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Model Forum / General / Rockets / October 2004Lessons Learned...
The last DARS Launch revealed.... 1. Air is our enemy. 2. Wind is pissed off air... a very unforgiving enemy. 3. Computers used for deployment need power switches and EEPROM's for configuration, screw the 'armed' switch... avoid computers that require anything otherwise. 4. Xform parachutes can be difficult to deploy, and like to spin. 5. David Shultz is a pretty big guy, and as RSO, he asks *all* the right questions... incessantly. 6. Americas teenagers are over weight. 7. Soft plowed dirt allows an 'I' powered 4 inch, 5lb rocket traveling at @ 400mph to bury itself about 12 inches, before folding like an accordion. 8. Mud is soft, but allows a very deep, sucking kind of core sample. 9. Shovels purchased as a 'joke' recovery device, WILL eventually be used. Buy a good one. 10. GPSFlight performs flawlessly to 4500 ft and at 12 gee... the landing (reported and downloaded to a palm GPS) into a cornfield 1658.22 feet was only off by 3 feet. 11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. 12. All the different parts of your rocket 'system' should be separated and 'shadow boxed'... portable soldering irons are a must.. Laptops don't last long on the battery... Hypertek M hybrids sound funny when they are launched... 13. When one rocket decides to 'core sample'... expect many more rockets to do likewise... It was an odd but entertaining launch... a kids honest john that petered out on the pad and deployed upon impact... a major zipper and many core sampled rockets... a curious thing, as the last launch went very well without catastrophe's. Does 'Luck' have anything to do with this hobby... I dunno. > The last DARS Launch revealed.... > > 1. Air is our enemy. > > 2. Wind is pissed off air... a very unforgiving enemy. Wind is a compatriot of rain, a sworn enemy of DARS. You managed to evade rain, so Wind stepped in. > > The last DARS Launch revealed.... > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wind is a compatriot of rain, a sworn enemy of DARS. You managed to > evade rain, so Wind stepped in. LOL! Great! > 9. Shovels purchased as a 'joke' recovery device, WILL eventually be used. > Buy a good one. Jerry's favorite recovery system :) > deployed upon impact... > Does 'Luck' have anything to do with this hobby... I dunno. :) Jerry  SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 << 4. Xform parachutes can be difficult to deploy, and like to spin. >> Yeah, they can be pretty tricky to deploy without tangling. If you can get them deployed right, they usually spin and swing less than a regular chute, in my experience. > << 4. Xform parachutes can be difficult to deploy, and like to spin. >> > > Yeah, they can be pretty tricky to deploy without tangling. If you can get > them > deployed right, they usually spin and swing less than a regular chute, in my > experience. They should be pressed by iron before each launch day and all shrouds properly tied before each use. A traditional canopy with a 15% spillhole is less labor. Crossforms are "better". Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > << 4. Xform parachutes can be difficult to deploy, and like to spin. >> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > They should be pressed by iron before each launch day and all shrouds > properly tied before each use. Saved in the archives... > > > << 4. Xform parachutes can be difficult to deploy, and like to spin. >> > > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Saved in the archives... Please pardon the tech posts. I just wanted to say that before Dave Grayvis revives from his absence folowing proof of his crime(s) being posted. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > << 4. Xform parachutes can be difficult to deploy, and like to spin. >> > > Yeah, they can be pretty tricky to deploy without tangling. If you can get them > deployed right, they usually spin and swing less than a regular chute, in my > experience. We launched the same xform on 5 different flights. Each recovery showed that the xform had 'crossed under' and in-between the shroud lines. Two flights it spun so much that it closed... even with a decent swivel. :( Care to describe how to deploy them correctly? Do they need a bag? Do I need to hang a weight from it and adjust the line length? How do you fold them? Ideal length of shroud lines vs. xform length? Help? mburggra wrote: << We launched the same xform on 5 different flights. Each recovery showed that the xform had 'crossed under' and in-between the shroud lines. >> Yep, that's the typical failure mode on X-forms. << Care to describe how to deploy them correctly? Do they need a bag? Do I need to hang a weight from it and adjust the line length? How do you fold them? Ideal length of shroud lines vs. xform length? >> I pretty much gave up on the darn things a long time ago... had too many rockets/cameras damaged by hard landings. However, I have two military surplus X chutes that I still use regularly, which have rarely tangled. I think the thing that sets them apart from the previous chutes is that they have a line sewn around the perimeter, connecting the corners of each "leg" of the X. My guess is that this reduces the chance of tangling. > > << 4. Xform parachutes can be difficult to deploy, and like to spin. >> > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Each recovery showed that the xform had 'crossed under' and in-between the > shroud lines. Tech post warning. Use a slide ring so the deployment is gradual. Steel ring, kinda loose slid to the canopy for folding and which slides down the lines as the canopy opens. > Two flights it spun so much that it closed... even with a decent swivel. > :( Crossforms are also manufacturing critical. I always used a professional parachute shop for those. > Care to describe how to deploy them correctly? > Do they need a bag? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Help? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > 5. David Shultz is a pretty big guy, and as RSO, he asks *all* the right > questions... incessantly. Exactly the job of an RSO: to uncover whatever you did wrong. I've long said that it's an art and that an RSO that asks 20 questions or 100 questions isn't doing the job any better than one that just makes sure the card is filled out and passes the rocket on through (and I've encountered WAY too many of those). A good RSO should only ask THREE questions. The key is knowing WHICH THREE QUESTIONS TO ASK! And that only comes with experience. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. > > 5. David Shultz is a pretty big guy, and as RSO, he asks *all* the right > > questions... incessantly. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > filled out and passes the rocket on through (and I've encountered WAY too > many of those). Yup. > A good RSO should only ask THREE questions. The key is > knowing WHICH THREE QUESTIONS TO ASK! And that only comes with experience. Exactly! This RSO asked just three questions... of course they were the ones we were most unsure of... but he was adamant that they be answered! Refreshing... if not a tad annoying. ... did I mention that this particular RSO is a pretty big guy? Gotta be 6 and a half feet or more! >> A good RSO should only ask THREE questions. The key is >> knowing WHICH THREE QUESTIONS TO ASK! And that only comes with experience. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ... did I mention that this particular RSO is a pretty big guy? Gotta be 6 > and a half feet or more! Yes, I know Dave. BTW, he's a previous winner of the Best MidWest Qualified Flight award. At NARAM-41 he had a record high egg splash in B ELD! Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. > >> A good RSO should only ask THREE questions. The key is > >> knowing WHICH THREE QUESTIONS TO ASK! And that only comes with experience. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > BTW, he's a previous winner of the Best MidWest Qualified Flight award. At > NARAM-41 he had a record high egg splash in B ELD! Heh, heh... Dave chronicled that particular trip to NARAM-41 in the Sept/Oct issue of Shroudlines... http://www.dars.org/Shroudlines/v8_N3.pdf "... then it hit the ground and splattered egg everywhere. Then Bob Kaplow came running over wanting to know who it belonged to. I carefully put my hand over my name tag and said 'I don't know who it belongs to'. But I was too slow and he caught my name. I had just qualified for a very special event at NARAM." Great stuff! Thanks! :) Up here in Northern Wisconsin those questions would be: 1. How many beers did you have while you built this rocket? 2. How many beers did you have before coming here? 3. Why do you have a beer can stuffed in the payload bay? j/k >> 5. David Shultz is a pretty big guy, and as RSO, he asks *all* the right >> questions... incessantly. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for > none. > Up here in Northern Wisconsin those questions would be: > > 1. How many beers did you have while you built this rocket? 2 > 2. How many beers did you have before coming here? 0 > 3. Why do you have a beer can stuffed in the payload bay? Beerloft competition. > > ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for > > none. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Up here in Northern Wisconsin those questions would be: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 3. Why do you have a beer can stuffed in the payload bay? 4. What kind of cheese did you use for wadding? Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. >11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. who flew the tree? >>11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. > > who flew the tree? Scott Dixon. Yes, there is a story here... Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. > >>11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. > > > > who flew the tree? > > Scott Dixon. Yes, there is a story here... At ane early RRS or PRS launch someone flew a telephone pole too. Kinda a tree. Jerry >"Impeach the TRA BoD" > ... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for > none. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Scott Dixon. One of the folks banned at TRA TMT BTW. Something about a video :) Estes is not banned :) NCR is not banned :) No NDA keeping me from chatting about them either. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. >> >> who flew the tree? > >Scott Dixon. Yes, there is a story here... And he bent a steel I beam "test fixture", and blew out some factory windows, but maybe it's just a story... Alan > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >... One nation under survielence, divisive, with liberty and justice for none. > >>>11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Alan We? Start with that part of the story :) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > >>>11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. > > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Start with that part of the story :) Yes! I want to hear the story too! >>>11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. >> >> who flew the tree? > >Scott Dixon. Yes, there is a story here... Before he went into auto racing....? <ducking> Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East >>Scott Dixon. Yes, there is a story here... > > Before he went into auto racing....? It never even occured to me that the IRL driver had the same name as the guy from Vulcan. IIRC I met the latter back in 1975 or 1976 in Ft Wayne. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > >>11. Port-a-Potties are good.... but trees are more fun. > > > > who flew the tree? > > Scott Dixon. Yes, there is a story here... Tell it! Tell it! Or at least give us a little more info... ;) >> In article <10n7v904a7rhb1@corp.supernews.com>, Glen Overby > <coreSPAMsample@charter.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Or at least give us a little more info... If you want the whole story, see me in person. Olive trees are very valuable. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > >> In article <10n7v904a7rhb1@corp.supernews.com>, Glen Overby > > <coreSPAMsample@charter.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Olive trees are very valuable. Telephone poles and football stars are very durable. > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > >> In article <10n7v904a7rhb1@corp.supernews.com>, Glen Overby > > > <coreSPAMsample@charter.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Telephone poles and football stars are very durable. Hmmm... more info... thanks! > "Jerry Irvine" <01rocket@gte.net> wrote in message > > > > Telephone poles and football stars are very durable. > > Hmmm... more info... thanks! Oh, I've got a great answer for this one! www.v-serv.com/usr/therunningman.htm Here's Jim Brown (the football star) http://www.v-serv.com/usr/fx/RunningMan05.jpg As for telephone poles, search google for MTA, Irvine, telephone and zinc-sulfur. That should get you pretty close. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >As for telephone poles, search google for MTA, Irvine, telephone and >zinc-sulfur. That should get you pretty close. Here you go: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=MTA%20Irvine%20telephone%20zinc%20sulfur&num=2 0&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wg - Rick "Playing it close to the vest" Dickinson Signature"Has anyone got a reference cynic? I think I need to recalibrate myself." -- James Riden, in the S.D.M. > >As for telephone poles, search google for MTA, Irvine, telephone and > >zinc-sulfur. That should get you pretty close. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Rick "Playing it close to the vest" Dickinson I can't find it either. I must have posted it to arocket. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > Telephone poles and football stars are very durable. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > As for telephone poles, search google for MTA, Irvine, telephone and > zinc-sulfur. That should get you pretty close. You're fantasitc! :) > > > > Telephone poles and football stars are very durable. > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You're fantasitc! > :) One man's great is another man's fantastic. Jerry "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will one day dominate this business. You'll notice they never attack his motors. I say send your dollars to U.S. Rockets and support the Chicken sh.t Reduction Act of 97." - Breck Stapleton "Rockets are an excellent way to get an education. I wish someone, way back when, had stuck a rocket in my hand and said this is why you need algebra, geometry and physics. Then marched me outside, launched the rocket and set the hook. I guess there is a time and place for everything." - Breck Stapleton Rent "The Running Man". SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > > > Telephone poles and football stars are very durable. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Reduction Act of 97." > - Breck Stapleton Proven wrong by decertification. > "Rockets are an excellent way to get an education. I wish someone, way > back when, had stuck a rocket in my hand and said this is why you need [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Rent "The Running Man". SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will one > > day dominate this business. You'll notice they never attack his motors. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Proven wrong by decertification. Non Sequitur... confused... ... what do you mean? > > > "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will one > > > day dominate this business. You'll notice they never attack his motors. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Non Sequitur... confused... > ... what do you mean? Having read this rmr post Rogers and Kelly simply decertified the USR motors. All of them. With no rule that allows that. The decert date published on the Tripoli website was 11-97. It was first pubished on the website in 3-98. That was the first time anybody heard about the decert. The manfacturer was NEVER formally notified by TRA. Seriously. Jerry "HOWEVER, when organizations are involved in the regulation of a sport/hobby/etc activity, it seems to me, personally, that there ought to be at least the same level of openness and oversight as the government itself is required to demonstrate (which is still not enough, IMHO, but certainly more than none). The business of certifying motors ought to be very public, with lots of very public procedures, all auditable and audited. The development of safety codes ought to be very public, and the organization should be above even the appearance of settling for less than the safety codes require. The rules by which individuals are certified to purchase motors and fly them should be very very clear, and consistently applied." -Ted Cochran SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > > "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will one > > > > day dominate this business. You'll notice they never attack his motors. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jerry Sour grapes, you left on the vine to rot.. >>>>"In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will one >>>>day dominate this business. You'll notice they never attack his motors. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jerry jerry, If no one knows who the manufacturer is, how can he/she/they be notified? Besides, your motors were decertified because it was discovered that you were backdating new motors to "grandfather" them. > Besides, your motors were decertified because it was discovered that you > were backdating new motors to "grandfather" them. That's funny. Ray says he is absolutely convinced it is because the rules changed and they were no longer compliant. The manufacturer was not notified of either of these "scenarios". Makes it harder to pin TRA down on their broken words, I guess. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>Besides, your motors were decertified because it was discovered that you >>were backdating new motors to "grandfather" them. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jerry It's difficult, if not impossible, to contact a manufacturer, who's identity is secret. And whenever there is trouble, jerry disappears into thin air. If you are not the manufacturer, then it's NONE of your business. DaveGrayvis wrote: > Besides, your motors were decertified because it > was discovered that you were backdating new > motors to "grandfather" them. Jerry replied: << That's funny. Ray says he is absolutely convinced it is because the rules changed and they were no longer compliant. >> That's correct. But there's a grace period for decertified motors, and you were caught backdating new stock. So your grace period was pulled too. > DaveGrayvis wrote: > > Besides, your motors were decertified because it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > were > caught backdating new stock. So your grace period was pulled too. What is your source of information? I want to see it. For the first time. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > If you are not the manufacturer, then it's NONE of your business. Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual manufacturer"? -dave w >>If you are not the manufacturer, then it's NONE of your business. > > Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier > is the "actual manufacturer"? > > -dave w jerry said "manufacturer notification". jerry says he's not the manufacturer. Stop trying to obfuscate for jerry. Dave W. wrote: << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual manufacturer"? >> It's to ensure that the actual manufacturer really exists, and isn't just a sham concocted by frauds trying to get around the rules. > Dave W. wrote: > << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual > manufacturer"? >> > > It's to ensure that the actual manufacturer really exists, and isn't just a > sham concocted by frauds trying to get around the rules. OK, suppose I were to go to a manufacturer of "industrial" motors and put in a bulk order for a pallet-load of some 1-1/8" diameter motors (spec: average thrust 36 lb.; duration 2 sec.), and then attempt to offer them from certification under my own brand (handling distribution to the retail chain myself so the "actual manufacturer" only has to deal with them on a bulk batch basis) as "29mm H160 hobby motors from 'Dave's Propulsion Dynamics'"... why would this be a situation that the associations need to oppose? (This appears to be exactly what the TMT "basic policies" forbid, by way of the "actual manufacturer" rule) Would that make 'Dave's Propulsion Dynamics' a "sham" because it wasn't "the actual company" that manufactured the motors?? -dave w Dave W. wrote: << OK, suppose I were to go to a manufacturer of "industrial" motors and put in a bulk order for a pallet-load of some 1-1/8" diameter motors (spec: average thrust 36 lb.; duration 2 sec.), and then attempt to offer them from certification under my own brand (handling distribution to the retail chain myself so the "actual manufacturer" only has to deal with them on a bulk batch basis) as "29mm H160 hobby motors from 'Dave's Propulsion Dynamics'"...>> If the manufacturer wants your business, he'll cooperate with the cert process. If he doesn't want you business enough to do that simple thing, then you should find another manufacturer. << ...why would this be a situation that the associations need to oppose? (This appears to be exactly what the TMT "basic policies" forbid, by way of the "actual manufacturer rule)>> The cert requirements neither oppose it, nor forbid it. They simply require that the manufacturer submit the motors and paperwork. << Would that make 'Dave's Propulsion Dynamics' a "sham" because it wasn't "the actual company" that manufactured the motors?? >> No, nor would your supplier be a sham -- if you actually did what you've described above. Of course, if the manufacturer refuses to cooperate, there's no way for anyone to know that it's _not_ a sham or scam. Who knows, maybe you made the motors yourself in your kitchen, and claimed they were made by "XYZ Motor Co." in order to avoid getting the appropriate manufacturing permits (and/or to hide income). > Dave W. wrote: > << OK, suppose I were to go to a manufacturer of "industrial" motors and put [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The cert requirements neither oppose it, nor forbid it. They simply require > that the manufacturer submit the motors and paperwork. They (TRA) require paperwork well beyond what the government and local authorities require. That is the point. Only hobby zealots would comply with that so only hobby zealots are motor manufacturers right now. All "overcomplying" and ATTRACTING ATF oversight unnecessarilym for example getting LEMP's for EXEMPT sport motors (all styles). Jerry I told you so. > << Would that make 'Dave's Propulsion Dynamics' a "sham" because it wasn't > "the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Motor Co." in order to avoid getting the appropriate manufacturing permits > (and/or to hide income). SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> Dave W. wrote: >> << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >-dave w They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process many times. Then you submit the motors for testing. That's it. > >> Dave W. wrote: > >> << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process > many times. Then you submit the motors for testing. That's it. Which cannot be done if the manufacturer INSISTS on folowing the law and exercising their rights to ATF exemptions. TRA excludes FULLY LEGALLY compliant manufacturers. That is the exact point. Jerry But you keep changing the subject. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>Dave W. wrote: >>>><< Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > TRA excludes FULLY LEGALLY compliant manufacturers. No such company exists. >> >> Dave W. wrote: >> >> << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >and over and over and over and over and over and over >and over and over and over and over and over and over Do you have anything from ATF that says you do not need a LEMP to manufacture APCP. It seems unlikely since AP is on their hit list. TRA is not doing anything illegal. They are free to establish whatever requirements they want. You are free to make all the motors you want & ship them however you want. That doesn't mean TRA will apporve them or change requirements for you. It also doesn't mean that you won't get a BIG FINE. > Do you have anything from ATF that says you do not need a LEMP to > manufacture APCP. It seems unlikely since AP is on their hit list. It's called 27CFR55.141... "this Part shall not apply with respect to...:" There is no requirement for a manufacturer license other than that imposed in that Part (i.e., 27CFR part 55, "Commerce in Explosives"), from which Propellant Actuated Devices are exempt. What do you want? The head of the BATF to personally "say uncle"? -dave w > > Do you have anything from ATF that says you do not need a LEMP to > > manufacture APCP. It seems unlikely since AP is on their hit list. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -dave w ROFL! SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or >> get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >That is the exact point. Let me see if I got this straight. The ATF requires a certain set of rules for manufacturing motors. The TRA(governing body) adds to those rules to be considered a 'certified' manufacturer to sell their product. Your manufacturer refuses to(or can't) follow the TRA imposed rules. I can see companies trying to effect changes in the rules - that may be a good thing, and people could support it. But, what good does it do to simply bitch about it? I've been wondering that if you(or your manufacturer) followed the TRA rules, would you be able to get (re-)certified? Recent discussions indicate probably yes. I'll assume a couple of things here... If the TRA changed its mind, or if all the currently certified makers protested, then things would change. There are apparently several companies who agree to follow TRA rules, so it soesn't seem likely that the TRA would be forced to cave in. People who are already profiting aren't going to jeopardize that. The manufacturers who are currently certfied would be stupid to stop following the TRA rules and lose all their business, so there won't likely be a 'boycott'(for lack of a better term). This is what I've gathered from all the petty back-and-forth bickering here... Seems to me(given the above assumptions) your motor manufacturer(or *any* manufacturer) has two choices: 1. Meet the TRA requirements, get certified, make a bunch of money. 2. Shut the f.ck up(as you are so fond of saying). I'm sure that some of you who are deeply involved with this will say that it's not that easy, there's things behind the scenes that all of us don't know about. I'll allow that could be the case. But from the outside it looks childish, and I don't see how you're going to rally more people to your cause, or to the hobby in general... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East >>>They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or >>>get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Eldred TRA's only requirement, is that the "manufacturer" be fully, legally compliant, FED/State/County/City. Other than that, You post was right on! > > In article <01rocket-66B2A5.06433024102004@corp.supernews.com>, Jerry > > Irvine [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Other than that, You post was right on! You are so, "me too". No original thought. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > >> They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or > >> get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > for > manufacturing motors. In this case, none. > The TRA(governing body) adds to those rules to be > considered a 'certified' manufacturer to sell their product. Your > manufacturer > refuses to(or can't) follow the TRA imposed rules. Tried complying and they refused (DOT-EX and ATF-LEMP), so now EACH OEM refuses to get an unneeded permit to appease TRA knowing in advance it will simply be refused the moment they learn they are "Jerry-designed" motors. Nobody is hiding that and everybody certifying motors immediately recognize them. > I can see companies > trying > to effect changes in the rules - that may be a good thing, and people could > support it. But, what good does it do to simply bitch about it? The formal proposals have been made many times, sometimes even with BOD member support. They have always been refused basicly as a means to make life more difficult for Jerry. But they have quite a bit of collateral damage by taking out 70% of the market, the OEM's capital investment and a bunch of other bad consequences. > I've been > wondering that if you(or your manufacturer) followed the TRA rules, would you > be able to get (re-)certified? Recent discussions indicate probably yes. I have not seen those discussions, and every proposal explicitly suggested only paperwork in my name personally would be considered. NEVER gonna happen. Also not required under either TRA authored NFPA or TRA superset rules. > I'll assume a couple of things here... > If the TRA changed its mind, or if all the currently certified makers > protested, then things would change. There are apparently several companies > who agree to follow TRA rules, SPECIFICALLY ATF logging HPR motors. Just to be clear, that means ATF in, ATF out, so ONLY ATF licensed folks are potential BUYING customers. ONLY. > so it soesn't seem likely that the TRA would > be > forced to cave in. They are surprisingly stubborn. Look at the HPR magazine handling for hard long-term evidence of behavior. Now apply it to ATF, vendors, certifications, regulatory authoring, member removals, etc. Bad news. > People who are already profiting aren't going to > jeopardize [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the > petty back-and-forth bickering here... Protecting at all cost the last few (2500) certified users instead of going after the prior 20,000. Pretty darn short sighted, don't you think? Oh and if you fixate on challenging 20,000, same arguement applies to 2,000, 4,000, 6,000 too. > Seems to me(given the above assumptions) your motor manufacturer(or *any* > manufacturer) has two choices: > 1. Meet the TRA requirements, get certified, make a bunch of money. Become a bit player in a 2500 person market worldwide. > 2. Shut the f.ck up(as you are so fond of saying). Where's choice #3? #4? The TRA rules are broken. That is the point. I want to change them in a way that would get 10 to 12 BOD votes per suggestion. > I'm sure that some of you who are deeply involved with this will say that > it's > not that easy, there's things behind the scenes that all of us don't know > about. There's an understatement. Club leader malfeasance and an intense need to keep it secret. > I'll allow that could be the case. But from the outside it looks > childish, and I don't see how you're going to rally more people to your > cause, > or to the hobby in general... > > Eldred I am voting with my feet and my actions. The trolls and TRA are trying to frustrate as best they can, the "narc" to DOT being a prime example. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or >>>>get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > > Jerry Poor jerry. Jerry wrote: << Tried complying and they refused (DOT-EX and ATF-LEMP), so now EACH OEM refuses to get an unneeded permit to appease TRA...>> Who are these alleged manufacturers, and how can we contact them? << The formal proposals have been made many times, sometimes even with BOD member support. They have always been refused...>> Your self-serving proposals were rejected. That's life -- get over it. << ...basicly as a means to make life more difficult for Jerry. >> Boohoo. Poor Jerry. << I have not seen those discussions, and every proposal explicitly suggested only paperwork in my name personally would be considered. NEVER gonna happen.>> If you're not willing to meet the requirements, that's your choice. Quit whining about it. << SPECIFICALLY ATF logging HPR motors. Just to be clear, that means ATF in, ATF out, so ONLY ATF licensed folks are potential BUYING customers. >> You'll never change ATF policy by endlessly attacking TRA. << Protecting at all cost the last few (2500) certified users instead of going after the prior 20,000. Pretty darn short sighted, don't you think? >> Your plan (letting Jerry make/sell/ship motors without legal permits, thus incurring the wrath of ATF, DOT, NFPA etc.) is much more short-sighted. << The TRA rules are broken. That is the point. I want to change them in a way that would get 10 to 12 BOD votes per suggestion. >> No one cares what you want, Jerry. We all know it's really just about Jerry getting to do what Jerry wants, for Jerry's benefit. Besides, you can't change ATF or DOT policies by changing TRA rules. << I am voting with my feet and my actions. The trolls and TRA are tryin to frustrate as best they can, the "narc" to DOT being a prime example. >> Your $40k fine to the DOT is all the proof anyone needs as to how effective your methods are in changing government regulation of rocketry. > Jerry wrote: > << Tried complying and they refused (DOT-EX and ATF-LEMP), so now EACH OEM [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Your $40k fine to the DOT is all the proof anyone needs as to how effective > your methods are in changing government regulation of rocketry. This proves you are not even listening. But you are belching the same monologue. Probably drowns out any thoughts going in. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 ><< The formal proposals have been made many times, sometimes even with BOD >member support. They have always been refused...>> > >Your self-serving proposals were rejected. That's life -- get over it. MOST business owners(or potential owners) are self-serving to a certain degree. Why have a business otherwise? Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > ><< The formal proposals have been made many times, sometimes even with BOD > >member support. They have always been refused...>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Eldred Ray does not endorse that and infers evil intent from the mere fact having an interest in a growing and diverse hobby is something worth working for. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Lessons learned? Tripoli had to change and add rules to substantially reduce (kill) HPR. Tripoli had to give its magazine to an INSIDER, then tolerate his bullshit for 14 years straight to be in THIS bad of a position. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Lessons learned? > > Tripoli had to change and add rules to substantially reduce (kill) HPR. > > Tripoli had to give its magazine to an INSIDER, then tolerate his > bullshit for 14 years straight to be in THIS bad of a position. Should they have given you the magazine? Aren't you an insider? We've all put up with your bullshit for 14 years straight, what's the difference? > > Lessons learned? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Should they have given you the magazine? Aren't you an insider? I was not on the BOD at the time, so no I was not an insider. I had prior experience. Bruce did not (and has shown it year after year since). I was not proposing to BUY it (never even occured to me), but run it for TRA as intended in the bylaws. That annoying little document. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Eldred wrote: << MOST business owners(or potential owners) are self-serving to a certain degree. Why have a business otherwise? >> Maybe so, but at least most business owners realize they can't always get their way and don't spend 10-15 years badmouthing everyone about it when they don't. > Eldred wrote: > << MOST business owners(or potential owners) are self-serving to a certain [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > way and don't spend 10-15 years badmouthing everyone about it when they > don't. Apparantly those that do, are proven right time after time. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> Let me see if I got this straight. The ATF requires a certain set of rules >> for >> manufacturing motors. > > In this case, none. Wrong. The PAD exemption is for the USER, not the MANUFACTURER. Except of course for hybrid motors. So why don't you come out with a USR hybrid. neither NAR nor TRA could use paperwork as an excuse to refuse to certify it. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > >> Let me see if I got this straight. The ATF requires a certain set of > >> rules [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Wrong. The PAD exemption is for the USER, not the MANUFACTURER. False, sir. Path: nwrddc03.gnilink.net!cyclone2.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.ne t!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!68-1 71-154-50.vnnyca.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail From: Rick Dickinson <rtd@notesguy.com> Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets Subject: Re: Jerry Irvine still not selling motors???? Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:53:43 -0700 Organization: Dickinson Consulting Services Lines: 26 Message-ID: <o283901uao0jq1c7jtalrkinsgips4195o@4ax.com> References: <3cf35d8b.0404280455.6c0d2eae@posting.google.com> <01rocket-61785F.10181228042004@news.verizon.net> <vMYjc.35013$hR1.34273@fe2.texas.rr.com> <mpq1901qtch7pqlkkabn133ocr4tjc664f@4ax.com> <qkf2909s7qbolhub0bk1t2an4ngldjunht@4ax.com> <Ichkc.289$uE4.19358@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68-171-154-50.vnnyca.adelphia.net (68.171.154.50) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1083286423 15345631 I 68.171.154.50 ([189648]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Xref: cyclone1.gnilink.net rec.models.rockets:230292 X-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 20:53:45 EDT (nwrddc03.gnilink.net) On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:36:55 -0700, "AZ Woody" <Reply@here.not.email> wrote: >Now, we got people starting to claim that the manufacturer of unassembled >parts used to later create a "fully assembled rocket motor" are covered... Actually, the PAD exemption specifically exempts PADs from "this part", referring to 27 CFR Part 55 (now renumbered to part 555), which is the term for the section of the law that contains the PAD exemption, and the storage, permitting, and other regulations concerning explosives. By exempting PADs from "this part" using verbiage within "Part 555" (nee 55), PADs are exempt from *all* of the regulations therein. Note: this is *including* the regulations requiring permits for manufacturers and dealers. Do a web search for "27 CFR 55" and read it yourself if you don't beleive me. - Rick "Use the Source, Luke" Dickinson Signature"The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George W. Bush (Washington DC, Oct 27 2003) > Except of course for hybrid motors. > > So why don't you come out with a USR hybrid. neither NAR nor TRA could use > paperwork as an excuse to refuse to certify it. They used other excuses. I tried that too, remember?? > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>Let me see if I got this straight. The ATF requires a certain set of >>>>rules [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - Rick "Use the Source, Luke" Dickinson What does your ATF agent say? >>>Let me see if I got this straight. The ATF requires a certain set of rules >>>for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So why don't you come out with a USR hybrid. neither NAR nor TRA could use > paperwork as an excuse to refuse to certify it. TRA and NAR won't agree to pay shipping. So we're back to square one. Bob K. wrote: << So why don't you come out with a USR hybrid. neither NAR nor TRA could use paperwork as an excuse to refuse to certify it. >> Jerry supposedly tried that, but never formally submitted the motors, just tried to hand them off to Sue on her vacation. BTW, he'd still have to meet the other cert requirements. > Bob K. wrote: > << So why don't you come out with a USR hybrid. neither NAR nor TRA could use > paperwork as an excuse to refuse to certify it. >> > > Jerry supposedly tried that, but never formally submitted the motors, Yes I did and yet another direct lie by Ray Dunakin. > just > tried to hand them off to Sue on her vacation. Huh? To the TMT chair at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. Listen very, very carefully. Turn off the monologue. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. at LDRS just like OTHER FOLKS DID. > BTW, he'd still have to meet > the > other cert requirements. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>Bob K. wrote: >><< So why don't you come out with a USR hybrid. neither NAR nor TRA could use [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>the >>other cert requirements. What other motor manufacturers handed off their product to sue M. for transport to TMT? > What other motor manufacturers handed off their product to sue M. for > transport to TMT? Cesaroni, for one. (I think it was at Lucerne rather than LDRS.) There was a picture posted (ROC website perhaps?) of Anthony giving Sue the first box of test samples. -dave w > > What other motor manufacturers handed off their product to sue M. for > > transport to TMT? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -dave w Yes and if so, as a recognized "legal" manufacture and hazmat shipper; something "BIG FINE irvine" could not and still can't produce.. Fred > > > What other motor manufacturers handed off their product to sue M. for > > > transport to TMT? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fred At LDRS with Sue, USR was selling motors and discharging CERTIFIED motors at that launch. So a "recognized" manufacturer made that submission. That kills that falsified excuse. I bet you repeat it anyway! Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > At LDRS with Sue, USR was selling motors and discharging CERTIFIED > motors at that launch. So a "recognized" manufacturer made that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jerry For the record. jerry, are you now claiming to be, in fact, the manufacturer of usr motors? Did you pay your shipping and handling fee? > > At LDRS with Sue, USR was selling motors and discharging CERTIFIED > > motors at that launch. So a "recognized" manufacturer made that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Did you pay your shipping and handling fee? As you know TRA does not do the OEM thing. They either recognize the applicant or they do not. I was recognized. There is no rule for "derecognition". I was recognized LONG before Powertech existed. I submitted HYBRIDS!! None of that is inconsistent with my prior statements. What is inconsistent is TRA treatment of me from time to time. Jerry You are consistent. You are evil. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > > What other motor manufacturers handed off their product to sue M. for > > > > transport to TMT? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Jerry "LEGAL" That you were not then, or ever...... << What other motor manufacturers handed off their product to sue M. for transport to TMT? >> And specifically at that particular launch, when she was on vacation and had only just then been given the job of TMT chair? > The PAD exemption is for the USER, not the MANUFACTURER. Wrong, Bob - read your code: the PAD exemption applies to the entirety of 27CFR part 55 "Commerce In Explosives", wherein is set forth not only the requirement for user permits but also the requirements for things like magazine storage and manufacturer licensing... -dave w >> The TRA(governing body) adds to those rules to be >> considered a 'certified' manufacturer to sell their product. Your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >motors. Nobody is hiding that and everybody certifying motors >immediately recognize them. So the TRA, and everyone in it, just wants to pick on YOU? Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that. If that WAS the case, you have grounds for discrimination that a lawyer would think was a slam-dunk. Fill out the paperwork, build the motors, and get certified already... >> I can see companies >> trying [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >suggested only paperwork in my name personally would be considered. >NEVER gonna happen. Which means you choose NOT to. >Also not required under either TRA authored NFPA or >TRA superset rules. This doesn't make sense. Either they have rules, or they don't. Which is it? <snip> >> so it soesn't seem likely that the TRA would >> be [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Oh and if you fixate on challenging 20,000, same arguement applies to >2,000, 4,000, 6,000 too. I didn't 'fixate' on *any* number. You're the one throwing out numbers. From what I've seen, the higher power stuff can be pretty expensive. So, yeah, I think the vendors are protecting as much of their profit as they can. >> Seems to me(given the above assumptions) your motor manufacturer(or *any* >> manufacturer) has two choices: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >#4? You won't follow the rules as written and put your name on the forms. Your manufacturers won't put their names on the forms, because you've convinced them that any 'Jerry' engine won't get certified. The 'powers that be' refuse your attempts to change the rules. You've apparently pissed off a lot of people, and gotten into name-calling matches over Usenet. Um, what other choices are left? I heard a quote one time: "people judge the unknown and the unseen by the known and the seen. Based on the stuff that flies back and forth here, people would have a hard time believing that you're adding anything to the hobby. That statement would also go towards 3 or 4 others here, so don't think I'm singling you out. >The TRA rules are broken. That is the point. I want to change them in a >way that would get 10 to 12 BOD votes per suggestion. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Club leader malfeasance and an intense need to keep it secret. Secret? You said: >Tried complying and they refused (DOT-EX and ATF-LEMP), so now EACH OEM >refuses to get an unneeded permit to appease TRA knowing in advance it >will simply be refused the moment they learn they are "Jerry-designed" >motors. Nobody is hiding that and everybody certifying motors >immediately recognize them. and >The formal proposals have been made many times, sometimes even with BOD >member support. They have always been refused basicly as a means to make >life more difficult for Jerry. Doesn't sound too secret to me... So, which is it? But if you truly believe that everyone is against you, then you don't need to make any more comments about it. And you also don't need to respond to someone *else's* comments about it. After all, you can't win, right? Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >> The TRA(governing body) adds to those rules to be > >> considered a 'certified' manufacturer to sell their product. Your [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a > hard time believing that. That is exactly what they rely on. It is called suspended disbelief. >If that WAS the case, you have grounds for > discrimination that a lawyer would think was a slam-dunk. For only a mere $100,000 retainer. > Fill out the > paperwork, build the motors, and get certified already... Let's be very clear. When I was already approved, motors submitted started simply disappearing without being tested and showed up at Las Vegas sport launches (Blazanin's club) and other places. When I went to the final LDRS USR motors were allowed at I submitted motors for cert exactly as I have done many times before. They were refused. No paperwork excuses were given. Even prior to that submissions I made to Rogers personally at Black Rock were also declined. I offered to do whatever it takes. No suggestions were offered. Then just to see if the blackball was total, motors were submitted by 4 other OEM's for the benefit of companies other than USR (they were merely designed by me), and all of those were rejected. All with DOT and ATF paperwork. No I know a screw job when I see it. Now that the HPR market has been shrunk to 2500 certified users worldwide it is not even worth investing into anymore. Too bad too. Oh well. There's always Barbie collecting. There's serious money in that. > >> I can see companies > >> trying [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > This doesn't make sense. Either they have rules, or they don't. Which is > it? They have rules they follow They have rules they sometimes do not follow They have non-rules they sometimes add for the benefit of certain folks. They have no consistency of which one to expect at any moment in time. > <snip> > >> so it soesn't seem likely that the TRA would [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > You won't follow the rules as written and put your name on the forms. Your > manufacturers won't put their names on the forms, Both statements are false. As I have said, several have and been sumarily rejected on the basis of blackball and nothing to do with the paperwork, motors or rules themselves. Even you ought to be able to read the log of rmr and see dozens of examples of that. It happened a lot. > because you've convinced > them [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > singling > you out. > >The TRA rules are broken. That is the point. I want to change them in a > >way that would get 10 to 12 BOD votes per suggestion. > >> I'm sure that some of you who are deeply involved with this will say that > >> it's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Doesn't sound too secret to me... So, which is it? Club leader malfeasance and an intense need to keep it secret. > But if you truly believe that everyone is against you, Nope. Only about 6 folks and consistently for over 14 years now. Gee, that is when Teeling got his judgement too. What a coincidence. Aerotech was not banned after it filed BK, killed one guy and maimed another in an industrial accident. At least we have our priorities straight, eh? > then you don't need to > make any more comments about it. And you also don't need to respond to > someone > *else's* comments about it. After all, you can't win, right? > > Eldred Eldred, take some time and simply read big portions of the log on these subjects. It will be educational indeed. It's all there. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>The TRA(governing body) adds to those rules to be >>>>considered a 'certified' manufacturer to sell their product. Your [quoted text clipped - 212 lines] > > Jerry Boo Hoo, poor jerry. Jerry wrote: << When I went to the final LDRS USR motors were allowed at I submitted motors for cert exactly as I have done many times before. They were refused. No paperwork excuses were given. >> TRA has no obligation to accept your motors at LDRS or any other launch, just so you can avoid shipping them. Submit your motors through regular channels. << Then just to see if the blackball was total, motors were submitted by 4 other OEM's for the benefit of companies other than USR (they were merely designed by me), and all of those were rejected.>> Duh. You can't submit motors for other companies. They have to submit their own motors. You know that. BTW, which companies were they, and why didn't they submit their motors themselves, through proper channels? << No I know a screw job when I see it. >> And I know BS when I smell it. > Jerry wrote: > << When I went to the final LDRS USR motors were allowed at I submitted [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > TRA has no obligation to accept your motors at LDRS or any other launch, just > so you can avoid shipping them. Submit your motors through regular channels. Let's be clear. Those WERE regular channels at the time. If you say or infer otherwise you would be lying (as usual). And to add yet another fact, advance arrangements were indeed made as well. > << Then just to see if the blackball was total, motors were submitted by 4 > other OEM's for the benefit of companies other than USR (they were merely [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > motors. You know that. BTW, which companies were they, and why didn't they > submit their motors themselves, through proper channels? Let's be clear. Those WERE regular channels at the time. If you say or infer otherwise you would be lying (as usual). And to add yet another fact, advance arrangements were indeed made as well. > << No I know a screw job when I see it. >> > > And I know BS when I smell it. YousmellyourselfRay. Remember I was an APPROVED manufacturer at the time of these incidents. What I don't understand, since you are so blindly apologetic of TRA anyway, why not just admit I was being UNFAIRLY blackballed, and just say "tough sh.t"? Why even bother with the fabricated excuses and lies you are so fond of generating day after day, hour after hour? I don't get it. What is your mental break? Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >Even you ought to be able to read the log of rmr and see dozens of >examples of that. It happened a lot. "Even you"? Hmmm... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >Even you ought to be able to read the log of rmr and see dozens of > >examples of that. It happened a lot. > > "Even you"? Hmmm... > > Eldred "Just like me." SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Eldred wrote: << Let me see if I got this straight. The ATF requires a certain set of rules for manufacturing motors. The TRA(governing body) adds to those rules to be considered a 'certified' manufacturer to sell their product. Your manufacturer refuses to (or can't) follow the TRA imposed rules. I can see companies trying to effect changes in the rules - that may be a good thing, and people could support it. But, what good does it do to simply bitch about it? >> <snipped for brevity> Well said! > TRA excludes FULLY LEGALLY compliant manufacturers. > > That is the exact point. Correct. If I went to Thiokol, ARC, or any other NASA contracter and had them make me sagans of K500 motors, and I had copies of their EX and LEMP (or better), TRA would not certify those motors if submitted by KGB Aerospace. NAR would. One more data point to add. Several years ago AT had the G12 but didn't certify it. IIRC it was George Gassaway who sent them to S&T and paid the certification fee to get them on the list, so he could use them for his RC models. TRA would not allow this. NAR did. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > TRA excludes FULLY LEGALLY compliant manufacturers. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (or better), TRA would not certify those motors if submitted by KGB > Aerospace. Thank you for confirming the obvious. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Bob K. wrote: << TRA would not allow this. NAR did. >> Kind of makes you wonder why Jerry doesn't stop whining about TRA, and just submit his motors to NAR. > >> Dave W. wrote: > >> << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process > many times. Then you submit the motors for testing. That's it. Are you always that good at deliberately missing the point? -dave w > > >> Dave W. wrote: > > >> << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > -dave w So much for "lessons learned". He and Ray ARE typical of TRA members and leaders too. Sad. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or > > > get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > He and Ray ARE typical of TRA members and leaders too. I wonder how much of this all traces back, by way of the hobby's deep-seated neurosis about "legitimacy", to the old ARS fuss... you asked why sport rocket people want to parse everything to death, why they refuse to take "yes" for an answer and insist on overregulating themselves? I think a lot of it, early on, was because we believed (or assumed everyone around us would believe) stuff like the old ARS diatribes against "amateur" rocketry, and were very thin-skinned about making sure that "nobody must think we're the sort of thing they were complaining about, so we need to be able to point to all these hoops we're jumping through to prove we're not". (Add to this the general notion that "rockets are a little like fireworks, and fireworks are forbidden"...) The really sad thing, the really ironic thing, is that I don't think anyone really holds what the ARS said against actual amateur rockets these days, but the old anxieties about being perceived as "basement bombers" by folks under the influence of the ARS propaganda have become instiutionalized in the formal arrangements (e.g.: "Motors aren't made by people, they're made by Commercial Manufacturers!") insisted on, in the name of "legitimacy", for "consumer" rockets. It seems that TRA was additionally intended as an "escape" from the original formal limits of "consumer" (i.e., "Model") rocketry, and then it turned around and bought into the same paradigm (with a few letters added for larger motors.) "Rebels are closet aristocrats." -dave w > > > > They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or > > > > get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > -dave w This should be in the FAQ. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> > > They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or >> > > get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >-dave w Jerry & Iz like ARS so it couldn't be their fault. > >> > > They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or > >> > > get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Jerry & Iz like ARS so it couldn't be their fault. You're confusing ARS (which merged with the Injstitute of Aeronautical Sciences to form AIAA years ago) with PRS (which is a currently-existing amateur club that holds launches down at Mojave)... -dave w little jerry wrote: >>>>They wouldn't oppose it . First get approved as a manufacturer (or >>>>get the actual manufacturer approved). We've discussed the process [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > "Rebels are closet aristocrats." Nice diatribe, but what's your point? > little jerry wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Nice diatribe, but what's your point? Of course you do not know. You have a very low intelligence. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>little jerry wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Of course you do not know. You have a very low intelligence. So, why don't you explain little jerry's post to Me? > It seems that TRA was additionally intended as an "escape" > from the original formal limits of "consumer" (i.e., "Model") > rocketry, and then it turned around and bought into the same > paradigm (with a few letters added for larger motors.) Bingo! Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. Dave W. wrote: << I don't think anyone really holds what the ARS said against actual amateur rockets these days, but the old anxieties about being perceived as "basement bombers" by folks under the influence of the ARS propaganda have become instiutionalized in the formal arrangements (e.g.: "Motors aren't made by people, they're made by Commercial Manufacturers!") insisted on, in the name of "legitimacy", for "consumer" rockets.>> If you're selling motors, you're no longer an amateur. You're a commercial manufacturer. << It seems that TRA was additionally intended as an "escape" from the original formal limits of "consumer" (i.e., "Model") rocketry...>> It was an escape from the limits of _Model_ rocketry, not consumer rocketry. An escape from consumer rocketry already existed -- amateur rocketry. If you and Jerry don't like the constraints of consumer rocketry, you're perfectly free to stick with amateur rocketry. The problem is, Jerry wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to be treated (by the regs) as an amateur rocketeer, but he wants to sell motors, which is commercial. > It was an escape from the limits of _Model_ rocketry, not consumer rocketry. An > escape from consumer rocketry already existed -- amateur rocketry. Incorrect. You go back far enough to know this Ray. When TRA started, there were no certified motors or manufacturers. You flew what you had. And there were a bunch of garage manufacturers making motors and selling them at launches. Or you made your own, and maybe even sold some of what you made. Didn't matter at all. Some were good, some were not. You paid your money and took your chances. It wasn't until the early 1993 or so that TRA got into the NFPA process and started testing motors. They put of the certification deadline several times before finally requiring that all motors be certified. And it was John Cato that finally got the certification process moving to the point that NFPA didn't give the club the boot from the NFPA committee. The problem then was that the 'no rules" crowd that built TRA suddenly had rules, a safety code, and certified motors just like the NAR. So to fix that, EX came along a few years later. The EX "builder of the motor" limitation didn't come about until USR certifications were yanked, and they started showing up at EX launches where the original TRA lack of rules from 1985-1992 applied. I said at that time and maintain today that this was a case of TRA doing the right thing for the wrong reason, at the wrong time. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. (RayDunakin) writes: << It was an escape from the limits of _Model_ rocketry, not consumer rocketry. An escape from consumer rocketry already existed -- amateur rocketry.>> << Incorrect. You go back far enough to know this Ray. When TRA started, there were no certified motors or manufacturers.>> True, there were no certified motors when TRA started. How could there be, since the Model Rocketry org wouldn't cert them? Yes, it took a few years to get the TRA motor cert process running and up to speed. And yes, TRA does have a limited EX program apart from the consumer side of high power rocketry. That doesn't negate the fact that the TRA was essentially formed to escape the limits of Model Rocketry. It wasn't a complete rejection of consumer rocketry. << The problem then was that the 'no rules" crowd that built TRA suddenly had rules, a safety code, and certified motors just like the NAR. >> Yeah, some folks don't like safety codes and some, such as Jerry, don't like motor certs. That's why Jerry's still whining -- he wants TRA to go back to the "no rules" era, and that's not going to happen. TRA grew up, while Jerry has not. > > and some, such as Jerry, don't like > motor certs. Lying sack of sh.t. > he wants TRA to go back to > the > "no rules" era, Lying sack of sh.t. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>>Dave W. wrote: >>>>><< Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Jerry It's only sad for you. The man with NO credibility. Poor jerry. > Poor jerry. It's not about Jerry. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> >> Dave W. wrote: >> >> << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >-dave w I like to think so. 8-) little jerry wrote: >>>>Dave W. wrote: >>>><< Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Are you always that good at deliberately missing the point? Are you always this good at denying the factually obvious? >>Dave W. wrote: >><< Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -dave w You've got it all wrong. There is no manufacturer of "industrial" motors. It's jerry.... pulling another scam. > >>Dave W. wrote: > >><< Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You've got it all wrong. There is no manufacturer of "industrial" > motors. It's jerry.... pulling another scam. Seems like folks are holding it against Jerry either way... if he was the "actual manufacturer", _that_ would be a "scam"? (First y'all were saying that it was a "scam" that he _wasn't_!!) If yer gonna be one o' the Anti-Jerry Whiners, at least be consistent! -dave w little jerry wrote: >>>>Dave W. wrote: >>>><< Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > -dave w jerry really is the manufacturer, and he has NO legitimate paperwork or permits. > jerry really is the manufacturer, You just cannot stand that I have surrendered, can you? You do not see motors around anymore. They are done. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>jerry really is the manufacturer, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jerry Then why are you still selling them? Jerry wrote: << You just cannot stand that I have surrendered, can you? >> You haven't surrendered, you're still whining and attacking TRA/NAR. Dave W. wrote: << Seems like folks are holding it against Jerry either way... if he was the "actual manufacturer", _that_ would be a "scam"? (First y'all were saying that it was a "scam" that he _wasn't_!!) >> No, we said if he's making the motors himself, and claiming someone else did, that's a scam. And if someone else really was making the motors for him, there's no way to prove it's not a scam if the actual manufacturer isn't willing to submit the motors and paperwork. > No, we said if he's making the motors himself, and claiming someone else did, > that's a scam. And if someone else really was making the motors for him, > there's no way to prove it's not a scam if the actual manufacturer isn't > willing to submit the motors and paperwork. Yes and no. It's quite possible to have the original manufacturer submit the papers and motors for certification. But TRA policy prohibits this. NAR policy does not, and provides confidentiality for all disclosures. There is actually another alternative I haven't seen mentioned lately. Nowhere does it say that NAR and TRA have a monopoly on certification. There are big companies that test products as their business. URS or any other motor manufacturer could go to UL or some such company, and ask that they certify their motors. of course, instead of the $25-35 that our groups charge, expect it to cost some 5-7 digit sum. But I can't see the NAR, NFPA, or any one lese refusing to accept UL certification of model rocket motors. Back in the 70s, we used to launch on the front lawn of UL. Had a local club and several members worked there. Now most of it is a housing development, and the rest is a post office. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > No, we said if he's making the motors himself, and claiming someone else > > did, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > papers and motors for certification. But TRA policy prohibits this. NAR > policy does not, and provides confidentiality for all disclosures. Which NAR does not honor. > There is actually another alternative I haven't seen mentioned lately. > Nowhere does it say that NAR and TRA have a monopoly on certification. There [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 (RayDunakin) writes: << No, we said if he's making the motors himself, and claiming someone else did, that's a scam. And if someone else really was making the motors for him, there's no way to prove it's not a scam if the actual manufacturer isn't willing to submit the motors and paperwork.>> Bob K. replied: << Yes and no. It's quite possible to have the original manufacturer submit the papers and motors for certification. >> I never said they couldn't. I said that someone who is NOT the actual manufacturer can't submit the papers and motors. << But TRA policy prohibits this. >> No, TRA policy _requires_ it! > OK, suppose I were to go to a manufacturer of "industrial" > motors and put in a bulk order for a pallet-load of some [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rule) Would that make 'Dave's Propulsion Dynamics' a "sham" because > it wasn't "the actual company" that manufactured the motors?? Under this scenario, you COULD get the motors certified by the NAR, assuming you had all the appropriate paperwork for the original manufacturer. NAR does not have this silly "anti-Jerry" rule. NAR has certified several labels in this manner: Apogee, RocketVision, and PML composites lately, and back 2 decades ago NCR and even USR composites. For BP motors Quest today, and Centuri, MPC, CMR, ASC and others in the past. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > Dave W. wrote: > << Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual > manufacturer"? >> > > It's to ensure that the actual manufacturer really exists, and isn't just a > sham concocted by frauds trying to get around the rules. Why is that TRA's problem and why would anybody assume somebody coming forward with motors and EX numbers is a sham? Especially if they ALSO get ATF LEMP at Tripoli's misguided request?? Seriously. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>Dave W. wrote: >><< Why should it matter whether the proximate supplier is the "actual [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Jerry Maybe the tip-off was the LEMP and The DOT papers had different names on them. I wrote: << It's to ensure that the actual manufacturer really exists, and isn't just a sham concocted by frauds trying to get around the rules.>> Jerry replied: << Why is that TRA's problem...>> Maybe, like most people, they don't _want_ to deal with frauds. > > > > "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will one > > > > day dominate this business. You'll notice they never attack his motors. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Seriously. Hmmm... Sorry, but I find that very difficult to believe. We live in a democracy... the kind of power that is inferred by you to the NRA and TRA could not possibly exist under our societal rules nor under our constitution. No sane person would put up with it. We, as US citizens have certain RIGHTS. It would take the Majority of people to AGREE with stupid rules to enforce them... surely the Majority of people aren't that... well... ... surely Rocketeers aren't 'Sheeple'!!! > > > > > "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will > one [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > ... surely Rocketeers aren't 'Sheeple'!!! Welcome to TRA. "For those of you who are fans of the Calvin & Hobbes comic strip, this is Kellyball, which is like Clavinball. You make up the rules as you go along, you change the rules whenever it suits you, and you never ever let Jerry Irvine (who in this morality tale takes the place of Susie) play." - Jim McLaughlin Better a few rules, than Calvinball rules. - Calvin Everything's gotta have rules, rules, rules! - Calvin He's YOUR god, They're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell. - Locutus SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > > > > "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will > > one [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Welcome to TRA. Santanico: "... Welcome to slavery!" > > > ... surely Rocketeers aren't 'Sheeple'!!! TRA members are the most intense sheeple I have ever witnessed in my life. > Santanico: > "... Welcome to slavery!" SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 mburggra wrote: << ... surely Rocketeers aren't 'Sheeple'!!! >> Jerry thinks they are. But then, he also thinks rocketeers are "screaming whiners", "zealots", etc. > mburggra wrote: > << ... surely Rocketeers aren't 'Sheeple'!!! >> > > Jerry thinks they are. But then, he also thinks rocketeers are "screaming > whiners", "zealots", etc. Hmmm. HPR subscribers. ATF magazine getters. ATF permits for motor transactions. Yep, I'd say they are sheeple. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>mburggra wrote: >><< ... surely Rocketeers aren't 'Sheeple'!!! >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Jerry Sounds like you're bitter. Jerry wrote: << Yep, I'd say they are sheeple. >> See Mark? I told that's what Jerry thinks of rocketeers. Of course, what he really means is, "Waa!! They won't kowtow to my every demand! Waa!" > Jerry wrote: > << Yep, I'd say they are sheeple. >> > > See Mark? I told that's what Jerry thinks of rocketeers. Of course, what he > really means is, "Waa!! They won't kowtow to my every demand! Waa!" I gave examples, you did not. You are a pure troll. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>Jerry wrote: >><< Yep, I'd say they are sheeple. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I gave examples, you did not. You are a pure troll. He posted an example of you claiming rocketeers are sheeple. you are the one with the empty posts. > Jerry wrote: > << Yep, I'd say they are sheeple. >> > > See Mark? I told that's what Jerry thinks of rocketeers. Of course, what he > really means is, "Waa!! They won't kowtow to my every demand! Waa!" warning, I am in a flame mood tonight. Ray, when was tha last time you did something to promote the hobby? release a press release about one of your club members getting their level 1 to the local papers? does your local TVs community callendar list your launch dates? Jerrys been griping about a lot of stuff, and i can see that people here would rather argue about it than actually show what they have done to refute his claims. so far we have a 3 part TV show that discovery owns explaining HPR BADLY (how many CATO vs good flights were shown?) LIST OUT THERE. you club presidents, when was tha last time you did ANY of the following sent an email to your local newpaper sent an email to your local Radio Station sent an email to your regional newpaper sent an email to your regional Radio Station sent an email to surrounding schools spoke to a classroom about model rocketry spoke to a civic group (jaycees, Lions) about model rocketry tried to speak to a landowner about a launch are before you lost your existing one tried to speak to a non related club about how your club could get some mutual benefit (like a photo club) boy. I dont hear much. What do you want, me to dial a telephone for you? write the emails for you? Guess what, all i seem to hear is a bunch of people here arguing that this stuff is HARD, that there is no intrerrest so WHY bother. Bah, bunch of lousy lazy sheeple, maybe you deserve to have your hobby dropped. or maybe you should start a whinning club. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >LIST OUT THERE. you club presidents, when was tha last time you did ANY of >the following [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >boy. I dont hear much. www.birminghamrocketboys.com snip > www.birminghamrocketboys.com Some at least, are doing all we can. Go from link to link and check it out. Randy >www.birminghamrocketboys.com Any idea how high the pic on 'launch info' was taken from? That's cool... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East not really sure of the alltitude... It was shot from a plane though...!!! >not really sure of the alltitude... > >It was shot from a plane though...!!! Doh! That's cheating, man...<g> Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East << It was shot from a plane though...!!! >> Gee, where's the fun in that? :) Tater wrote: << Ray, when was tha last time you did something to promote the hobby? >> Everytime I go out to launch, with my rockets on the roof of my Trooper. Gets lots of attention, and I get an opportunity to give people info about the hobby and our local club. Even got interviewed for the (Pahrump, NV) TV news a couple years ago when I was passing through. << Jerrys been griping about a lot of stuff, and i can see that people here would rather argue about it than actually show what they have done to refute his claims. >> Sorry, I fail to see the connection between promoting local launches and Jerry's constant whining about not getting his illegal motors certified. > Tater wrote: > << Ray, when was tha last time you did something to promote the hobby? >> > << i can see that people here > would rather argue about it than actually show what they have done to refute > his claims. >> > > Sorry, I fail to see the connection between promoting local launches and > Jerry's constant whining about not getting his motors certified. I see you totally missed the point. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >LIST OUT THERE. you club presidents, when was tha last time you did ANY of >the following [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >tried to speak to a non related club about how your club could get some >mutual benefit (like a photo club) Why does it have to be a club president? I've sent e-mails to the local radio morning crew, inviting them to a JMRC launch. I've handed out flyers to the kids who work for us. I've bought a bunch of bulk rocket kits from Fred to give to my girlfriend's daughter's Girl Scout troup. I'd probably have better luck if the boy was in the Boy Scouts, but he's only 4 right now...<g> I'll also probably see if I can put some brochures on the counter at the bowling center where my dad works. I like the photo club angle, though. Any other 'symbiotic' clubs you can suggest? I'd hate to think that I was wasting my time just because I'm not a club president... :-) Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >LIST OUT THERE. you club presidents, when was tha last time you did ANY of > >the following [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > center where my dad works. I like the photo club angle, though. Any other > 'symbiotic' clubs you can suggest? Ham radio (tracking, telelmetry) jaycees, lions (fundraising, leadership) sewing clubs (parachutes) ATV clubs (recovery) boating/yacht clubs (offshore recovery) RC aricraft clubs (RCBG technical support) Aircraft clubs (targeting...no wait, more recovery) :D plastic modelers (paint skill workshops, data mining) modeling clubs? (babes with rockets for the photo club) artists groups (nose art, graphic design, who knows what else) oh geez, I havent thought of all the club type things schools have. journalism, AV, science. sheesh! > I'd hate to think that I was wasting my time just because I'm not a club > president... :-) No, but I'll be the first to nominate you for it...... > Eldred SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >Ham radio (tracking, telelmetry) >jaycees, lions (fundraising, leadership) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >RC aricraft clubs (RCBG technical support) >Aircraft clubs (targeting...no wait, more recovery) :D Oops... :-) >plastic modelers (paint skill workshops, data mining) >modeling clubs? (babes with rockets for the photo club) >artists groups (nose art, graphic design, who knows what else) > >oh geez, I havent thought of all the club type things schools have. >journalism, AV, science. sheesh! Interesting list. I haven't been in grade school(or even high school) in a loooong time... Never thought of those school club thingys. >> I'd hate to think that I was wasting my time just because I'm not a club >> president... :-) > >No, but I'll be the first to nominate you for it...... Club president? Dude, I'm still learning - I wouldn't know what to do yet... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > I'd hate to think that I was wasting my time just because I'm not a club > president... :-) You don't have to be in a club. What you're doing is great. Keep it up! But there are also many advantages to being in a good club. Randy >You don't have to be in a club. What you're doing is great. Keep it up! Thanks! >But there are also many advantages to being in a good club. I've launched with the JMRC, and they're a pretty cool group of people. I only wish they weren't so damn far away from me... :-( Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East Eld, You sound like a prime canidate to be Founder of your own club. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > >You don't have to be in a club. What you're doing is great. Keep it up! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Eldred >Eld, You sound like a prime canidate to be Founder of your own club. Thanks, but I need to work on being a bit more 'organized' first. Right now, I'm a bit of a wreck. Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >Eld, You sound like a prime canidate to be Founder of your own club. > > Thanks, but I need to work on being a bit more 'organized' first. Right now, > I'm a bit of a wreck. Delegate. :) I am a slouch when it comes to orginization, hence I got a good secreteary on board now. just find some rocket freinds, get em together once a week, and start having meetings. Best way I found is to get them together to have "build sessions" most newbies are worried that they might screw something up, or not have a particular sandpaper or glue. Having a build night helps you all get together to share tools, tips, and ideas. tonight is our build night. I cant find my razor saw so I am gonna borrow Zaks to help work on my outlander. we'll also be discussing a some future launches we are planning and will be doing a bit of a field trip to the unfinnished haunted house (one member is involved, has a 4' saucer than might be modded for flight) oh club fell together when a freind asked if I could do a model rocket launch/make-n-take for a batch of kids. I knew I could not do it allone and called a bunch of freinds together to help. I offered free beer and help the founding meeting of our club in a bar. not a kid freindly place, but it got me founding members SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >I am a slouch when it comes to orginization, hence I got a good secreteary >on board now. just find some rocket freinds, get em together once a week, >and start having meetings. Jobs, families, kids, soccer games, etc. All those keep people from getting together that often. I may try to pull something together next spring. Since it's getting colder, rockets won't be viable much longer. >Best way I found is to get them together to have "build sessions" most >newbies are worried that they might screw something up, or not have a >particular sandpaper or glue. Having a build night helps you all get >together to share tools, tips, and ideas. >oh club fell together when a freind asked if I could do a model rocket >launch/make-n-take for a batch of kids. I knew I could not do it allone and >called a bunch of freinds together to help. I offered free beer and help the >founding meeting of our club in a bar. not a kid freindly place, but it got >me founding members I need to come up with something for the Girl Scout troup. We were thinking that the girls could design and build a high power bird, then have someone sponsor the launch from the JMRC. I'm not sure how do-able building from scratch(as opposed to a kit) will be yet. Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > mburggra wrote: > << ... surely Rocketeers aren't 'Sheeple'!!! >> > > Jerry thinks they are. But then, he also thinks rocketeers are "screaming > whiners", "zealots", etc. From what I've seen at rmr... Jerry is right! ;) Though it's a bit different from the launches I've attended. Everyone has been VERY supportive, sympathetic, and encouraging! ... but maybe that's just DARS. >> > > "In my opinion this is just more confirmation that US Rockets will one >> > > day dominate this business. You'll notice they never attack his motors. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Jerry Poor Jerry. > > You're fantasitc! > > :) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > everything." > - Breck Stapleton You're great AND fantasitic! Great quote by Breck Stapleton... great quote! > > > You're fantasitc! > > > :) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > You're great AND fantasitic! Great quote by Breck Stapleton... great quote! P.S. I did that to over 10,000 5th graders over 13 years. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > > You're fantasitc! > > > > :) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > P.S. I did that to over 10,000 5th graders over 13 years. And they are just NOW coming of age... and having children of their own. ... education and enlightenment are seeds that we plant in fertile soil. You made an imprint... One may never be rewarded in his\her lifetime by seeing the fruits of their labor... it takes conviction, faith, trust, and a willing to sacrifice to keep going... Frustrating? Yes. Rewardless? Often. Seldom are there any immediate rewards for the educator... but we can't give up. You can't give up. Others can't give up. It's not in our nature. :( > > > > > You're fantasitc! > > > > > :) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > You made an imprint... They keep chasing me down and telling me. Ahhh, small town life in Claremont. Of course I never recognize THEM! > One may never be rewarded in his\her lifetime by seeing the fruits of their > labor... it takes conviction, faith, trust, and a willing to sacrifice to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It's not in our nature. > :( I have received more positive feedback than most teachers. I did teach ROCKETRY after all. Everyone was motivated! Jerry Let that be a lesson. Teach model rocketry classes. I can be far more positive than the trolls can be negative. Good does overcome evil. Remember that. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>>>You're fantasitc! >>>>>>:) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > They keep chasing me down and telling me. Ahhh, small town life in > Claremont. jerry, you don't live in Claremont. you live in Hesperia, you mommy and daddy live in Claremont. And those people chasing you, they're creditors! > > > > > > You're fantasitc! > > > > > > :) [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Of course I never recognize THEM! A difficult skill to master... but an ability that will make your students feel very special! ;) > > One may never be rewarded in his\her lifetime by seeing the fruits of their > > labor... it takes conviction, faith, trust, and a willing to sacrifice to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I have received more positive feedback than most teachers. I did teach > ROCKETRY after all. Everyone was motivated! Of course! What a wonderful Indoor-Outdoor experience! Art, craft, using tools, painting, decals, gluing, machining, sanding, imagination. Beauty, floating, clouds, chasing, wind, air, wide open fields. Gravity, acceleration, geometry, algebra, physics. Fire, noise, smoke, speed, crashing, burning, ripping, shredding. Hell, it's got something for EVERYONE!!! Should be part of the BASIC curriculum for school in EVERY grade!!! > Let that be a lesson. Teach model rocketry classes. It's not hard... > I can be far more positive than the trolls can be negative. I've seen it! > Good does > overcome evil. Remember that. It is my Mantra... though a sometimes difficult chant in this day and age. Jerry wrote: > www.v-serv.com/usr/therunningman.htm > > Here's Jim Brown (the football star) > http://www.v-serv.com/usr/fx/RunningMan05.jpg cool shot, but wouldn't they have used a stunt man for that? BTW, why aren't doing work for the movies anymore? > Jerry wrote: > > www.v-serv.com/usr/therunningman.htm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cool shot, but wouldn't they have used a stunt man for that? BTW, why aren't > doing work for the movies anymore? Go away Ray You are a troll, a liar and a spreader of false information over and over. Leave me alone. Stop harassing me. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > >> In article <10n7v904a7rhb1@corp.supernews.com>, Glen Overby > > <coreSPAMsample@charter.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > If you want the whole story, see me in person. Will do... > Olive trees are very valuable. Thanks! :) > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. Yup. LOL...Great Post! Mark A Palmer > The last DARS Launch revealed.... > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Does 'Luck' have anything to do with this hobby... I dunno. > 9. Shovels purchased as a 'joke' recovery device, WILL eventually be used. > Buy a good one. A shovel is carried in the DARS equipment trailer for a reason. :-( SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz > > > > 9. Shovels purchased as a 'joke' recovery device, WILL eventually be used. > > Buy a good one. > > A shovel is carried in the DARS equipment trailer for a reason. :-( And it only went about 12 inches into the ground... OK, maybe eighteen... then accordioned like you wouldn't believe! You should have seen the Electronics bay... :( We've repaired the RDAS and downloaded it's flight information... of course, we can't trust it to fly again. Curiously, it showed a flight profile indicating that no parachutes ever deployed! The RDAS X-Y sensor shows a lot of vibration during boost... we're guessing the Pyro battery for the GWIZ came loose. I KNEW we should have hooked up the RDAS for redundancy! We haven't looked at the magnometer data yet. We're focusing on the GWIZ MC... it had a 25 degree bend, components are missing, the board is cracked... it'll require a bit of research before we can get info from that 'black box'. Next DARS launch we should have a radio controlled back-up system... just a matter of getting it ordered, delivered, installed, and configured... and it's all gotta fit in a 2.5 inch body. <sigh> > We're focusing on the GWIZ MC... it had a 25 degree bend, components are > missing, the board is cracked... it'll require a bit of research before we > can get info from that 'black box'. If you can find the main CPU/NVM chip and unsolder it in one piece, you could probably take an undamaged Gwiz MC, unsolder its chip and put in the one retrieved from the flight, and boot it up to download the data. -dave w > > We're focusing on the GWIZ MC... it had a 25 degree bend, components are > > missing, the board is cracked... it'll require a bit of research before we [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -dave w Proving once again data is far more valuable than parts and/or labor. www.rocketmaterials.org Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Proving once again data is far more valuable than parts and/or labor. > > www.rocketmaterials.org Excellent. Concur. Couldn't agree with you more. > > We're focusing on the GWIZ MC... it had a 25 degree bend, components are > > missing, the board is cracked... it'll require a bit of research before we [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > put in the one retrieved from the flight, and boot it up to download > the data. We've got the traces (7) on circuit board repaired (we believe). We've replaced several missing components, 2 of the MAX221 charge pump caps were missing, and one was broke... but still no comm... we're now in the process of verifying if the processor.is actually functioning... thankfully we've got some pretty good tools at our disposal! Hell, this is the kind of stuff we get paid to do! Though, usually we've got a working system to reverse. Know anyone willing to let us borrow a GWIZ MC for a couple of hours? |
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