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airliner missile defense: grounded due to costs

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shockwaveriderz - 26 Jan 2005 03:08 GMT
http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html

oh well so much for that idea....

shockie B)
Cliff Sojourner - 26 Jan 2005 04:55 GMT
> http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html
>
> oh well so much for that idea....

score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks.  it is astounding to
see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!
shockwaveriderz - 26 Jan 2005 17:13 GMT
lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley 11
billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with airliner
anti-missile countermeasures, if and when a few airliners get popped outta
the skies with manpads...
they evidently have done a cost-benefit analysis that its cheaper to pay out
insurance to 300 dead people on a regular basis then spend the 11 billion up
front... Or maybe the airlines will get congress to pass new laws that would
prevent the airliners from being sued in this case....

shockie B)

>> http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html
>>
>> oh well so much for that idea....
>
> score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks.  it is astounding to
> see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!
hitch@tda.com - 26 Jan 2005 17:56 GMT
The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting it
happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense.  Of couse
you also have to take actions that actually improve the situation
rather than just hit a hornet nest with a stick.

Brad Hitch

> lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley 11
> billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with airliner
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks.  it is astounding to
> > see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!
Jerry Irvine - 26 Jan 2005 18:35 GMT
> The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting it
> happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense.  Of couse
> you also have to take actions that actually improve the situation
> rather than just hit a hornet nest with a stick.

"just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular
tactic.

> Brad Hitch
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> astounding to
> > > see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
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Dave Grayvis - 26 Jan 2005 19:43 GMT
> "just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular
> tactic.

Just what exactly does the above statement mean?
W. E. Fred Wallace - 26 Jan 2005 21:12 GMT
> > "just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular
> > tactic.
>
> Just what exactly does the above statement mean?

I think he is speaking from his own experiences...
Dave Grayvis - 26 Jan 2005 21:25 GMT
>>>"just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular
>>>tactic.
>>
>>Just what exactly does the above statement mean?
>
> I think he is speaking from his own experiences...

Now *THAT* makes sense.

The mosaic is becoming clearer all the time.
raydunakin@aol.com - 28 Jan 2005 02:43 GMT
> The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting it
> happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense.

Bingo! Besides, Shock's cynical comment fails to consider the fact that
it's the customer who pays. If the airlines had to spend 11 billion
dollars installing anti-missile systems, how many people would be
willing to pay thousands of dollars extra per trip to cover the cost of
the system? Not to mention additional price increases making up the
loss of revenue from those who can no longer afford to fly?
Jerry Irvine - 28 Jan 2005 03:07 GMT
> > The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting
> it
> > happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense.
>
> Bingo! Besides, Shock's cynical comment fails to consider the fact that
> it's the customer who pays.

He BELIEVES in the nanny state.

> If the airlines had to spend 11 billion
> dollars installing anti-missile systems, how many people would be
> willing to pay thousands of dollars extra per trip to cover the cost of
> the system? Not to mention additional price increases making up the
> loss of revenue from those who can no longer afford to fly?

Minor ($300b) nit: Terrorism was abated by locking the airplane doors
and invading the middle east in general.

Jerry

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
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shockwaveriderz - 28 Jan 2005 03:28 GMT
I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare....
I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the
anti missile systems in place....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6867680/

shockie B)

>> > The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting
>> it
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jerry
David Weinshenker - 28 Jan 2005 03:35 GMT
> I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare....
> I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the
> anti missile systems in place....

I'd be less nervous about the hypothetical "terrorist attacks"
such a system would be intended to protect against than about
risks involved in manufacturing and maintaining it... the army
works with this sort of hardware all the time, and _they_ have
accidents... what happens in an airliner-maintenance environment
where there's more pressure to "rush it out the door and get on
with the next job ticket"? If such a "defensive" missle were to
discharge accidentally, the airlines would have _really_ "shot
themselves in the foot" as far as making the passengers feal safe!

-dave w
Dave Grayvis - 28 Jan 2005 03:50 GMT
>>I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare....
>>I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> -dave w

I don't believe we are talking about anti missile missiles, more like,
infrared jammers and chaff and the like.
Jerry Irvine - 28 Jan 2005 03:54 GMT
> > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare....
> > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the
> > anti missile systems in place....
>
> I'd be less nervous about the hypothetical "terrorist attacks"

A train accident/suicide in Glendale, CA had more death than any
"terrorist incident" since 9-11-01.

Infinitely more than rocketry.

Jerry

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

raydunakin@aol.com - 28 Jan 2005 07:41 GMT
> A train accident/suicide in Glendale, CA had more death than any
> "terrorist inc ident" since 9-11-01.
>
> Infinitely more than rocketry.

Yep. Any terrorist group with even the slightest amount of imagination
could do the same thing. I'd bet money that right now some Al Qaeda
scumbag is giving considering the possibilities. Maybe do 50 or 100 of
them simultaneously all over the country for maximum disruption and
publicity.

l
Alan Jones - 28 Jan 2005 17:29 GMT
>> > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare....
>> > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Jerry

It was impressive with one SUV taking out two trains.  Sort or like
killing two birds with one stone, with a stone that should not have
been able to kill even one bird. They may have to rethink rail safety
and security.

Alan
David Weinshenker - 28 Jan 2005 17:39 GMT
> >> > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare....
> >> > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Alan

There's a reason "like a train wreck" occupies the
position it does in our metaphorical vernacular...

-dave w
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 18:04 GMT
It was in "push" mode. Very bad to have passengers in the front car of
a train in "push" mode.

-Fred Shecter
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 19:56 GMT
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-27-push-pull_x.htm
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 20:11 GMT
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-27-push-pull_x.htm
Dave Grayvis - 28 Jan 2005 20:30 GMT
> It was in "push" mode. Very bad to have passengers in the front car of
> a train in "push" mode.
>
> -Fred Shecter

They just referred to that as the "coffin car" on the news.
Bob Kaplow - 28 Jan 2005 19:07 GMT
> It was impressive with one SUV taking out two trains.  Sort or like
> killing two birds with one stone, with a stone that should not have
> been able to kill even one bird. They may have to rethink rail safety
> and security.

Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...

    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
        >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
   www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org

       We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution,
       and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and
       the security of all Americans.
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 19:27 GMT
Don't you watch "24" on TV?

http://www.fox.com/24/
raydunakin@aol.com - 28 Jan 2005 20:12 GMT
> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...

Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the
tracks without a traceable link to the driver. No need for suicide.

œ
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 14:27 GMT
>> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...
>Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the
>tracks without a traceable link to the driver. No need for suicide.

  Just a little side-observation...

    Sometimes, it's not difficult to see the link that the BATFE
draws between us and terrorists.  I mean - any agent monitoring this
particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters
ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion.  :-)
David Weinshenker - 29 Jan 2005 15:05 GMT
> >> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...
> >Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters
> ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion.  :-)

Hmmm... so our "duty on the home front in the war on terrorism" is not
to anticipate potential vulnerabilities (in hopes that identifying them
might enable them to be secured), but to sit in quiet fear and "try not
to give them any ideas"?

-dave w
Jim Yanik - 29 Jan 2005 16:52 GMT
>> >> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...
>> >Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> -dave w

Also,BATFE can see what is proposed,maybe catch something they missed,and
begin their own studies and counter plans. I suspect those with the
greatest resources(US) has the edge and the lead.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

David Erbas-White - 29 Jan 2005 17:27 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>  

It would seem the solution to this one is simple...  Just put a turret
gunner up front on the train... <G>

David Erbas-White
David Weinshenker - 29 Jan 2005 17:36 GMT
> >>>>>Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...
> >>>>Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> David Erbas-White

Lot cheaper than lasers - especially since a stalled SUV is
way too dumb to figure out that its heat-seeker is getting
spoofed... you'd need a big enough laser to actually melt it
out of the way fast enough to do the train any good. One of
those electric-powered Gatling guns they have on helicopters
might do the job a lot quicker, with far less power input...
you could most likely operate _that_ from the diesel-electric
power system. A big laser would need its own energy source.  :)

-dave w
Dave Grayvis - 29 Jan 2005 17:45 GMT
>>  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> David Erbas-White

The turret seems unnecessary though, realistically, you would only need
to clear the tracks directly ahead of you.  How about a forward firing
105 mm smooth bore?  Or maybe a single hellfire missile?
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 19:00 GMT
>> It would seem the solution to this one is simple...  Just put a turret
>> gunner up front on the train... <G>
>The turret seems unnecessary though, realistically, you would only need
>to clear the tracks directly ahead of you.  How about a forward firing
>105 mm smooth bore?  Or maybe a single hellfire missile?

  Why not go with a low-tech solution...?  A 'leading' locomotive,
not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple
cow-catcher.  It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving
potentially-damaging things out of the way.  :-)
Dave Grayvis - 29 Jan 2005 19:46 GMT
>>>It would seem the solution to this one is simple...  Just put a turret
>>>gunner up front on the train... <G>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> cow-catcher.  It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving
> potentially-damaging things out of the way.  :-)

Actually, that is the simple solution, or let the engine pull the train,
but where would the excitement be in that?
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 23:32 GMT
>> not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple
>> cow-catcher.  It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving
>Actually, that is the simple solution, or let the engine pull the train,
>but where would the excitement be in that?

  Excitement, my Aunt Fanny.  :-P  The best solutions are often the
simplest ones... regardless of how 'sexy' they are.
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 21:23 GMT
>   Why not go with a low-tech solution...?  A 'leading' locomotive, not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving potentially-damaging things out of the way.  :-)

 Ahhhh, I got beat to the punch on this one!

Chuck
David Erbas-White - 29 Jan 2005 21:39 GMT
>>   Why not go with a low-tech solution...?  A 'leading' locomotive, not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving potentially-damaging things out of the way.  :-)
>>
>   Ahhhh, I got beat to the punch on this one!
>
> Chuck

Serves you right for beating me on Young Frankenstein! <G>

David Erbas-White
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 23:30 GMT
>>   Why not go with a low-tech solution...?  A 'leading' locomotive,
>> not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple
>> cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving
>> potentially-damaging things out of the way.  :-)
>  Ahhhh, I got beat to the punch on this one!

  Well... it takes some of us less time to hit on brilliant ideas
than others.  ;-)
Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:40 GMT
> >> It would seem the solution to this one is simple...  Just put a turret
> >> gunner up front on the train... <G>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> cow-catcher.  It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving
> potentially-damaging things out of the way.  :-)

Proven, simple, cheap, inert technology must be dismissed from the start
as unsuitable for the "new securitarian state".

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Dave Grayvis - 30 Jan 2005 15:45 GMT
>>>>It would seem the solution to this one is simple...  Just put a turret
>>>>gunner up front on the train... <G>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Proven, simple, cheap, inert technology must be dismissed from the start
> as unsuitable for the "new securitarian state".

What makes you say that?
Len Lekx - 31 Jan 2005 02:27 GMT
>> Proven, simple, cheap, inert technology must be dismissed from the start
>> as unsuitable for the "new securitarian state".
>What makes you say that?

  It *does* seem to be the way society is heading in general.  Even
in the Armed Services, research is being done on 'stealth' clothing...
outfits that use tiny TV cameras and screens to project an image of
what's behind/beside/infront of the trooper, rendering him
'invisible'.

  Tried-and-true camouflage techniques aren't good enough anymore.
;-)
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 20:44 GMT
>> It would seem the solution to this one is simple...  Just put a
>> turret gunner up front on the train... <G>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> need to clear the tracks directly ahead of you.  How about a forward
> firing 105 mm smooth bore?  Or maybe a single hellfire missile?

 I think the BATF would like the missile idea best, they've already
been able to prove they're a danger to ground targets using our motors. ;-)
 Though the gatling would be good too, as massive as a locomotive is it
wouldn't have the recoil problems of airborne units.

 But for the traditionalists out there....cow-catchers!

Chuck
randyolb@charter.net - 29 Jan 2005 18:02 GMT
> It would seem the solution to this one is simple...  Just put a turret
> gunner up front on the train... <G>

I thought that would work for the airlines too.

Just a couple of turrets on a 747 would help and you wouldn't need all the
expensive stuff that's on Air Force One.  ; )

Randy
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 20:56 GMT
>Just a couple of turrets on a 747 would help and you wouldn't need all the
>expensive stuff that's on Air Force One.  ; )
>
>Randy

 And think of the nostalgia kick it could start! 747's made up to look
like B-17's!! Could save alot of time at the airports too. Don't land to
disembark, just open the bay doors and............

Chuck
raydunakin@aol.com - 29 Jan 2005 21:20 GMT
>   And think of the nostalgia kick it could start! 747's made up to look
> like B-17's!! Could save alot of time at the airports too. Don't land to
> disembark, just open the bay doors and............

LOL!!

u
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 18:57 GMT
>Hmmm... so our "duty on the home front in the war on terrorism" is not
>to anticipate potential vulnerabilities (in hopes that identifying them
>might enable them to be secured), but to sit in quiet fear and "try not
>to give them any ideas"?

  I didn't say THAT.  But some sufficiently-paranoid bureaucrat can
mistake our musings for actual ideas... or just use our banter to
score political points at our expense.

  I'm not suggesting that we shut up about it - I *am* suggesting
that we shouldn't be surprised that others might find it a bit
unsettling.  :-)
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 21:19 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>   I'm not suggesting that we shut up about it - I *am* suggesting that we shouldn't be surprised that others might find it a bit unsettling.  :-)

 Been there and still doing that. I was sitting in a local pub
remarking about how stupid all this fashionable paranoia is when any
amatuer with $10 could go into a grocery store, then stop at a gas
station on the way back home, to then have both all the parts needed for
homebrew WMD's and change in their pocket. When challenged by another
patron, figuring I was being an anal ventriloquist (talking out my a.s),
I told him what could be created. He got this frightened "is Big Brother
watching?!" look and told me to be quiet before someone reported me. The
capper was the guy on the other side of him then popped up with some
ideas I'd left out. The world has changed, it use to be that the only
reason to take lab in school was to make some illegal explosives for the
heck of it and because we shouldn't. The only time the school ever got
evacuated was when some goodie goodie was doing what they should have
and it went waaaaay wrong. ;-)

Chuck
raydunakin@aol.com - 29 Jan 2005 21:16 GMT
> >> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...
> >Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters
> ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion.  :-)

Well, I wasn't posting anything that terrorists couldn't have thought
of themselves. Surely these guys pay attention to the news, and take
notice of incidents such as the train derailment that could be
reproduced on a wider scale. And I wouldn't go into some of the easier
ways to derail trains, though even those are probably fairly obvious.

Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 23:27 GMT
>> draws between us and terrorists.  I mean - any agent monitoring this
>> particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters
>> ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion.  :-)
>Well, I wasn't posting anything that terrorists couldn't have thought
>of themselves. Surely these guys pay attention to the news, and take

  True enough... but I was thinking more along the lines of the eager
young Federal Agent.  Looking to make a name for himself, he sees what
we're talking about and over-reacts.  He looks like a hero for
pointing out this 'potential terrorist think-tank', and we get branded
for aiding-and-abetting.
shockwaveriderz - 30 Jan 2005 02:43 GMT
I think we should sell HPR rockets to the train people and let them use them
to target and blow up the SUV's on the tracks....

now the really funny and sad  thing is the BATFE will think the above could
actually  work....

shockie B)

>>> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...
>>Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters
> ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion.  :-)
Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:36 GMT
>      Sometimes, it's not difficult to see the link that the BATFE
> draws between us and terrorists.  I mean - any agent monitoring this
> particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters
> ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion.  :-)

Maybe so, but the Homeland Security department itself has been doing
that IN PUBLIC (mass-media) for years now.

rmr is clearly an obscure culda-sack on the internet.

Jerry

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:33 GMT
> >> > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate
> >> > welfare....
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> It was impressive with one

small

> SUV taking out two trains.  Sort or like
> killing two birds with one stone, with a stone that should not have
> been able to kill even one bird. They may have to rethink rail safety
> and security.
>
> Alan

Technically three trains since the parked one was damaged and disabled
as well.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Jim Yanik - 28 Jan 2005 17:48 GMT
>> I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate
>> welfare.... I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> -dave w

I believe most of the anti-MANPADS defenses are ones that do not launch
anything at the incoming missile,but attempt to blind or spoof them,using
lasers or Xenon arc lamps. Northrop-Grumman has such a system.

The flare types of defenses are not being considered because they can start
fires on the ground,and newer MANPADS ignore them.
Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

David Weinshenker - 28 Jan 2005 18:11 GMT
> >> I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate
> >> welfare.... I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> anything at the incoming missile,but attempt to blind or spoof them,using
> lasers or Xenon arc lamps. Northrop-Grumman has such a system.

Ah, that does sound rather less dangerous (and more likely to be compatible
with the maintenance environment) than the flares and chaff-bombs I think I
was imagining.

-dave w

> The flare types of defenses are not being considered because they can start
> fires on the ground,and newer MANPADS ignore them.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> at
> kua.net
David Erbas-White - 28 Jan 2005 18:33 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>  

I worked on a laser-based system over twenty years ago for Loral.  There
was a great photo of the system in use where a missile was spoofed
completely around a chopper and kept on going.  The thing I find
surprising is that twenty-plus years later it hasn't been 'improved'
enough to be commercially cost-effective.

David Erbas-White
Jim Yanik - 29 Jan 2005 03:15 GMT
>>  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> David Erbas-White

Define "commercially cost-effective".

One commercial jet crash due to a MANPADS and the economy is going to tank
big time.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:32 GMT
> I worked on a laser-based system over twenty years ago for Loral.  There
> was a great photo of the system in use where a missile was spoofed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> David Erbas-White

The situation is 100% political and 0% science.

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 18:33 GMT
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/021205-O-9999G-003.jpg
Jerry Irvine - 28 Jan 2005 03:52 GMT
> I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare....
> I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the
> anti missile systems in place....

They locked the doors exactly as the Israelis have been telling them for
YEARS.

THEY know the terrorism threat is dispersed and ALL the efforts of
Homeland Security and "First Responders" are FEEL-GOOD measures and have
no anti-terrorist benefits whatsoever.

Or I do.

Jerry

> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6867680/
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> >
> > Jerry

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

Alan Jones - 28 Jan 2005 06:34 GMT
>> The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting
>it
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>the system? Not to mention additional price increases making up the
>loss of revenue from those who can no longer afford to fly?

Our congressmen!  They fly on commercial airlines and they believe
they are not expendable.  Of course the taxpayers really pay their
way.

Alan
Joe Pfeiffer - 26 Jan 2005 19:38 GMT
> lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley
> 11 billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> new laws that would prevent the airliners from being sued in this
> case....

No, it's much more likely that their cost-benefit analysis showed that
there's no reason to think anybody's going to successfully knock down
an airliner with a missile any time soon.
Signature

Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D.       Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science       FAX   -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University          http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer

Zathras of the Great Machine - 27 Jan 2005 00:52 GMT
>No, it's much more likely that their cost-benefit analysis showed that there's no reason to think anybody's going to successfully knock down an airliner with a missile any time soon.

 And to think all that effort by the B.A.T.F. went to waste. Makes you
think that we can't trust our own government to know what it's doing.

Chuck
Jim Yanik - 27 Jan 2005 02:27 GMT
>> lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley
>> 11 billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with
>> airliner anti-missile countermeasures, if and when a few airliners get
>> popped outta the skies with manpads...

Northrop-Grumman already has one for sale.(check their web site)
IIRC,an Israeli company has one,too.

>> they evidently have done a cost-benefit analysis that its cheaper to
>> pay out insurance to 300 dead people on a regular basis then spend the
>> 11 billion up front...

And probably ignored the financial effects of planes not flying after a jet
was shot at or downed.

> Or maybe the airlines will get congress to pass
>> new laws that would prevent the airliners from being sued in this
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> there's no reason to think anybody's going to successfully knock down
> an airliner with a missile any time soon.

Those MANPADS have small warheads;too small for a regular passenger jet.
A successful hit (but no crash) still would have great financial impact.
One might even manage to kill/wound some pax from fragments/engine debris
penetrating the fuselage.(that already happened with an engine failure on a
commercial flight some years ago)

I wonder about who did the study and who paid for it.
(airline companies,who don't want to have to install them?)

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Christopher Biow - 27 Jan 2005 13:47 GMT
>they evidently have done a cost-benefit analysis that its cheaper to pay out
>insurance to 300 dead people on a regular basis then spend the 11 billion up
>front... Or maybe the airlines will get congress to pass new laws that would
>prevent the airliners from being sued in this case....

Umm, no. The study explicitly acknowledges that a successful attack would
result in direct economic damage of more than $11 billion, with even
greater intangible effects.

They determined that relative to a limited transportation-security budget
($4.4 billion annually), spending nearly half that (based on 20-year
amortization of acquisition and maintenance costs) for this
partially-effective defense system would not be a cost-effective allocation
of resources. Put another way, there are more cost-effective ways to spend
our finite security dollars. I'd much rather see the incremental security
dollar going toward the threat of weapons of mass destruction than this
one. Filling holes ensuring effective use in funding of the Nunn-Lugar
initiative for conversion of ex-Soviet nuke technology would be much higher
and better use of funds.

Given the terrorist's almost unlimited ability to choose methods of attack,
you could probably spend the entire US GDP several times over on security
measures that would individually have economic cost lower than the damage
they are designed to prevent. In government, it's a matter of
prioritization, not blue-sky justification assuming infinite funding
resources.

>>> http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html
>>>
>>> oh well so much for that idea....
>>
>> score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks.  it is astounding to
>> see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!
Alan Jones - 27 Jan 2005 03:05 GMT
>> http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html
>>
>> oh well so much for that idea....
>
>score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks.  it is astounding to
>see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!

The above in an independent assessment by the Rand Corp.  It says
nothing about the logic or economic sense of the current
administration.  The administration could still have the things
installed, or nationalize the airline industry, or any other fool
thing.
Jerry Irvine - 27 Jan 2005 03:14 GMT
> The administration could still have the things
> installed, or nationalize the airline industry, or any other fool
> thing.

Shhh

:)

Signature

Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

 
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