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Model Forum / General / Rockets / October 2004horizontal takeoff / horizontal boost gliders?
Has anyone done any significant rocket glider work using rocket thrust to power an aero-lifting vehicle (f/f or r/c) in horizontal flight or takeoff? (One possibility might be to launch a glider with a "high start" or "winch" towline system, and then fire the rocket with a radio channel...) I realize this is outside the scope of conventional "sport rocketry boost glider/rocket glider" flight (i.e, boost under rocket power, glide recovery) and is more like "model airplane flight, except with rocket propulsion". Hmmm.... scale Me163 with mega mission points for modeling the HTHL flight profile? If you did the "A" model (instead of the later bipropellant "B" model), peroxide decomposition would be the completely authentic propellant to use (as well as being the most amenable to throttling, on a small scale, off a simple r/c-servo-driven valve.) -dave w Has anyone done any significant rocket glider work using rocket thrust to power an aero-lifting vehicle (f/f or r/c) in horizontal flight or takeoff? (One possibility might be to launch a glider with a "high start" or "winch" towline system, and then fire the rocket with a radio channel...) <<<<<< In the late 70's I did a couple of free flight rocket boosted gliders that had wheels. Took off from a deserted road used as the runway. The gliders were 36-40" in span, one used a foam wing from Ace R/C meant for R/C planes. Power ranged from a C6 up to an FSI E5. The E5 in the foam-winged model was the best, really nice. Fortunately the models turned out to have just about the right trim so they would take off and climb but not climb so fast that they would loop under thrust (had the engine thrust a few inches above the wing to help give some nose down thrust). There have been some R/C model airplane fliers who have done Me-163's. In the early to mid-90's, R/C Modeler had an article on one that was 100% rocket boosted, using an HPR motor (An H or I). Took off horizontally, using the scale dolly (which IIRC was dropped during climb). In order to account for the burn off of the propellant weight in the back, it had water ballast in the nose. It was a balloon tank that was unplugged once it got moving along the ground. I used that idea with my X-1 model, though it had a fixed shell tank for the water and drained by gravity. Info on my X-1 is here: http://members.aol.com/GCGassaway/X1.htm About 2-3 weeks ago, I saw an issue of "Fly R/C" magazine that had an Me-163 on the cover, taking off, with rocket flame behind it. Turned out that one was primarily driven by a model airplane engine with propeller, but it used a G40 for the horizontal takeoff to add realism and help get it airborne. Maybe that issue is still on the stands, might be too late. As for air-starts, there's been at least a couple of major R/C projects using a B-29/B-50 R/C model to drop an X-1 which then ignited a model rocket engine inside. John Kallend's "Ladyhawk" design (Plans in R/C Modeler in the early 90's) had two engine mounts. One for liftoff on a 24mm engine, and one for air-starting a second engine during the glide. And this summer, I did the "Orbital SkyDart Project". A R/C 2X scaled up Estes SkyDart (made in 1999) carried piggyback on a special winged booster with Orbital Transport style markings. With the SkyDart air-starting an engine. So far the flights have been more like staging, igniting the SkyDart's engine before the winged booster's twin G12's burned out. But next summer I'll be trying out some air-starts during horizontal glide. http://members.aol.com/RBGliders/OSP/OSP.htm BTW - there is a safety code for R/C RBG models. It covers air-starts. What it doesn't allow is horizontal takeoffs, but horizontal air-starts from a safe altitude is OK. http://www.nar.org/NARrcrbgsc.html - George Gassaway > Has anyone done any significant rocket glider work > using rocket thrust to power an aero-lifting vehicle [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -dave w I do not think there are any rules against using a hi-start in scale or sport scale since it is not a performance event. Jerry  SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 I flew quite a few of those in the old days. I made numerous free flights that went off a rod about 25 degrees from the horizontal. Then I made a series of R/C ones first for rail and dolly takeoffs, then finally for handlaunch with an R/C airstart about 100 feet in front of me. The hand launch just about doubled the performance just because it didn't have to start from zero speed. Finally I made an "augmented handlaunched glider". It was a little F/F HLG with a motor mounted on a pylon above the wing. It had an electrolytic capacitor and a little conducting spring that you put your finger under for launch. When the spring snapped down it completed the circuit and flashcube-lit a mini motor. That thing was amazing. You'd give it a hard launch into a right-hand spiral like a regular HLG. The motor would start about 30 feet away and that thing would spiral up two or three hundred feet. That thing was a joy, because all you needed at the field was it, you, a 9V battery to charge the capacitor (instantly), and a pack of mini motors. That thing had so much potential, but I eventually just let it go because there really wasn't anywhere to fly it. RE > I do not think there are any rules against using a hi-start in scale or > sport scale since it is not a performance event. You are wrong. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > I do not think there are any rules against using a hi-start in scale or > > sport scale since it is not a performance event. > > You are wrong. bob, double check the AMA rules. I know it is agains NAR rules for launching horizontal, but the AMA rules are "different" Cant remember them offhand. but I think a mid-air launch was allowed, so using a highstart along with mid-air ignition would work. I've seen them do a re-enactment of the X-1 so I don't see how this would be any different. SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply > > In article <01rocket-764361.05183427102004@corp.supernews.com>, Jerry > Irvine <01rocket@gte.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bob, double check the AMA rules. I know it is agains NAR rules for launching > horizontal, but the AMA rules are "different" scale or sport scale are NAR events and Kaplow is a Pink Book lawyer. So I believe him. > Cant remember them offhand. but I think a mid-air launch was allowed, so > using a highstart along with mid-air ignition would work. I've seen them do > a re-enactment of the X-1 so I don't see how this would be any different. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > > In article <01rocket-764361.05183427102004@corp.supernews.com>, Jerry > > Irvine <01rocket@gte.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > scale or sport scale are NAR events and Kaplow is a Pink Book lawyer. So > I believe him. my bad, I confused "sport scale" with "sport flying" SignatureTater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply I accept no ones word at "face value" when they reply with a pathetically simple "your wrong" cite your proof please. its not that I do not believe you but I would like to read the pertinent rules governing this. it makes sense for performance events but what rules prevent you using a "high start" etc.. in sport scale or R&D etc.. Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/ > I accept no ones word at "face value" when they reply with a pathetically > simple "your wrong" Except he is an authority on the topic. > cite your proof please. its not that I do not believe you but I would like > to read the pertinent rules governing this. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Chris Taylor > http://www.nerys.com/ SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >I accept no ones word at "face value" when they reply with a pathetically >simple "your wrong" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >it makes sense for performance events but what rules prevent you using a >"high start" etc.. in sport scale or R&D etc.. The general NAR competition rule is something like, "A launcher must not impart any velocity or change of momentum except that caused by the medle rocket engine(s) contained in the model." You can look up the exact rule yourself. However, you might be a ble to get away with it in R&D. Alan >Chris Taylor >http://www.nerys.com/ ahh so this rule is a general rule ie applying to all events ? then it would make sense although I really think some of these rules should be omitted for non performance events. I also think ANY safety certified motor should be permitted for non performance based events like R&D and Scale (except scale altitude since its performance based) Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/ > >I accept no ones word at "face value" when they reply with a pathetically > >simple "your wrong" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Chris Taylor > >http://www.nerys.com/ > ahh so this rule is a general rule ie applying to all events ? > > then it would make sense although I really think some of these rules should > be omitted for non performance events. Isn't there also a rule that says an RSO can waive a rule or the CB director at NAR can? I seem to recall making an application to CB Bundick for 40/40 sport scale (minimum 40ns) which he summarily rejected of course. He also refused to let me run two open contests concurrently, which was within the rules. BTW. Jerry > I also think ANY safety certified motor should be permitted for non > performance based events like R&D and Scale (except scale altitude since its [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > >Chris Taylor > > >http://www.nerys.com/ SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Isn't there also a rule that says an RSO can waive a rule or the CB > director at NAR can? I seem to recall making an application to CB > Bundick for 40/40 sport scale (minimum 40ns) which he summarily rejected > of course. He also refused to let me run two open contests concurrently, > which was within the rules. BTW. Many years ago here was a rule that allowed special rules ONLY AT NARAM. Of all the places to allow this NARAM was the worst possible choice. The few times it was done, it was really screwed up. Contest directors can not impose additional rules, such as no composite motors, or minimum power class on any event. If you wnat NAR points, you have to follow NAR rules. What you do for fun events is up to you. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > > Isn't there also a rule that says an RSO can waive a rule or the CB > > director at NAR can? I seem to recall making an application to CB [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > motors, or minimum power class on any event. If you wnat NAR points, you > have to follow NAR rules. What you do for fun events is up to you. That doesn't explain why you cannot run two open meets in one day. This because the average participant travel time was 6 hours. Average! > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > ahh so this rule is a general rule ie applying to all events ? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > performance based events like R&D and Scale (except scale altitude since its > performance based) I agree with this change. For example it would allow the F21 in PMC or SCALE. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. >>it makes sense for performance events but what rules prevent you using a >>"high start" etc.. in sport scale or R&D etc.. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the exact rule yourself. However, you might be a ble to get away with > it in R&D. That's the rule. 5.5. Yes, in R&D you can not only get away with violating pink book rules, but even the safety code! Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > I accept no ones word at "face value" when they reply with a pathetically > simple "your wrong" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it makes sense for performance events but what rules prevent you using a > "high start" etc.. in sport scale or R&D etc.. 5.5 The Paul Hans rule. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. >> In article <01rocket-764361.05183427102004@corp.supernews.com>, Jerry > Irvine <01rocket@gte.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bob, double check the AMA rules. I know it is agains NAR rules for launching > horizontal, but the AMA rules are "different" Jerry was talking about NAR rules, not AMA. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > >> In article <01rocket-764361.05183427102004@corp.supernews.com>, Jerry > > Irvine <01rocket@gte.net> writes: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jerry was talking about NAR rules, not AMA. According to the AMA National Model Rocket Safety Code 12. LAUNCH ANGLE - I will not launch rockets so that their flight path will carry them against targets. My launch device will be pointed within 30 degrees of the vertical. I will never use model rocket engines to propel any device horizontally. Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet http://roci.indyrockets.org "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded." > According to the AMA National Model Rocket Safety Code > 12. LAUNCH ANGLE - I will not launch rockets so that their flight path > will carry them against targets. My launch device will be pointed > within 30 degrees of the vertical. I will never use model rocket > engines to propel any device horizontally. Well you coudl still high start, pull up, and then fire the motor. Like John Kallend does with his Ladyhawk second motor. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org 26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil. > Has anyone done any significant rocket glider work > using rocket thrust to power an aero-lifting vehicle > (f/f or r/c) in horizontal flight or takeoff? Here's a link with photos and video of an RC plane powered solely by an Aerotech H motor, which takes off from the ground like a regular plane, not from a launch pad like a typical rocket glider: http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/rc02.htm ...Rick Cool video - too bad they don't show it landing. Maybe there's a reason? :^( Signature...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is" [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me] -------------------------------------------------------------- >> Has anyone done any significant rocket glider work >> using rocket thrust to power an aero-lifting vehicle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ...Rick > > Has anyone done any significant rocket glider work > > using rocket thrust to power an aero-lifting vehicle [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/rc02.htm Wow, neat! -dave w Thanks for the link. That is really cool! SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://home.alltel.net/jm44316/ > > Has anyone done any significant rocket glider work > > using rocket thrust to power an aero-lifting vehicle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ...Rick >Thanks for the link. That is really cool! > >Rick Dunseith" <rick@dunseith.com> wrote... >> http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/rc02.htm Well, if you liked that, here are a couple of links for another very cool RC plane. No rocket motors are used here, but we're all modelling aircraft of one kind or another, aren't we? So it's not hard to appreciate the effort and skill that went into building and flying (and, alas, eventually crashing) this magnificent model: <>http://www.stukastudios.se/b52.htm <>http://balsabusters2.warp0.com/B52M.html <> It's been said that the RC plane's crash bears an uncanny resemblance to the unfortunate crash of a real B-52 at an air show: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/B-52%20Crash.mpg Here's a comment on the real crash, from a former B-52 pilot: "The B-52 in a steep turn at low airspeed loses roll control, resulting in a natural over-banking tendency. The small rudder authority is unable keep the nose from dropping, nor can it pick up the lower wing. B-52s do not have conventional ailerons, but spoilers on the upper wing surface similar to the MU-2. The first flashes of light seen prior to impact is the lower wing contacting high power transmission lines in the area." And finally, if you're interested, here's a case study on the real crash and the failures that led to it: http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/crmdevel/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm ...Rick > Well, if you liked that, here are a couple of links for another very > cool RC plane... > http://www.stukastudios.se/b52.htm > http://balsabusters2.warp0.com/B52M.html Hmmm. It appears that the first link may have bandwidth issues. If you're having trouble accessing it, perseverence should eventually get you through to the site, and it's worth the effort. ...Rick >>Well, if you liked that, here are a couple of links for another very >>cool RC plane... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ...Rick And believe me, it's worth it! Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 that has got to be one of the sadest things I have ever seen happen to a model. any word on what went wrong ? Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/ > >>Well, if you liked that, here are a couple of links for another very > >>cool RC plane... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > TRA#5512 > IEAS#75 >>>Well, if you liked that, here are a couple of links for another very >>>cool RC plane... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >And believe me, it's worth it! Oh, man...what went wrong? Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East >>>>Well, if you liked that, here are a couple of links for another very >>>>cool RC plane... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Eldred No idea what went wrong but I did download the whole thing(27mg) prior to any troubles. It's about 8 minutes long. Be great if I could email it.... Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 >Here's a link with photos and video of an RC plane powered solely by >an Aerotech H motor, which takes off from the ground like a regular >plane, not from a launch pad like a typical rocket glider: > >http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/rc02.htm Cool... Eldred Signaturehttp://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East |
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