Model Forum / General / Rockets / October 2004

Don't sweat it -- the G64 contains 62.5 grams of propellant, and the ATF
is only claiming motors that contain OVER 62.5 grams require a LEUP.

You're fine, no matter the outcome, at least with that motor.

-Kevin

Others are legal with much more.  I don't see why with a little wotk
you couldn't be.

Bit, why don't you wait until we find out what the lawyers have to say, before
panicking? Or even the ATF, for that matter? It's not like they're running
around busting people for G motors the moment we get a questionable ruling.

Take a deep breath and calm down.

Send it to me, i'll dispose of it.

Many people make all this ATF mess seem like the end of the world. I used to
be one of those people. I'm not picking on anybody in particular here, so
when I say "you," I mean that in a rhetorical way.

Firstoff, I haven't heard of a single case of the ATF enforcing their rules
on people (as far as rocket motors go). I don't want to hear any of that
crap about Jerry Irvine and the DOT fines. That was the DOT, not the ATF,
and is therefore beyond the scope of this message. If I should ever hear
that somebody has been busted for having an H128 without a LEUP, then I will
be concerned.

Secondly, when you get down to the level of individual agents, NOT THE
BUREAUCRACY, do you really think that somebody at the ATF is going to want
to drive out to the middle of nowhere on a Saturday or Sunday to bust a few
guys out flying rockets? The apes at the head of the Bureau can scare us all
they want, but the actual people who do the work probably won't do anything.
The ATF has better things to with its manpower do than to actively go after
us. The "rockets as missiles" video was a result of us making the leadership
mad. The video got nowhere and will probably never surface.

This whole mess could have been avoided if we had not got involved with the
ATF in the first place. Rocketeers are amateur scientists! We know that APCP
is not an explosive! We know that in the grand scheme of things, the amount
of propellant we typically use is insignficant (think about how much
propellant is in a NASA booster). We kept asking them if what we were doing
was OK, and each time, they gave us a stricter interpretation of the rules.
This case should have been put to rest 10 years ago.

Things are not as bad as they seem. Just get on with it fly your rockets.

According to TRA and NAR who suggest following illegal internal BATF
rulings (not the law itself) until their lawsuit is settled (which has
only 5000 citizens represented out of 271 million, then yes.

You know, the details of compliance and certification and the lawsuit,
ad infinitum,
ARE confusing.  But, I think, the root causes of all this are being
overlooked.
It's not the chemistry, IMHO.

Schumer, Lautenberg, and Moschella made it quite clear, I thought, that
explosives
and propellants were NOT the real issues to the Feds; rockets are.  The
NFPA is an
insurance advocate concerned with liability issues; they are worried
about possible
payouts on claims.  BATFE is only concerned with maintaining
administrative law
power and authority in order to justify their continued existence after
the big split;
they don't want an exemption to ursurp their regulatory power.

We are being affected by many forces, yet seem to be fixated upon, or
lost within, the
details of motor regulation.  We can't seem to keep the forest in view.

SpaceShipOne just won the X-prize.  Civilian participation in space
development is
at a new beginning.  The public has an ear turned towards private
aerospace right
now.  How are we capitalizing on it?

Geez, I mean the X-prize winner used a hybrid motor.  What a way to
promote hobby
rocketry and hybrids.  They reached "space", not because of government
funding or
national effort, but through an understanding of rockets, among other
things.

It is the VERY example of the benefit of sport rocketry to the nation.
Its the "I told you
so" comeback to ignorant regulators and regulations.  It is the
archetypical justification
for our sport, beyond simple fun.  Who will promote and further private
sector space
development?  New blood interested in space and rockets.  It is not just
NASA's game
any more.  It demonstrates that ideas and interest are more powerful
than big budgets,
that rocket science is not the domain of only a few.  It shows the
positive side of our
sport and our endeavors.

SS1 demonstrated that innovation and new ways of thinking are what makes
things
previously impossible, possible.  Mr. Rutan and his team have lowered
the aerospace
bar forever, have generated a "space connection" closer to the masses
than ever before.

THIS is what we should be promoting and expanding upon.  We need a
generation of
rocket scientists to finish what Burt and Steve started.  We need to
throw SS1 into the
faces of ignorant legislators and ask for their support in advancing
private aerospace by
encouraging it, not killing it off.

Its the ideal time for sport rocket entities and enthusiasts to align
themselves in a
cooperative effort with these fledgling private aerospace companies to
promote
and advance private space development.  Scaled Composites has planted
the rally flag,
we need to gather around it.

Hey, welcome to my situation! I have one of those 29/40-120 casings. I
love that thing. It's lot's of fun to use and I have had maybe 100
successful flights with it.  But it hasn't been used in about 5 years.
Why? Can't buy reloads for it anywhere.  We had 5 hobby stores close
around here in the last few years. The closest one is over 50 miles
away.  Can't even buy Estes motors anywhere but Walmart anymore.

So my advice is, if you can get away with using and can find reloads
easily, use that sucker for all it's worth.  I certainly miss flying
mine.