BATF Stuff...
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James Duffy - 28 Oct 2004 04:51 GMT David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court hearing to the DARS list.
James Duffy jduffy@mac.com
___________________________________
(From David Schultz)
Curiosity finally overwhelmed me on the latest BATFE lawsuit happenings. So I went to the Federal District Court of Columbia web site, established a PACER account, and checked the recently filed documents.
The court denied the NAR/TRA motion in a document posted on the 19th. Which if you look at the previous documents was not a surprise. The NAR/TRA took the position that the summary judgment earlier this year meant that all fully assembled rocket motors were exempt as Propellant Actuated Devices (PADs). This was clearly not the case.
The judge ruled earlier this year that the BATFE's change in position from the 1994 letter was invalid because it did not go through the proper rule making process. If anyone actually read that letter (attached to court filings) they would have read:
"The Aerotech products which have been classified by the Department of Transportation as a flammable solid 4.1 or as explosives 1.4c, which are within the 62.5 grams limit contained in NFPA 1122 and conform to the requirements of model rocket motors as set forth in 16 CFR section 1500.85(a)(8)(ii), would meet the ATF requirements for exemption under 27 CFR Part 55, section 141(a)(8)."
(The full text of this document is available on the TRA web site.)
141(a)(8) being the PAD exemption. Notice the other restrictions placed on this by the BATFE. Any motor not meeting the requirements of the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) are regulated under this interpretation. This limits the exemption as PAD's to assembled motors with no more than 80 N-s total impulse ("F" motors) and no more than 62.5 grams propellant.
This leaves us in a really bad position. Some motors that were exempt under the now vanished exemption for toy propellant devices are _not_ exempt under this PAD ruling. Single use "G" motors aren't exempt as PAD's. No reload is exempt as
a PAD under this criteria. So the limits in the FAQ that the BATFE recently published are actually more leniant than required by the 1994 letter.
It was nice to fantasize about the judge slapping the BATFE down. But it was just a fantasy.
In addition to the judge's ruling there were a couple of other documents filed by the BATFE. The more interesting of these was an affidavit from the inspector who performed the permit renewal inspection at Al's Hobbies that was cited by the NAR/TRA.
Al's Hobbies was cited for a raft of violations. Some of which were minor but many were major problems.
They were cited for not having their magazine secured in the correct fashion. Their magazine has a single unhooded padlock and the room it is stored in is not secured as required (two hooded padlocks, or.... you know the drill). This is absolutely correct but it does bring up the point that this magazine had to have been approved by a previous BATFE inspector.
There was a long discussion about this locking issue on the THPRA list a while back. When I expressed my opinion that the above lock requirement was correct, several people disagreed with me. I think that perhaps some permitees in Texas might have had magazines approved with this one lock configuration. I strongly suggest that you read the BATFE's position on this in the last Explosive's Newsletter. Then take notice of the above action against Al's Hobbies and be prepared to alter your locking arrangement when the BATFE notices their screw-up.
They were also cited for having 140 pounds of explosives stored in a type 4 indoor magazine when the limit is 50 pounds. Only about 11 pounds fell into the contested PAD category.
They had numerous paperwork violations. Failure to record information. Inconsistancies between acquisition, disposition, and magazine logs.
Some of the violations listed caused me to ask some questions. Such as just what are the "date shift codes" which were cited as being missing from acquisition records among others? The regulations require you to record the date but never mention a "date shift code".
And for everyone who has a permit and is thinking of assisting a non permit holder in flying their rocket we have this ominous pronouncement:
"Licensee was cautioned against taking orders for rocket motors from individuals not Federally licensed/permitted and subsequently shipping/delivering them to a different individual who is Federally licensed/permitted as this may unwittingly be aiding in trafficking explosives to prohibited individuals. Licenses/permits issued to individuals are for the sole use of the named individual."
Which resulted from Al's Hobby shop entering a non-permitees name in their records and delivering (so they claim) to a permitee.
Given this long list of violations, Al's Hobby shop should be quite happy that the BATFE is working with them to clear up the problems rather than taking more serious actions.
The last document filed in the case is a motion requesting the judge to issue a final ruling on count 1 of the lawsuit so that the NAR/TRA may proceed with an appeal on that issue. In case anyone forgot, that count is about the explosiveness of APCP.
Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web site.
Greg Cisko - 28 Oct 2004 07:08 GMT So why are we finding out about this in this forum in this manner??? If this is true should we not have been updated on the progress (or lack there of) as we have been in the past?
I mean really... What is going on here? Are you sure this is for real? If it is I would assume Bunny would have told us by now... Did I miss an announcement by Bunny? If so then I apologize for questioning the system. If this is not what it seems than I also apologize.
If this is for real, then whoa you have got to be joking...
If this story is true... time to jack up the senior dues (without telling anyone again) I suppose. Very sad.
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court > hearing to the DARS list. [quoted text clipped - 146 lines] > Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web > site. Jerry Irvine - 28 Oct 2004 15:38 GMT > So why are we finding out about this in this forum in this > manner??? If this is true should we not have been updated > on the progress (or lack there of) as we have been in the > past? Beacuse NAR and TRA have f.cked up both strategy and tactics and are slow to release such details.
> I mean really... What is going on here? Are you sure this is > for real? If it is I would assume Bunny would have told us [quoted text clipped - 179 lines] > > Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web > > site.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Phil Stein - 28 Oct 2004 19:07 GMT >Beacuse NAR and TRA have f.cked up both strategy and tactics and are >slow to release such details. It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the situation.
RayDunakin - 28 Oct 2004 20:36 GMT Jerry wrote: << Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>>
Jerry, we've already seen how your strategy and tactics worked with DOT, and the DOT doesn't even have the ATF's antagonism toward rocketry.
<< ...and are slow to release such details. >>
They're going over everything with the lawyers instead of shooting off at the mouth. That's the smart move.
W. E. Fred Wallace - 28 Oct 2004 21:57 GMT > Jerry wrote: > << Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They're going over everything with the lawyers instead of shooting off at the > mouth. That's the smart move. Or in "Big Fine"s" case, talking out his A$$>>
Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 00:27 GMT > Jerry wrote: > << Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They're going over everything with the lawyers instead of shooting off at the > mouth. That's the smart move. And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone? How do you know this? As I recall, good news recently was transmitted quickly was it not? I claim it should get the same scrutiny. Otherwise what are we talking about here?
Good news = release quickly Bad news = get your story straight for a week +
At least that is how it seems to me.
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 00:34 GMT > > Jerry wrote: > > << Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>> > > > > Jerry, we've already seen how your strategy and tactics worked with DOT, My strategy is transparant and everybody here has ready access to see it. As far as it has progressed so far in 3.5 years.
> and > > the DOT doesn't even have the ATF's antagonism toward rocketry. You are totally wrong.
> > << ...and are slow to release such details. >> > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone? TRA and NAR are slow to release. Typically a week+. If it takes longer than that from the time they actually have the pleadings in their hands then you know they are dragging their feet.
Their BS joint statement ought to be entertaining and counterproductive. Something about weight limits and sport motors not being exempt despite the law and the judge's order.
> How > do you know this? As I recall, good news recently was transmitted [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > At least that is how it seems to me.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
RayDunakin - 29 Oct 2004 06:53 GMT gcisko wrote: << And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone?>>
Yes.
<< How do you know this? >>
Common sense led me to that conclusion, and my conclusion was confirmed on the TRA list.
Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 07:48 GMT > gcisko wrote: > << And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone?>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Common sense led me to that conclusion, and my conclusion was confirmed on the > TRA list. And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. Is that not true?
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
RayDunakin - 29 Oct 2004 17:05 GMT << And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >>
Good news requires less processing. Why is that so hard to understand?
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 17:49 GMT > << And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >> > > Good news requires less processing. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you "make up" excuses for actions you are not party to, in the loop of, or experienced in?
Jerry
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Dave Grayvis - 29 Oct 2004 18:06 GMT >><< And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jerry jerry, Why do you "make up" excuses for actions you are not party to, in the loop of, or experienced in?
Phil Stein - 29 Oct 2004 19:36 GMT >> << And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Jerry Yeah. When you've been found guilty or in violation as many times as Jerry, then you are an expert.
Greg Cisko - 30 Oct 2004 00:20 GMT Actually I would think good and bad news would require the same time to properly process.
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
> << And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >> > > Good news requires less processing. Why is that so hard to understand? RayDunakin - 30 Oct 2004 05:47 GMT gcisko wrote: << Actually I would think good and bad news would require the same time to properly process. >>
Not necessarily. Good news is usually pretty obvious, and doesn't require much (if any) investigation to find out what options are available to us.
Greg Cisko - 30 Oct 2004 07:49 GMT In your opinion. I happen to believe any information needs to be gone through equally to ensure it is what it is. Quickly releasing what is originally seen as "good" info while holding back and getting your story straight on "bad" info seems kind of short sighted IMHO. Now I am not saying that is for sure what is happening here. But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just have the facts of transpired events to look at.
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
> gcisko wrote: > << Actually I would think good and bad news would require the same time to > properly process. >> > > Not necessarily. Good news is usually pretty obvious, and doesn't require much > (if any) investigation to find out what options are available to us. RayDunakin - 30 Oct 2004 20:37 GMT gcisko wrote: << But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just have the facts of transpired events to look at. >>
Isn't that what you're asking for, when you say you want the information released quickly without taking the time to go over it with legal counsel?
Greg Cisko - 31 Oct 2004 00:21 GMT > gcisko wrote: > << But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just have > the facts of transpired events to look at. >> > > Isn't that what you're asking for, when you say you want the information > released quickly without taking the time to go over it with legal counsel? HAHAHA!!!!
I never said I wanted info released quickly. Duh I was assuming you can read and reason properly. I mean really - you are really having a freaking problem with this. I said I thought any info should be given the same consideration.
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:24 GMT > > gcisko wrote: > > << But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > problem with this. I said I thought any info should be given the same > consideration. Because he is Ray Dunakin.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Greg Cisko - 31 Oct 2004 04:48 GMT > > I never said I wanted info released quickly. Duh I was assuming you can > > read and reason properly. I mean really - you are really having a freaking > > problem with this. I said I thought any info should be given the same > > consideration. > > Because he is Ray Dunakin. Hey I thought he was cool. I never imagined he would get all freaked out and sh$t. Whatever.
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
RayDunakin - 31 Oct 2004 05:06 GMT gcisko wrote: << I mean really - you are really having a freaking problem with this. >>
Not me. You wanted to know why "bad" news takes longer, I explained it, period.
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 05:44 GMT > gcisko wrote: > << I mean really - you are really having a freaking problem with this. >> > > Not me. You wanted to know why "bad" news takes longer, I explained it, > period. Assumes facts not in evidence.
The news is neutral.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
David Weinshenker - 31 Oct 2004 06:08 GMT > Assumes facts not in evidence. > The news is neutral. I think the real message of the present ruling is that things have been taken as far as far as they can with "motions for summary judgements" and stuff and it's about time to have a proper argument over what's left...
-dave w
RayDunakin - 31 Oct 2004 19:17 GMT Jerry Irvine wrote: << The news is neutral. >>
Simply reporting what happened isn't the whole story. People are going to want to know what the lawyers have to say about it, what next step is, etc. Without that info, we end up with people jumping to ridiculous conclusions ("Oh no, the Feds are gonna bust down my door 'cause I have a G motor!")
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:23 GMT > gcisko wrote: > << But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just have > the facts of transpired events to look at. >> > > Isn't that what you're asking for, when you say you want the information > released quickly without taking the time to go over it with legal counsel? It is a public document Ray.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 00:23 GMT Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-) And if this whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As I recall "good" news in this regard is transmitted very quickly - at least it certainly was last time. I am hoping for an explainable delay...
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
> >Beacuse NAR and TRA have f.cked up both strategy and tactics and are > >slow to release such details. > > It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the > situation. Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 00:34 GMT > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-) Exactly.
> And if this > whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the > > situation.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
W. E. Fred Wallace - 29 Oct 2004 00:49 GMT > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-) Yep, jerry is good at keeping it real; "Real expensive". (;-)
> And if this whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As > I recall "good" news in this regard is transmitted very > quickly - at least it certainly was last time. I am hoping > for an explainable delay...
> "Phil Stein" <PStein@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote in message
> > It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the > > situation. Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 01:17 GMT > > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-) > > Yep, jerry is good at keeping it real; "Real expensive". (;-) That's nothing as compared to the cost-benefit of the NAR/TRA lawsuit.
> > And if this whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As > > I recall "good" news in this regard is transmitted very [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the > > > situation.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
W. E. Fred Wallace - 29 Oct 2004 03:28 GMT > > > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-) > > > > Yep, jerry is good at keeping it real; "Real expensive". (;-) > > That's nothing as compared to the cost-benefit of the NAR/TRA lawsuit. Do you expect us to believe your "BIG FINE" was a cost benefit to rocketry, in any form??
ROTFLMAO..
> Jerry Fred
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 03:33 GMT > > > > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-) > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Fred It was a FAR lower cost and neutral to the industry at large.
The NAR/TRA suit is a HUGE cost and potentially a HUGE buttfuck to the industry.
If only they would fixate on the obvious, we would be fine. 27 CFR 555.141-a-8 is broad, and exempts those items from the entirety of Part 55. It really is that simple.
Jerry
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Chris Taylor Jr - 29 Oct 2004 05:58 GMT except that it would take a simple rule revision to eliminate your exemption which they do not recognize anyway.
the judge has already essentially ruled that they are allowed to determine what a PAD is making YOUR 27 CFR whatever a moot issue.
what say you ?
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/
> > > > > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-) > > > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com > Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 12:45 GMT > except that it would take a simple rule revision to eliminate your exemption > which they do not recognize anyway. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > what say you ? Where is NPRM 968? In a black hole or dead?
The responses to that were intense and killer.
Jerry
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Kevin Trojanowski - 28 Oct 2004 07:41 GMT [..snip for brevity...]
> They were cited for not having their magazine secured in the correct > fashion. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have > been approved by a previous BATFE inspector. When you read this, keep in mind the affadavit from Kenneth Herrick of Al's Hobbies, specifically items 4:
"I was also informed that the locks on the doors of the store premises were insufficient, although these are the same locks that have been in place during previous ATF inspections (and there is an electronic burglar system in place). Additionally, the acceptability of the locker we have been using for over six years to store the rocket motors was now questioned, and we are awaiting a final determination on that issue."
[...more snip...]
> They were also cited for having 140 pounds of explosives stored in a type 4 > indoor magazine when the limit is 50 pounds. Only about 11 pounds fell into > the > contested PAD category. Item 5 from Kenneth's affadavit:
"After being informed on September 8, 2004 that the Ellis Mountain single use motors now had to be stored in a special locker designed for explosive storage, I put these motors in the locker only to be informed the next day by ATF that the locker was now overweight because of the new motors stored there."
ATF is changing the rules on Al's, which is causing the magazine issue, as well as the over-the-limit issue. That's why the affadavit was included in our filing.
-Kevin
Jerry Irvine - 28 Oct 2004 15:34 GMT > David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court > hearing to the DARS list. It is my opinion every aspect of strategy and tactics by NAR, TRA, Aerotech and the other TRA centric vendors and dealers was a severe error.
I have clearly said so consistently over the years and posted every minute detail right here on rmr.
Jerry
> James Duffy > jduffy@mac.com [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web > site.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Dave Grayvis - 28 Oct 2004 15:40 GMT >>David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court >>hearing to the DARS list. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jerry How about the name of you ATF agent? That' a "minute detail" that's NEVER been revealed.
RayDunakin - 28 Oct 2004 18:51 GMT Jerry wrote: << It is my opinion every aspect of strategy and tactics by NAR, TRA, Aerotech and the other TRA centric vendors and dealers was a severe error. I have clearly said so consistently over the years and posted every minute detail right here on rmr. >>
Jerry, that's a crock and you know it. You've agreed that rocket motors are PADs, just as we've said in our lawsuit. The ATF says they are not. The only legal way to challenge them is in court.
Phil Stein - 28 Oct 2004 19:12 GMT >> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court >> hearing to the DARS list. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Jerry Do you have anything to contribute? Since you rarely do, no one (except you) cares if you are right or not. At least NAR & TRA are trying to do something to improve the situation. FYI sitting on your a.s and throwing stones is not helping.
Jerry Irvine - 28 Oct 2004 19:59 GMT > >> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court > >> hearing to the DARS list. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > trying to do something to improve the situation. FYI sitting on your > a.s and throwing stones is not helping. Look who's talking!!??!!
Besides just because I do not brag about what I am doing does not mean it is not being done.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Phil Stein - 28 Oct 2004 21:08 GMT >Besides just because I do not brag about what I am doing does not mean >it is not being done. I'm asking you what you have done. Since I asked, it's not bragging.
tater schuld - 28 Oct 2004 22:14 GMT Bunny, please confirm or deny this.
no need to explain, just validify if this is true
 Signature Tater President of MARS Club (NAR #660) www.mars-rocketry.com KC9ESF NAR #79654 L1 AMA #747769 EAA #703312 remove spam spelled backwards to reply
> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court > hearing to the DARS list. [quoted text clipped - 146 lines] > Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web > site. David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 01:18 GMT You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the documents.
http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/
It doesn't have quite the popularity of the Gitmo rulings so it isn't in an area where you can get it for free. But they are public records and all you have to do is register for a PACER account and you can get them.
Here is a quote from the ruling:
ORDERED, that the plaintiffs’ requests for the Court to (1) order the ATF to recognize sport rocket motors as propellant actuated devices and to (2) order that the Question and Answer sheet currently posted on the ATF website either be removed or revised are DENIED. It is further ORDERED, that the parties shall proceed with the litigation of this case as previously scheduled by the Court.
If that isn't enough for you, here is an argument from the BATFE's filing which should give you an idea of how they feel about it.
"The 1994 letters provide that rocket motors containing no more than 62.5 grams of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound seconds) of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 seconds are exempt. See id. at 15-16. This, of course, means that rocket motors not meeting those criteria are not exempt."
> Bunny, please confirm or deny this. > > no need to explain, just validify if this is true >
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
W. E. Fred Wallace - 29 Oct 2004 01:51 GMT If you have the doc, just post it to ABMR, please........
> You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the documents. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > David W. Schultz > http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 03:33 GMT Alas, the Earthlink news server is being stupid and refuses to allow me to post attachments this evening.
Customer support was as dissapointing as I expected: try Outlook.
> If you have the doc, just post it to ABMR, please........ > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>David W. Schultz >>http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
Chris Taylor Jr - 29 Oct 2004 05:58 GMT e-mail it to me make sure its a zip file (damned filters) and I will post it to my site
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/
> Alas, the Earthlink news server is being stupid and refuses to allow me to post > attachments this evening. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > David W. Schultz > http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz shockwaveriderz - 29 Oct 2004 02:19 GMT david: what search terms do u use? shockie B)
> You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the > documents. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > no need to explain, just validify if this is true > > David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 02:36 GMT The case number: 00-273
> david: what search terms do u use? > shockie B) [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> > no need to explain, just validify if this is true >> >
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 03:04 GMT I think you are missing the pernt...
 Signature gcisko@hotmail.com
> You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the documents. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > no need to explain, just validify if this is true > > David - 29 Oct 2004 17:07 GMT You mean the point that we are screwed and Jerry was wrong? Or are you trying to deflect it to a childish but irrelevant discussion about why you weren't told immediately?
-- David
>I think you are missing the pernt... > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> > no need to explain, just validify if this is true >> > Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 18:04 GMT > You mean the point that we are screwed and Jerry was wrong? Or are you > trying to deflect it to a childish but irrelevant discussion about why you > weren't told immediately? This conclusion seems to be false based on the recent order:
"we are screwed and Jerry was wrong?"
> -- David > >I think you are missing the pernt... [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >> > no need to explain, just validify if this is true > >> >
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
LeRoycom - 29 Oct 2004 18:22 GMT >of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds< an F-25 and F-50 are 80 ns, the above says less then 80, so this means none of these two motors are exempt and will be regulated also?? this does draw through a straw, Le
Phil Stein - 29 Oct 2004 19:32 GMT Maybe both.
>You mean the point that we are screwed and Jerry was wrong? Or are you >trying to deflect it to a childish but irrelevant discussion about why you [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>> > no need to explain, just validify if this is true >>> > RayDunakin - 29 Oct 2004 06:57 GMT David S. wrote: << If that isn't enough for you, here is an argument from the BATFE's filing which should give you an idea of how they feel about it.>>
We already know how the ATF feels about it -- the same as they always have.
<< "The 1994 letters provide that rocket motors containing no more than 62.5 grams of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound seconds) of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 seconds are exempt. See id. at 15-16. This, of course, means that rocket motors not meeting those criteria are not exempt." >>
That's ATF's position, but the judge already ruled that the 62.5g limit is invalid.
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 12:41 GMT > David S. wrote: > << If that isn't enough for you, here is an argument from the BATFE's filing > which should give you an idea of how they feel about it.>> > > We already know how the ATF feels about it -- the same as they always have. No it represents a major change shortly after the release of "easy access"-tm motors.
> << "The 1994 letters provide that rocket motors containing no more than 62.5 > grams of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That's ATF's position, but the judge already ruled that the 62.5g limit is > invalid.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
shockwaveriderz - 29 Oct 2004 22:03 GMT david:
actually the toy propellant device exemption still exists, NPRM 968 has not become final( and therefore law) , so it actually completely changes the definition of the original toy propellant exemption, which was synonmous with model rocket motor.....
the 1994 "AT Letter" definition from the ATF is "rulemaking" on their part and is not final nor law...yet. The Toy Propellant exemption still reigns supreme until that time ..
keep in mind that AT sells so-called EZ access(H-J) as TPD......
This is a quote from Bob Kaplow, somewhere in the last 10 years:
"What is referenced on page 35 of the Orange Book, 55.141 Exemptions (a) General (7) is certain class C explosives as defined by the US DOT 49CFR173.100. The particular section relevant to us is (u) "Toy Propellant Devices". As long as a model rocket motor is DOT certified as a Toy Propellant Device, it is exempt from BATF regulation. This covers all Aerotech, Apogee, Estes, FSI, Kosdon, MRC, NCR, Quest, et. al. rocket motors regardless of propellant chemistry. AT Easy Access reloads happen to have DOT Toy Propellant Device classification, thus are exempt from regulation.
To remove "Toy Propellant Devices" from the exempt list would end the hobby of model rocketry as we know it today. No one would be allowed to sell, buy, store, or fly ANY model rocket without an LEUP.
shockie B)
> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court > hearing to the DARS list. [quoted text clipped - 159 lines] > Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web > site. David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 23:08 GMT I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR 55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 when the DOT revised their rules to "harmonize" them with UN hazmat standards. That revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT regulations and replaced it with a couple of NA numbers.
Go to http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html and drag up 27 CFR for various years and look.
When the brilliant BATF finally got around to changing their regulations to match, they included the UN numbers for consumer fireworks but left out anything for model rocket engines. (They also left off toy caps for cap guns.)
The BATF sent a letter to Aerotech stating that this was a mistake. The toy propellant device exemption is now in a sort of limbo. It is no longer on the books but the BATFE sort of pretends that it is.
More details on this on the regulations page of my web site.
In case you didn't notice, when Aerotech changed hands to RCS they had to get new DOT paperwork. The old paperwork included the Class C toy propellant device language and the new does not. What effect will this have? I don't know.
But there are currently no exemptions in the regulations explicitly for rocket motors. All we have is the PAD exemption and it is limited by the 1994 letter to items that pass CPSC muster. No more than 62.5 grams propellant, under 80 N-s total impulse, and pre-assembled.
Good thing the BATFE isn't enforcing that.
Yet.
> david: > [quoted text clipped - 200 lines] >> Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web >> site.
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
spudzilla - 30 Oct 2004 00:01 GMT What's going on here? That was a post of high informational & factual content.
This is r.m.r. The only posts allowed are either calling someone names, purely speculative posts, or trolls. Please get with program.
Phil Stein - 30 Oct 2004 01:39 GMT >What's going on here? That was a post of high >informational & factual content. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >speculative posts, or trolls. >Please get with program. Don't worry. It won't last.
shockwaveriderz - 30 Oct 2004 01:19 GMT david: it seems we both agree that the DOT TPD disapperaed circa 91-92....I thought (evidently mistakenl;y) that it still existed in CFR 27... was it removed via some NPRM in 1998? If not isn't that another example of illegal rulemaking on the BATFE's part?
Just as the letters in 1994 are illegal.....the Judge seems to me is making a major error in saying that the 1994 BATFE letters to AT mean something: when again the basis of the 1994 BATFe letter was different from the then "current" regulations....
and why is NPRM 968 so intent on totally changing the definition of TPD if TPD doesn't exist anymore?
>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR >55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > anything for model rocket engines. (They also left off toy caps for cap > guns.) Ok I understand this as read from your website.......
> The BATF sent a letter to Aerotech stating that this was a mistake. The > toy propellant device exemption is now in a sort of limbo. It is no longer > on the books but the BATFE sort of pretends that it is. what I am trying to point out, in their rush to try to fix there error, the BATFE again participated in "rulemaking" via the 1994 letter. The 1994 letter can have no validity or authority IF it is also the result of arbriatry and illegal rulemaking. Should NOT this also be done via some NPRM for it to be LAW?
> More details on this on the regulations page of my web site. > > In case you didn't notice, when Aerotech changed hands to RCS they had to > get new DOT paperwork. The old paperwork included the Class C toy > propellant device language and the new does not. What effect will this > have? I don't know. I didn't know this. I wonder why this is too. SO the AT TPD exemptions for their socalled EZ is no longer valid?
> But there are currently no exemptions in the regulations explicitly for > rocket motors. All we have is the PAD exemption and it is limited by the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yet. yes, we both know that the BATFE is intend on using the "child" CSPC for model rocket motors<,=62.5gm..... even though these HPR motors are available only to adults...
>> david: >> [quoted text clipped - 211 lines] >>> Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web >>> site. David Schultz - 30 Oct 2004 02:11 GMT > david: it seems we both agree that the DOT TPD disapperaed circa > 91-92....I thought (evidently mistakenl;y) that it still existed in CFR > 27... It existed only as a reference to DOT regulations that no longer existed.
> was it removed via some NPRM in 1998? If not isn't that another example > of illegal rulemaking on the BATFE's part? It was perfectly legit. At that time the hobby got worked up because this particular NPRM increased the permit fees from $20/$10 to $100/$50. Nobody noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141.
> Just as the letters in 1994 are illegal.....the Judge seems to me is > making a major error in saying that the 1994 BATFE letters to AT mean > something: when again the basis of the 1994 BATFe letter was different > from the then "current" regulations.... The judge has never ruled on anything to do with the legitimacy of the 1994 letters. That issue was not raised in the lawsuit.
> and why is NPRM 968 so intent on totally changing the definition of TPD > if TPD doesn't exist anymore? You can read the GPO web site just as easily as I can. There is no toy propellant device exemption currently. It vanished in 1998. At that time the BATF claimed that they would fix the problem. Instead of being above board with the fix, they tried to slide it by in NPRM 968. Which was supposed to be the result of a review of fireworks related changes having nothing to do with this exemption.
Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt class 1.4 rocket motors or reload kits.
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
David Weinshenker - 30 Oct 2004 03:30 GMT > Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the > old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt > class 1.4 rocket motors or reload kits. I think that, in the notice for NPRM 968, the BATF noted that they had received proposals to have a blanket exemption for "class 1.4 items" (i.e., parallel to the former exemption for DOT class C materials), but that they refused to implement it. Their excuse was that certain materials (such as blasting caps) might qualify to be _shipped_ as 1.4 based on being packaged in a certain way, but the user might remove them from the protective packaging for storage, so they ought to be subject to the storage requirements for "high explosives".
(One thing I'm wondering... I've never seen any explosives safety manuals or blasting cap product instruction sheets, but wouldn't correct handling of blasting caps include keeping them in the manufacturer's protective packaging until use??)
At any rate, I suspect that BATF is being coy about their real reason for sticking by their sloppy porting job (rather than using what you describe as the "correct updated version")... their actual thought is probably that blasting caps, even if shippable as "1.4", might be considered a "gateway" product, access to which might facilitate the production of illicit "destructive devices", so they want to make sure that nobody can legally buy them without going through the licensee/permittee distribution chain. (They would probably feel like they weren't making the permit system do what they considered it their duty to make it do, if there were a way for anyone to "make anything go bang" without either complying with or violating their regulations, and a blanket exemption for DOT 1.4 stuff would create that sort of "loophole"...)
But this is all conjecture - I've never claimed to be a genuine authority on the Bureaucratic Mindset...
-dave w
David Schultz - 30 Oct 2004 05:56 GMT >>Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the >>old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > remove them from the protective packaging for storage, so they ought to be subject > to the storage requirements for "high explosives". The comment was from the IME and it wasn't about exemptions. It was to adopt the UN hazard classification for purposes of storage:
"IME has suggested that ATF convert to United Nations terminology for hazard classifications in determining the appropriate storage for explosive materials." FR Vol 68, No. 19 page 4409
In other words this would allow UN 1.4 items to be stored in low explosive magazines. Note that black powder is UN class 1.1 just like high explosives.
Looking at NPRM 968 again I find it amusing to note that something which is nominally the result of a review of fireworks related regulations has a large number of suggestions from the IME. Who deal with "real" explosives.
> (One thing I'm wondering... I've never seen any explosives safety manuals > or blasting cap product instruction sheets, but wouldn't correct handling [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -dave w
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
shockwaveriderz - 30 Oct 2004 19:28 GMT >> Just as the letters in 1994 are illegal.....the Judge seems to me is >> making a major error in saying that the 1994 BATFE letters to AT mean [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The judge has never ruled on anything to do with the legitimacy of the > 1994 letters. That issue was not raised in the lawsuit. David: I understand and agree with you that the Judge has never ruled on the legitimacy of the 1994 letters from the BATFE to AT.... SO why does the judge continue to make reference to them in his opinions?
for example you stated:
The judge ruled earlier this year that the BATFE's change in position from the 1994 letter was invalid because it did not go through the proper rule making process. If anyone actually read that letter (attached to court filings) they would have read:
"The Aerotech products which have been classified by the Department of Transportation as a flammable solid 4.1 or as explosives 1.4c, which are within the 62.5 grams limit contained in NFPA 1122 and conform to the requirements of model rocket motors as set forth in 16 CFR section 1500.85(a)(8)(ii), would meet the ATF requirements for exemption under 27 CFR Part 55, section 141(a)(8)."
Here we have the judge ruling that the BATFe change in position from the 1994 letters was invalid.....because it did not go through the rulemaking process.... I am saying that the 1994 letters to AT from the BATFe is alo invalid rulemaking on the BATFE's part..... Does that make sense? No determination yet seems to be made if the 1994 letters have any validity but the judge continues to refernce such documents
>> and why is NPRM 968 so intent on totally changing the definition of TPD >> if TPD doesn't exist anymore? I still do not understand how the TPD exemption at 55.141(a) (7) (iii) doe not currently exist but the BATFe vis NPRM 968 is attempting to redefine an exmeption that supposedly hasn't existed since 1998....
shockie B)
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:31 GMT > Nobody > noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141. because club leaders were disregarding it despite some vendors screaming loudly about it.
Vulcan (blackballed) ACS (Banned) Kosdon (decertified) U.S. Rockets (decertified).
> Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the > old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt > class 1.4 rocket motors or reload kits.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
W. E. Fred Wallace - 31 Oct 2004 04:44 GMT > ? Nobody > ? noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Jerry Do you have new information to share with the group jerry? If you don't, I'm almost sure someone else will soon..(;-)
Phil Stein - 31 Oct 2004 13:28 GMT >> ? Nobody >> ? noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Do you have new information to share with the group jerry? If you >don't, I'm almost sure someone else will soon..(;-) I didn't say anything.
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:27 GMT > I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR > 55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 when > the > DOT revised their rules to "harmonize" them with UN hazmat standards. Nope. DOT made specific provision for that!
Note 49 CFR 173.63 All division 1.4 (including s,c,g) are equivelant to Class C.
> That > revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT > regulations > and replaced it with a couple of NA numbers. So what was their justification at the time? And I mean literally and verbatim.
> Go to http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html and drag up 27 > CFR for various years and look. [quoted text clipped - 230 lines] > >> Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web > >> site.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
David Schultz - 31 Oct 2004 05:12 GMT >>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR >>55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 when [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Note 49 CFR 173.63 > All division 1.4 (including s,c,g) are equivelant to Class C. Insufficient. The BATF referenced a specific definition of "toy propellant devices" and that vanished.
But you knew that.
>>That >>revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So what was their justification at the time? And I mean literally and > verbatim. You can look it up in the Federal Register just as easily as I can.
But it will require a trip to a federal repository library as the online version doesn't go back that far. I don't feel sufficiently motivated to go look it up so you are on your own.
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 05:44 GMT > >>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR > >>55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > But you knew that. 1995
27 CFR 55.141(a)(7) The importation and distribution of fireworks classified as Class C explosives and generally known as "common fireworks", and other Class C explosives, as described by U.S. Department of Transportation regulations in 49 CFR 173.100 (p), (r), (t), (u) and (x)."
Apparantly you are wrong.
> >>That > >>revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > up > so you are on your own.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
David Schultz - 31 Oct 2004 14:29 GMT >>>>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR >>>>55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Apparantly you are wrong. I said that version changed in 1998 so of course it is still there in 1995. Try looking for 49 CFR 173.100 which is where the definition of "toy propellant devices" is at. Good luck
>>>>That >>>>revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>up >>so you are on your own.
 Signature David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
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