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BATF Stuff...

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James Duffy - 28 Oct 2004 04:51 GMT
David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
hearing to the DARS list.

James Duffy
jduffy@mac.com

___________________________________

(From David Schultz)

Curiosity finally overwhelmed me on the latest BATFE lawsuit happenings. So
I
went to the Federal District Court of Columbia web site, established a
PACER
account, and checked the recently filed documents.

The court denied the NAR/TRA motion in a document posted on the 19th. Which
if
you look at the previous documents was not a surprise. The NAR/TRA took the
position that the summary judgment earlier this year meant that all fully
assembled rocket motors were exempt as Propellant Actuated Devices (PADs).
This
was clearly not the case.

The judge ruled earlier this year that the BATFE's change in position from
the
1994 letter was invalid because it did not go through the proper rule
making
process. If anyone actually read that letter (attached to court filings)
they
would have read:

"The Aerotech products which have been classified by the Department of
Transportation as a flammable solid 4.1 or as explosives 1.4c, which are
within
the 62.5 grams limit contained in NFPA 1122 and conform to the requirements
of
model rocket motors as set forth in 16 CFR section 1500.85(a)(8)(ii), would
meet
the ATF requirements for exemption under 27 CFR Part 55, section
141(a)(8)."

(The full text of this document is available on the TRA web site.)

141(a)(8) being the PAD exemption. Notice the other restrictions placed on
this
by the BATFE. Any motor not meeting the requirements of the Consumer
Product
Safety Commission (CPSC) are regulated under this interpretation. This
limits
the exemption as PAD's to assembled motors with no more than 80 N-s total
impulse ("F" motors) and no more than 62.5 grams propellant.

This leaves us in a really bad position. Some motors that were exempt under
the
now vanished exemption for toy propellant devices are _not_ exempt under
this
PAD ruling. Single use "G" motors aren't exempt as PAD's. No reload is
exempt as

a PAD under this criteria. So the limits in the FAQ that the BATFE recently
published are actually more leniant than required by the 1994 letter.

It was nice to fantasize about the judge slapping the BATFE down. But it
was
just a fantasy.

In addition to the judge's ruling there were a couple of other documents
filed
by the BATFE. The more interesting of these was an affidavit from the
inspector
who performed the permit renewal inspection at Al's Hobbies that was cited
by
the NAR/TRA.

Al's Hobbies was cited for a raft of violations. Some of which were minor
but
many were major problems.

They were cited for not having their magazine secured in the correct
fashion.
Their magazine has a single unhooded padlock and the room it is stored in
is not
secured as required (two hooded padlocks, or.... you know the drill). This
is
absolutely correct but it does bring up the point that this magazine had to
have
been approved by a previous BATFE inspector.

There was a long discussion about this locking issue on the THPRA list a
while
back. When I expressed my opinion that the above lock requirement was
correct,
several people disagreed with me. I think that perhaps some permitees in
Texas
might have had magazines approved with this one lock configuration. I
strongly
suggest that you read the BATFE's position on this in the last Explosive's
Newsletter. Then take notice of the above action against Al's Hobbies and
be
prepared to alter your locking arrangement when the BATFE notices their
screw-up.

They were also cited for having 140 pounds of explosives stored in a type 4
indoor magazine when the limit is 50 pounds. Only about 11 pounds fell into
the
contested PAD category.

They had numerous paperwork violations. Failure to record information.
Inconsistancies between acquisition, disposition, and magazine logs.

Some of the violations listed caused me to ask some questions. Such as just
what
are the "date shift codes" which were cited as being missing from
acquisition
records among others? The regulations require you to record the date but
never
mention a "date shift code".

And for everyone who has a permit and is thinking of assisting a non permit
holder in flying their rocket we have this ominous pronouncement:

"Licensee was cautioned against taking orders for rocket motors from
individuals
not Federally licensed/permitted and subsequently shipping/delivering them
to a
different individual who is Federally licensed/permitted as this may
unwittingly
be aiding in trafficking explosives to prohibited individuals.
Licenses/permits
issued to individuals are for the sole use of the named individual."

Which resulted from Al's Hobby shop entering a non-permitees name in their
records and delivering (so they claim) to a permitee.

Given this long list of violations, Al's Hobby shop should be quite happy
that
the BATFE is working with them to clear up the problems rather than taking
more
serious actions.

The last document filed in the case is a motion requesting the judge to
issue a
final ruling on count 1 of the lawsuit so that the NAR/TRA may proceed with
an
appeal on that issue. In case anyone forgot, that count is about the
explosiveness of APCP.

Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
site.
Greg Cisko - 28 Oct 2004 07:08 GMT
So why are we finding out about this in this forum in this
manner??? If this is true should we not have been updated
on the progress (or lack there of) as we have been in the
past?

I mean really... What is going on here? Are you sure this is
for real? If it is I would assume Bunny would have told us
by now... Did I miss an announcement by Bunny? If so then
I apologize for questioning the system. If this is not what it
seems than I also apologize.

If this is for real, then whoa you have got to be joking...

If this story is true... time to jack up the senior dues (without
telling anyone again)  I suppose. Very sad.

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
> hearing to the DARS list.
[quoted text clipped - 146 lines]
>  Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
> site.
Jerry Irvine - 28 Oct 2004 15:38 GMT
> So why are we finding out about this in this forum in this
> manner??? If this is true should we not have been updated
> on the progress (or lack there of) as we have been in the
> past?

Beacuse NAR and TRA have f.cked up both strategy and tactics and are
slow to release such details.

> I mean really... What is going on here? Are you sure this is
> for real? If it is I would assume Bunny would have told us
[quoted text clipped - 179 lines]
> >  Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
> > site.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Phil Stein - 28 Oct 2004 19:07 GMT
>Beacuse NAR and TRA have f.cked up both strategy and tactics and are
>slow to release such details.

It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the
situation.
RayDunakin - 28 Oct 2004 20:36 GMT
Jerry wrote:
<< Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>>

Jerry, we've already seen how your strategy and tactics worked with DOT, and
the DOT doesn't even have the ATF's antagonism toward rocketry.

<< ...and are slow to release such details. >>

They're going over everything with the lawyers instead of shooting off at the
mouth. That's the smart move.
W. E. Fred Wallace - 28 Oct 2004 21:57 GMT
> Jerry wrote:
> << Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> They're going over everything with the lawyers instead of shooting off at the
> mouth. That's the smart move.

Or in "Big Fine"s" case, talking out his A$$>>
Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 00:27 GMT
> Jerry wrote:
> << Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> They're going over everything with the lawyers instead of shooting off at the
> mouth. That's the smart move.

And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone? How
do you know this? As I recall, good news recently was transmitted
quickly was it not? I claim it should get the same scrutiny. Otherwise
what are we talking about here?

Good news = release quickly
Bad news = get your story straight for a week +

At least that is how it seems to me.

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 00:34 GMT
> > Jerry wrote:
> > << Beacuse NAR and TRA have f****d up both strategy and tactics...>>
> >
> > Jerry, we've already seen how your strategy and tactics worked with DOT,

My strategy is transparant and everybody here has ready access to see it.
As far as it has progressed so far in 3.5 years.

> and
> > the DOT doesn't even have the ATF's antagonism toward rocketry.

You are totally wrong.

> > << ...and are slow to release such details. >>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone?

TRA and NAR are slow to release. Typically a week+. If it takes longer
than that from the time they actually have the pleadings in their hands
then you know they are dragging their feet.

Their BS joint statement ought to be entertaining and counterproductive.
Something about weight limits and sport motors not being exempt despite
the law and the judge's order.

> How
> do you know this? As I recall, good news recently was transmitted
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> At least that is how it seems to me.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

RayDunakin - 29 Oct 2004 06:53 GMT
gcisko wrote:
<< And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone?>>

Yes.

<< How do you know this? >>

Common sense led me to that conclusion, and my conclusion was confirmed on the
TRA list.
Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 07:48 GMT
> gcisko wrote:
> << And this is the reason for a weeks delay in informing everyone?>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Common sense led me to that conclusion, and my conclusion was confirmed on the
> TRA list.

And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. Is that
not true?

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

RayDunakin - 29 Oct 2004 17:05 GMT
<< And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >>

Good news requires less processing. Why is that so hard to understand?
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 17:49 GMT
> << And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >>
>
> Good news requires less processing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Why do you "make up" excuses for actions you are not party to, in the
loop of, or experienced in?

Jerry

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Dave Grayvis - 29 Oct 2004 18:06 GMT
>><< And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Jerry

jerry,  Why do you "make up" excuses for actions you are not party to,
in the loop of, or experienced in?
Phil Stein - 29 Oct 2004 19:36 GMT
>> << And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Jerry

Yeah.  When you've been found guilty or in violation as many times as
Jerry, then you are an expert.
Greg Cisko - 30 Oct 2004 00:20 GMT
Actually I would think good and bad news would require the same time
to properly process.

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

> << And apparently good news is "processed" much quicker. >>
>
> Good news requires less processing. Why is that so hard to understand?
RayDunakin - 30 Oct 2004 05:47 GMT
gcisko wrote:
<< Actually I would think good and bad news would require the same time to
properly process. >>

Not necessarily. Good news is usually pretty obvious, and doesn't require much
(if any) investigation to find out what options are available to us.
Greg Cisko - 30 Oct 2004 07:49 GMT
In your opinion. I happen to believe any information needs to be gone
through equally to ensure it is what it is. Quickly releasing what is
originally
seen as "good" info while holding back and getting your story straight
on "bad" info seems kind of short sighted IMHO. Now I am not saying
that is for sure what is happening here. But at the moment without
a confirmation one way or the other, we just have the facts of
transpired events to look at.

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

> gcisko wrote:
> << Actually I would think good and bad news would require the same time to
> properly process. >>
>
> Not necessarily. Good news is usually pretty obvious, and doesn't require much
> (if any) investigation to find out what options are available to us.
RayDunakin - 30 Oct 2004 20:37 GMT
gcisko wrote:
<< But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just have
the facts of transpired events to look at. >>

Isn't that what you're asking for, when you say you want the information
released quickly without taking the time to go over it with legal counsel?
Greg Cisko - 31 Oct 2004 00:21 GMT
> gcisko wrote:
> << But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just have
> the facts of transpired events to look at. >>
>
> Isn't that what you're asking for, when you say you want the information
> released quickly without taking the time to go over it with legal counsel?

HAHAHA!!!!

I never said I wanted info released quickly. Duh I was assuming you can
read and reason properly. I mean really - you are really having a freaking
problem with this. I said I thought any info should be given the same
consideration.

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:24 GMT
> > gcisko wrote:
> > << But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> problem with this. I said I thought any info should be given the same
> consideration.

Because he is Ray Dunakin.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Greg Cisko - 31 Oct 2004 04:48 GMT
> > I never said I wanted info released quickly. Duh I was assuming you can
> > read and reason properly. I mean really - you are really having a freaking
> > problem with this. I said I thought any info should be given the same
> > consideration.
>
> Because he is Ray Dunakin.

Hey I thought he was cool. I never imagined he would get
all freaked out and sh$t. Whatever.

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

RayDunakin - 31 Oct 2004 05:06 GMT
gcisko wrote:
<< I mean really - you are really having a freaking problem with this. >>

Not me. You wanted to know why "bad" news takes longer, I explained it, period.
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 05:44 GMT
> gcisko wrote:
> << I mean really - you are really having a freaking problem with this. >>
>
> Not me. You wanted to know why "bad" news takes longer, I explained it,
> period.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

The news is neutral.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

David Weinshenker - 31 Oct 2004 06:08 GMT
> Assumes facts not in evidence.
> The news is neutral.

I think the real message of the present
ruling is that things have been taken as
far as far as they can with "motions for
summary judgements" and stuff and it's
about time to have a proper argument over
what's left...

-dave w
RayDunakin - 31 Oct 2004 19:17 GMT
Jerry Irvine wrote:
<< The news is neutral. >>

Simply reporting what happened isn't the whole story. People are going to want
to know what the lawyers have to say about it, what next step is, etc. Without
that info, we end up with people jumping to ridiculous conclusions ("Oh no, the
Feds are gonna bust down my door 'cause I have a G motor!")
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:23 GMT
> gcisko wrote:
> << But at the moment without a confirmation one way or the other, we just have
> the facts of transpired events to look at. >>
>
> Isn't that what you're asking for, when you say you want the information
> released quickly without taking the time to go over it with legal counsel?

It is a public document Ray.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 00:23 GMT
Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-)  And if this
whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As
I recall "good" news in this regard is transmitted very
quickly - at least it certainly was last time. I am hoping
for an explainable delay...

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

> >Beacuse NAR and TRA have f.cked up both strategy and tactics and are
> >slow to release such details.
>
> It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the
> situation.
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 00:34 GMT
> Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-)

Exactly.

>  And if this
> whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the
> > situation.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

W. E. Fred Wallace - 29 Oct 2004 00:49 GMT
> Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-)

Yep, jerry is good at keeping it real; "Real expensive". (;-)

> And if this whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As
> I recall "good" news in this regard is transmitted very
> quickly - at least it certainly was last time. I am hoping
> for an explainable delay...

> "Phil Stein" <PStein@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote in message

> > It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the
> > situation.
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 01:17 GMT
> > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-)
>
> Yep, jerry is good at keeping it real; "Real expensive". (;-)

That's nothing as compared to the cost-benefit of the NAR/TRA lawsuit.

> > And if this whole thing is indeed true, then I am very disappointed. As
> > I recall "good" news in this regard is transmitted very
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > > It's nice to see that you are doing such a fine job improving the
> > > situation.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

W. E. Fred Wallace - 29 Oct 2004 03:28 GMT
> > > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-)
> >
> > Yep, jerry is good at keeping it real; "Real expensive". (;-)
>
> That's nothing as compared to the cost-benefit of the NAR/TRA lawsuit.

Do you expect us to believe your "BIG FINE" was a cost benefit to
rocketry, in any form??

ROTFLMAO..

> Jerry

Fred
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 03:33 GMT
> > > > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-)
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Fred

It was a FAR lower cost and neutral to the industry at large.

The NAR/TRA suit is a HUGE cost and potentially a HUGE buttfuck to the
industry.

If only they would fixate on the obvious, we would be fine. 27 CFR
555.141-a-8 is broad, and exempts those items from the entirety of Part
55. It really is that simple.

Jerry

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Chris Taylor Jr - 29 Oct 2004 05:58 GMT
except that it would take a simple rule revision to eliminate your exemption
which they do not recognize anyway.

the judge has already essentially ruled that they are allowed to determine
what a PAD is making YOUR 27 CFR whatever a moot issue.

what say you ?

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

> > > > > Hey some might say he is "keeping it real" :-)
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
> Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 12:45 GMT
> except that it would take a simple rule revision to eliminate your exemption
> which they do not recognize anyway.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> what say you ?

Where is NPRM 968? In a black hole or dead?

The responses to that were intense and killer.

Jerry

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Kevin Trojanowski - 28 Oct 2004 07:41 GMT
[..snip for brevity...]

>  They were cited for not having their magazine secured in the correct
> fashion.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> have
>  been approved by a previous BATFE inspector.

When you read this, keep in mind the affadavit from Kenneth Herrick of
Al's Hobbies, specifically items 4:

"I was also informed that the locks on the doors of the store premises
were insufficient, although these are the same locks that have been in
place during previous ATF inspections (and there is an electronic
burglar system in place).  Additionally, the acceptability of the locker
we have been using for over six years to store the rocket motors was now
questioned, and we are awaiting a final determination on that issue."

[...more snip...]

>  They were also cited for having 140 pounds of explosives stored in a type 4
>  indoor magazine when the limit is 50 pounds. Only about 11 pounds fell into
> the
>  contested PAD category.

Item 5 from Kenneth's affadavit:

"After being informed on September 8, 2004 that the Ellis Mountain
single use motors now had to be stored in a special locker designed for
explosive storage, I put these motors in the locker only to be informed
the next day by ATF that the locker was now overweight because of the
new motors stored there."

ATF is changing the rules on Al's, which is causing the magazine issue,
as well as the over-the-limit issue.  That's why the affadavit was
included in our filing.

-Kevin
Jerry Irvine - 28 Oct 2004 15:34 GMT
> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
> hearing to the DARS list.

It is my opinion every aspect of strategy and tactics by NAR, TRA,
Aerotech and the other TRA centric vendors and dealers was a severe
error.

I have clearly said so consistently over the years and posted every
minute detail right here on rmr.

Jerry

> James Duffy
> jduffy@mac.com
[quoted text clipped - 143 lines]
>  Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
> site.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Dave Grayvis - 28 Oct 2004 15:40 GMT
>>David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
>>hearing to the DARS list.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jerry

How about the name of you ATF agent?  That' a "minute detail" that's
NEVER been revealed.
RayDunakin - 28 Oct 2004 18:51 GMT
Jerry wrote:
<< It is my opinion every aspect of strategy and tactics by NAR, TRA, Aerotech
and the other TRA centric vendors and dealers was a severe error.
I have clearly said so consistently over the years and posted every minute
detail right here on rmr. >>

Jerry, that's a crock and you know it. You've agreed that rocket motors are
PADs, just as we've said in our lawsuit. The ATF says they are not. The only
legal way to challenge them is in court.
Phil Stein - 28 Oct 2004 19:12 GMT
>> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
>> hearing to the DARS list.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Jerry

Do you have anything to contribute?  Since you rarely do, no one
(except you) cares if you are right or not.  At least NAR & TRA are
trying to do something to improve the situation.  FYI sitting on your
a.s and throwing stones is not helping.
Jerry Irvine - 28 Oct 2004 19:59 GMT
> >> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
> >> hearing to the DARS list.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> trying to do something to improve the situation.  FYI sitting on your
> a.s and throwing stones is not helping.

Look who's talking!!??!!

Besides just because I do not brag about what I am doing does not mean
it is not being done.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Phil Stein - 28 Oct 2004 21:08 GMT
>Besides just because I do not brag about what I am doing does not mean
>it is not being done.

I'm asking you what you have done.  Since I asked, it's not bragging.
tater schuld - 28 Oct 2004 22:14 GMT
Bunny, please confirm or deny this.

no need to explain, just validify if this is true

Signature

Tater
President of MARS Club (NAR #660)
www.mars-rocketry.com
KC9ESF
NAR #79654 L1
AMA #747769
EAA #703312
remove spam spelled backwards to reply

> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
> hearing to the DARS list.
[quoted text clipped - 146 lines]
>  Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
> site.
David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 01:18 GMT
You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the documents.

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/

It doesn't have quite the popularity of the Gitmo rulings so it isn't in an area
where you can get it for free. But they are public records and all you have to
do is register for a PACER account and you can get them.

Here is a quote from the ruling:

ORDERED, that the plaintiffs’ requests for the Court to (1) order the ATF to
recognize sport rocket motors as propellant actuated devices and to (2) order
that the Question and Answer sheet currently posted on the ATF website either be
removed or revised are DENIED. It is further ORDERED, that the parties shall
proceed with the litigation of this case as previously scheduled by the Court.

If that isn't enough for you, here is an argument from the BATFE's filing which
should give you an idea of how they feel about it.

"The 1994 letters provide that rocket motors containing no more than 62.5 grams
of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound seconds)
of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 seconds are exempt.
See id. at 15-16. This, of course, means that rocket motors not meeting those
criteria are not exempt."

 > Bunny, please confirm or deny this.
 >
 > no need to explain, just validify if this is true
 >

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

W. E. Fred Wallace - 29 Oct 2004 01:51 GMT
If you have the doc, just post it to ABMR, please........

> You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the documents.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> David W. Schultz
> http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 03:33 GMT
Alas, the Earthlink news server is being stupid and refuses to allow me to post
attachments this evening.

Customer support was as dissapointing as I expected: try Outlook.

> If you have the doc, just post it to ABMR, please........
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>David W. Schultz
>>http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

Chris Taylor Jr - 29 Oct 2004 05:58 GMT
e-mail it to me make sure its a zip file (damned filters) and I will post it
to my site

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

> Alas, the Earthlink news server is being stupid and refuses to allow me to post
> attachments this evening.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> David W. Schultz
> http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
shockwaveriderz - 29 Oct 2004 02:19 GMT
david: what search terms do u use?
shockie B)

> You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the
> documents.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>  > no need to explain, just validify if this is true
>  >
David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 02:36 GMT
The case number: 00-273

> david: what search terms do u use?
> shockie B)
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>>  > no need to explain, just validify if this is true
>>  >

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

Greg Cisko - 29 Oct 2004 03:04 GMT
I think you are missing the pernt...

Signature

gcisko@hotmail.com

> You could always do what I did. Go to the court web site and download the documents.
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>   > no need to explain, just validify if this is true
>   >
David - 29 Oct 2004 17:07 GMT
You mean the point that we are screwed and Jerry was wrong?  Or are you
trying to deflect it to a childish but irrelevant discussion about why you
weren't told immediately?

-- David
>I think you are missing the pernt...
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>>   > no need to explain, just validify if this is true
>>   >
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 18:04 GMT
> You mean the point that we are screwed and Jerry was wrong?  Or are you
> trying to deflect it to a childish but irrelevant discussion about why you
> weren't told immediately?

This conclusion seems to be false based on the recent order:

"we are screwed and Jerry was wrong?"

> -- David
> >I think you are missing the pernt...
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> >>   > no need to explain, just validify if this is true
> >>   >

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

LeRoycom - 29 Oct 2004 18:22 GMT
>of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds<

an F-25 and F-50 are 80 ns, the above says less then 80, so this means none of
these two motors are exempt and will be regulated also?? this does draw through
a straw, Le
Phil Stein - 29 Oct 2004 19:32 GMT
Maybe both.

>You mean the point that we are screwed and Jerry was wrong?  Or are you
>trying to deflect it to a childish but irrelevant discussion about why you
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>>>   > no need to explain, just validify if this is true
>>>   >
RayDunakin - 29 Oct 2004 06:57 GMT
David S. wrote:
<< If that isn't enough for you, here is an argument from the BATFE's filing
which should give you an idea of how they feel about it.>>

We already know how the ATF feels about it -- the same as they always have.

<< "The 1994 letters provide that rocket motors containing no more than 62.5
grams of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound
seconds) of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 seconds are
exempt. See id. at 15-16. This, of course, means that rocket motors not meeting
those criteria are not exempt." >>

That's ATF's position, but the judge already ruled that the 62.5g limit is
invalid.
Jerry Irvine - 29 Oct 2004 12:41 GMT
> David S. wrote:
> << If that isn't enough for you, here is an argument from the BATFE's filing
> which should give you an idea of how they feel about it.>>
>
> We already know how the ATF feels about it -- the same as they always have.

No it represents a major change shortly after the release of "easy
access"-tm motors.

> << "The 1994 letters provide that rocket motors containing no more than 62.5
> grams of propellant, and producing less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> That's ATF's position, but the judge already ruled that the 62.5g limit is
> invalid.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

shockwaveriderz - 29 Oct 2004 22:03 GMT
david:

actually the toy propellant device exemption still exists, NPRM 968 has not
become final( and therefore law) , so it actually completely changes the
definition of the original toy propellant exemption, which was synonmous
with model rocket motor.....

the 1994 "AT Letter" definition from the ATF is "rulemaking"  on their part
and is not final nor law...yet. The Toy Propellant exemption still reigns
supreme until that time ..

keep in mind that AT sells so-called EZ access(H-J)  as TPD......

This is a quote from Bob Kaplow, somewhere in the last 10 years:

"What is referenced on page 35 of the Orange Book, 55.141 Exemptions (a)
General (7)
is certain class C explosives as defined by the US DOT 49CFR173.100. The
particular section relevant to us is (u) "Toy Propellant Devices". As long
as a model rocket motor is DOT certified as a Toy Propellant Device, it is
exempt from BATF regulation. This covers all Aerotech, Apogee, Estes, FSI,
Kosdon, MRC, NCR, Quest,  et. al. rocket motors regardless of propellant
chemistry. AT Easy Access reloads happen to have DOT Toy Propellant Device
classification, thus are exempt from regulation.

To remove "Toy Propellant Devices" from the exempt list would end the hobby
of model rocketry as we know it today. No one would be allowed to sell, buy,
store, or fly ANY model rocket without an LEUP.

shockie B)

> David Schultz posted the following information about last week's court
> hearing to the DARS list.
[quoted text clipped - 159 lines]
> Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
> site.
David Schultz - 29 Oct 2004 23:08 GMT
I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR
55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 when the
DOT revised their rules to "harmonize" them with UN hazmat standards. That
revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT regulations
and replaced it with a couple of NA numbers.

Go to http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html and drag up 27
CFR for various years and look.

When the brilliant BATF finally got around to changing their regulations to
match, they included the UN numbers for consumer fireworks but left out anything
for model rocket engines. (They also left off toy caps for cap guns.)

The BATF sent a letter to Aerotech stating that this was a mistake. The toy
propellant device exemption is now in a sort of limbo. It is no longer on the
books but the BATFE sort of pretends that it is.

More details on this on the regulations page of my web site.

In case you didn't notice, when Aerotech changed hands to RCS they had to get
new DOT paperwork. The old paperwork included the Class C toy propellant device
language and the new does not. What effect will this have? I don't know.

But there are currently no exemptions in the regulations explicitly for rocket
motors. All we have is the PAD exemption and it is limited by the 1994 letter to
items that pass CPSC muster. No more than 62.5 grams propellant, under 80 N-s
total impulse, and pre-assembled.

Good thing the BATFE isn't enforcing that.

Yet.

> david:
>
[quoted text clipped - 200 lines]
>> Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
>> site.

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

spudzilla - 30 Oct 2004 00:01 GMT
What's going on here? That was a post of high
informational & factual content.

This is r.m.r. The only posts allowed are
either calling someone names, purely
speculative posts, or trolls.
Please get with program.
Phil Stein - 30 Oct 2004 01:39 GMT
>What's going on here? That was a post of high
>informational & factual content.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>speculative posts, or trolls.
>Please get with program.

Don't worry.  It won't last.
shockwaveriderz - 30 Oct 2004 01:19 GMT
david: it seems we both agree that the DOT TPD disapperaed circa 91-92....I
thought (evidently mistakenl;y) that it still existed in CFR 27...
was it removed via some NPRM in 1998? If not isn't that another example of
illegal rulemaking on the BATFE's part?

Just as the letters in 1994 are illegal.....the Judge seems to me is making
a major error in saying that the 1994 BATFE letters to AT mean something:
when again the basis of the 1994 BATFe letter  was different from the then
"current" regulations....

and why is NPRM 968 so intent on totally changing the definition of TPD if
TPD doesn't exist anymore?

>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR
>55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> anything for model rocket engines. (They also left off toy caps for cap
> guns.)

Ok I understand this as read from your website.......

> The BATF sent a letter to Aerotech stating that this was a mistake. The
> toy propellant device exemption is now in a sort of limbo. It is no longer
> on the books but the BATFE sort of pretends that it is.

what I am trying to point out, in their rush to try to fix there error, the
BATFE again participated in "rulemaking" via the 1994 letter.  The 1994
letter can have no validity or authority  IF  it is also the result of
arbriatry and illegal rulemaking. Should NOT this also be done via some NPRM
for it to be LAW?

> More details on this on the regulations page of my web site.
>
> In case you didn't notice, when Aerotech changed hands to RCS they had to
> get new DOT paperwork. The old paperwork included the Class C toy
> propellant device language and the new does not. What effect will this
> have? I don't know.

I didn't know this. I wonder why this is too. SO the AT TPD exemptions for
their socalled EZ is no longer valid?

> But there are currently no exemptions in the regulations explicitly for
> rocket motors. All we have is the PAD exemption and it is limited by the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yet.

yes, we both know that the BATFE is intend on using the "child" CSPC for
model rocket motors<,=62.5gm..... even though these HPR motors are available
only to adults...

>> david:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 211 lines]
>>> Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
>>> site.
David Schultz - 30 Oct 2004 02:11 GMT
> david: it seems we both agree that the DOT TPD disapperaed circa
> 91-92....I thought (evidently mistakenl;y) that it still existed in CFR
> 27...

It existed only as a reference to DOT regulations that no longer existed.

> was it removed via some NPRM in 1998? If not isn't that another example
> of illegal rulemaking on the BATFE's part?

It was perfectly legit. At that time the hobby got worked up because this
particular NPRM increased the permit fees from $20/$10 to $100/$50. Nobody
noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141.

> Just as the letters in 1994 are illegal.....the Judge seems to me is
> making a major error in saying that the 1994 BATFE letters to AT mean
> something: when again the basis of the 1994 BATFe letter  was different
> from the then "current" regulations....

The judge has never ruled on anything to do with the legitimacy of the 1994
letters. That issue was not raised in the lawsuit.

> and why is NPRM 968 so intent on totally changing the definition of TPD
> if TPD doesn't exist anymore?

You can read the GPO web site just as easily as I can. There is no toy
propellant device exemption currently. It vanished in 1998. At that time the
BATF claimed that they would fix the problem. Instead of being above board with
the fix, they tried to slide it by in NPRM 968. Which was supposed to be the
result of a review of fireworks related changes having nothing to do with this
exemption.

Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the
old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt
class 1.4 rocket motors or reload kits.

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

David Weinshenker - 30 Oct 2004 03:30 GMT
> Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the
> old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt
> class 1.4 rocket motors or reload kits.

I think that, in the notice for NPRM 968, the BATF noted that they had received
proposals to have a blanket exemption for "class 1.4 items" (i.e., parallel to
the former exemption for DOT class C materials), but that they refused to implement
it. Their excuse was that certain materials (such as blasting caps) might qualify
to be _shipped_ as 1.4 based on being packaged in a certain way, but the user might
remove them from the protective packaging for storage, so they ought to be subject
to the storage requirements for "high explosives".

(One thing I'm wondering... I've never seen any explosives safety manuals
or blasting cap product instruction sheets, but wouldn't correct handling
of blasting caps include keeping them in the manufacturer's protective
packaging until use??)

At any rate, I suspect that BATF is being coy about their real reason for
sticking by their sloppy porting job (rather than using what you describe
as the "correct updated version")... their actual thought is probably that
blasting caps, even if shippable as "1.4", might be considered a "gateway"
product, access to which might facilitate the production of illicit "destructive
devices", so they want to make sure that nobody can legally buy them without
going through the licensee/permittee distribution chain. (They would probably
feel like they weren't making the permit system do what they considered it
their duty to make it do, if there were a way for anyone to "make anything
go bang" without either complying with or violating their regulations, and
a blanket exemption for DOT 1.4 stuff would create that sort of "loophole"...)

But this is all conjecture - I've never claimed to be a genuine authority on
the Bureaucratic Mindset...

-dave w
David Schultz - 30 Oct 2004 05:56 GMT
>>Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the
>>old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> remove them from the protective packaging for storage, so they ought to be subject
> to the storage requirements for "high explosives".

The comment was from the IME and it wasn't about exemptions. It was to adopt the
UN hazard classification for purposes of storage:

"IME has suggested that ATF convert
to United Nations terminology for
hazard classifications in determining
the appropriate storage for explosive
materials." FR Vol 68, No. 19 page 4409

In other words this would allow UN 1.4 items to be stored in low explosive
magazines. Note that black powder is UN class 1.1 just like high explosives.

Looking at NPRM 968 again I find it amusing to note that something which is
nominally the result of a review of fireworks related regulations has a large
number of suggestions from the IME. Who deal with "real" explosives.

> (One thing I'm wondering... I've never seen any explosives safety manuals
> or blasting cap product instruction sheets, but wouldn't correct handling
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> -dave w

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

shockwaveriderz - 30 Oct 2004 19:28 GMT
>> Just as the letters in 1994 are illegal.....the Judge seems to me is
>> making a major error in saying that the 1994 BATFE letters to AT mean
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The judge has never ruled on anything to do with the legitimacy of the
> 1994 letters. That issue was not raised in the lawsuit.

David: I understand and agree with you that the Judge has never ruled on the
legitimacy of the 1994 letters from the BATFE to AT.... SO why does the
judge continue to make reference to them in his opinions?

for example you stated:

The judge ruled earlier this year that the BATFE's change in position from
the  1994 letter was invalid because it did not go through the proper rule
making  process. If anyone actually read that letter (attached to court
filings)
they  would have read:

"The Aerotech products which have been classified by the Department of
Transportation as a flammable solid 4.1 or as explosives 1.4c, which are
within   the 62.5 grams limit contained in NFPA 1122 and conform to the
requirements
of  model rocket motors as set forth in 16 CFR section 1500.85(a)(8)(ii),
would
meet  the ATF requirements for exemption under 27 CFR Part 55, section
141(a)(8)."

Here we have the judge ruling that the BATFe change in position from the
1994 letters was invalid.....because it did not go through the rulemaking
process.... I am saying that the 1994 letters to AT from the BATFe is alo
invalid rulemaking on the BATFE's part..... Does that make sense?   No
determination yet seems to be made if the 1994 letters have any validity but
the judge continues to refernce such documents

>> and why is NPRM 968 so intent on totally changing the definition of TPD
>> if TPD doesn't exist anymore?

I still do not understand how the TPD exemption at 55.141(a) (7) (iii) doe
not currently exist but the BATFe vis NPRM 968 is attempting to redefine an
exmeption that supposedly hasn't existed since 1998....

shockie B)
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:31 GMT
> Nobody
> noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141.

because club leaders were disregarding it despite some vendors screaming
loudly about it.

Vulcan (blackballed)
ACS (Banned)
Kosdon (decertified)
U.S. Rockets (decertified).

> Note that the exemption in NPRM 968 is the BATFE's interpretation of what the
> old exemption meant. Of course the correct updated version would be to exempt
> class 1.4 rocket motors or reload kits.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

W. E. Fred Wallace - 31 Oct 2004 04:44 GMT
> ? Nobody
> ? noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> --
> Jerry

Do you have new information to share with the group jerry?  If you
don't, I'm almost sure someone else will soon..(;-)
Phil Stein - 31 Oct 2004 13:28 GMT
>> ? Nobody
>> ? noticed the little detail hidden away in 55.141.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Do you have new information to share with the group jerry?  If you
>don't, I'm almost sure someone else will soon..(;-)

I didn't say anything.
Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 04:27 GMT
> I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR
> 55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 when
> the
> DOT revised their rules to "harmonize" them with UN hazmat standards.

Nope. DOT made specific provision for that!

Note 49 CFR 173.63
All division 1.4 (including s,c,g) are equivelant to Class C.

> That
> revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT
> regulations
> and replaced it with a couple of NA numbers.

So what was their justification at the time? And I mean literally and
verbatim.

> Go to http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html and drag up 27
> CFR for various years and look.
[quoted text clipped - 230 lines]
> >> Most of these recent documents should eventually appear on the TRA web
> >> site.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

David Schultz - 31 Oct 2004 05:12 GMT
>>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR
>>55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991 when
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Note 49 CFR 173.63
> All division 1.4 (including s,c,g) are equivelant to Class C.

Insufficient. The BATF referenced a specific definition of "toy propellant
devices" and that vanished.

But you knew that.

>>That
>>revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So what was their justification at the time? And I mean literally and
> verbatim.

You can look it up in the Federal Register just as easily as I can.

But it will require a trip to a federal repository library as the online version
doesn't go back that far. I don't feel sufficiently motivated to go look it up
so you are on your own.

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

Jerry Irvine - 31 Oct 2004 05:44 GMT
> >>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR
> >>55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> But you knew that.

1995

27 CFR 55.141(a)(7)
The importation and distribution of fireworks classified as Class C
explosives and generally known as "common fireworks", and other Class C
explosives, as described by U.S. Department of Transportation
regulations in 49 CFR 173.100 (p), (r), (t), (u) and (x)."

Apparantly you are wrong.

> >>That
> >>revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> up
> so you are on your own.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

David Schultz - 31 Oct 2004 14:29 GMT
>>>>I have bad news for you. The toy propellant device exemption at 27 CFR
>>>>55.141(a)(7) vanished in 1998. That rule had been antiquated since 1991
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Apparantly you are wrong.

I said that version changed in 1998 so of course it is still there in 1995. Try
looking for 49 CFR 173.100 which is where the definition of "toy propellant
devices" is at. Good luck

>>>>That
>>>>revision removed the "toy propellant device" definition from the DOT
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>up
>>so you are on your own.

Signature

David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz

 
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