airliner missile defense: grounded due to costs
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shockwaveriderz - 26 Jan 2005 03:08 GMT http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html
oh well so much for that idea....
shockie B)
Cliff Sojourner - 26 Jan 2005 04:55 GMT > http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html > > oh well so much for that idea.... score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks. it is astounding to see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!
shockwaveriderz - 26 Jan 2005 17:13 GMT lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley 11 billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with airliner anti-missile countermeasures, if and when a few airliners get popped outta the skies with manpads... they evidently have done a cost-benefit analysis that its cheaper to pay out insurance to 300 dead people on a regular basis then spend the 11 billion up front... Or maybe the airlines will get congress to pass new laws that would prevent the airliners from being sued in this case....
shockie B)
>> http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html >> >> oh well so much for that idea.... > > score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks. it is astounding to > see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!! hitch@tda.com - 26 Jan 2005 17:56 GMT The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting it happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense. Of couse you also have to take actions that actually improve the situation rather than just hit a hornet nest with a stick.
Brad Hitch
> lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley 11 > billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with airliner [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks. it is astounding to > > see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!! Jerry Irvine - 26 Jan 2005 18:35 GMT > The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting it > happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense. Of couse > you also have to take actions that actually improve the situation > rather than just hit a hornet nest with a stick. "just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular tactic.
> Brad Hitch > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > astounding to > > > see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!!
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Dave Grayvis - 26 Jan 2005 19:43 GMT > "just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular > tactic. Just what exactly does the above statement mean?
W. E. Fred Wallace - 26 Jan 2005 21:12 GMT > > "just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular > > tactic. > > Just what exactly does the above statement mean? I think he is speaking from his own experiences...
Dave Grayvis - 26 Jan 2005 21:25 GMT >>>"just hit a hornet nest with a stick", seems to be the currently popular >>>tactic. >> >>Just what exactly does the above statement mean? > > I think he is speaking from his own experiences... Now *THAT* makes sense.
The mosaic is becoming clearer all the time.
raydunakin@aol.com - 28 Jan 2005 02:43 GMT > The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting it > happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense. Bingo! Besides, Shock's cynical comment fails to consider the fact that it's the customer who pays. If the airlines had to spend 11 billion dollars installing anti-missile systems, how many people would be willing to pay thousands of dollars extra per trip to cover the cost of the system? Not to mention additional price increases making up the loss of revenue from those who can no longer afford to fly?
Jerry Irvine - 28 Jan 2005 03:07 GMT > > The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting > it > > happen in the first place rather than trying to play defense. > > Bingo! Besides, Shock's cynical comment fails to consider the fact that > it's the customer who pays. He BELIEVES in the nanny state.
> If the airlines had to spend 11 billion > dollars installing anti-missile systems, how many people would be > willing to pay thousands of dollars extra per trip to cover the cost of > the system? Not to mention additional price increases making up the > loss of revenue from those who can no longer afford to fly? Minor ($300b) nit: Terrorism was abated by locking the airplane doors and invading the middle east in general.
Jerry
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
shockwaveriderz - 28 Jan 2005 03:28 GMT I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare.... I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the anti missile systems in place....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6867680/
shockie B)
>> > The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting >> it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jerry David Weinshenker - 28 Jan 2005 03:35 GMT > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare.... > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the > anti missile systems in place.... I'd be less nervous about the hypothetical "terrorist attacks" such a system would be intended to protect against than about risks involved in manufacturing and maintaining it... the army works with this sort of hardware all the time, and _they_ have accidents... what happens in an airliner-maintenance environment where there's more pressure to "rush it out the door and get on with the next job ticket"? If such a "defensive" missle were to discharge accidentally, the airlines would have _really_ "shot themselves in the foot" as far as making the passengers feal safe!
-dave w
Dave Grayvis - 28 Jan 2005 03:50 GMT >>I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare.... >>I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -dave w I don't believe we are talking about anti missile missiles, more like, infrared jammers and chaff and the like.
Jerry Irvine - 28 Jan 2005 03:54 GMT > > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare.... > > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the > > anti missile systems in place.... > > I'd be less nervous about the hypothetical "terrorist attacks" A train accident/suicide in Glendale, CA had more death than any "terrorist incident" since 9-11-01.
Infinitely more than rocketry.
Jerry
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
raydunakin@aol.com - 28 Jan 2005 07:41 GMT > A train accident/suicide in Glendale, CA had more death than any > "terrorist inc ident" since 9-11-01. > > Infinitely more than rocketry. Yep. Any terrorist group with even the slightest amount of imagination could do the same thing. I'd bet money that right now some Al Qaeda scumbag is giving considering the possibilities. Maybe do 50 or 100 of them simultaneously all over the country for maximum disruption and publicity.
l
Alan Jones - 28 Jan 2005 17:29 GMT >> > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare.... >> > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Jerry It was impressive with one SUV taking out two trains. Sort or like killing two birds with one stone, with a stone that should not have been able to kill even one bird. They may have to rethink rail safety and security.
Alan
David Weinshenker - 28 Jan 2005 17:39 GMT > >> > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare.... > >> > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Alan There's a reason "like a train wreck" occupies the position it does in our metaphorical vernacular...
-dave w
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 18:04 GMT It was in "push" mode. Very bad to have passengers in the front car of a train in "push" mode.
-Fred Shecter
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 19:56 GMT http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-27-push-pull_x.htm
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 20:11 GMT http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-27-push-pull_x.htm
Dave Grayvis - 28 Jan 2005 20:30 GMT > It was in "push" mode. Very bad to have passengers in the front car of > a train in "push" mode. > > -Fred Shecter They just referred to that as the "coffin car" on the news.
Bob Kaplow - 28 Jan 2005 19:07 GMT > It was impressive with one SUV taking out two trains. Sort or like > killing two birds with one stone, with a stone that should not have > been able to kill even one bird. They may have to rethink rail safety > and security. Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs...
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and the security of all Americans.
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 19:27 GMT Don't you watch "24" on TV?
http://www.fox.com/24/
raydunakin@aol.com - 28 Jan 2005 20:12 GMT > Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs... Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the tracks without a traceable link to the driver. No need for suicide.
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 14:27 GMT >> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs... >Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the >tracks without a traceable link to the driver. No need for suicide. Just a little side-observation...
Sometimes, it's not difficult to see the link that the BATFE draws between us and terrorists. I mean - any agent monitoring this particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion. :-)
David Weinshenker - 29 Jan 2005 15:05 GMT > >> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs... > >Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters > ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion. :-) Hmmm... so our "duty on the home front in the war on terrorism" is not to anticipate potential vulnerabilities (in hopes that identifying them might enable them to be secured), but to sit in quiet fear and "try not to give them any ideas"?
-dave w
Jim Yanik - 29 Jan 2005 16:52 GMT >> >> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs... >> >Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > -dave w Also,BATFE can see what is proposed,maybe catch something they missed,and begin their own studies and counter plans. I suspect those with the greatest resources(US) has the edge and the lead.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
David Erbas-White - 29 Jan 2005 17:27 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > It would seem the solution to this one is simple... Just put a turret gunner up front on the train... <G>
David Erbas-White
David Weinshenker - 29 Jan 2005 17:36 GMT > >>>>>Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs... > >>>>Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > David Erbas-White Lot cheaper than lasers - especially since a stalled SUV is way too dumb to figure out that its heat-seeker is getting spoofed... you'd need a big enough laser to actually melt it out of the way fast enough to do the train any good. One of those electric-powered Gatling guns they have on helicopters might do the job a lot quicker, with far less power input... you could most likely operate _that_ from the diesel-electric power system. A big laser would need its own energy source. :)
-dave w
Dave Grayvis - 29 Jan 2005 17:45 GMT >> >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > David Erbas-White The turret seems unnecessary though, realistically, you would only need to clear the tracks directly ahead of you. How about a forward firing 105 mm smooth bore? Or maybe a single hellfire missile?
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 19:00 GMT >> It would seem the solution to this one is simple... Just put a turret >> gunner up front on the train... <G> >The turret seems unnecessary though, realistically, you would only need >to clear the tracks directly ahead of you. How about a forward firing >105 mm smooth bore? Or maybe a single hellfire missile? Why not go with a low-tech solution...? A 'leading' locomotive, not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving potentially-damaging things out of the way. :-)
Dave Grayvis - 29 Jan 2005 19:46 GMT >>>It would seem the solution to this one is simple... Just put a turret >>>gunner up front on the train... <G> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving > potentially-damaging things out of the way. :-) Actually, that is the simple solution, or let the engine pull the train, but where would the excitement be in that?
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 23:32 GMT >> not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple >> cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving >Actually, that is the simple solution, or let the engine pull the train, >but where would the excitement be in that? Excitement, my Aunt Fanny. :-P The best solutions are often the simplest ones... regardless of how 'sexy' they are.
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 21:23 GMT > Why not go with a low-tech solution...? A 'leading' locomotive, not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving potentially-damaging things out of the way. :-) Ahhhh, I got beat to the punch on this one!
Chuck
David Erbas-White - 29 Jan 2005 21:39 GMT >> Why not go with a low-tech solution...? A 'leading' locomotive, not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving potentially-damaging things out of the way. :-) >> > Ahhhh, I got beat to the punch on this one! > > Chuck Serves you right for beating me on Young Frankenstein! <G>
David Erbas-White
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 23:30 GMT >> Why not go with a low-tech solution...? A 'leading' locomotive, >> not carrying any passengers or cargo, equipped with a simple >> cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving >> potentially-damaging things out of the way. :-) > Ahhhh, I got beat to the punch on this one! Well... it takes some of us less time to hit on brilliant ideas than others. ;-)
Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:40 GMT > >> It would seem the solution to this one is simple... Just put a turret > >> gunner up front on the train... <G> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cow-catcher. It travels ahead of the 'main' train, shoving > potentially-damaging things out of the way. :-) Proven, simple, cheap, inert technology must be dismissed from the start as unsuitable for the "new securitarian state".
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Dave Grayvis - 30 Jan 2005 15:45 GMT >>>>It would seem the solution to this one is simple... Just put a turret >>>>gunner up front on the train... <G> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Proven, simple, cheap, inert technology must be dismissed from the start > as unsuitable for the "new securitarian state". What makes you say that?
Len Lekx - 31 Jan 2005 02:27 GMT >> Proven, simple, cheap, inert technology must be dismissed from the start >> as unsuitable for the "new securitarian state". >What makes you say that? It *does* seem to be the way society is heading in general. Even in the Armed Services, research is being done on 'stealth' clothing... outfits that use tiny TV cameras and screens to project an image of what's behind/beside/infront of the trooper, rendering him 'invisible'.
Tried-and-true camouflage techniques aren't good enough anymore. ;-)
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 20:44 GMT >> It would seem the solution to this one is simple... Just put a >> turret gunner up front on the train... <G> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > need to clear the tracks directly ahead of you. How about a forward > firing 105 mm smooth bore? Or maybe a single hellfire missile? I think the BATF would like the missile idea best, they've already been able to prove they're a danger to ground targets using our motors. ;-) Though the gatling would be good too, as massive as a locomotive is it wouldn't have the recoil problems of airborne units.
But for the traditionalists out there....cow-catchers!
Chuck
randyolb@charter.net - 29 Jan 2005 18:02 GMT > It would seem the solution to this one is simple... Just put a turret > gunner up front on the train... <G> I thought that would work for the airlines too.
Just a couple of turrets on a 747 would help and you wouldn't need all the expensive stuff that's on Air Force One. ; )
Randy
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 20:56 GMT >Just a couple of turrets on a 747 would help and you wouldn't need all the >expensive stuff that's on Air Force One. ; ) > >Randy And think of the nostalgia kick it could start! 747's made up to look like B-17's!! Could save alot of time at the airports too. Don't land to disembark, just open the bay doors and............
Chuck
raydunakin@aol.com - 29 Jan 2005 21:20 GMT > And think of the nostalgia kick it could start! 747's made up to look > like B-17's!! Could save alot of time at the airports too. Don't land to > disembark, just open the bay doors and............ LOL!!
u
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 18:57 GMT >Hmmm... so our "duty on the home front in the war on terrorism" is not >to anticipate potential vulnerabilities (in hopes that identifying them >might enable them to be secured), but to sit in quiet fear and "try not >to give them any ideas"? I didn't say THAT. But some sufficiently-paranoid bureaucrat can mistake our musings for actual ideas... or just use our banter to score political points at our expense.
I'm not suggesting that we shut up about it - I *am* suggesting that we shouldn't be surprised that others might find it a bit unsettling. :-)
Zathras of the Great Machine - 29 Jan 2005 21:19 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'm not suggesting that we shut up about it - I *am* suggesting that we shouldn't be surprised that others might find it a bit unsettling. :-) Been there and still doing that. I was sitting in a local pub remarking about how stupid all this fashionable paranoia is when any amatuer with $10 could go into a grocery store, then stop at a gas station on the way back home, to then have both all the parts needed for homebrew WMD's and change in their pocket. When challenged by another patron, figuring I was being an anal ventriloquist (talking out my a.s), I told him what could be created. He got this frightened "is Big Brother watching?!" look and told me to be quiet before someone reported me. The capper was the guy on the other side of him then popped up with some ideas I'd left out. The world has changed, it use to be that the only reason to take lab in school was to make some illegal explosives for the heck of it and because we shouldn't. The only time the school ever got evacuated was when some goodie goodie was doing what they should have and it went waaaaay wrong. ;-)
Chuck
raydunakin@aol.com - 29 Jan 2005 21:16 GMT > >> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs... > >Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters > ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion. :-) Well, I wasn't posting anything that terrorists couldn't have thought of themselves. Surely these guys pay attention to the news, and take notice of incidents such as the train derailment that could be reproduced on a wider scale. And I wouldn't go into some of the easier ways to derail trains, though even those are probably fairly obvious.
Len Lekx - 29 Jan 2005 23:27 GMT >> draws between us and terrorists. I mean - any agent monitoring this >> particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters >> ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion. :-) >Well, I wasn't posting anything that terrorists couldn't have thought >of themselves. Surely these guys pay attention to the news, and take True enough... but I was thinking more along the lines of the eager young Federal Agent. Looking to make a name for himself, he sees what we're talking about and over-reacts. He looks like a hero for pointing out this 'potential terrorist think-tank', and we get branded for aiding-and-abetting.
shockwaveriderz - 30 Jan 2005 02:43 GMT I think we should sell HPR rockets to the train people and let them use them to target and blow up the SUV's on the tracks....
now the really funny and sad thing is the BATFE will think the above could actually work....
shockie B)
>>> Next we'll have Al Qaeda suicide drivers buying up SUVs... >>Or just stealing them, thus allowing the drivers to abandon them on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters > ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion. :-) Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:36 GMT > Sometimes, it's not difficult to see the link that the BATFE > draws between us and terrorists. I mean - any agent monitoring this > particular discussion will see us talking about giving the monsters > ideas, and very quickly come to that conclusion. :-) Maybe so, but the Homeland Security department itself has been doing that IN PUBLIC (mass-media) for years now.
rmr is clearly an obscure culda-sack on the internet.
Jerry
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:33 GMT > >> > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate > >> > welfare.... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It was impressive with one small
> SUV taking out two trains. Sort or like > killing two birds with one stone, with a stone that should not have > been able to kill even one bird. They may have to rethink rail safety > and security. > > Alan Technically three trains since the parked one was damaged and disabled as well.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Jim Yanik - 28 Jan 2005 17:48 GMT >> I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate >> welfare.... I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -dave w I believe most of the anti-MANPADS defenses are ones that do not launch anything at the incoming missile,but attempt to blind or spoof them,using lasers or Xenon arc lamps. Northrop-Grumman has such a system.
The flare types of defenses are not being considered because they can start fires on the ground,and newer MANPADS ignore them.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
David Weinshenker - 28 Jan 2005 18:11 GMT > >> I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate > >> welfare.... I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > anything at the incoming missile,but attempt to blind or spoof them,using > lasers or Xenon arc lamps. Northrop-Grumman has such a system. Ah, that does sound rather less dangerous (and more likely to be compatible with the maintenance environment) than the flares and chaff-bombs I think I was imagining.
-dave w
> The flare types of defenses are not being considered because they can start > fires on the ground,and newer MANPADS ignore them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > at > kua.net David Erbas-White - 28 Jan 2005 18:33 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I worked on a laser-based system over twenty years ago for Loral. There was a great photo of the system in use where a missile was spoofed completely around a chopper and kept on going. The thing I find surprising is that twenty-plus years later it hasn't been 'improved' enough to be commercially cost-effective.
David Erbas-White
Jim Yanik - 29 Jan 2005 03:15 GMT >> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > David Erbas-White Define "commercially cost-effective".
One commercial jet crash due to a MANPADS and the economy is going to tank big time.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Jerry Irvine - 30 Jan 2005 15:32 GMT > I worked on a laser-based system over twenty years ago for Loral. There > was a great photo of the system in use where a missile was spoofed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > David Erbas-White The situation is 100% political and 0% science.
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
shreadvector - 28 Jan 2005 18:33 GMT http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/021205-O-9999G-003.jpg
Jerry Irvine - 28 Jan 2005 03:52 GMT > I do not believe in a nanny state..... maybe a little corporate welfare.... > I think FEDGOV should provide tax incentives to the airliners to put the > anti missile systems in place.... They locked the doors exactly as the Israelis have been telling them for YEARS.
THEY know the terrorism threat is dispersed and ALL the efforts of Homeland Security and "First Responders" are FEEL-GOOD measures and have no anti-terrorist benefits whatsoever.
Or I do.
Jerry
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6867680/ > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > Jerry
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
Alan Jones - 28 Jan 2005 06:34 GMT >> The money would be better spent getting the bad guys and not letting >it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the system? Not to mention additional price increases making up the >loss of revenue from those who can no longer afford to fly? Our congressmen! They fly on commercial airlines and they believe they are not expendable. Of course the taxpayers really pay their way.
Alan
Joe Pfeiffer - 26 Jan 2005 19:38 GMT > lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley > 11 billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > new laws that would prevent the airliners from being sued in this > case.... No, it's much more likely that their cost-benefit analysis showed that there's no reason to think anybody's going to successfully knock down an airliner with a missile any time soon.
 Signature Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
Zathras of the Great Machine - 27 Jan 2005 00:52 GMT >No, it's much more likely that their cost-benefit analysis showed that there's no reason to think anybody's going to successfully knock down an airliner with a missile any time soon. And to think all that effort by the B.A.T.F. went to waste. Makes you think that we can't trust our own government to know what it's doing.
Chuck
Jim Yanik - 27 Jan 2005 02:27 GMT >> lets see what percentage of the GDP or the current budget is a measley >> 11 billion dollars....I wonder how fast they will come up with >> airliner anti-missile countermeasures, if and when a few airliners get >> popped outta the skies with manpads... Northrop-Grumman already has one for sale.(check their web site) IIRC,an Israeli company has one,too.
>> they evidently have done a cost-benefit analysis that its cheaper to >> pay out insurance to 300 dead people on a regular basis then spend the >> 11 billion up front... And probably ignored the financial effects of planes not flying after a jet was shot at or downed.
> Or maybe the airlines will get congress to pass >> new laws that would prevent the airliners from being sued in this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > there's no reason to think anybody's going to successfully knock down > an airliner with a missile any time soon. Those MANPADS have small warheads;too small for a regular passenger jet. A successful hit (but no crash) still would have great financial impact. One might even manage to kill/wound some pax from fragments/engine debris penetrating the fuselage.(that already happened with an engine failure on a commercial flight some years ago)
I wonder about who did the study and who paid for it. (airline companies,who don't want to have to install them?)
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Christopher Biow - 27 Jan 2005 13:47 GMT >they evidently have done a cost-benefit analysis that its cheaper to pay out >insurance to 300 dead people on a regular basis then spend the 11 billion up >front... Or maybe the airlines will get congress to pass new laws that would >prevent the airliners from being sued in this case.... Umm, no. The study explicitly acknowledges that a successful attack would result in direct economic damage of more than $11 billion, with even greater intangible effects.
They determined that relative to a limited transportation-security budget ($4.4 billion annually), spending nearly half that (based on 20-year amortization of acquisition and maintenance costs) for this partially-effective defense system would not be a cost-effective allocation of resources. Put another way, there are more cost-effective ways to spend our finite security dollars. I'd much rather see the incremental security dollar going toward the threat of weapons of mass destruction than this one. Filling holes ensuring effective use in funding of the Nunn-Lugar initiative for conversion of ex-Soviet nuke technology would be much higher and better use of funds.
Given the terrorist's almost unlimited ability to choose methods of attack, you could probably spend the entire US GDP several times over on security measures that would individually have economic cost lower than the damage they are designed to prevent. In government, it's a matter of prioritization, not blue-sky justification assuming infinite funding resources.
>>> http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html >>> >>> oh well so much for that idea.... >> >> score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks. it is astounding to >> see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!! Alan Jones - 27 Jan 2005 03:05 GMT >> http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.25b.html >> >> oh well so much for that idea.... > >score one for the "reality-based lifestyle" folks. it is astounding to >see logic and economic sense anywhere near this administration!! The above in an independent assessment by the Rand Corp. It says nothing about the logic or economic sense of the current administration. The administration could still have the things installed, or nationalize the airline industry, or any other fool thing.
Jerry Irvine - 27 Jan 2005 03:14 GMT > The administration could still have the things > installed, or nationalize the airline industry, or any other fool > thing. Shhh
:)
 Signature Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8
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