> (The sad part is that you occasionally >> >> >> have something reasonable to say about [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Jerry Just because you don't agree with an assertation, doesn't mean it wasn't made - unless things are different in Jerry World & no one else knows about it. > >> >> >> (The sad part is that you occasionally > >> >> >> have something reasonable to say about [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > wasn't made - unless things are different in Jerry World & no one else > knows about it. Thank you for proving my point by your actions. I appreciate it. Jerry "You are a complete painful rectal itch. I defer to having an "Irvine" the morning after I have dined on especially spicy food." - Jeff Barnes "Out of context quote." "It is mentally unchallenging as compared to addressing the actual issue or arguement. He may actually be that intellectually vacant. You should pity him." - Jerry Irvine On-topic comment. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv I woud be concerned that doing it this way would leak the gasses to quickly to provide adaquate pressure for ejection. I use 3f BP which has a less energetic release that 4f. You might want to look into using that or even something coarser. A CO2 release system might be a good alternative to BP but it might be premature to use since you are just starting HPR. >I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am >ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >(My timers fire a homemade ematch, so light/flashbulb issues are not a >concern.) gary: look for the thread I started about using micro maxx or 1/4-1/2a model rocket motors as an ejection charge device with internal piston.... shockie B) >I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am ground >testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of the actual [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > (My timers fire a homemade ematch, so light/flashbulb issues are not a > concern.) > I am slowly working my way towards HPR and hybrids. Right now, I am > ground testing simple timer based ejection/separation devices. Most of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > (My timers fire a homemade ematch, so light/flashbulb issues are not a > concern.) Well, on second thought, just forget it. I deal with with special education teenagers exhibiting emotional and behavioral problems all week at work. I don't have the energy or patience to deal with the same stuff here. SignatureGary Bolles summum jus, summa injuria est To contact me; bollesg at comcast dot net http://home.comcast.net/~bollesg/rockets/rockets.html Help make r.m.r. a No Flame Zone > While building a paper tube powder holder, I was struck by the > similarity to building a small motor. Has anyone experimented with a > monolithic ejection charge device? By monolithic, I mean using a solid > strand of pyrotechnic, like a tiny core burning propellant grain for > instance. I guess, after reading this over, I'm talking about using a > low thrust motor as an ejection PAD. I've seen several esigns that essentially use a PAD powered piston as the ejection device. One is Tom Pastricks F BG "Tapeworm", a large 4" booster with an internal parasite swing wing inside. The plan for this rocket is in the NIRA Glider Plans book available from NARTS. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. Ok, what is NFZ? Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. No Flame Zone... David Erbas-White >Ok, what is NFZ? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. > No Flame Zone (?) Signature...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me] "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is" -------------------------------------------------------------- > Ok, what is NFZ? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for > none. No Flame Zone aka No Flame Thread Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. > Ok, what is NFZ? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. >While building a paper tube powder holder, I was struck by the >similarity to building a small motor. Has anyone experimented with a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >grains, but I'm not certain that an ejection/separation device needs to >impart the steep impulse of, say, a BP charge. Combining the sugar motor thread and this thread, can I ask the stupid and obvious question: Could KN/SB used as an ejection charge, similar to the small motor the poster suggested above? Would it provide sufficient gas generation/impulse to blow off mid size nose cones? Would currently used ejection product igniters be able to light a KN/SB ejection charge? Could using KN/SB eliminate hassles about BP storage (ridiculous LEUP) requirements? Sorry, I am a lowmid BAR, and KN/SB if usable would seem to be an ideal help to going to first step HPR electronic ejection control, without the hassle of BP or Pyrodex, instead of motor ejection. a000 wrote: << Could KN/SB used as an ejection charge, similar to the small motor the poster suggested above? Would it provide sufficient gas generation/impulse to blow off mid size nose cones? Would currently used ejection product igniters be able to light a KN/SB ejection charge? Could using KN/SB eliminate hassles about BP storage (ridiculous LEUP) requirements? >> What hassles??? The only way you will ever be hassled about buying, storing or using BP is if you're stupid enough to tell the dealer that you are planning to use it in a rocket instead of a gun. And if that's not good enough for you, you can always use Pyrodex which has no restrictions at all. It's not difficult to use. yeah lets all not go around and tell the truth........no wonder the BATFE wants to regulate us so much... shockie B) > a000 wrote: > << Could KN/SB used as an ejection charge, similar to the small motor the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > difficult to > use. shock wrote: << yeah lets all not go around and tell the truth........no wonder the BATFE wants to regulate us so much... >> If you're referring to my comment about buying BP, you've missed the point. Everytime I've ever bought it, no one has ever asked me what I intended to use it for. Only an idiot would volunteer that information. There are no laws requiring you to give information that hasn't been requested. Furthermore, as I stated in my post, you can always switch to unregulated Pyrodex if keeping your mouth shut is too difficult for you. Pyrodex works just fine. There's no need to look for complicated alternative homebrew formulas to replace BP -- a suitable replacement already exists. > shock wrote: > << yeah lets all not go around and tell the truth........no wonder the BATFE [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Furthermore, as I stated in my post, you can always switch to unregulated > Pyrodex if keeping your mouth shut is too difficult for you. It must be. Look at his comment above. > Pyrodex works > just > fine. There's no need to look for complicated alternative homebrew formulas > to > replace BP -- a suitable replacement already exists. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv ray: since I have not yet purchased any BP from a gun shop,and eveidently you have, so they require you to fill out any state or federal forms to purchase this BP....Does it say on these forms Thatb I attest that I will be using this bP for recreational antique firearm usege? I'm just asking cuz I don't know.... I understand perfectly your "situtional ethics" reply Ray.......in your mind if you are not asked you don't bother to tell...but in that same mind, you know what it is to be used for, so you are creating a "thought crime"....... Lets see, by your reasoning, if you have HIV/AIDS, its NOT your responsibility to notify any potential partner that you have HIV..... since they didn't ask you directly and you didn't volunteer the info, you are not responsible for any consequences...like them getting HIV and dying.....Most courts who have had cases like this have held that the person is responsibile for their actions or inactions in this case.... both examples are examples of omission of facts......... I do beleive the feds will throw u in jail for either omission of facts or outright lying in any case....in either case you are being dishonest.... shockie B) > shock wrote: > << yeah lets all not go around and tell the truth........no wonder the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > formulas to > replace BP -- a suitable replacement already exists. > ray: since I |
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