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Model Forum / General / Rockets / January 2005NAr JR Certification Participation program
Jerry sez: "He cannot buy HPR motors even with adult supervision as set forth by CPSC. No, he cannot legally (nor can they be legally sold to him) purchase the motors, but his parent or guardian can purchase them for his use. "He cannot load his own reloadable motors as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, can." Where does it say in the NFPA codes or CPSC that an adult can allow his son/daughter to assemble or load a hpr rocket motor into a hpr rocket, under their direct adult supervision? "He cannot prep any dual deployment system, flash pan system, ematch cluster or anything else specifically including ematches or BP, as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, ....." PLease cite where it says a parent or adult guardian cannnot allow their son/daughter to perform these activities under direct supervision? Participation mean with direct adult supervision...... shockie B) > Jerry sez: > > "He cannot buy HPR motors even with adult supervision as set forth by CPSC. > > No, he cannot legally (nor can they be legally sold to him) purchase the > motors, but his parent or guardian can purchase them for his use. Not in HPR if the parent is not also HPR certified. (new NAR HPR-jr rule) > "He cannot load his own reloadable motors as any model rocketeer, or any > adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, can." > > Where does it say in the NFPA codes or CPSC that an adult can allow his > son/daughter to assemble or load a hpr rocket motor into a hpr rocket, under > their direct adult supervision? NAR HPR-jr rules. Hence anything outside of that is not within the NAR safety code or regeime. > "He cannot prep any dual deployment system, flash pan system, ematch cluster > or anything else specifically including ematches or BP, as any model > rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, ....." > > PLease cite where it says a parent or adult guardian cannnot allow their > son/daughter to perform these activities under direct supervision? Again a non-HPR certified parent or guardian. Here: http://www.rocketryforum.com/reviews/narss/NAR_JR_APP.pdf Carl Tulanko Chairman NAR Sport Services NAR 79454 L3CC Administrator The Rocketry Forum ---------------------------------------------------------- NAR Junior HPR Participation Program Announced By NAR President Mark ³Bunny² Bundick Thanks to the hard work of the Sport Services Committee, I¹m happy to announce our new NAR Junior HPR Participation Program. This program provides a way for NAR Junior members, aged 14-17, a chance to fly H and I motors. Please read on to find out the details of our newest HPR user program! The Level 1 Junior/Leader HPR participation program will follow the same basic procedure used for the HPR certification for Senior NAR members. However, due to CPSC restrictions pertaining to the purchase and possession of high power rocket motors and related items, there are additional requirements. It¹s important for NAR Senior member administering the Junior HPR Participation Program to keep those legal requirement in mind whenever Juniors are participating in HPR flights. The additional requirements have been placed on Junior HPR participants: 1. All HPR flights performed by the Junior and Leader NAR member must be directly supervised by an adult who is HPR certified L1 or greater, and can legally purchase and possess the motor or reload kit used for the flight. 2. Use of ³electric matches² or black powder (other than that present in the assembled motor) is not permitted. 3. Motor assembly (if required) and installation onto the airframe is to be performed by the supervising adult under the direction of the Junior/Leader participant. 4. The adult supervising the flight must be willing to be listed as the flier of record and understand that they are assuming full responsibility and liability for the flight as if it were their own. 5. The supervising adult must be present when the Junior/Leader HPR participant delivers the airframe to the RSO for pre-flight inspection and placement on the launch pad. 6. Post-flight inspection of the airframe and documentation for HPR certification flights employs the same procedures as those for a NAR Senior Level 1 Certification flight. When the HPR certified NAR Leader member turns 18 years of age, the adult supervision requirements are lifted and the certification converts to that of a NAR Senior member. At that time the member also becomes eligible to attempt their NAR L2 HPR certification flight. The NAR Board of Trustees approved this program at our NARAM-46 meeting, August 2004. We hope that members will find this program a new way to further engage NAR Junior and Senior members in their local activities. We also hope those Senior members involved in the Junior HPR Participation Program will enjoy their mentoring experience to young rocketeers all over the country. None of the NAR¹s HPR user programs would exist without the hard work of the Sport Services Committee, currently chaired by Carl Tulanko, with John Lyngdal as Trustee Advisor to the committee. Carl would not have been able to produce this new program without the groundwork laid by outgoing Chairman Steve Lubliner. Steve created and managed all aspects of the NAR¹s user certification programs, starting literally from scratch, and created the NAR¹s largest member service program. Thanks to all of these volunteers for continuing the NAR¹s long standing tradition of member service volunteering! Members with questions about the programs should contact Sport Services Chairman Carl Tulanko, 474 Old SR 74, Apt 511, Cincinnati, OH 45244 , or via email at tulanko@hotmail.com. Who¹ll be the first NAR Junior HPR HPR Participation Program flyer? Look for an announcement in the next issue of Sport Rocketry, and get flying! Pay forward! Aim high! > Participation mean with direct adult supervision...... > > shockie B)  SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 An important demographic in the NAR is the father/son or father/daughter ...if we can encourage more family activity it will attract more families over time.....which will grow the NAR base...Its a positive step in the right direction.....the NAR has always encouraged family model rocketry, now they can add HPR to that family activity.... this will hopefully lead to future adultr HPR flyers..... at least the NAR has a program with guidelines, over at TRA, they have a junior HPR membership but they don't tell you how that kid is supposed to get hold of HPR stuff....DOH perhaps the TRA will adopt some mutually agreeable JR program with the NAR....? shockie B) > Jerry sez: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > shockie B) over at TRA, they have a > junior HPR membership but they don't tell you how that kid is supposed to > get hold of HPR stuff....DOH Example of what you ask about: Dad is certified. He buys a motor and puts it in JRs rocket. he fills out the flight card for record. legal beagle > perhaps the TRA will adopt some mutually agreeable JR program with the > NAR....? > > shockie B) > over at TRA, they have a > > junior HPR membership but they don't tell you how that kid is supposed to > > get hold of HPR stuff....DOH > > Example of what you ask about: > Dad is certified. 99.999% of dad's are not certified. > He buys a motor and puts it in JRs rocket. > he fills out the flight card for record. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > shockie B) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. 95% of TRA dad's are certified. he asked about TRA and how they did it. that how it's done. ;-) Assuming that the dad does all the legal and tech stuff for the kid. The kid just watches as they do now at a NAR or Tripoli launch. What does the kid get out of this? Proxy certification? What about his Leup? Ken > Assuming that the dad does all the legal and tech stuff for the kid. The > kid just watches as they do now at a NAR or Tripoli launch. > > What does the kid get out of this? Proxy certification? What about his > Leup? > Ken I keep asking this and the author of the rule himself did not like it: I wrote: What are Ian's practical benefits for being HPR certified, besides the "merit badge"? He cannot buy HPR motors even with adult supervision as set forth by CPSC. He cannot load his own reloadable motors as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, can. He cannot prep any dual deployment system, flash pan system, ematch cluster or anything else specifically including ematches or BP, as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, can. Many other limitations not listed specifically. Sooo? Why? I ask. I want a rational, non-political answer. Tulanko: After just giving you the choice, I see nothing positive in your last statement, so we obviously all know where you now stand when it comes to helping and encouraging our young rocketeers to participate in new and exciting programs. It is a shame you can not continue to offer assistance to our youth in this manner; as you stated, you have done so in the past, which has never been disputed, however, your future seems questionable. I can only hope that in the future you will change your mind and once again assist with helping our young fliers and with the growth of our hobby. If you wish to comment further, I would insist we take this off line so the thread can get back on track. Mike, you most certainly can build an altimeter bay and use it for recording during all your flights. Please let us know how you do with your flight and we hope you will keep us posted, to include pics...remember, we love to see pics! Best Regards, Note the subject header was: Announcing the NAR Junior HPR Participation Program My trolls will cheerfully note I am being personally attacked by yet another board administrator and NAR program leader. I find it sad. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 jerry: there you go again , spewing forth your propaganda and your FUD..... A minor can do all of this with direct adult supervision.....there is nothing in the CPSC or NFPA that says an adult cannot directly supervise a minor with HPR...... shockie B) >> Assuming that the dad does all the legal and tech stuff for the kid. The >> kid just watches as they do now at a NAR or Tripoli launch. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > My trolls will cheerfully note I am being personally attacked by yet > another board administrator and NAR program leader. I find it sad. > jerry: there you go again , spewing forth your propaganda and your FUD..... Huh? > A minor can do all of this with direct adult supervision.... EXCEPT within the NAR HPR jr program. THAT is the point. > there is > nothing in the CPSC or NFPA that says an adult cannot directly supervise a > minor with HPR...... Agreed. > shockie B) > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > My trolls will cheerfully note I am being personally attacked by yet > > another board administrator and NAR program leader. I find it sad. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > A minor can do all of this with direct adult supervision.....there is > nothing in the CPSC or NFPA that says an adult cannot directly supervise a > minor with HPR...... Correct. So why does anyone need a special "junior cert" program? Since minors can do HPR without any "junior cert", it's quite clear that the "junior cert" is really nothing more than a lame merit badge system that places more restrictions on the kids than currently exist. If they really want a merit badge, create a merit badge system that doesn't add new restrictions. And CALL it a merit badge -- it's not a cert. I cannot beleive some of you people...have you all forgotten what it was like to be 13-14 years of age and get a merit badge? It was an pretty important event in the life of alot of young people as it showed them they could accomplish something positive.... shockie B) >> A minor can do all of this with direct adult supervision.....there is > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > doesn't add new restrictions. And CALL it a merit badge -- it's not a > cert. > I cannot beleive some of you people...have you all forgotten what it was > like to be 13-14 years of age and get a merit badge? It was an pretty > important event in the life of alot of young people as it showed them they > could accomplish something positive.... We are not debating the emotional satisfaction of a kid in rocketry doing ANYTHING, no matter how minor or ill-formed by those great ones on high. Rocketeers are zealots. But if your goal is to INCREASE participation in rocketry, HPR in this case, it is intuitively obvious that the best process is to learn by doing, not instruct verbally from afar. It is also iintuitively obvious that any restriction on access to HPR (especially those which are supersets of law or past practice), REDUCES participation. Hence rules that have an effect opposite the stated goal. Jerry > shockie B) > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > doesn't add new restrictions. And CALL it a merit badge -- it's not a > > cert. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > I cannot beleive some of you people...have you all forgotten what it was > like to be 13-14 years of age and get a merit badge? It was an pretty > important event in the life of alot of young people as it showed them they > could accomplish something positive.... I was never in the Scouts, so never had a merit badge. Never felt the need for one either -- anything you could get a merit badge for, you could do just as well (or better) on your own without one. As I see it, merit badges are best used in the same manner as a "gold star" from the teacher for doing your homework. It works as an enticement to do something that you normally wouldn't want to do. If an activity is something you'd want to do anyway, there's no need for any enticement. . What do your teen age children tell you? Mine thinks it's a good idea. Of course this is the same one who is 1/2 a Merit Badge and 75% of a project away from Eagle Scout. Maybe when he finally turns 14 he'll get the HPR "merit badge". What a slacker! I think your characterization of Merit Badges is wrong. Of course, I probably have more experience with them then you do ;-) >> I cannot beleive some of you people...have you all forgotten what it > was [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > . > I was never in the Scouts, so never had a merit badge. Never felt the > need for one either -- anything you could get a merit badge for, you > could do just as well (or better) on your own without one. Maybe so, but many in NRA , yes that was NRA competition as adults go for merit badges all the time. A shooter in the shooting sports goes for his distinguished. some go for getting marksmen, then expert, then master in the competitions each year at Camp Perry. > I cannot beleive some of you people...have you all forgotten what it was > like to be 13-14 years of age and get a merit badge? It was an pretty > important event in the life of alot of young people as it showed them > they could accomplish something positive.... > > shockie B) Looks like many have grown so old their youth is dead and buried. Being around young people does keep one young and I do enjoy talking with the present day youth movement in this hobby. If I ever act that old, crotchety and befuddled as some are here please tell me to leave. I will have ended my usefullness on this earth. :-) Chuck Here is the actual direct reply to Jerry's post. It is *NOT* the crap Jerry states below: "Jerry, you already know the answers to your questions and therefore need not post them as questions here. However, what you do with the answers is more important. Will you try to assist Junior rocketeers and help promote the program, or will try to find fault with all that has been presented and do nothing? The wealth of knowlege and skills you bring to our hobby could provide these youths with a wide range of techniques to learn and apply, but it is up to you to bring your skilll set to the table, if you are up to the challenge...the choice is yours. We can only hope you choose to positively influence our youths. Best Regards, Carl" Hey, Jerry. If you're so damn smart, why is it that you can't figure out how a simple copy-and-paste procedure works so you can quote people accurately? How is it that you can act surprised and indignant because the only people who believe a word you speak are the people who just don't know you yet when you can't even quote someone accurately?? >> Assuming that the dad does all the legal and tech stuff for the kid. The >> kid just watches as they do now at a NAR or Tripoli launch. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > My trolls will cheerfully note I am being personally attacked by yet > another board administrator and NAR program leader. I find it sad. I can't h > Here is the actual direct reply to Jerry's post. Very well. > "Jerry, you already know the answers to your questions I asked them to determine YOUR viewpoint on them as the chair of the committe installing the new HPR jr rules. I felt going to the source was a wise moxe. I had hoped to see a substantive reply, but all I did see was personal attack (which your co-moderator did not snip or warn you about) and OF COURSE your exercising your AUTHORITY at TRF to KILL THE DEBATE. So I repurposed my effort as you know with GRAND success. Success defined as a debate on the ISSUES with REAL back and forth discussion. Hopefully this "Version 1.0" effort can be amended considering the comments of the folks on TRF and elsewhere (notably your email). I can hope? > The wealth of knowlege and skills you bring to our hobby could provide these > youths with a wide range of techniques to learn and apply, IF they are even allowed to learn and apply them which they are NOT under the rules of the NAR HPR jr program, ironically. > but it is up to > you to bring your skilll set to the table, Those tables I am even welcome at. Some folks object to my pointing out their actions are opposite their own words or their own rules or their own stated goals. I see it annoys you too. Consider this. Most of the folks agreed with my comments. Jerry > if you are up to the > challenge...the choice is yours. > > We can only hope you choose to positively influence our youths. I have a pretty good head start sir. And PLENTY of folks are FIXATED on frustrating my efforts WITHIN either TRA or NAR. Fine. But here are what a couple of rmr folks say about your NAR HPR jr rules: In article <kllfv05o24ppvovkifeagoghtcgs1v9i7m@4ax.com>, > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:51:28 -0600, phoenix1942@webtv.net (Kenneth > Jarosch) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Alan P.S. I am sorry you are annoyed. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > My trolls will cheerfully note I am being personally attacked by yet > another board administrator and NAR program leader. I find it sad. I didn't see anything that remotely resembled a personal attack in Mr. Tulanko's reply. I do agree with you that the NAR Jr. HPR program seems to offer little more than a merit badge. It actually places more restrictions on minors than currently exist in practice. The only potential benefit I can see would be if the Jr. Cert could be turned into a regular cert when the kid comes of age. However, that doesn't seem likely since a real cert requires the flyer to assemble his own motor and prep his own deployment charges -- both of which are not permitted in the Jr. program. > I do agree with you that the NAR Jr. HPR program seems to offer little > more than a merit badge. It actually places more restrictions on minors > than currently exist in practice. Exhale. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 It actually places more restrictions on minors > than currently exist in practice. Example, my daughter or son under 18 can reload my flint lock rifle at the shooting range or field under my supervision all day long. they can play with the Household Black Powder , 209 primers and priming powder on these older guns. they can even shoot my AR-15, or my handgun. they can even reload my .223 ammo on the reloading bench. funny the most common book on reloading ammo at Cabelas or Gander Mountain shows a boy and his dad with the boy reloading. but they can't load an ejection charge ? this part just dawned on me. Yes, More restrictions. > It actually places more restrictions on minors > > than currently exist in practice. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > but they can't load an ejection charge ? Yes they can on a model rocket. Just not on HPR, and ONLY within the NAR HPR jr program. They can do ANYTHING in amateur rocketry with adult supervison on premesis. > this part just dawned on me. Yes, More restrictions. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > but they can't load an ejection charge ? > > Yes they can on a model rocket. interesting !? >> but they can't load an ejection charge ? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They can do ANYTHING in amateur rocketry with adult supervison on > premesis. Are you sure? BP outside of firearms is a hazardous material per CPSC. And that is banned for sale to minors. I asked for the the language regarding use by minors... apparently the canadian program includes similar restrictions on motors. BP for firearms has a separate exemption we can't take advantage of. > >> but they can't load an ejection charge ? > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Are you sure? BP outside of firearms is a hazardous material per > CPSC. And that is banned for sale to minors. Not sale to minors. Use by minors with adult supervision. < I asked for the the > language regarding use by minors... apparently the canadian program > includes similar restrictions on motors. > > BP for firearms has a separate exemption we can't take advantage of. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > >> but they can't load an ejection charge ? > > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Use by minors with adult supervision. The new NAR "junior participation" requirements do seem a bit inconsistent in this regard - the program provides arrangements for younger members to fly rockets that use HPR motors as long as the adult assistant "purchases and uses" the motor itself - why not a similar procedure for rockets with electrically-fired ejection charges? -dave w > > > >> but they can't load an ejection charge ? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -dave w Or high explosives. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >Assuming that the dad does all the legal and tech stuff for the kid. The >kid just watches as they do now at a NAR or Tripoli launch. > > What does the kid get out of this? Proxy certification? What about his >Leup? >Ken IMHO, it is valueless. It is just a feel good title like calling a garbage collector a sanitation engineer. The only benefit is that it allows kids to pre-certify, and obtain full L1 certification automatically on their 18 birthday. Alan > The only benefit is that it allows kids to pre-certify, and obtain full L1 certification >automatically on their 18 birthday. > >Alan Sounds like a great birthday present to me for those into the hobby. To help muddy the waters on this, my re-enactment group (Society for Creative Anachronism) has a youth program for kids that want to get involved in the armored fighting like us geezers who are 18 or older do. The primary difference between youth and adult is the weaponry used, they use padded while ours are rattan. Did I mention this is also full contact, and that the potential for mishap is likely higher than a properly supervised jr. high power flyer? The safety record there is superb, btw. Chuck > > The only benefit is that it allows kids to pre-certify, and obtain full L1 certification > >automatically on their 18 birthday. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Chuck You can start roadracing motorcycles at 10 (with parental consent), which I dare say is a little more hazardous that beating each other with padded sticks, and not even in the same dimension as toy rockets. SignatureTweak >>What about his > Leup? Dad didn't need one, why would jr ? yes, most people cert L1 without a leup, shocking is it not ? > Ken > >>What about his > > Leup? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Ken This program has NONE of the benefits of an L1 cert. So it should clearly be namned something different. Perhaps a merit badge in verbal communication with your "overseer". Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > This program has NONE of the benefits of an L1 cert. So it should > clearly be namned something different. Perhaps a merit badge in verbal > communication with your "overseer". It *is* named something different. It's named the NAR Junior Participation Program. I don't see "cert" in there anywhere. > Jerry > > This program has NONE of the benefits of an L1 cert. So it should > > clearly be namned something different. Perhaps a merit badge in verbal > > communication with your "overseer". > > It *is* named something different. It's named the NAR Junior Participation > Program. I don't see "cert" in there anywhere. Hmmm. Thank you for pointing that out for me. I therefore apologize about the naming scheme, and refocus on rules #2 and #3. Or should I also refocus on the word "participation"? Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. > > 95% of TRA dad's are certified. This is a NAR program. 99.999% of dad's are not certified. 100.000% of non-member dad's are not certified. > he asked about TRA and how they did it. > that how it's done. > > ;-) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > This is a NAR program. yes, but HE asked about how TRA did it ! > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > ;-) If Dad isn't certified, maybe Mom is. Seriously. We have several junior/leader members whose parent has gone through certification so that their child can fly. And it doesn't have to be a parent, it could be any certified adult mentor. Where there's a will, there is a way. My son thinks the NAR program is a great idea. He's been flying G motors (under my supervision) for years. Now he wants to build a L1 rocket of his own. >>> junior HPR membership but they don't tell you how that kid is >>> supposed to get hold of HPR stuff....DOH >> >> Example of what you ask about: Dad is certified. > > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. > If Dad isn't certified, maybe Mom is. Seriously. We have several > junior/leader members whose parent has gone through certification so > that their child can fly. And it doesn't have to be a parent, it > could be any certified adult mentor. > > Where there's a will, there is a way. Why not simply write the rules so it takes less will and offers more ways so the alleged goal, junior participation in HPR, is optimized, not merely a chit on the list of regulations offered by NAR hereafter referred to as a "program". Jerry > My son thinks the NAR program > is a great idea. He's been flying G motors (under my supervision) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 As a (grand)parent I can dispute that! It's the one thing guarenteed to make you certifiable. :-) Chuck, wearing a nomex straitjacket > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. Funny, that's the same amount of percentages that are fake (read: made up) You gotta source for that? Or does your statistic fall into the General "BS" category? Signature-strudle "I leave punk rock on for my cats so they'll get more hardcore while I'm out" "In terms of sheer coolness, few things beat rocketry." - Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft TRA# 10219 > > 99.999% of dad's are not certified. > > Funny, that's the same amount of percentages that are fake (read: made up) > > You gotta source for that? Or does your statistic fall into the General > "BS" category? Real. The combined number of folks certified by BOTH NAR and TRA is something like 1500 (worldwide). Number approximate and # of which are dad's unverified, so assume 100%. The father population in the USA is something in the neighborhood of 70 million. 1500/80000000=1.875 E -5 So 0.00001875 1/99.999%=0.001% 0.00001 Unless I have slipped a digit somewhere, it is pretty close. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 My 13 year old daughter has been flying HPR since she was 11. I buy the motor, and _closely_ supervise her loading it. I supervise her prepping her recovery system. I initial her flight card, and the guys at the RSO table don't even blink. They just assign her a pad. She's good. Couple dozen flights to date, and every one perfect. Everything from an H128 to an I200. First time she did it, some guy made some nasty remarks about "She can't do that!" I just pointed to the chute, and said "Yes, she can!" Found out later that it was sour grapes. He had failed his L1 that very morning, using the same motor she flew successfully! Betcha can't guess what she's getting for her next birthday... A new kit, a set of 29mm hardware, and a NAR membership... 8^) James > An important demographic in the NAR is the father/son or father/daughter > ...if we can encourage more family activity it will attract more families [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > > > shockie B) > My 13 year old daughter has been flying HPR since she was 11. I buy > the motor, < and _closely_ supervise her loading it. Not permissible under the NAR HPR jr program. You must cease allowing her to learn reloading immediately. Thank GOD you didn't let her prep dual deployment systems! Or worse, BUY HPR motors and discharge them with ONLY adult supervision as required by law. Jerry > I supervise her prepping > her recovery system. I initial her flight card, and the guys at the RSO [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > > > > > shockie B) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > An important demographic in the NAR is the father/son or father/daughter > ...if we can encourage more family activity it will attract more families [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > junior HPR membership but they don't tell you how that kid is supposed to > get hold of HPR stuff....DOH We only do things that way to get the anal retentive up in arms. Looks like we succeeded. > perhaps the TRA will adopt some mutually agreeable JR program with the > NAR....? No way. The best way to get someone's knickers in a twist? Talk about rules for toy rockets. SignatureTweak whats wrong with a coordinated Junior HPR participation program between the NAR and TRA....are we gonna end up with 2 competing programs.....at least the NAR has placed their program down in writing.....so it gives you some guidnace on how to proceed..... I mean the NAR/TRA does want the same thing: more flyers,more families partitipating....? shockie B) >> An important demographic in the NAR is the father/son or father/daughter >> ...if we can encourage more family activity it will attract more families [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The best way to get someone's knickers in a twist? Talk about rules for > toy rockets. > I mean the NAR/TRA does want the same thing: more flyers,more families > partitipating....? I disagree. They have added rules and policies that unnecessarily restrict especially HPR and go well beyond the law, and in some cases add **laws** that add intentional chokepoints that reduce the POTENTIAL market some 95%+. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>I mean the NAR/TRA does want the same thing: more flyers,more families >>partitipating....? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jerry jerry, where do you get your numbers from? your a.s? Or, maybe jerry was referring to the marketing of *his* illegally manufactured and illegally shipped motors. That's what jerry meant to say. > whats wrong with a coordinated Junior HPR participation program between the > NAR and TRA....are we gonna end up with 2 competing programs.....at least > the NAR has placed their program down in writing.....so it gives you some > guidnace on how to proceed..... The NAR program is clearly a result of member requests for it to be created. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard > > whats wrong with a coordinated Junior HPR participation program between the > > NAR and TRA....are we gonna end up with 2 competing programs.....at least > > the NAR has placed their program down in writing.....so it gives you some > > guidnace on how to proceed..... > > The NAR program is clearly a result of member requests for it to be created. The PROGRAM is a good idea. Now the RULES should be supportive of growth (and ultra-minimalistic). So MEMBERS want to spend some of THEIR money and time on outreach. Jerry > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> whats wrong with a coordinated Junior HPR participation program between the >> NAR and TRA....are we gonna end up with 2 competing programs.....at least >> the NAR has placed their program down in writing.....so it gives you some >> guidnace on how to proceed..... > >The NAR program is clearly a result of member requests for it to be created. That is obvious, but the program is all smoke and no thrust. I does not give anthing to the Jr. HPR Cerified member that they did not already have, except automatic full L1 certifation on their 18th birthday. Alan > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" > >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the > struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard > >The NAR program is clearly a result of member requests for it to be created. This sort of response is typical of a bureaucracy interested in supporting its choices despite negative or opposing user feedback. > That is obvious, but the program is all smoke and no thrust. :) Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > That is obvious, but the program is all smoke and no thrust. I does > not give anthing to the Jr. HPR Cerified member that they did not > already have, except automatic full L1 certifation on their 18th > birthday. The JR stuff is really meaningless...That's probably why TRA didn't waste their time with a "formal" program like this.... Hey, how about we do a "Jr Driver" program where a 12 year old can wash the car, fill tires with air, but not touch the keys or the motor, and can't own a car. They can watch a licensed driver put the gas in, turn the key, and drive. Then they will automatically be given them a license at 16! This was an attempt to keep membership in NAR - as most of us BARs know, at 14, 15 or 16, the hormones have kicked in and you really doubt that your parents are sane....You want to go off and do other things that are more "fun and exciting" (like dating - First base can mean as much as L1 at that age!) and you drop the hobby for a few years. The kids want to drop the hobby, and many parents will follow.... > .... as most of us BARs know, at > 14, 15 or 16, the hormones have kicked in and you really doubt that your > parents are sane....You want to go off and do other things that are more > "fun and exciting" (like dating - First base can mean as much as L1 at that > age!) wait 'till yer over 40 - 1st base is "fun and exciting" again!! >> .... as most of us BARs know, at 14, 15 or 16, the hormones have >> kicked in and you really doubt that your parents are sane....You want >> to go off and do other things that are more "fun and exciting" (like >> dating - First base can mean as much as L1 at that age!) > > wait 'till yer over 40 - 1st base is "fun and exciting" again!! That's just 2nd childhood/mid-life crisis. Personally I couldn't afford the red sports car and I wasn't into the X-gen young girls' idea of adornment (get that railroad spike outta yer nose!). So I've kept the 12 year old 200,000 mile beater-mobile, found a lady 5 years my junior (hey, that's still younger!), and got my Level one. Alot more satifying than trying to re-live a past event that didn't work out near as good as the imaginings/hopes. But then I never was one to follow fashion (no twin bandoliers of Viagra bottles here!). I much prefer learning from my mistakes so I can go find new ones to commit ;-) And in the meanwhile, I'm going to start teaching the 4 year old grandson the proper way to be a teenage sex maniac. He should start listening at about 30, like I did. :-) Chuck My informal poll of two junior members was positive. Admittedly these members are at the bottom end of the targeted age group (neither is 14 yet). While the restrictions about reloads, Black Powder, and e-matches do seem a bit excessive to this old fart the program is NOT useless. It gives the youth members a sense of ownership (a big deal when you're 14). This isn't _my_ rocket, it is _their_ rocket. If you look at motor use statistics over the last decade or so you see a big spike centered around G motors. In recent years there seems to be some skew to the right and possibly a second spike at J motors. But at least 50% of all hobby rocketry activity is at the L1 or below level. And from personal experience both at that level and from working RSO I know that motor-based ejection is still very common at L1 and below levels. With the re-emergence of SU motors (from Aerotech and Ellis) some people actually prefer simple SU motor flights to more complex electronic ones. Remember, this is a hobby. For some people more flights = more fun. Most teen agers I know fall into that category. Is the program perfect? No. But it is a good first start. Give it a year and work through the system to improve it. Throwing barbs at it on RMR is like howling at the moon: the moon doesn't hear you and it pisses your neighbors off! And your Jr Driver program reference below is a hyperbole. In Texas, like most states, we do have a Jr Driver program that starts at 15. Now you could argue that 15 is an arbitrary age and I'd agree with you (when I was a teen the permit age was 14 and driving age was 15). But watching my 15yr old drive (and remembering when I was that age) makes me glad the age is NOT 12 or 13. >> That is obvious, but the program is all smoke and no thrust. I >> does not give anthing to the Jr. HPR Cerified member that they [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > for a few years. The kids want to drop the hobby, and many > parents will follow.... > It gives the youth members a sense of ownership (a big deal when > you're 14). This isn't _my_ rocket, it is _their_ rocket. It's the same thing for us old geezers too. When that H128 roared to life for my Level 1 I still remember the feeling and thinking "Wow, that one's MINE!" > If you look at motor use statistics over the last decade or so you see > a big spike centered around G motors. In recent years there seems to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > For some people more flights = more fun. Most teen agers I know fall > into that category. This touches on something a few of us have bantered about. I was looking at the idea of "high performing" rockets in the 1/4A to A range that any grade school kid could construct and fly. Another person proposed the other end of the spectrum, the most bang without going into high power. It has produced a sleek mini that won't be seen again on a full A flight. The other has a design that can pack dual deploy if desired......."running with the big dogs" but not their certification paperwork. And I too prefer flying more over flying bigger. My favorite motors are in the E to G range. If it's bigger than an H motor there has to be a better reason than doing the testosterone shuffle "Ook ook, big rocket!" Odd thing for someone looking at Level 2 (and eventually L3) to say, eh? Chuck > And I too prefer flying more over flying bigger. My favorite motors > are in the E to G range. If it's bigger than an H motor there has to be > a better reason than doing the testosterone shuffle "Ook ook, big > rocket!" Odd thing for someone looking at Level 2 (and eventually L3) to > say, eh? Not really. I recently completed my L3. My favorite motor is still the G64. My son's favorite too ;-) > This touches on something a few of us have bantered about. I was > looking at the idea of "high performing" rockets in the 1/4A to A range [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Chuck Those sentiments are popular. Take a second look at USR kits. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > This touches on something a few of us have bantered about. I was >looking at the idea of "high performing" rockets in the 1/4A to A range >that any grade school kid could construct and fly. Well, most of them probably have already done that. You want to teach them something new. Of course it was easier in the contest glory days with A3-6T motors. > Another person >proposed the other end of the spectrum, the most bang without going into >high power. It has produced a sleek mini that won't be seen again on a >full A flight. The other has a design that can pack dual deploy if >desired......."running with the big dogs" but not their certification >paperwork. I had considered designing a "HPR trainer" MR, so that one could get experience with electronic ejection, dual deploy etc. But of course you sill have to work with BP, electric matches, etc. I'm not sure we need the complexity. Dual deploy just allows lazy bastards to recover rockets with less walking... What I have been considering more is a rocket called "The Maxx", with an artistic finnish based on that old animated movie/serial about a young woman and her monster. The rocket would be about the size of an Estes Maxi Alpha, but with a payload section and removable motor mounts. The rocket would fly easily on an E30, and perhaps do OK on a D12. However, it could also be flown as a maximum impulse MR with two G motors, or 3-4 F motors. With a payload, the same rocket could fly at the limits of LMR. > And I too prefer flying more over flying bigger. Amen! > My favorite motors >are in the E to G range. If it's bigger than an H motor there has to be >a better reason than doing the testosterone shuffle "Ook ook, big >rocket!" Odd thing for someone looking at Level 2 (and eventually L3) to >say, eh? I think a rocketeer should have a better reason for spending his money on big motors (small motors too). >Chuck Alan > I had considered designing a "HPR trainer" MR, so that one could get > experience with electronic ejection, dual deploy etc. But of course > you sill have to work with BP, electric matches, etc. I'm not sure we > need the complexity. Dual deploy just allows lazy bastards to recover > rockets with less walking... <hippie mode> A properly functioning, multiple stage recovery system is a thing of beauty, man. The rocket exists only to lift the recovery system and then be it's payload. </hm> > What I have been considering more is a rocket called "The Maxx", with > an artistic finnish based on that old animated movie/serial about a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > G motors, or 3-4 F motors. With a payload, the same rocket could fly > at the limits of LMR. Wait a minute...this is just a "BDR", for which we HPR fliers receive never ending grief. Is this a Twilight Zone episode? SignatureTweak (closet recovery freak) Flying is optional. Landing is mandatory. Landing where you can find it without being on a dried lake bed.... Priceless. > A properly functioning, multiple stage recovery system is a thing of > beauty, man. The rocket exists only to lift the recovery system and > then be it's payload. > > Tweak > (closet recovery freak) alan sez: "Dual deploy just allows lazy bastards to recover rockets with less walking..." but it also comes in real handy as a recovery enhancement aid when you launch from smaller flying sites..... shockie B) >> This touches on something a few of us have bantered about. I was >>looking at the idea of "high performing" rockets in the 1/4A to A range [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Alan > need the complexity. Dual deploy just allows lazy bastards to recover > rockets with less walking... Sorry Alan. I respect alot of what you saw, but dual deploy allows one to fly a min. dia bird to 3 miles in the midwest and get it back in the same field. >> need the complexity. Dual deploy just allows lazy bastards to recover >> rockets with less walking... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I respect alot of what you saw, but dual deploy allows one to fly a min. dia >bird to 3 miles in the midwest and get it back in the same field. Yes, that one line was a nasty bit of trolling, but it worked. Alan >I had considered designing a "HPR trainer" MR, so that one could get experience with electronic ejection, dual deploy etc. But of course you sill have to work with BP, electric matches, etc. I'm not sure we need the complexity. Dual deploy just allows lazy bastards to recover rockets with less walking... We have the complexity already, it's just over the rules not the implimentaion. And as far as "lazy bastards"....I resemble that! :-) >I think a rocketeer should have a better reason for spending his money on big motors (small motors too). > > Alan Fun is always a real good reason. I've only done 3 I-motor flights so far. The first was just because I hadn't and I could...trying to track the rocket almost gave me whiplash! (the loooooong walk to retrieve it sealed the decision over dual deploy). The other two times were when we had guests at the launch, a scout pack and the local Civil Air Patrol cadets, and I wanted to make sure they got a good show. Good theater is fun too. Chuck > it's just over the rules not the > implimentaion. . SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Is the program perfect? No. But it is a good first start. Give it > a year and work through the system to improve it. Suggestions for CHANGE are being made on rmr and TRF so it can be improved SOONER by some process other than magic or emergency failure. > > The JR stuff is really meaningless...That's probably why TRA > > didn't waste their time with a "formal" program like this.... No. They have the 1994 BOD vote for TMT to require ATF permits for exempt goods. NAR may be imperfect but TRA is a severe disaster leaking onto all of rocketry and pyrotechnic product industries. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > Is the program perfect? No. But it is a good first start. Give it > > a year and work through the system to improve it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > NAR may be imperfect but TRA is a severe disaster leaking onto all of > rocketry and pyrotechnic product industries. Publiciizing TRA-EX poked CPSC in the eye too. Let's see: TRA has negatively, drasticly, changed: NFPA ATF CPSC > Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 please cite examples.. TRA is part of the NFPA process.... TRA is about HPR.....CPSC has nothing to do with HPR (only Model Rocketry) You may have a point about teh BATFe...don't really know... shockie B) >> > Is the program perfect? No. But it is a good first start. Give it >> > a year and work through the system to improve it. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >> Jerry > TRA is part of the NFPA process.... TRA is about HPR.....CPSC has > nothing to do with HPR (only Model Rocketry) Could someone post the exact wording on how the CPSC allows use of hazardous materials by minors with adult supervision? Everything I've found says no sales to or use by minors. Some things (like model rocket motors and common fireworks) are specifically exempted. I'm guessing firearms too because my son and I burned through more Black Powder at scout camp in a week than we will EVER use through rocketry. Even the CAR HPR program says the minors can not assemble or install the motor. > > TRA is part of the NFPA process.... TRA is about HPR.....CPSC has > > nothing to do with HPR (only Model Rocketry) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've found says no sales to or use by minors. Some things (like > model rocket motors and common fireworks) are specifically exempted. I have no problem with wording the policy such that the adult mentor is the "agent of legal record" for the acts of "purchase and use" of the motor (i.e., kid bulds the rocket, dad buys the motor and signs the flight card)... I know of folks who do that on an informal basis already, and it's been posted that the CAR "junior participation" program is set up in a similar way... I believe I was one of the folks who sent in a suggestion to NAR that some such program be set up, and I expected, as with the CAR program, some sort of "adult as Designated Owner of motor" provision, specifically to address potential regulatory concerns regarding "purchase by minors" of larger motors... -dave w > > > TRA is part of the NFPA process.... TRA is about HPR.....CPSC has > > > nothing to do with HPR (only Model Rocketry) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the motor (i.e., kid bulds the rocket, dad buys the motor and signs > the flight card)... The flight card is not a legal requirement or element. The kid can do it just fine herself. > I know of folks who do that on an informal basis > already, and it's been posted that the CAR "junior participation" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -dave w SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > I believe I was one of the folks who sent in a suggestion to NAR that > some such program be set up, and I expected, as with the CAR program, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -dave w Why wouldn't existing regs and laws be conrtrolling so the "program" need not address that issue at all. The problem with NAR and TRA is they write overlapping rules and GET THEM WRONG so often. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 From the CAR website: Senior HPR Certification requires skills and knowledge in three areas: 1.Theory and knowledge 2.Construction skills 3.Motor handling, assembly, and use Junior members can participate under the first two activities, but ERD regulations prohibit junior participation in the third category. Junior certification tests the first two areas in the same manner that senior certifications are done: Exam for the first and airframe examination and RSO questioning on the second. and The certification steps are: Junior member writes the exam exactly the same as a senior member. Junior member builds and prepares the airframe himself or herself. Sponsoring senior member prepares and installs the motor. and When the member turns 18, they must re-fly 1 rocket at the HIGHEST certification level achieved, selecting, building and installing the motor themselves, and if this flight is successful then they are given full certification at this level as a Senior CAR member. So the Canadian program has the same restriction that the junior member can not assemble or install the motor. This is apparently to comply with Canadian law. I suspect CPSC regulations have similar stipulations. Current compliance and enforcement aside. > I have no problem with wording the policy such that the adult mentor > is the "agent of legal record" for the acts of "purchase and use" of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -dave w > > TRA is part of the NFPA process.... TRA is about HPR.....CPSC has > > nothing to do with HPR (only Model Rocketry) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Even the CAR HPR program says the minors can not assemble or install > the motor. Federal law says you can buy and store up to 50 pounds of BP "...intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or in antique devices." Some folks interpret that sentence one way, some another. Regardless of you, I or ATF interpret it, the fact remains that this exemption allows anyone to buy BP. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 alex: I'm not sure there is any exact wording per se...at least as far as I can find... Sec. 1500.85 Exemptions from classification as banned hazardous substances. (a) The term banned hazardous substances as used in section 2(q)(1)(A) of the act shall not apply to the following articles provided that these articles bear labeling giving adequate directions and warnings for safe use: (8) Model rocket propellant devices designed for use in light-weight, recoverable, and reflyable model rockets, provided such devices: (i) Are designed to be ignited by electrical means. (ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams (2.2 ounces) of propellant material and produce less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound seconds) of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 second. (iii) Are constructed such that all the chemical ingredients are preloaded into a cylindrical paper or similarly constructed nonmetallic tube that will not fragment into sharp, hard pieces. (iv) Are designed so that they will not burst under normal conditions of use, are incapable of spontaneous ignition, and do not contain any type of explosive or pyrotechnic warhead other than a small parachute or recovery system activation charge. (9) Separate delay train and/or recovery system activation devices intended for use with premanufactured model rocket engines wherein all of the chemical ingredients are preloaded so the user does not handle any chemical ingredient and are so designed that the main casing or container does not rupture during operation. Sec. 1500.83 Exemptions for small packages, minor hazards, and special circumstances (36) Individual toy rocket propellant devices and separate delay train and/or recovery system activation devices intended for use with premanufactured model rocket engines are exempt from bearing the full labeling required by section 2(p)(1) of the act (repeated in Sec. 1500.3(b)(14)(i)) insofar as such requirements would be necessary because the articles are flammable or generate pressure, provided that: (i) The devices are designed and constructed in accordance with the specifications in Sec. 1500.85(a) (8) or (9): (ii) Each individual device or retail package of devices bears the following: (A) The statement ``WARNING--FLAMMABLE: Read instructions before use''; (B) The common or usual name of the article; (C) A statement of the type of engine and use classification; (D) Instructions for safe disposal; and (E) Name and place of business of manufacturer or distributor; and (iii) Each individual rocket engine or retail package of rocket engines distributed to users is accompanied by an instruction sheet bearing complete cautionary labeling and instructions for safe use and handling of the individual rocket engines. shockie B) >> TRA is part of the NFPA process.... TRA is about HPR.....CPSC has >> nothing to do with HPR (only Model Rocketry) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Even the CAR HPR program says the minors can not assemble or install the > motor. I've found the exemption, but what is it exempting FROM? So by the CPSC motors with more than 62.5gr are not exempt from classification as banned hazardous substances... banned from what? > alex: I'm not sure there is any exact wording per se...at least as far as I > can find... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that these articles bear labeling giving adequate directions and warnings > for safe use: alex: model rocket motors, as described in 1500.85 are exempted from the FULL labeling(and testing(??)) requirements that other banned hazardous substances must undergo .... ie model rocket motors have special labeling requirements, and as long as they adhere to those, they are exempted for use by minors as a banned hazardous substance..... and yes according to CPSC regs, if the motor has > 62.5 then it is considered a banned hazardous substance to those under 18, but not to adults.... http://www.herc.org/maketheconnection/docs/fhsa.pdf < -- federal hazardous substances act does this make any sense? answer your question? shockie B) > I've found the exemption, but what is it exempting FROM? So by the CPSC > motors with more than 62.5gr are not exempt from classification as banned [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> that these articles bear labeling giving adequate directions and warnings >> for safe use: Sort of. I can see where it clearly exempts model rocket motors. But I haven't been able to find the paragraph that says "for sale and/or use by those 18 or older". In regards to this thread, the "use by" is the critical part. > alex: model rocket motors, as described in 1500.8 |
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