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Model Forum / General / Rockets / December 2004Magazine construction
27 CFR 55 subpart K outlines the requirements for type 4 magazine construction. Type 1, 2, and 3 requirements are specific as to the minimum metal thickness. Type 4 does not mention a minimum gage only that the outside must be metal clad or covered. Is there a minimum thickness and if so, where is it stated? It also appears that welding is not a requirement. Any help would be appreciated.  SignatureHave a great day, Randy >27 CFR 55 subpart K outlines the requirements for type 4 magazine >construction. Type 1, 2, and 3 requirements are specific as to the minimum [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Any help would be appreciated. Before going to much trouble, I suggest speaking to the inspector that you will be working with. You might get all kinds of advice here but the inspector has the final word. Also, have you checked the orange book? It might be easier to locate info there & that's what the inspectors always page through when I've seen them check something. > 27 CFR 55 subpart K outlines the requirements for type 4 magazine > construction. Type 1, 2, and 3 requirements are specific as to the minimum > metal thickness. Type 4 does not mention a minimum gage only that the > outside must be metal clad or covered. As a certain Bob once said, thee orange book description makes a cigar box covered in foil topped with dual hasps and padlocks a Type 4 magazine. But I doubt your inspector would like it ;-) It is supposed to be "theft-resistant"; that is where the subjective opinion of your inspector will come into play. I believe 18 ga. usually passes. -- David >> 27 CFR 55 subpart K outlines the requirements for type 4 magazine >> construction. Type 1, 2, and 3 requirements are specific as to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But I doubt your inspector would like it ;-) > It is supposed to be "theft-resistant"; that is where the subjective opinion > of your inspector will come into play. I believe 18 ga. usually passes. Theft resistant is the unlocked mil surplus ammo boxes with Estes motors that I keep in the basement. Much more theft resistant than an attached garage, detached garage, or garden shed. Especially since you'd have to get past the dog on the way in and out. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org "For as adamant as my country has been about civil liberties during peacetime, it has a long history ... of failing to preserve civil liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan There you go, trying to apply logic and common sense! To quote a well-known poster on RMR: 'And as I'm also fond of saying, "It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense!" ' -- David >> It is supposed to be "theft-resistant"; that is where the subjective >> opinion [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- > former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan This is exactly where the lock concerns come in. I asked my agent about their being variabilities in acceptance of mortise locks. Some agents are OK with them, others, with the same locks are not good enough. He said it depends on the enclosure the magazine is stored in. If you have your magazine in a flimsy shed they will require larger locks. But if you have a locked, alarmed garage, you could get away with cheap locks on the mag. RDH8 > It is supposed to be "theft-resistant"; that is where the subjective opinion > of your inspector will come into play. I believe 18 ga. usually passes. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > But I doubt your inspector would like it ;-) >> 27 CFR 55 subpart K outlines the requirements for type 4 magazine >> construction. Type 1, 2, and 3 requirements are specific as to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > covered in foil topped with dual hasps and padlocks a > Type 4 magazine. *%@^! I was about to say that! Perhaps I'll do that just to jerk them around. Although I'll need something bigger than a cigar box. A computer box? I've noted before that a Craftsman metal tool box with a padlock would easily meet the requirements. So would one of those inexpensive gun cabinets with the tubular key lock. I don't understand how they determined that the magazine that Magnum sold doesn't meet the requirements. Each time they inspected my storage, they whip out the calipers to see what the thickness of the metal is. Of course they haven't been smart enough to realize that they all have folded over lips, so they are measuring places that are thicker than the rest of the box. And as I'm also fond of saying, "It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense!" > But I doubt your inspector would like it ;-) Which reminds me of the story of how the angel got on top of the Christmas tree... Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org "For as adamant as my country has been about civil liberties during peacetime, it has a long history ... of failing to preserve civil liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan Randy, Type 4 are not spelled out in the "Orange Book" check with your ATF agent before you do anything, just to see what they will approve..My long story short..I was required to replace my type 3 "day box" with a Type 4..I could not find any specs so I built it to the type 3 specs..figuring stronger would be better..it took me 2 weeks to convince my agent and her supervisor that it was as good if not better then a type 4..and they could not find any specs for a type 4 either. Tony Aloha Randy, I built a storage mag using 1/8" steel plate and 1/4" steel armoring the locks, hasps, and hinges. The fire marshal and BATF giggled when they saw the thing. It qualifies and is classed as a High Explosive mag. (overkill is a good thing) There is NEVER any problem with this mag passing inspection. The down side is.....you need 3 guys to lift it. It is heavy! The materials were a little more expensive, but the ease of passing inspection has to be worth something to you. Best Wishes, Larry Go to Home Depot and buy their new Job/Tool box. It looks like it is made by Greenlee but it had dual locks and is painted orange. The same size Greenlee box only has one lock. I use the Greenlee and it passes inspection. I just had my ATF inspection and everything went fine. I have had my permit for over two years. > 27 CFR 55 subpart K outlines the requirements for type 4 magazine > construction. Type 1, 2, and 3 requirements are specific as to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any help would be appreciated. > Go to Home Depot and buy their new Job/Tool box. It looks like it is made by > Greenlee but it had dual locks and is painted orange. The same size Greenlee > box only has one lock. I use the Greenlee and it passes inspection. I just > had my ATF inspection and everything went fine. I have had my permit for > over two years. Some of those job boxes are labeled "NOT FOR EXPLOSIVES STORAGE" I'm sure just because of liability concerns. The JBGTs have refused to accept them because of that label, even though they fully meet all requirements. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org "For as adamant as my country has been about civil liberties during peacetime, it has a long history ... of failing to preserve civil liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type of steel and designed to fail with minimal fragmentation and shrapnel should an accidental ignition occur. Job boxes, are designed to remain intact despite severe daily abuse and operating conditions. It's likely that what makes a good "Job Box" also makes a very fine pipe bomb (albiet extra large) That said, for a non-explosive product like APCP a job box seems like an excellent day box. Certainly much better constructed and cheaper than the MSM mag that I bought. Philip http://www.OdorDestroyer.com "Bob Kaplow" > Some of those job boxes are labeled "NOT FOR EXPLOSIVES STORAGE" I'm sure > just because of liability concerns. The JBGTs have refused to accept them [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- > former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan Yeah, those MSM/Magnum mags are flimsy. Very obvious that they were designed to just make spec. I still have to get the lock upgrade from MSM. Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 > IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type of > steel and designed to fail with minimal fragmentation and shrapnel should an [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- >> former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan >IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type of >steel and designed to fail with minimal fragmentation and shrapnel should an >accidental ignition occur. This may be true but the Orange Book makes no mention of this as a requirement, inspectors don't ask about it & very few have the means to check it. >>IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type of >>steel and designed to fail with minimal fragmentation and shrapnel should an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > requirement, inspectors don't ask about it & very few have the means > to check it. Any evidence of inspectors coming up with their own standards, beyond what is written inthe regulations is EXACTLY what needs to be forwarded on to the legal team to be used against them in court. They can't just make up the rules as they go. Well, they CAN and they DO, but it is illegal for them to do so but it seems that so far no one is about to arrest and jail them for it. As soon as that is fixed, many of our problems will vanish. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in an American flag. True. I was just commenting on my Greenlee makes that statement in their instructions. Philip > >IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type of > >steel and designed to fail with minimal fragmentation and shrapnel should an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > requirement, inspectors don't ask about it & very few have the means > to check it. >IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type of >steel and designed to fail with minimal fragmentation and shrapnel should an >accidental ignition occur. There are currently no orange book requirements regarding either the grade of steel, or minimum/maximum thickness...IIRC. Once they are lined, those job boxes make very suitable magazines, providing that they meet the mortised lock requirement. I know of many LEUP holders that use them, including one on site LEDP holder that has several. Mike Fisher If they're painted on the inside, I don't think they even need to be lined (if by lined, you mean wood installed on the inside). -- David > >IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type > >of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Mike Fisher Have to be lined with a nonsparking material? Paint doesn't "spark".... A lot depends on your inspector's interpreitation I guess. Someone I know once got his inspector to admit that, technically speaking, baloney is a non-sparking material. > If they're painted on the inside, I don't think they even need to be lined > (if by lined, you mean wood installed on the inside). [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> Mike Fisher > Have to be lined with a nonsparking material? Paint doesn't "spark".... A > lot depends on your inspector's interpreitation I guess. Someone I know > once got his inspector to admit that, technically speaking, baloney is a > non-sparking material. ROTFLMAO! Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal >> Have to be lined with a nonsparking material? Paint doesn't "spark".... A >> lot depends on your inspector's interpreitation I guess. Someone I know [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L Technicaly, bologna just stinks, while baloney is technicaly a non material, or immaterial. I think APCP is also a non-sparking material. Alan > IIRC, explosives storage magazines are constructed of a particular type of > steel and designed to fail with minimal fragmentation and shrapnel should an > accidental ignition occur. There are no such requirements for low explosives magazines. In fact I inquired about a new ammo box, and they want it sealed, so that in the event something happens inside, it WILL explode, instead of venting. Stupid. ITIOTS! Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in an American flag. Remove the sticker. It is only there to protect the mfg. from liability. I lined the box with cardboard for the non spark requirement and it was done. >> Go to Home Depot and buy their new Job/Tool box. It looks like it is made >> by [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- > former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan As others have said, nothing is stated about material or thickness. Only that it is metal, or metal covered wood, with a non sparking lining on the floor and walls. The toughest requirement is the lock. I just received my intended magazine for Christmas today. I called my local ATF office, and inquired about it before hand. It is a metal gun cabinet, available from Wal Mart, for about 80 dollars. It comes with a 3 point locking mechanism, which meets the requirements. It doesn't have to be lined, as it's painted with a baked on epoxy enamel. I do plan to line it with plywood, only so I can put some shelving in it. I will also have to paint mine red, and have the 3 inch lettering on the exterior to meet my state specs. The best suggestion I've heard, is to contact your local office, and ask them before hand, if what you intend to use will be acceptable. David > 27 CFR 55 subpart K outlines the requirements for type 4 magazine > construction. Type 1, 2, and 3 requirements are specific as to the minimum [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Have a great day, > Randy > can put some shelving in it. I will also have to paint mine red, and have > the 3 inch lettering on the exterior to meet my state specs. The red paint and lettering is not a BATFE requirement. My local folks didn't care. And 3" lettering is kind of hard to fit on a box thats only 5x7x9 like my small box is. Of course, per the regs, those letters could be 3" x .001"... If I label my new one at all, it will probably say "Rocket Motors, keep JBGTs away" Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and the security of all Americans. |
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