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Model Forum / General / Rockets / April 2005[FFT]philosophical musings: self regulation
Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those that trumpet "self-regulation", as the be-all and end-all as far as the reason why we don't need any additional "outside" interference or regulation . Self-regulation being that we will all restrict ourselves from doing anything that against the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code. What do we as a "community" do to people in this hobby if they interpret the safety codes in a manner not consistent with the majority view OR willfully violate provisions of the Safety Code?. For example, the NAR Model Rocketry Safety Code specifically says the following: Motors. I will use only certified, commercially-made model rocket motors,...... The above passage is pretty straightforward as to what it says and means... Lets say for the purpose of this musing, you are NAR member and you live in a state that has adopted the various NFPA codes.... and you use uncertified, non-commercial motors..... On your own time.... Lets get this straight...you are a NAR member and live in a NFPA state and you use non-certified, non-commercial-made model rocket motors on your own.... Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a violation NAR Safety Code, what potential sanction(s) do we apply to this person? shockie B) > Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those that > trumpet "self-regulation", as the be-all and end-all as far as the reason > why we don't need any additional "outside" interference or regulation . Well, I haven't in all that time and more. We don't need any more regulation because we live in a free country and we use our own codes for manners of safety depending on the type of rocketry, biking, moutain climbing, racing or whatever we are doing. this is not regulation. government regulates. Bodies sanction. > Self-regulation being that we will all restrict ourselves from doing > anything that against the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code. No, only Model rockets are coded to the NAR model rocket safety code. > What do we as a "community" do to people in this hobby if they interpret the > safety codes in a manner not consistent with the majority view OR willfully > violate provisions of the Safety Code?. public flogging comes to mind. however, in the case of rocket wickery, we will see if she or he will drown in a pond of water tied up. If they drown , they didn't violate the safetry code. If they don't their guilty of code violation and get flogged. > For example, the NAR Model Rocketry Safety Code specifically says the > following: > > Motors. I will use only certified, commercially-made model rocket > motors,...... For model rocket activites. > The above passage is pretty straightforward as to what it says and means... Yep, Bunnies told you many times exactly what it means. > Lets say for the purpose of this musing, you are NAR member and you live in > a state that has adopted the various NFPA codes.... My muse is not PG-13 rated, lets leave her out of it ;-) > and you use uncertified, non-commercial motors..... On your own time.... > Lets get this straight...you are a NAR member and live in a NFPA state and > you use non-certified, non-commercial-made model rocket motors on your > own.... I'm not doing model rocketry, and NFPA is not authoritive over it. I'm not doing EX either. I'm doing armature rocketry. (pun intended) > Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a violation NAR > Safety Code, what potential sanction(s) do we apply to this person? Bunny has told you he is not violating the sagety code. I sure wish you had been flying during the late 80 and early 90s. You might have got it. > I sure wish you had been flying during the late 80 and early 90s. You might > have got it. Point.  SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those that >trumpet "self-regulation", as the be-all and end-all as far as the reason [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >shockie B) This has beeb discussed before. I see why you put FFT in the subject. Moronics crap like this needs flames. the only moronic crap I see is YOU Phil.... Instead on spewing forth some moronic crap of your own, why not point me to the thread where this has been discussed before....? But thats asking you to be civilized and you couldn't be civilized in this forum if it you tried... shockie B) >>Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those that >>trumpet "self-regulation", as the be-all and end-all as far as the reason [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I see why you put FFT in the subject. Moronics crap like this needs > flames. ok - I'll help you. Try this www.google.com click groups You are turning into the Iz of NAR. Always looking for something wrong. I'd say moron sums it up pretty well. >the only moronic crap I see is YOU Phil.... Instead on spewing forth some >moronic crap of your own, why not point me to the thread where this has been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> I see why you put FFT in the subject. Moronics crap like this needs >> flames. phil: so now you try and smear me by comparing me to Iz......I am not trying to find anything wrong about the NAR ....I was asking a philosophical question..and as usual since yuou can only throw accusations around , you just show what a lame person you are... so phil lets see if you can carry on an intellignet conversation with out you going into a.shole mode.. what would you do if you knew somebody had violated the safety code? would you: Do nothing,turn a blind eye, since you ain't the rocketry police? and what happens to our sel-professed self regulation when 100's of people see violations and do nothing? self regulation becomes meaningless... shockie B) 2. > ok - I'll help you. > Try this www.google.com click groups [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >>> I see why you put FFT in the subject. Moronics crap like this needs >>> flames. > what would you do if you knew somebody had violated the safety code? > > would you: > Do nothing,turn a blind eye, since you ain't the rocketry police? You see a person blow a stop light, and you do what ? do you chase after them ? Most people don't. You see a person lie on a business form at work that could risk the company a fine. Do you tell the boss, or tell the EPA ? You see a person running out of a bank with a mask on and run into a nearby hood. Do you call on a cell phone and tell them what hood you saw them go into ? Most people do. You are in a Cafe in a red state. A waco comes in and starts shooting people. Your wife is carrying loaded while packed and stacked. what do you have her do ? So, as in real life, I would say what one should do depends on the infraction. Most things in life are various shades of gray, not black and white. I learned this while working in law enforcement a long time ago. almax: We are not talking about all those other examples that have nothing to do with model rocketry. and your end result is: "I would say what one should do depends on the infraction" Ok how serious to you is it if a person or persons use uncertfied, non-commercial motors for their own private use?. On your scale of seriousness of infractions, how serious would this be to you personally? what would you do? I am asking a simple question looking for some guidance here shockie B) >> what would you do if you knew somebody had violated the safety code? >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > I learned this while working in law enforcement a long time ago. > Ok how serious to you is it if a person or persons use uncertfied, > non-commercial motors for their own private use?. Not at all serious. In fact fun. doing that is not model rocketry and no NAR code was violated. Bunny has told you this many times. > On your scale of seriousness of infractions, how serious would this be to > you personally? what would you do? Even if it was a NAR code infraction, Since the NAR is not a governing body, it's still not serious. You might want to tattle on them up to the NAR tribunal. But since the NAR tribunal says the above is not an infaction, then that's out of the picture. > I am asking a simple question looking for some guidance here And you've been told the answer by the grand pooba many times over the last 2 years, so I don't think your looking for guidance at all, sorry. al max so bunny has stated that a person who lives in a nfpa state can use non certfied commerical motors in their own personal use? Even when the applicable nfpa code says otherwise? Would not that person then be in violation of the nfpa codes in his state? So Bunny said that we can't violate the NAR safety Code but we can violate the NFPA codes of our individual states? Is that what he said ? I guess I'll email bunny and ask him this specific question.... shockie B) >> Ok how serious to you is it if a person or persons use uncertfied, >> non-commercial motors for their own private use?. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > al max > so bunny has stated that a person who lives in a nfpa state can use non > certfied commerical motors in their own personal use? Even when the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I guess I'll email bunny and ask him this specific question.... Be my guest. Shockie, the NFPA codes do not govern Amature rocketry , only model and HPR, remember ? Many have posted on this and you know that. Bunny has told you many times in your emails that no NAR code has been violated. He has nothing to say about other codes. you bounce between NAR codes then NFPA codes in your arguements. then is my last post, you've asked many times. In fact, the NAR had to change the wording on their membership cards you were so worried about it on the signature line. Were you worried about it last year cause you wanted to make your own motors and not get kicked out of the NAR ? or did you want a ruling so you could tattle on someone and get them kicked out ? bye for this thread. Is is a perfect example of one reason I asked this question: I want everybody to notice the use of ALmax here of the word "tattle" ; Others have and will use words like: rat, drop a dime, tell on,etc... And why do they use those words? they use them to intimate you into keeping your mouth shut..... Everybody wants to be liked by their peers..everybody wants to be "accepted" by their peers.... what happens in the rocket community when somebody raises up and says there's a problem? They trot out ,rat ,drop a dime, narc on you.... Thats why in 47 years not one person has ever been kicked out of the NAR for doing anything (other than falsiying some competition records) And I have always found it interesting that these people use terminology like that... its almost if they have some experience with people and those words.... In the most federal and state governemenst if you seew rongdoing and you don't report it, then you are as complacent as the person that is doing it... In the real word, if a person "blows the whistle" on bad behavior or violations of law, they have status and protection as a whistleblower....here in out rocket community, if you wanted to "clean it out and up" of the undesirables, you run up against peer pressure to keep your mouth shut, or even worse, you are labeled a rat or narc, or even worse you will be subject to threats physical violence ...... I hate to say this, but the rocket community from what I have seen and heard of it is seriously corrupt at its core...... So let me ask the rocket community this question: Do you have any problem with people smuggling into this country model rocket motors? Does anybody have a problem with that? See anything wrong with that? What about people who don't own a antique firearm and buy BP under that pretense so they can get ejection charge powder? Is that ok? what about people who sell and send motors through the USPS without the proper prmits? Is that ok with you? what about people who sell L1/L2 level motors to people with no L1/L2 certifcation ? Is this ok ? Evidently the rocket community has spoken, because all of the above has happened in the recent past and continue to happen and nobody does anything about it.... And then you wonder why the BATFe wants to regulate us? Thats because we can't phuking regulate ourselves.... and anybody that does, gets ridden out of town on a rail..... The good people in this community will be afraid to speak up....the bad will be the most vocal.... shockie B( >> so bunny has stated that a person who lives in a nfpa state can use non >> certfied commerical motors in their own personal use? Even when the [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > bye for this thread. > Is is a perfect example of one reason I asked this question: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wants to be "accepted" by their peers.... what happens in the rocket > community when somebody raises up and says there's a problem? Banned. Shunned. Decertified. Cert non-renewal. Membership non-renewal even beyond the 3 year "punishment" period. Jerry > They trot out > ,rat ,drop a dime, narc on you.... Thats why in 47 years not one person has > ever been kicked out of the NAR for doing anything (other than falsiying > some competition records) Simply false. > And I have always found it interesting that these > people use terminology like that... its almost if they have some experience [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So let me ask the rocket community this question: Do you have any problem > with people smuggling into this country model rocket motors? No. > Does anybody > have a problem with that? See anything wrong with that? > > What about people who don't own a antique firearm and buy BP under that > pretense so they can get ejection charge powder? Is that ok? Yes. Under the letter of the law too. > what about people who sell and send motors through the USPS without the > proper prmits? Is that ok with you? Okay with ROL and all those that tolerate ROL including USPS. > what about people who sell L1/L2 level motors to people with no L1/L2 > certifcation ? Is this ok ? To non-NAR/TRA members? Yes. > Evidently the rocket community has spoken, because all of the above has > happened in the recent past and continue to happen and nobody does anything > about it.... Can you say hypocracy for the examples that do not fall within actual legal process? > And then you wonder why the BATFe wants to regulate us? Thats because we > can't phuking regulate ourselves.... TRA demands ATF permits for EXEMPT goods. Is that "self regulation"? AT and its vendors (and later CTI, AMW, Ellis, Loki) require (illegally) ATF permits for exempt goods. That is not self regulation. That is suicide. Jerry > and anybody that does, gets ridden out > of town on a rail..... [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > > > bye for this thread. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> Is is a perfect example of one reason I asked this question: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Jerry Poor Jerry > Is is a perfect example of one reason I asked this question: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > problem with people smuggling into this country model rocket motors? > Does anybody have a problem with that? See anything wrong with that? I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Without further information I'm afraid I can't answer. If you're talking about carrying model rocket motors on an airplane, then yes, I have a problem with that. If you're talking about buying something at a hobby shop in Canada and bringing it across in your car, then (generically) no, I don't have a problem with that. > What about people who don't own a antique firearm and buy BP under > that pretense so they can get ejection charge powder? Is that ok? This is a case similar to prohibition -- and the battles relating to the second amendment still continue. I'd probably advocate this behavior, on the basis of making the law unenforcable and eventually repealed. > what about people who sell and send motors through the USPS without > the proper prmits? Is that ok with you? No, for a few reasons, but the top two are a) problems with perceived increased security needs since 9/11, and b) not wanting there to even be a chance of this being sent on an airliner, and having that airliner crash. Even if there is not connection whatsoever, the mere presence of model rocket motors seems to send the nervous Nellies into a tizzie. Being able to point to rules that prevent this helps to mollify the nervous Nellies. > what about people who sell L1/L2 level motors to people with no L1/L2 > certifcation ? Is this ok ? Actually, I think it's great, but for bizarre reasons. I'd like to see many more sales of motors, and this would allow that to occur. However, actually launching a motor outside of proper certification should remain 'illegal'. I'll give you a perfect example -- I recently got my level 1 and 2 certs, but prior to that I could only order 1 motor for my cert flight. If I'd had the ability to buy more motors, and was in the process of getting the cert, I could have saved myself the additional HazMat fee by ordering more motors at the time. Further, one of the motors I wanted to use is now out of stock, causing an additional problem. So the 'rule' hasn't done anything other than cost me more money in HazMat fees, plus I'm out of one of the reloads I wanted to take to NSL. > Evidently the rocket community has spoken, because all of the above > has happened in the recent past and continue to happen and nobody does > anything about it.... Well, I've given you my two cents, and hopefully in a calm, rational, flame-free manner. > And then you wonder why the BATFe wants to regulate us? Thats because > we can't phuking regulate ourselves.... and anybody that does, gets > ridden out of town on a rail..... No, they want to regulate us because they are a government bureaucracy out of control. If you can point to ACTUAL problems that have occurred due to lack of self-regulation of rocketry, I'm happy to hear it. But pointing to violations that may or may not be viable law in the first place does not point to 'real' problems, it may well point to problems with the regulation itself. > The good people in this community will be afraid to speak up....the > bad will be the most vocal.... Oh? I've spoken up, does that make me bad by your definition? David Erbas-White > shockie B( > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> >> bye for this thread. David; thanks for your measured reasonable response.... per your own example, bringing back a few undeclared motors from Canada is technically illegal importation of explosives.... according to fed law..... and in this stupid post 911 world you would probably end up on tv described as a noncombatant terrorist and promptly disappear.... see the fed law don't differentiate between 1 undeclared motor you got in Canada or 100.... when you say 1 is ok but 100 is not ok you are using situational ethics... see you don't get to decide what number is okay and what number is not okay.... its not gray at all, it is black and white.... shockie B) >> Is is a perfect example of one reason I asked this question: >> [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] >>> >>> bye for this thread. > David; thanks for your measured reasonable response.... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > decide what number is okay and what number is not okay.... its not > gray at all, it is black and white.... Sorry, I'm afraid I do (get to decide, I mean). I DO follow situational ethics. There is a big difference between 'smuggling' (your word, not mine) 1 motor across the border from Canada, and smuggling 100. There are lots of different factors involved, and my determination of the risk involved will assist me in my decision as to whether or not to apply 'situational ethics', as you describe it. I may well decide (actually, I wouldn't, but I'm speaking hypothetically here) that the risk to bring one motor across would be mitigated by my being able to 'prove' that it was for personal use, that I REALLY have rocketry as a hobby, or even that I was going to use it as research in my business. I may decide that the risk of prosecution for such an action would be worthwhile. I would also expect that 'smuggling' 100 of the motors across would be viewed far differently, that it would realistically appear (at the least) as avoiding import duties, and it would be very difficult to use 'personal use' as any kind of defense. My point is that while both are illegal, part of my determination will be what I judge to be the relative real risk. I'll give you another (perfect) example. A week ago Saturday, I violated California traffic laws in a blatant manner. I decided to park my car across an entire lane of traffic, intentionally, and did it despite the fact that my vehicle had absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was completely illegal for me to do so, and I have no 'legal' authority (such as being a law enforcement officer, etc.) to have done this. And, in fact, I did it for a couple of hours! There was such a scene caused that lots of people ended up calling the cops, and they arrived a short time later with lights and siren going full blast. As soon as they got there, the cops blocked my car completely so that there was absolutely no way I could escape. I couldn't have run if I had tried. Then, the police jumped out of their cars, ran over, and... and... and... and... asked what they could do to help. I had stopped my car and positioned it to prevent further injuries to some folks who had been involved in a horrible car accident, and was busy giving first aid. So --- where are your situational ethics now??? David Erbas-White Despite all of that, I had no qualms about invoking 'situational ethics' > David; thanks for your measured reasonable response.... > > per your own example, bringing back a few undeclared motors from Canada is > technically illegal importation of explosives.... according to fed law..... WHICH Fed law?? > and in this stupid post 911 world you would probably end up on tv described > as a noncombatant terrorist and promptly disappear.... see the fed law [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > shockie B) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > see you don't get to decide what number is okay and what number is not > okay.... its not gray at all, it is black and white.... > > shockie B) Sigh, Sounds like another lovely Zero-Tolerance policy............ > > see you don't get to decide what number is okay and what number is not > > okay.... its not gray at all, it is black and white.... > > > > shockie B) > Sigh, Sounds like another lovely Zero-Tolerance policy............ Who invented that whole "zero tolerence" trip? What were the circumstances of the meme's first emergence? -dave w > > > see you don't get to decide what number is okay and what number is not > > > okay.... its not gray at all, it is black and white.... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -dave w Schools? Some kid couldn't stand zero so they set up a tolerance for zero policy to go along with all the other PC policies? SignatureTweak Chicken Tolerant Shocked: > > what about people who sell L1/L2 level motors to people with no L1/L2 > > certifcation ? Is this ok ? > Actually, I think it's great, but for bizarre reasons. I'd like to see > many more sales of motors, and this would allow that to occur. Sounds like proposal fodder. I "wish" consumer certs were mere merit badges. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Is is a perfect example of one reason I asked this question: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ever been kicked out of the NAR for doing anything (other than falsiying > some competition records) Korey Kline? > And I have always found it interesting that these > people use terminology like that... its almost if they have some experience [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I hate to say this, but the rocket community from what I have seen and heard > of it is seriously corrupt at its core...... Very serious for toy rockets. Ever thought of it that way? As in, maybe plenty of people have some sense of proportion, and in the grand scheme of things toy rockets don't weigh too heavily (both literally and figuratively)? What bad behavior (in the real world) that a whistleblower might report compares to, say, launching a rocket with a modified delay element? Illegally dumping hazardous waste? Sexual harassment? Spitting in the water fountain, maybe? SignatureTweak >> ,rat ,drop a dime, narc on you.... Thats why in 47 years not one person has >> ever been kicked out of the NAR for doing anything (other than falsiying >> some competition records) > > Korey Kline? That's what I was going to say too. Dragonbreath. The first use of the Kline Valve! Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org People who exercise their embryonic freedom day after day, little by little, expand that freedom. People who do not will find that it withers until they are literally "being lived." They are acting out scripts written by parents, associates, and society. --Stephen R. Covey > >> ,rat ,drop a dime, narc on you.... Thats why in 47 years not one person > >> has [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's what I was going to say too. Dragonbreath. The first use of the Kline > Valve! Point. No good deed goes unpunished. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > Is is a perfect example of one reason I asked this question: > > I want everybody to notice the use of ALmax here of the word "tattle" ; > Others have and will use words like: rat, drop a dime, tell on,etc... And > why do they use those words? they use them to intimate you into keeping > your mouth shut... No, they use them because you have no sense of proportion. Calling the police is the correct response when you see someone committing murder. It's not the correct response when you see someone jaywalking, or doing any of the hundreds of other harmless, minor violations that people do on a daily basis. > Thats why in 47 years not one person has > ever been kicked out of the NAR for doing anything (other than falsiying > some competition records) You obviously do not even know what you're talking about. People _have_ been kicked out of NAR, for things like flying G motors before NAR dragged itself into the 20th century and finally decided to approve the use of G motors. > here in out rocket community, if you wanted > to "clean it out and up" o f the undesirables, you run up against peer > pressure to keep your mouth shut, or even worse, you are labeled a rat or > narc, or even worse you will be subject to threats physical violence So anyone who doesn't conform to your strict "letter of the law at all times" mentality is an "undesireable" who needs to be "cleaned out" of the hobby? Nice. > I hate to say this, but the rocket community from wh at I have seen and heard > of it is seriously corrupt at its core...... Anyone who feels that strongly about it really should find another hobby. Unfortunately you may have trouble finding a hobby that only allows perfect people to join. > So let me ask the rocket community this question: Do you have any problem > with people smuggling into this country model rocket motors? Does anybody > have a problem with that? See anything wrong with that? It's none of my business. > What about people who don't own a antique firearm and buy BP under that > pretense so they can get ejection charge powder? Is that ok? Yep, absolutely. The law is wrong. > what about people who sell and send motors through the USPS without the > proper prmits? Is that ok with you? Sign me up! > And then you wonder why the BATFe wants to regulate us? Thats because we > can't phuking regulate ourselves.. You're delusional. The ATF doesn't give a crap about our safety codes, whether we follow it or not. The ATF wants to "regulate" us because they don't want any of us mere citizens to have access to "scary-sounding stuff", and their overly-strict requirements act as a filter to prevent 99.9% of us from ever gaining such access. Those who do get through the filter are small enough in number to be easily managed. If the ATF really cared so much about our compliance with the safety codes, they would be regulating _launches_. They would have an agent at every launch checking every rocket to make sure no one drilled a delay or used BP that wasn't "properly" obtained. And they would have been doing so since the beginning of the hobby. t > you bounce between NAR codes then NFPA codes in your arguements. The NFPA codes need to be exemptions not regulations to KILL all future Shockies (Terry Dean). > or did you want a ruling so you could tattle on someone and get them kicked > out ? Yes. I wonder if I shold post his emails? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>you bounce between NAR codes then NFPA codes in your arguements. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I wonder if I shold post his emails? an a.shole like you would. > so bunny has stated that a person who lives in a nfpa state can use non > certfied commerical motors in their own personal use? Even when the > applicable nfpa code says otherwise? Would not that person then be in > violation of the nfpa codes in his state? That would depend on exactly what the "linking language" by which the state in question had associated the NFPA codes with its regulations. If the state has a regulation "no rocket launching allowed, except for model rockets according to the provisions of NFPA-1122", that's one thing - is that, specifically, what you mean by an "NFPA state"? -dave w > almax: We are not talking about all those other examples that have nothing > to do with model rocketry. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ok how serious to you is it if a person or persons use uncertfied, > non-commercial motors for their own private use?. Completely non-serious. > On your scale of seriousness of infractions, how serious would this be to > you personally? what would you do? I'd do nothing, since it's (A) not a serious problem and (B) none of my business. > I am asking a simple question looking for some guidance here Here's some guidance: Quit spending so much time worrying about what _others_ are doing, or might be doing. Unless someone is creating an immediate and serious hazard to life or property, what they do on their own is none of your business. n > Your wife is carrying loaded while packed and stacked. what do you have her > do ? I could answer :) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > so phil lets see if you can carry on an intellignet conversation with out > you going into a.shole mode.. We have seen. The answer is no. > self regulation becomes meaningless... It becameme meaningless the moment it was replaced by "hard regulation". Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >what would you do if you knew somebody had violated the safety code? Simple - they don't fly. However if I am RSO at an EX launch, they have to be qualified to fly. If it's a TRA lanuch, they have to be a TRA member to fly EX. At Indy launch, it doesn't matter if they have to be a membeber of TRA or NAR to be certified. End of story. > Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those that > trumpet "self-regulation", as the be-all and end-all as far as the reason [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > you use non-certified, non-commercial-made model rocket motors on your > own.... What's a "non-commercial model rocket motor"? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? As far as NAR membership issues, IIRC the sign-up form says that one agrees to conduct one's SPORT rocketry activities according to the applicable safety codes. Flying with "non-commercial" motors is amateur rocketry, not "sport" or "model" rocketry. Why do you feel that NAR or "the sport rocket community" ought to keep its members from doing any kind of rocketry outside the scope of NAR-approved activities? "Self-regulation of model rocketry" means that when we fly model rockets, we do so according to applicable safety codes. It does not mean that we consider ourselves banned from doing any other kind of rocketry besides "model rocketry". The model rocket safety code only provides specifications on how to fly _model rockets_... where in the MR code does it say "I will never fly any other kind of rocket _except_ a model rocket"? Last I saw, that _wasn't_ one of the provisions. -dave w david: I am not talking about Amateur rocketry.. I am talking about people smuggling in model rocket motors which are uncertfied BUT commercial in nature and using them on their own time.. shockie B) >> Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those >> that [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > -dave w So you mean if someone were use a non-certified motor (commercial in nature or otherwise) on their own time, (your words) at a private launch with their own waiver,(if applicable) that they should be booted from the NAR? No. There's an old saying that goes something like the more you stir $hit, the more it stinks. What do you hope to gain from this discussion? SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://home.alltel.net/jm44316 > david: I am not talking about Amateur rocketry.. I am talking about people > smuggling in model rocket motors which are uncertfied BUT commercial in > nature and using them on their own time.. > > shockie B) > So you mean if someone were use a non-certified motor (commercial in nature > or otherwise) on their own time, (your words) at a private launch with their > own waiver,(if applicable) that they should be booted from the NAR? No. > > There's an old saying that goes something like the more you stir $hit, the > more it stinks. What do you hope to gain from this discussion? I think Shockie is nostalgic for the days of the "who flew the G" witch-hunts. (Can that be what he _really_ has in mind when he refers to "self-regulation"?) I'm glad I missed that. (Some of the early Lucerne launches might have been neat - when HPR _was_ basically "non-certified commercial" motors because the whole "motor certification" trip, beyond what NAR may have had for MR-sized motors, hadn't really got started yet... and the line between "recognized commercial manufacturers" and amateurs making some extra motors to sell at launches had yet to be etched in stone.) -dave w > (Some of the early Lucerne launches might have > been neat - when HPR _was_ basically "non-certified commercial" motors [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -dave w There's an understatement. True freeform rocketry. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > So you mean if someone were use a non-certified motor (commercial in nature > or otherwise) on their own time, (your words) at a private launch with their > own waiver,(if applicable) that they should be booted from the NAR? No. > > There's an old saying that goes something like the more you stir $hit, the > more it stinks. What do you hope to gain from this discussion? I have asked him offline if he wanted to do something positive with all this energy. He said no. So I will go with stink as the goal. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> There's an old saying that goes something like the more you stir $hit, >> the >> more it stinks. What do you hope to gain from this discussion? > > I have asked him offline if he wanted to do something positive with all > this energy. He said no. So I will go with stink as the goal. It must be a blue moon out or something, because I agree. You're right, nothing but stink can come from this discussion. SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://home.alltel.net/jm44316 > It must be a blue moon out or something, because I agree. You're right, Nope, next blue moon 31-May-2007. Last blue moon, 31-Jul-2004. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org People who exercise their embryonic freedom day after day, little by little, expand that freedom. People who do not will find that it withers until they are literally "being lived." They are acting out scripts written by parents, associates, and society. --Stephen R. Covey > So you mean if someone were use a non-certified motor (commercial in nature > or otherwise) on their own time, (your words) at a private launch with their > own waiver,(if applicable) that they should be booted from the NAR? No. > > There's an old saying that goes something like the more you stir $hit, the > more it stinks. What do you hope to gain from this discussion? Ditto! Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 > Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a violation NAR > Safety Code, what potential sanction(s) do we apply to this person? Myself and two of my friends were removed from NAR. Times have changed. But not much. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a violation NAR >>Safety Code, what potential sanction(s) do we apply to this person? > > Myself and two of my friends were removed from NAR. Times have changed. > > But not much. jerry, you were booted for bouncing a check to the NAR. > >>Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a violation NAR > >>Safety Code, what potential sanction(s) do we apply to this person? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > jerry, you were booted for bouncing a check to the NAR. False. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a violation NAR >>>>Safety Code, what potential sanction(s) do we apply to this person? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > False. jerry, you did it twice. some people never learn. > > Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a violation NAR > > Safety Code, what potential sanction(s) do we apply to this person? > > Myself and two of my friends were removed from NAR. Times have changed. The NAR has changed, but human nature hasn't. There's always a few uptight individuals who spend their days worrying that someone somewhere might not be in strict conformance with some rule. > > > Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a > violation NAR [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > uptight individuals who spend their days worrying that someone > somewhere might not be in strict conformance with some rule. Here in California the DA in the Michael Jackson case was instrumental in writihg a law (specifically with Michael Jackson in mind) that he is now using to prosecute Michael Jackson. He is also using a law that allows in evidence of past (unproven/unreported/unproveable) claims of abuse. This means only facts are allowed in abuth the item he is charged with, but anything he is not charged with there are no rules of evidence, and it is allowed at trial. Including hearsay and speculation. No other state has such an improper evidence law. Point being some laws are TARGETED at SPECIFIC folks. Tripoli has SEVERAL such rules for example. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >Here in California the DA in the Michael Jackson case was instrumental >in writihg a law (specifically with Michael Jackson in mind) that he is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Tripoli has SEVERAL such rules for example. Jerry thinks TRA should have let him off because of the 'CA Glove Defense'. Hey Jerry where did you hide your glove? Is it with your motors? Is it where MJ likes to bury his? >>>>Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Tripoli has SEVERAL such rules for example. Tripoli has rules targeting Michael Jackson? >>>>>Is this person violating the NAR Safety Code? And IF this a >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Tripoli has rules targeting Michael Jackson? THe connection is that Jerry and MJ both live in Wonderland. NO. Wonderland was the Eddie Nash/John Holmes murder site. Neverland is where MJ lives. The name comes from Peter Pan (the book, not the peanut butter). I went to the night club Eddie Nash owned -once-. It was a complete pit and filled with scum-of-the-earth. The bands were also bad. I preferred Madame Wong's (Chinatown and West) or The Whisky A Go-Go. -Fred Shecter NAR 20117 This came up a year or two ago, and was subsequently discussed at an NAR board meeting, because of the ramifications of doing experimental and/or amateur rocketry. The upshot is that NAR requires you to do your 'sport' rocketry by the NAR safety rules -- with sport rocketry being defined as model, mid, and high-power rocketry (using commercial motors). If you are doing amateur or experimental rocketry, that is not considered 'sport' rocketry, and thus the NAR rules don't apply. David Erbas-White > This came up a year or two ago, and was subsequently discussed at an NAR > board meeting, because of the ramifications of doing experimental and/or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David Erbas-White BTW that is the interpretation I faIled toget applied at my NAR expulsion hearing. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >BTW that is the interpretation I faIled toget applied at my NAR >expulsion hearing. Poor Jerry. You've recently said that you are a member of NAR so you can stop whining now. >>This came up a year or two ago, and was subsequently discussed at an NAR >>board meeting, because of the ramifications of doing experimental and/or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > BTW that is the interpretation I faIled toget applied at my NAR > expulsion hearing. Poor jerry. whena person use non certified commercial motors is that ex or ar? I don't think so..ex or ar is non certified non commercial motors... shockie B) > This came up a year or two ago, and was subsequently discussed at an NAR > board meeting, because of the ramifications of doing experimental and/or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David Erbas-White > whena person use non certified commercial motors is that ex or ar? I don't > think so..ex or ar is non certified non commercial motors... Well, in your first message you said "Lets say [...] you use uncertified, non-commercial motors", but now you are referring to "non certified commercial motors"... you mean taking something like an industrial line-towing motor and using it to try to launch a rocket? Would you call it a Bad Thing if someone did that? (I'd call it "amateur rocketry" if one did it as a personal project and "commercial rocketry" if it was part of a business endeavor... either way, outside the scope of "Model Rocketry".) -dave w > whena person use non certified commercial motors is that ex or ar? I don't > think so..ex or ar is non certified non commercial motors... Wrong. > shockie B) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > > David Erbas-White SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >This came up a year or two ago, and was subsequently discussed at an NAR >board meeting, because of the ramifications of doing experimental and/or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >David Erbas-White One of the meeting where Terry was whining about the minutes being late? > >This came up a year or two ago, and was subsequently discussed at an NAR > >board meeting, because of the ramifications of doing experimental and/or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > One of the meeting where Terry was whining about the minutes being > late? The minutes are proscribed in the Corporate rules. When they are late it is a "bad thing". If Shockmeister brings it to your attention in a way he seems to be whining (fairly common), too bad so sad. That does not change the fact the minutes ARE required. Nor require you to post several messages to rmr saying "he whined". It is obvious. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> >This came up a year or two ago, and was subsequently discussed at an NAR >> >board meeting, because of the ramifications of doing experimental and/or [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Jerry Nothing stops him from whining just like nothing stops me from whining about him whining. 8-) As for late minutes, BFD. If he was that interested, he could go to the meeting. After reviewing these posts it appears that I have un-intentionally violated the Model Rocket Safety Code myself...... Rule # 3) Ignition System - I will launch my rockets with an electrical launch system and electrical motor igniters. My launch system will have a safety interlock in series with the launch switch, and will use a launch switch that returns to the "off" position when released. (I just had 50ft of electrical wire with alligator clips at each end..........The Dog chewed up my Vaughan Bro's Relay Launcher) 6) Launcher - I will launch my rocket from a launch rod, tower, or rail that is pointed to within 30 degrees of the vertical to ensure that the rocket flies nearly straight up, and I will use a blast deflector to prevent the motor's exhaust from hitting the ground. To prevent accidental eye injury, I will place launchers so that the end of the launch rod is above eye level or will cap the end of the rod when it is not in use. (I forgot to put a cap on the end of the launch rod and it was lower than my eye level) 11) Recovery Safety - I will not attempt to recover my rocket from power lines, tall trees, or other dangerous places. (I used a tractor to shake the sh*t out of a 65ft tree to get my baby back) I shall amend my ways........... > Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those that > trumpet "self-regulation", as the be-all and end-all as far as the reason [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > shockie B) > 3) Ignition System - I will launch my rockets with an electrical launch > system and electrical motor igniters. My launch system will have a safety [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (I just had 50ft of electrical wire with alligator clips at each > end..........The Dog chewed up my Vaughan Bro's Relay Launcher) If the battery end is removed from the power supply before you approach the pad, this is a "removable interconnect". > (I forgot to put a cap on the end of the launch rod and it was lower than my > eye level) Over the years, I've found it MUCH easier to raise the pad up to comply with this. Plus it puts the stuff I have to futz with at a reasonable level, instead of crawling on the ground. I really mis using my grandfathers old camera tripod: some ID<ten>T broke the pan head at NARAM-21, but it held even my tower so that the clips were at eye level. > 11) Recovery Safety - I will not attempt to recover my rocket from power > lines, tall trees, or other dangerous places. > > (I used a tractor to shake the sh*t out of a 65ft tree to get my baby back) It's not dangerous when you're not up in the tree. I paid to have a tree surgeon get my rocket out of a tall tree a decade back. Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org People who exercise their embryonic freedom day after day, little by little, expand that freedom. People who do not will find that it withers until they are literally "being lived." They are acting out scripts written by parents, associates, and society. --Stephen R. Covey > > 3) Ignition System - I will launch my rockets with an electrical launch > > system and electrical motor igniters. My launch system will have a safety [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Over the years, I've found it MUCH easier to raise the pad up to comply with > this. Plus it puts the stuff I have to futz with at a reasonable level, The Aerotech (ISP) launch pad proved that wrong. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >snip > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > camera tripod: some ID<ten>T broke the pan head at NARAM-21, but it held > even my tower so that the clips were at eye level. One of my friends uses a Meade 125 something? telly-O-scope for his stargazing... I've been eyeing off the tripod and mount it uses (He won't let me have it for some reason?) Has auto leveling legs, tracking and all!!! I gotta pick up one of those tricky 'Remove Before Flight' ribbons too.. >> 11) Recovery Safety - I will not attempt to recover my rocket from power >> lines, tall trees, or other dangerous places. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's not dangerous when you're not up in the tree. I paid to have a tree > surgeon get my rocket out of a tall tree a decade back. If the tree snapped and crashed down on the Tractor it could be kinda dangerous... :-) I think I already knew when I brought this question up that it would poopahhed to death, and it has been.... Its jsut as I suspected, the inmates have the run of the prison..... If anybody 25 years from now wonders what happened to that hobby of model rocketry, this thread says it all... everybody is allowed to interpret the safety code as they see fit and as it benefits them... so much for self regulation.... only 1 person thinks that importation of uncertfied commercial model rocket motors is potentially a safety code violation, and then it depends on which way the wind is blowing that day...... While I agree that the BATfe in some regards is an agency run amonk, theres now no doubt in my mind that chaos and anarchy rules in the rocket community. shockie B( > Over the past 3 years since I returned to rocketry I have heard those that > trumpet "self-regulation", as the be-all and end-all as far as the reason [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > shockie B) Chaos and anarchy rules the ONLINE rocket community. Or for that matter any online community. I have yet to see chaos and anarchy rule a launch. Club launch at that. The best way to support the rocket community is to actually fly rockets. Not to ponder endless specifics online. The sky is *not* falling. Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 > I think I already knew when I brought this question up that it would > poopahhed to death, and it has been.... [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> >> shockie B) >The best way to support the rocket community is to actually fly rockets. > Not to ponder endless specifics online. The sky is *not* falling. If you'd had enough Shockie treatments, you may think otherwise. 8-) > The best way to support the rocket community is to actually fly rockets. Truer words were never spoken. ; ) Randy http://vernarockets.com/ Shockie -- with all due respect, it works both ways. Just as my statements have given you a calibration on my thoughts and possible actions, I have to say that your statements here have given me a calibration on your thoughts and actions, that I find a bit more scary than you realize. I don't know you, and probably wouldn't recognize you at a launch, but I would probably go out of my way to avoid you if I knew you. Why? Because you seem to be searching for reasons to CREATE problems/difficulties, not searching for ways to make the hobby REALISTICALLY safer and open to a wider audience. I recognize and respect that you may well feel the same way about my statements, but that's good -- you're probably just as eager to avoid me at a launch, as I am to avoid you. Good luck... David Erbas-White > I think I already knew when I brought this question up that it would > poopahhed to death, and it has been.... [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> >> shockie B) > Shockie -- with all due respect, it works both ways. Just as my > statements have given you a calibration on my thoughts and possible [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > problems/difficulties, not searching for ways to make the hobby > REALISTICALLY safer and open to a wider audience. I said essentially that same thing to him in email moments ago. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >I said essentially that same thing to him in email moments ago. > >Jerry > > Yeah, but this time I said it first... <G> David Erbas-White > >I said essentially that same thing to him in email moments ago. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > David Erbas-White The truth is worth sayoing. And you say a lot of very good things first BTW. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >The truth is worth sayoing. And you say a lot of very good things first >BTW. > >Jerry Jerry - wipe your face. >>I said essentially that same thing to him in email moments ago. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >David Erbas-White You also said it better. > While I agree that the BATfe in some regards is an agency run amonk, theres > now no doubt in my mind that chaos and anarchy rules in the rocket > community. Okay. Now what are you going to DO about it? I did my bit 2 decades ago and while I feel I was highly successful (LMR is real, HPR is real), you have also seen the backwash. The people who oposed me then have been personally attacking me ever since and working full time to add "restrictions" to HPR, none of which are justified by any law, public safety, or field practice. YOU do something about THAT. Be useful. Then 20 years from now they will be attacking you. BUT there will be over 50,000 rocket people opposing the federal government overreach, not 3500 like TODAY. And the ONLY BANNED verndor supplying 20% !! of the assets to fight the good fight. Irony or tragedy. You choose. Either choice has a high price. Jerry "I've dealt with Jerry, and found him to be a decent guy to deal with." - Graham J. Platt "Live the life style. Employ existing exemptions." - Jerry Irvine "People who exercise their embryonic freedom day after day, little by little, expand that freedom. People who do not will find that it withers until they are literally "being lived." They are acting out scripts written by parents, associates, and society." - Stephen R. Covey SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> While I agree that the BATfe in some regards is an agency run amonk, theres >> now no doubt in my mind that chaos and anarchy rules in the rocket [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >YOU do something about THAT. Be useful. I've already told him that. Get an original idea. >Then 20 years from now they will be attacking you. BUT there will be >over 50,000 rocket people opposing the federal government overreach, not >3500 like TODAY. Poor Jerry >And the ONLY BANNED verndor supplying 20% !! of the assets to fight the >good fight. I don't think it's appropriate for you to keep shooting off your mouth about that. It attracts trolls and shows you to be the classless slob that you are. >Irony or tragedy. You choose. Either choice has a high price. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >society." >- Stephen R. Covey >I think I already knew when I brought this question up that it would >poopahhed to death, and it has been.... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >everybody is allowed to interpret the safety code as they see fit and as it >benefits them... so much for self regulation.... In my opinion, the minimal level of self-regulation that rocketry enjoys (the "anarchy" you mentioned below) seems to be more than sufficient. After all, "hobby rocketry" has been around for about 45 years or so, and there have been no deaths or serious injuries during that entire time to *anyone* following *any* of the various "safety codes" promulgated by any of the user organizations involved in the hobby of rocketry. There has been a grand total of *one* death of an employee of a manufacturer during that same time period. Sounds like a pretty damned safe hobby to me, and one which has absolutely *NO* need of any tighter regulation, because there is *NO* serious danger to *ANYONE* as a result of continuing to self-regulate in the same "anarchic" and "half-assed" way that we have been self-regulating for decades. If there is no hazard to mitigate, why invent new, stricter rules? >only 1 person thinks that importation of uncertfied commercial model rocket >motors is potentially a safety code violation, and then it depends on which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >now no doubt in my mind that chaos and anarchy rules in the rocket >community. While I have no idea if there are, in fact, abbots in charge of the BATFe ("run amonk" :-), I do know that there is no reason to tighten the regulatory noose around the neck of hobby rocketry. Rocketry's safe enough as currently practiced, and more regulation will not make it safer; more regulation will simply make it harder and harder to participate in this hobby, and lead to less safety. Less safety, you ask? Yep! Just imagine what former rocketeers will be doing *instead* of rocketry.... Adding regulations to rocketry will reduce demand for rocket launches, and will increase demand for other hobby activities, such as soccer matches. Statistically, the more people give up rocketry, and take up other, far more dangerous activities, such as soccer, the higher the *overall* injury rate. So, regulating rocketry has, as a "negative externality" (oooh -- scary economics words!) an increase in the number of children paralyzed by soccer-induced spinal injuries.... De-regulate rocketry! Do it for the chiiiilllldruuuun! - Rick "Why do you want to paralyze children, Shockie?" Dickinson SignatureI find it ironic that women are happy that their men shell out big bucks for Viagra, but yet when rigor mortis sets in they want no part of it. -- Daniel E. Macks, in rec.humor.oracle.d > >I think I already knew when I brought this question up that it would > &g |
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