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Model Forum / General / Rockets / October 2004Launching heavy rockets
If I wanted to build a rocket that would end up a little over 4 pounds, how do I calculate how strong of an engine(or cluster) I need? Eldred  Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > If I wanted to build a rocket that would end up a little over 4 pounds, how do > I calculate how strong of an engine(or cluster) I need? Assume that you want at least a 5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, so you would try for 20 pounds (88 newtons) of thrust. This is often calculated from the engine's rated average thrust, but if you can get a copy of the thrust curve, the first second or so is really the part to look at, since the critical factor is that the rocket should promptly get up enough speed at launch for the fins to start stabilizing it... -dave w >Assume that you want at least a 5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, so you >would try for 20 pounds (88 newtons) of thrust. This is often calculated >from the engine's rated average thrust, but if you can get a copy of the >thrust curve, the first second or so is really the part to look at, since >the critical factor is that the rocket should promptly get up enough speed >at launch for the fins to start stabilizing it... Ok, I'll check in the Estes tech manual. I think there's a thrust curve there... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > If I wanted to build a rocket that would end up a little over 4 pounds, how do > I calculate how strong of an engine(or cluster) I need? > > Eldred sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages. sure you cant make it lighter? SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages. > sure > you cant make it lighter? http://www.nar.org/pdf/Aerotech/G80.pdf G-80's initial thrust is around 100 newtons. I know I've flown a three pound rocket on a G-80 and it was fine. Was an extremely overstable rocket though. A four pound rocket would be a little marginal maybe? Anyone ever fly a four pound rocket on a G-80? > G-80's initial thrust is around 100 newtons. I know I've flown a three > pound rocket on a G-80 and it was fine. Was an extremely overstable rocket > though. A four pound rocket would be a little marginal maybe? Anyone ever > fly a four pound rocket on a G-80? A 4 pound rocket on a G80 is still HPR... Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > G-80's initial thrust is around 100 newtons. I know I've flown a three > > pound rocket on a G-80 and it was fine. Was an extremely overstable rocket > > though. A four pound rocket would be a little marginal maybe? Anyone ever > > fly a four pound rocket on a G-80? > > A 4 pound rocket on a G80 is still HPR... There goes Bob, pickin' them nits again. SignatureTweak is it? i thought that it would need a waiver, but not level certification. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > > G-80's initial thrust is around 100 newtons. I know I've flown a three > > pound rocket on a G-80 and it was fine. Was an extremely overstable rocket [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > is it? i thought that it would need a waiver, but not level certification. Exceed ANY of the MR limits, and your rocket is HPR. All HPR rockets require certification. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > is it? i thought that it would need a waiver, but not level certification. edit > Exceed ANY of the MR limits, and your rocket is HPR [or amateur]. All HPR rockets require > certification. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > is it? i thought that it would need a waiver, but not level certification. > > Exceed ANY of the MR limits, and your rocket is HPR. All HPR rockets require > certification. Bob, could you show me where? all the safety code says is that if it is over a pound, check with the FAA. If it has over a G engine, it's gotta be certified. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > Bob, could you show me where? all the safety code says is that if it is over > a pound, check with the FAA. "7. Size. My model rocket will not weigh more than 1,500 grams (53 ounces) at liftoff and will not contain more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant or 320 N-sec (71.9 pound-seconds) of total impulse. If my model rocket weighs more than one pound (453 grams) at liftoff or has more than four ounces (113 grams) of propellant, I will check and comply with Federal Aviation Administration regulations before flying." If it's over any of the limits (total mass, propellant mass, newton-seconds, MR motor), then it's not a model rocket. The only thing for it to be is thus HPR. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > Bob, could you show me where? all the safety code says is that if it is > > over [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > MR motor), then it's not a model rocket. The only thing for it to be is thus > HPR. Only if certified motors are used and the user is certified for the power class. If not, then amateur. Also the rocket must be below the MLOW of the motor by the manufacturer, and if not specified, it must be a recommended motor for the KIT, if not then it is amateur again. > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > Bob, could you show me where? all the safety code says is that if it is over > > a pound, check with the FAA. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > MR motor), then it's not a model rocket. The only thing for it to be is thus > HPR. yes I saw this. it said to check with the FAA. It did not say that such a rocket must comply with the HPR codes. All the FAA is concerned is if you fly it, either get a notam, or a waiver. Or as jerry said, it might be considered amatuer, but lets stick to this. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >> "7. Size. My model rocket will not weigh more than 1,500 grams (53 ounces) >> at liftoff and will not contain more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > yes I saw this. it said to check with the FAA. It did not say that such a > rocket must comply with the HPR codes. No, it says that you need to check with the FAA for 454-1500g rockets. The first sentence defines a model rocket as being not more than 1500g. Over 1500g and you're something else. Most likely HPR, but could be amateur or professional. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > A 4 pound rocket on a G80 is still HPR... > is it? i thought that it would need a waiver, but not level certification. Anything over 3.3lbs total OR 125g of propellant requires a waiver. At a club launch, HPR cert is needed as well. If I understand the NFPA stuff correctly, you could maybe need certification even for a lone ranger launch, if you live in an area that has adopted NFPA (1127?) standards. But if you just have a waiver, you're probably OK. Besides the two above, there are four other conditions which require HPR certification, but not FAA waivers. Doug >> > A 4 pound rocket on a G80 is still HPR... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >a lone ranger launch, if you live in an area that has adopted NFPA >(1127?) standards. Crap - looks like I'm SOL until I get a cert... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages That isn't a bad thing. > >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages > > That isn't a bad thing. It most certainly is. The worldwide market for HPR is 2500 folks. NAR should kill the 80N rule for adults. Return the AT SU G125 to the certified model rocket roles where it belongs. That was a great motor! Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > NAR should kill the 80N rule for adults. > > Return the AT SU G125 to the certified model rocket roles where it > belongs. That was a great motor! Precisely. -dave w little jerry wrote: >>NAR should kill the 80N rule for adults. >> >>Return the AT SU G125 to the certified model rocket roles where it >>belongs. That was a great motor! > > Precisely. > little jerry wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > Precisely. puretroll This IS your life :) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages > > > > That isn't a bad thing. > > It most certainly is. The worldwide market for HPR is 2500 folks. <smack!> Jerry, quit driving away potential HPR fliers. maybe he can be #2501 SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >> >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Jerry So you are saying HPR is bad? What a moron. > >> >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > So you are saying HPR is bad? What a moron. Overregulated, overcodified HPR most certainly is. It chokes off participation and growth of a now mature industry till it has a mere 2500 remaining zealots worldwide. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> >> >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages >> >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Jerry SO; do you think HPR should be killed? >It most certainly is. The worldwide market for HPR is 2500 folks. > >NAR should kill the 80N rule for adults. > >Return the AT SU G125 to the certified model rocket roles where it >belongs. That was a great motor! Aw, fer cryin' out LOUD! I should have *known*... :-( Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages > > That isn't a bad thing. The only "bad" thing is that folks were historically so determined to differentiate "Model Rocketry" from every other possible kind of rocketry (the better, I suppose, to "negotiate a separate peace" for "little toy rockets" against a perceived background of general opposition to "amateur" rocketry) that we're now stuck with a bunch of perfectly arbitrary dividing lines cutting right across the middle of what's now viewed as the useful power range for sport rockets. Hint: nobody except the "consumer rocket" fanatics uses "amateur rocketry" as a negative term anymore. -dave w little Davy wrote: >>>sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -dave w No one was talking about amateur rocketry. Are you saying HPR is a bad thing? Are you trolling this thread, for jerry? > little Davy wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > No one was talking about amateur rocketry. Estes had a massive negative propoganda campaign against amateur rocketry in the 60's and 70's. It's representatives initiated the NFPA process and codified that bias. This is fact. If you knew anything about rocketry codification, you would know that. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>little Davy wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Jerry What does any of this have to do with this thread? > >>little Davy wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > What does any of this have to do with this thread? You _genuinely_ don't see how it's all connected? We're talking about the history of thrust restrictions... -dave w little jerry wrote: >>>>little Davy wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > You _genuinely_ don't see how it's all connected? > We're talking about the history of thrust restrictions... No, the thread is titled: Launching heavy rockets. And then you and big jerry hijacked the thread. > > We're talking about the history of thrust restrictions... > No, the thread is titled: Launching heavy rockets. > And then you and big jerry hijacked the thread. Huh? Thrust restrictions and rocketry categories were being included in the discussion (as relevant to the problem of launching heavy rockets) before Jerry and I posted anything at all. In that context, our discussion about the history that led to such thrust limits was perfectly apropos... Please explain, in detail, why you view this as "hijacking". -dave w little jerry wrote: >>>We're talking about the history of thrust restrictions... >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > apropos... Please explain, in detail, why you view this > as "hijacking". It's really obvious how you and big jerry troll as a team. Does that explain "it"? > > >>little Davy wrote: > > >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > -dave w For heavy rockets I had to state the obvious because I know Brian Teeling personally. There is no assurance even the obvious is good enough. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > >>little Davy wrote: > > > >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > I had to state the obvious because I know Brian Teeling personally. > There is no assurance even the obvious is good enough. DaveW: > You _genuinely_ don't see how it's all connected? > We're talking about the history of thrust restrictions... Brian Teeling aka Dave Grayvis aka tiny brain: > No, the thread is titled: Launching heavy rockets. > And then you and big jerry hijacked the thread. I was right!!!!!!!!!!! I said: > For heavy rockets > > I had to state the obvious because I know Brian Teeling personally. > There is no assurance even the obvious is good enough. This --IS-- his life!!! THOUSANDS of messages and no rocket content! Brian loves Jerry (harassment) Wipe your chin now Brian ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > I had to state the obvious because I know Brian Teeling personally. > There is no assurance even the obvious is good enough. jerry, you are a fraudulent, lying, conniving deadbeat. When are you going to pay Me My money? > > I had to state the obvious because I know Brian Teeling personally. > > There is no assurance even the obvious is good enough. > > jerry, you are a fraudulent, lying, conniving deadbeat. > > When are you going to pay Me My money? Oh, are you claiming to be the mysterious "Brian Teeling" now? After what's been said about _him_, I'd think you would have been a lot more careful not to blow the cover on a perfectly good pseudonym if you _were_ him... I think you're someone else who's trying to make everybody _think_ you're this "Brian Teeling" character... although I'm not sure why any sane person would want to do _that_! -dave w > > > I had to state the obvious because I know Brian Teeling personally. > > > There is no assurance even the obvious is good enough. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -dave w Who is Keyser Soze? SignatureTweak >> I had to state the obvious because I know Brian Teeling personally. >> There is no assurance even the obvious is good enough. > >jerry, you are a fraudulent, lying, conniving deadbeat. > >When are you going to pay Me My money? Come on!!! We need a better comeback than that!!! > > little Davy wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Estes had a massive negative propoganda campaign against amateur > rocketry in the 60's and 70's. and WHAT year is it now? > It's representatives initiated the NFPA process and codified that bias. yes back then, in an attempt to keep kids from blowing their hands off, or taking a rocket like the LOC IV and having it fly into someone living room. Jerry, rather than gripe about it, why not do something about it. like promoting the hobby rather than diggin up all it's mistakes. SignatureTater(wasn't there something about T-shirts?) President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > Jerry, rather than gripe about it, why not do something about it. like > promoting the hobby rather than diggin up all it's mistakes. Jerry believes that correcting some of the past mistakes (especially some of the ones that got written into the NFPA "safety code" and related policies along the way) would be important to help promote the hobby. -dave w >>Jerry, rather than gripe about it, why not do something about it. like >>promoting the hobby rather than diggin up all it's mistakes. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -dave w OMG!?!? You ARE little JI! :) Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 > >>Jerry, rather than gripe about it, why not do something about it. like > >>promoting the hobby rather than diggin up all it's mistakes. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > TRA#5512 > IEAS#75 Or maybe it is just a good idea worth persuing? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > Jerry, rather than gripe about it, why not do something about it. like > > promoting the hobby rather than diggin up all it's mistakes. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -dave w God bless. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >Estes had a massive negative propoganda campaign against amateur >rocketry in the 60's and 70's. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Jerry What happend to your previous claims that TRA & NAR did that? > >Estes had a massive negative propoganda campaign against amateur > >rocketry in the 60's and 70's. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What happend to your previous claims that TRA & NAR did that? They are on the "sport rocket caucus" of the NFPA. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Estes had a massive negative propoganda campaign against amateur > rocketry in the 60's and 70's. BB /= AR! Stine and Estes and the NAR had a campaign against the "Basement Bomber". Kids were doing really stupid and dangerous stuff in the late 50s and early 60s. Stuffing match heads into CO2 cartriges and the like. Harry saw Model Rockets as a safe outlet for this talent. Harry was right. AR has been around for a lot longer than MR. If you have the knowledge and the facilities and the proper safety equipment it can be relatively safe. Without those key things it is something very different and dangerous. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -dave w Ever actually. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >-dave w The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that HPR isn't going away and that it isn't a bad thing. > The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that > HPR isn't going away Oh, they did. They codified it to death and TRA and NAR assisted. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Guys, this is ridiculous. I know I'm not the first person to complain about it, and I won't be the last, but this is rec.models.rockets, not rec.models.jerry.bashing. Eldred asks a question about rocketry, a question that is very interesting, and that I'd like to read about, and that I have to wade through all your piddling crap to find the answer to. If it's really that important to go over the same argument time and time again, can you do it elsewhere? If you don't like Jerry, fine. Most of us don't care, we just want to fly the bloody rockets. But if you don't like him, there's no need to inflict it on the rest of us. Every time HPR is mentioned, a few posts later, Jerry comes up, and then we never hear the end of it. And Jerry, I know it's hard to do, but the simple answer to all this is not to respond. Just answer the questions people raise, and ignore the trolls. You don't HAVE to answer to these people, and if you feel you must, like I said, do it somewhere else. Please? >>> Jerry Irvine<01rocket@gte.net> 26/10/2004 21:34:20 >>> In article <djctn01qnfdkrn326likbgoib01keorlei@4ax.com>, Phil Stein <PStein@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote: > The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that > HPR isn't going away Oh, they did. They codified it to death and TRA and NAR assisted. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 In article <clmp63$9in$1@oyez.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>, "James Fowkes" <ppyyjadfantispam@antispamgwmail.nottingham.ac.uk> wrote: > Guys, this is ridiculous. I know I'm not the first person to complain about > it, and I won't be the last, but this is rec.models.rockets, not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And Jerry, I know it's hard to do, but the simple answer to all this is not > to respond. I have my non-response rate up to 70% now. I'm working on it. I am no longer the top poster last I checked. > Just answer the questions people raise, and ignore the trolls. > You don't HAVE to answer to these people, and if you feel you must, like I > said, do it somewhere else. The main problem being there is no elsewhere. > Please? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Oh, they did. They codified it to death and TRA and NAR assisted. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & quite whining. There's your f.cking answer - bitch. >Guys, this is ridiculous. I know I'm not the first person to complain about it, and I won't be the last, but this is rec.models.rockets, not rec.models.jerry.bashing. Eldred asks a question about rocketry, a question that is very interesting, and that I'd like to read about, and that I have to wade through all your piddling crap to find the answer to. If it's really that important to go over the same argument time and time again, can you do it elsewhere? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Oh, they did. They codified it to death and TRA and NAR assisted. > Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & > quite whining. > > There's your f.cking answer - bitch. Note how you alone felt compelled to FIGHT what this guy said? Everybody else did. Jerry > >Guys, this is ridiculous. I know I'm not the first person to complain about > >it, and I won't be the last, but this is rec.models.rockets, not [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > >Oh, they did. They codified it to death and TRA and NAR assisted. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & > > quite whining. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jerry Geez, I've completely forgot about phil stein. glad he is up to his excellent work keeping himself on my ignore list haven't seen a reply to dave gravis lately, others must have ignored him also SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & >quite whining. > >There's your f.cking answer - bitch. And *this* is supposed to draw more people to the hobby...? Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & > >quite whining. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Eldred He feels free to post this material over and over then he complains about me (with repetitive, harassing posts). There should be a law... Oh, wait, there is... SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > >Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & > >quite whining. > > > >There's your f.cking answer - bitch. > > And *this* is supposed to draw more people to the hobby...? Nah, that's just supposed to be Phil being Phil. -dave w > >Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & > >quite whining. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Eldred Eld, I think you just quoted me from months ago :) Jerry, while you are in no way close to what Phil is can you see your negative comments about the hobby will inspire a similar reaction? SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > > >Don't be a weenie, learn to word wrap. put a bigger motor in it & > > >quite whining. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Jerry, while you are in no way close to what Phil is can you see your > negative comments about the hobby will inspire a similar reaction? I can see my comments are a tiny response to far worse words and actions preceeding them, yes. Which is worse, the industrial accident or the hazmat crew response to "mop up"? :) Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >Eld, I think you just quoted me from months ago :) Oops, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to steal your material...<g> Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > Guys, this is ridiculous. I know I'm not the first person to complain about it, and I won't be the last, but this is rec.models.rockets, not rec.models.jerry.bashing. Eldred asks a question about rocketry, a question that is very interesting, and that I'd like to read about, and that I have to wade through all your piddling crap to find the answer to. If it's really that important to go over the same argument time and time again, can you do it elsewhere? James, look at your newsgroup readers options. somewher in there is a way to ignore certain peoples posts. after you get the hang of it, this group just explodes with information without the noise caused by a few people. For outlook express, you have to do two parts (if you want to ignore threads as well as people) first set it up to not to display messages that are ignored, second is to start marking people(and threads) to be ignored. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >> Guys, this is ridiculous. I know I'm not the first person to complain > about it, and I won't be the last, but this is rec.models.rockets, not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > first set it up to not to display messages that are ignored, second is to > start marking people(and threads) to be ignored. Great advice. Here's my list of the worst offenders that I have on ignore: Phil Stein Dave Grayvis Fred Wallace Ray Dunakin Periodically, I take them off ignore to see if their behavior has changed, but so far it just been a case of "old dogs, new tricks". If everyone would put them on ignore (including Jerry, so he wouldn't get sucked into responding) the board would clean up tremendously. Signature...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is" [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me] -------------------------------------------------------------- > Great advice. Here's my list of the worst offenders that I have on ignore: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If everyone would put them on ignore (including Jerry, so he wouldn't get > sucked into responding) the board would clean up tremendously. I go through long periods of manually ignoring them. I occasionally go on a rant. I am human. I do apologize in advance. But it is ME they are talking about. They ignore the foibles of their friends, no matter how severe or repetitive. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > >> Guys, this is ridiculous. I know I'm not the first person to complain > > about it, and I won't be the last, but this is rec.models.rockets, not [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > -- > ...The Bit Eimer Look you stupid f%$k, if jerky would shut his trap and quit complaining, the responses would respond accordingly. > > Periodically, I take them off ignore to see if their behavior has changed, > > but so far it just been a case of "old dogs, new tricks". > > > > If everyone would put them on ignore (including Jerry, so he wouldn't get > > sucked into responding) the board would clean up tremendously. > Look you stupid f%$k, if jerky would shut his trap and quit complaining, > the responses would respond accordingly. So I control YOUR behaviour? What college did you go to? Who was your mama? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > Periodically, I take them off ignore to see if their behavior has changed, > > > but so far it just been a case of "old dogs, new tricks". [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Jerry You are the geneses of RMR evil.. > > > > Periodically, I take them off ignore to see if their behavior has > > > > changed, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > You are the geneses of RMR evil.. So I control YOUR behaviour? Got a real answer (to the question I actually asked) for a change Fred?? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > > > Periodically, I take them off ignore to see if their behavior has > > > > > changed, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > -- > Jerry You did not ask a relevant or real question.. BTW how could you control my behavior? On the other hand, I do believe I had something to do with controlling your future illegal behavior..(;-) Parse that.. BTW, do you have new information to share with the group yet..?? Fred > BTW, do you have new information to share with the group yet..?? > > Fred About what specifically? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > BTW, do you have new information to share with the group yet..?? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jerry (:-)> >The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that >HPR isn't going away and that it isn't a bad thing. "Model rocket weenies"? Why do some people insist on insulting those who don't fly high power? Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East >>The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that >>HPR isn't going away and that it isn't a bad thing. > > "Model rocket weenies"? Why do some people insist on insulting those who > don't > fly high power? That's just one reason Mr. Stein is on my blocked sender list - he can't maintain a civil tone even when he's not flaming JI. Signature...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is" [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me] -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that >>>HPR isn't going away and that it isn't a bad thing. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >That's just one reason Mr. Stein is on my blocked sender list - he can't >maintain a civil tone even when he's not flaming JI. Yes Mr a.shole. > "Model rocket weenies"? Why do some people insist on insulting those who don't > fly high power? I hate to burst anyone's bubble but they are ALL model rockets and it doesn't matter how big or what power. No one I ever heard of on this group builds rockets to the same specs of any branch of the military or space agencies, i.e. NASA, EASA or otherwise. All of us build and fly model rockets, just different sizes. Randy > > "Model rocket weenies"? Why do some people insist on insulting those who > don't > > fly high power? > > I hate to burst anyone's bubble but they are ALL model rockets and it > doesn't matter how big or what power. Nope. They are all amateur rockets. Model Rocket is a LEGAL term with very specific restrictions. > No one I ever heard of on this group > builds rockets to the same specs of any branch of the military or space [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Randy SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Jerry put it more accurately... > Nope. They are all amateur rockets. > Model Rocket is a LEGAL term with very specific restrictions. Randy > I hate to burst anyone's bubble but they are ALL model rockets and it > doesn't matter how big or what power. No one I ever heard of on this group > builds rockets to the same specs of any branch of the military or space > agencies, i.e. NASA, EASA or otherwise. Actually, there's a few that do... Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > "Model rocket weenies"? Why do some people insist on insulting those who > don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > builds rockets to the same specs of any branch of the military or space > agencies, i.e. NASA, EASA or otherwise. Geez, at least give us time to dirty up or rocket shop a bit before we get to the REALLY big stuff And yes, we have plans to replicate some of the stuff NASA did SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > >The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that > >HPR isn't going away and that it isn't a bad thing. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Eldred In this case it is in the context of low power zealots (model rocket weenies) intentionally overregulating high power zealots by use of their longer and stronger political positions at regulatory meetings. That is why the HPR folks pulled a fast one and formed HPRMADA a manufacturers association one cannot even join because it is one guy who's sole purpose in life is to take up a voting seat on NFPA. Aerotech AND ISP too :) TRA Etc. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 I'm not insulting you. I am insulting the guys that say HPR is a bad thing. >>The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that >>HPR isn't going away and that it isn't a bad thing. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Eldred > I'm not insulting you. I am insulting the guys that say HPR is a bad > thing. I don't think HPR is a bad thing. (Most of the rockets I've flown are in that size range.) What I think is a bad thing is the way the original history of the "model rocket" movement has folks still being neurotic about categories: splitting hairs over exactly what does or doesn't constitute "high power" vs. "low power". -dave w > > I'm not insulting you. I am insulting the guys that say HPR is a bad > > thing. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -dave w And making up arbitrary rules which further blurr the line sometimes contrary to laws! Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > I'm not insulting you. I am insulting the guys that say HPR is a bad > thing. Which guys say, "HPR is a bad thing."? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Which guys say, "HPR is a bad thing."? Og say, LPR, good! HPR, good! All rockets good! Og > >The comsumer / model rocket weenies need to deal with the fact that > >HPR isn't going away and that it isn't a bad thing. > > "Model rocket weenies"? Why do some people insist on insulting those who don't > fly high power? Eld, watch an L launch sometime, you'll definently see where the mindset comes from. I really should aregue that the larger percentage of wennies Dont even know about HPR SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply By definition it is a high power rocket. It weighs more than 3.3 pounds. Bob Krech > By definition it is a high power rocket. It weighs more than 3.3 pounds. > > Bob Krech There's that, anyway... at which point G125's would be no extra "regulatory" burden. (Might as well use an AT 29/180 though... it's really just barely over a full G, and an H128 or H238 in a 4 pound rocket would be about right for a "level 1" flight anyway! Just join NAR and find two certified members to witness it, or one with a level 2...) -dave w > > By definition it is a high power rocket. It weighs more than 3.3 pounds. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > at which point G125's would be no extra "regulatory" burden. The G125 is a 29-120-BT > (Might as well use an AT 29/180 though... it's really just barely > over a full G, and an H128 or H238 in a 4 pound rocket would be > about right for a "level 1" flight anyway! Just join NAR and find > two certified members to witness it, or one with a level 2...) > > -dave w SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Just join NAR and find two certified members to witness it, or one with a level 2...) Only one of the NAR members needs to be certified. Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet http://roci.indyrockets.org "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded." >>Just join NAR and find two certified members to witness it, or one with a level 2...) > Only one of the NAR members needs to be certified. ... to the same level as being attempted. Both members of the certification team _must_ be certified. > Mario Perdue > NAR #22012 Sr. L2 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded." SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz > > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:06:01 -0700, David Weinshenker > > <daze39@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Both members of the certification team _must_ be certified. Hmmm.... the following is excerpted from what the NAR website says about requirements for "Certification Teams": 2. At least one of the team members must be already certified to a level equal to the certification level being attempted, e.g., a team member must be certified at Level 1 to judge another individual's Level 1 certification attempt. 3. Level 1 certifications may be administered by a single NAR Level 2 certified individual. The two certified individuals requirement is waived in this case. (Source: http://nar.org/hpcert/NARhpdetails.html ) -dave w <snip> > Hmmm.... the following is excerpted from what the NAR website says about > requirements for "Certification Teams": [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > waived in > this case. Boy is that confusing language. #2 is clear that only one of the of the two needs to be certified. #3 then suggests that there is somehow a "two certified individuals" requirement that is being waived. Signature...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is" [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me] -------------------------------------------------------------- > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > #3 then suggests that there is somehow a "two certified individuals" > requirement that is being waived. You're right... it is slightly ambiguous ("two witnesses") but the intent is clear: a single level 2 member can sign off on a level 1 attempt. Which is the real reason to build a suitably-sized rocket, go to a proper "big-field" HPR launch wherever you can find one, and do a level 2 flight (even if you don't usually plan to fly that big): then you can witness level 1 flights for all your friends! -dave w > .... ("two witnesses") ... Oops, coorection... that should have been: ("two witnesses" would have been a better way to put it) -dave w > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > #3 then suggests that there is somehow a "two certified individuals" > requirement that is being waived. Welcome to NAR. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Both members of the certification team _must_ be certified. You might want to read the NAR web site 1. The certification team consists of two individuals who are a minimum of 18 years old and are members in good standing of the NAR. The certification team members must be unrelated to the applicant. Members of Tripoli, unless they are also members of the NAR, cannot participate on a certification team. 2. At least one of the team members must be already certified to a level equal to the certification level being attempted, e.g., a team member must be certified at Level 1 to judge another individual's Level 1 certification attempt. Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet http://roci.indyrockets.org "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded." not quite. I remember reading this in detail whats needed (for level 1 at least) one NAR member, certified to level 2 two NAR members, with one certified to level 1 SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:06:01 -0700, David Weinshenker > > <daze39@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission > concluded." >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages. sure >you cant make it lighter? Nor really - it's a modroc. The original item weighs about 3.5 lbs, and I figured maybe another half pound for fins, recovery, engine mounts, etc. Of course, depending on how much of the inner material I drill out, I could bring the weight down more. *Told* ya I have a few weird ideas...<g> Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages. sure > >you cant make it lighter? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the weight down more. > *Told* ya I have a few weird ideas...<g> you are confusing me, I think you meant to say "oddroc" Anyway, if the main outer structure is a cardboard tube, you could use it as a sacrificial mandrel to get one of the parts much lighter than before. reason I mention this: lot of new modelers to our group seem to drag out carpet tubes and such from just about anywhere. before I had to tell then that they couldn't because the weight was always too high. after seeing the Fiasco called "rocket challenge" on discovery, I see that they can be used to create light, strong fiberglass tubes to make large, light rockets. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > > >sounds interesting, but 88 newtons starts getting into the HPR stages. > sure [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Fiasco called "rocket challenge" on discovery, I see that they can be used > to create light, strong fiberglass tubes to make large, light rockets. I sell sacrificial mandrels now. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >you are confusing me, I think you meant to say "oddroc" You are correct - I mis-spoke... :-( >Anyway, if the main outer structure is a cardboard tube, you could use it as >a sacrificial mandrel to get one of the parts much lighter than before. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Fiasco called "rocket challenge" on discovery, I see that they can be used >to create light, strong fiberglass tubes to make large, light rockets. Haven't worked with fiberglass yet, but I'm sure it'll happen... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East if you can mix epoxy you can fiberglass tubes scratch that, if you can mix epoxy and paint with a brush you can fiberglass tubes yes, it is that simple. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > >you are confusing me, I think you meant to say "oddroc" > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Eldred > Nor really - it's a modroc. The original item weighs about 3.5 lbs, and I > figured maybe another half pound for fins, recovery, engine mounts, etc. Of > course, depending on how much of the inner material I drill out, I could bring > the weight down more. If it weights over 1500g it's HPR no matter what size motor it has in it. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > Nor really - it's a modroc. The original item weighs about 3.5 lbs, and I > > figured maybe another half pound for fins, recovery, engine mounts, etc. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > If it weights over 1500g it's HPR no matter what size motor it has in it. Or an "Amateur rocket". NOT necessarily HPR, but necessarily NOT MR. In legal matters details matter and literal matters. That's why so many folks simply do not understand either the law or the recent ATF judgement IMHO. NAR and TRA Presidents included! Their joint statements absolutely prove that. > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Eldred, Are you thinking Level 1??? ;-) Kathy > If I wanted to build a rocket that would end up a little over 4 pounds, how do > I calculate how strong of an engine(or cluster) I need? > > Eldred >Eldred, > >Are you thinking Level 1??? ;-) I *wasn't*, not for this project.<g> Besides, it's not a real rocket, so I couldn't do a Level one with that... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East Yeah 88's kinda alot! Even tho' my outboard cluster is over 100ns IIRC. To work out if your rocket will be lifted by your design, try using Rocksim, then you can alter things before you actually build it. 5:Always go off the 5:1 thrust to weight ratio! Karl > If I wanted to build a rocket that would end up a little over 4 pounds, how do > I calculate how strong of an engine(or cluster) I need? > > Eldred I would really encourage you to get Rocksim, the demo Rocksin (free), some other simulation software, or break out the calculator to test your design, especially if it's a four pounder. The 5:1 average thrust to weight ratio is just a guideline and does not specifically address things like peak thrust, launch rod/rail length, or ejection delays; things you need to consider. Most model rockets come off the pad with much more than 5g acceleration in order to reach minimum stability velocity, about 13 m/s, within the length of the launch rod. Your rocket/motor/rod combimation must also meet the minimum stable velocity requirement; 5:1 may not make it with practical rod lengths. Oversimplified analysis: Consider a "heavy" 100 gm model on a C6 motor. The peak thrust of a C6 is about 14 N. The rocket weighs about 1 N, giving a total force of about 13 N. Since a = F / m, the rocket will accelerate at about: a = 13 N / .1 kg a = 130 m/s^2 It will reach 13 m/s in about 1/10 of a second and have traveled .65 meters (still on the 1 m launch rod). (IF the peak thrust is instantaneous and lasts for 1/10 of a second. I know, I know.) A 5:1 thrust ratio would give an initial acceleration of about 50 m/s^2 and take about a quarter second to hit 13 m/s. It would have traveled about 1.6 meters in that time, meaning it would have left the launch rod BEFORE attaining minimum stable velocity. All Estes BP motors have an initial peak thrust higher than their average thrust rating; this gets the models up to speed quickly and validates the 5:1 guideline. Composite motors may NOT have higher initial thrusts than their average ratings and this is important in selecting a particular motor for a particular rocket mass (NOT weight). SignatureGary Bolles summum jus, summa injuria est To contact me; bollesg at comcast dot net http://home.comcast.net/~bollesg/rockets/rockets.html Help make r.m.r. a No Flame Zone >Oversimplified analysis: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >a = 13 N / .1 kg >a = 130 m/s^2 *That* was oversimplified? Man, I need to get some sleep. I saved it, and I'll read it again in the morning...<g> Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East >>Oversimplified analysis: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Eldred Yeah, its a simplified first approximation with no drag, no friction, and instant motor thrust build up. Real life is worse. The point I was trying to make is that a true 5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio does not guarantee stable velocity off of typical launch rods. I assume you will be using composite motors in a 4 pound (HPR) rocket and some composites DO have flat thrust curves; the peak thrust is almost equal to the average thrust. Some composites even burn in a progressive manner, ie, the thrust starts low and gets higher as it burns. Check out the curves at: http://www.thrustcurve.org/ Bottom line; you don't want a four pound cruise missle or land shark. Match your rocket mass to your motor thrust AND launch rod/rail length, with a little extra of each for safety. Good luck on the project. Got any pictures? SignatureGary Bolles summum jus, summa injuria est To contact me; bollesg at comcast dot net http://home.comcast.net/~bollesg/rockets/rockets.html Help make r.m.r. a No Flame Zone >Bottom line; you don't want a four pound cruise missle or land shark. >Match your rocket mass to your motor thrust AND launch rod/rail length, >with a little extra of each for safety. > >Good luck on the project. Got any pictures? No pictures - it's still just a dumb 'concept'... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > >Bottom line; you don't want a four pound cruise missle or land shark. > >Match your rocket mass to your motor thrust AND launch rod/rail length, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No pictures - it's still just a dumb 'concept'... Dont be negative! we wanna see! we wanna help! SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply >> No pictures - it's still just a dumb 'concept'... > >Dont be negative! we wanna see! we wanna help! I wasn't being negative - I just haven't developed it past the 'concept' stage yet. If I do, I'll be certain to post pictures and a flight report. :-) Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East > If I wanted to build a rocket that would end up a little over 4 pounds, > how do > I calculate how strong of an engine(or cluster) I need? I've seen Mini Maggs fly great on pro38 G69 motors. |
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