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Model Forum / General / Rockets / August 2005Apollo: The Race Against Time
This is an email that was forwarded to me, originally from John Pursley. Looks like he's been working on restoring the REAL JSC Saturn-V. You might want to watch for this show tonight. === "Apollo: The Race Against Time" will be airing on the History Channel Saturday at 7:00pm and 11:00pm and on Sunday morning (?) at 8:00 a.m. about 25% of the show is devoted to the JSC Saturn. You might want to pass the word around to folks you know who might be interested in that kind of thing. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see it because I will be traveling (ironically) on business that has to do with the Saturn...and the hotel I will be staying at doesn't have the History Channel. They had a major accident out at JSC today (Thursday) with the rocket. They were moving the Service Module (about 11,000 lbs) and it broke loose from the crane and fell to the ground. Though it only fell about 4 feet, the damage is major. Fortunately, even though it was assigned to me for restoration work, I wasn't supposed to start working on it until Monday and I had nothing to do with the move and I wasn't onsite when it happened (in fact, they were in the process of moving it to a work stand in my work area). Well, it looks like I will have time to work on other parts of the rocket while NASA and the Smithsonian perform their investigation (which could take weeks). JP  SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Homeland Security Administration: The Gestapo of the 21st Century > This is an email that was forwarded to me, originally from John Pursley. > Looks like he's been working on restoring the REAL JSC Saturn-V. You might > want to watch for this show tonight. Cool -- thanks, Bob! SignatureReply to K3TD via arrl dot net Tad, K3TD TRA #4501 Thanks for the heads up, Bob. Will be sure to tune in. > They had a major accident o ut at JSC today (Thursday) with the rocket. They > were moving the Service Module (about 11,000 lbs) and it broke loose from > the crane and fell to the ground. Though it only fell about 4 feet, the > damage is major. Yikes! That sucks. g I caught the show, and it was well worth watching. It features the interviews with Gene Kranz, Buzz Aldrin, and Eugene Cernan. Personally, I found it quite informative and entertaining. It's quite remarkable to think that a behemoth such as the Saturn V could endure punishment of launching into space, but that father time and Mother nature could wreak such havoc upon it. Particularly fascinating, however, was how they dwell upon the fact that these machines were designed and built by HAND, not with the benefit of computer aided engineering and other such technology that is so prevalent in today's space program. > It's quite remarkable to think that a behemoth such as the > Saturn V could endure punishment of launching into space, but that > father time and Mother nature could wreak such havoc upon it. Mother Nature and Father Time raise mountain ranges and then grind them to dust. A Saturn V doesn't stand a chance against them. Mario > Particularly fascinating, however, was how they dwell upon the > fact that these machines were designed and built by HAND, not with the > benefit of computer aided engineering and other such technology that is > so prevalent in today's space program. I was struck by the hand work too, but that may be because we're used to items that are mass produced. Designing a custom robot to weld fenders on 150,000 Chevys doesn't scale down to building 15 disposable moon rockets. For a fun exercise, someone should figure out how much design time went into the B-2 bomber. With production cut to only 21 planes, I'll bet it's more hours than the entire fleet will ever spend in the air... >> Particularly fascinating, however, was how they dwell upon the >> fact that these machines were designed and built by HAND, not with the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >into the B-2 bomber. With production cut to only 21 planes, I'll bet >it's more hours than the entire fleet will ever spend in the air... The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would ever put such a treasure in harms way. >The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >ever put such a treasure in harms way. Huh? It's a firggin bomber. >>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>ever put such a treasure in harms way. > > Huh? It's a firggin bomber. Phil, Did you even GO to school? Or are you still in grade school? >>> The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>> ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Or are you still in grade school? I have to agree with Phil on this one. The B2 is a workhorse, the B2 is a bomber, the B2 is part of our national defense, it was designed that way. The 5-8 remaining B-17s are national treasures (mostly because our govnernment only saw them as scrap) Fifi is a national treasure......the B2s have a job to do. We'll get sentimental when they are retired for the B-8. Of course the CAF will have a really tough time keeping one B2 in the air if/when they are ever awarded one, for scrap prices. Chuck >>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Or are you still in grade school? Appaently not by your standards. So when a bomber is used to attack another country, it is in harms way. WOuldn't you expect another country that is being attacked by a B2 to try to fight back? You said they shouldn't be put in harms way. Gravity combined with the earth's surface will break one. Maybe they shouldn't even be flown. Who's a bone head? >>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Gravity combined with the earth's surface will break one. Maybe they > shouldn't even be flown. Who's a bone head? You are, bonehead. You can't even spell THAT correctly, let alone "firggin". Let alone "appaently". If you want your views taken seriously, learn how to express them correctly, you firggin moron. Gus Gus >You can't even spell THAT correctly, let alone "firggin". Let alone >"appaently". Spelling mistakes are forgivable... :-) And you still have to explain your stance - why you consider the B-2 "Stealth Bomber" a national treasure... > >You can't even spell THAT correctly, let alone "firggin". Let alone > >"appaently". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And you still have to explain your stance - why you consider the > B-2 "Stealth Bomber" a national treasure... At the cost of a single B-2 (something like several billion) I can almost understand it.....but its a plane, a current production plane. We can make more, honest. -Aaron >>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Gus Typos are left in to irritate anal retentive a.sholes. >>>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Typos are left in to irritate anal retentive a.sholes. If only that were the case. You are doing nothing but showcasing your own stupidity, bonehead. >> Typos are left in to irritate anal retentive a.sholes. > >If only that were the case. > >You are doing nothing but showcasing your own stupidity, bonehead. See it works. >>>Typos are left in to irritate anal retentive a.sholes. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > See it works. By the way, that should be two sentences. "See? It works." But on the plus side, you actually spelled all three words correctly. This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry being involved at all. Hummm.... -- David >>>>Typos are left in to irritate anal retentive a.sholes. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But on the plus side, you actually spelled all three words correctly. > This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry being > involved at all. Hummm.... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > But on the plus side, you actually spelled all three words correctly. Missed the Apollo TV program and all I got was this silly argument. ;-) SignatureTweak > This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry being > involved at all. Hummm.... > > -- David Phil/Jerry Pretty much interchangeable. > > This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry > > being [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Pretty much interchangeable. Interesting observation. Do you simply deny the CONTENT I bring to the floor? SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry >>>being [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Do you simply deny the CONTENT I bring to the floor? Quite right. Phil is pretty much content-less. >>>>This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry >>>>being [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Phil is pretty much content-less. While maybe not up to your expectations, I've still posted more content than you. Do you have any content to share? >>>This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry >>>being [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Do you simply deny the CONTENT I bring to the floor? Who cares what a felon with explosives convictions spews on the floor? > Do you simply deny the CONTENT I bring to the floor? Still not housebroken? Or do you have a saggy diaper that leaks? ;) >> This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry being >> involved at all. Hummm.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Pretty much interchangeable. Gus a.shole - pretty much interchangabe. > >> This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry being > >> involved at all. Hummm.... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Gus a.shole - pretty much interchangabe. If anyone knows what the Phil-word "interchangabe" means, please let Phil know. Apparently, his flash cards didn't cover that one. >> >> This thread degenerated into bickering and name-calling, without Jerry being >> >> involved at all. Hummm.... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Apparently, his flash cards didn't cover that one. HAAAAA! I did that just for you. There another spelling error I made in a post for you too. Hope u find it. It shuld make ur day. > HAAAAA! I did that just for you. There another spelling error I made > in a post for you too. Hope u find it. It shuld make ur day. You always make my day. I like making fun of the retarded. Gus >> HAAAAA! I did that just for you. There another spelling error I made >> in a post for you too. Hope u find it. It shuld make ur day. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Gus I'm sure it must be good stress relief after a hard day at the speling police academee. > I'm sure it must be good stress relief after a hard day at the speling > police academee. Yup. You are our "poster 'tard" Gus > >>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would > >>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > way. WOuldn't you expect another country that is being attacked by a > B2 to try to fight back? Hey, when I was in the Air Force, I was assigned to Air Defense Command. We were the guys who put the harm in the way of Russian bombers. Bill Sulllivan "Initiating the 'getting-the-hell-out-of-here' maneuver." >>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>ever put such a treasure in harms way. > >Huh? It's a firggin bomber. It is a strategic bomber, to replace the aging B-52's, etc. They cost about $2B each (probably a LOT more in todays dollars), hence the "national treasure". The B2 is not invulnerable, and it's intended use puts it at risk of loss. >>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"national treasure". The B2 is not invulnerable, and it's intended >use puts it at risk of loss. A "National treasure" and being very expensive aren't the same thing. >>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >A "National treasure" and being very expensive aren't the same thing. Yrue, but the B2 is a technological marvel of the cold war, and a source of US national pride. That national pride will be injured when we lose a few of them in combat. The B2 is a national asset worthy of protection, not just another sacrificial war machine. >>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > we lose a few of them in combat. The B2 is a national asset worthy of > protection, not just another sacrificial war machine. If We don't use them, there's no justification to maintaining them. Being the cold war marvel that it is, I find it difficult to believe that any of our current enemies would have the realistic chance of bringing a B2 down, let alone even detecting it. > If We don't use them, there's no justification to maintaining them. > Being the cold war marvel that it is, I find it difficult to believe > that any of our current enemies would have the realistic chance of > bringing a B2 down, let alone even detecting it. It's a stealth bomber! Maybe it drops stealth bombs! Maybe we HAVE used it and nobody knows it! ;-) > > If We don't use them, there's no justification to maintaining them. > > Being the cold war marvel that it is, I find it difficult to believe [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It's a stealth bomber! Maybe it drops stealth bombs! Maybe we HAVE > used it and nobody knows it! ;-) :) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > If We don't use them, there's no justification to maintaining them. Actually, that's kinda how battleships worked from 1908 to 1944. They were too valuable to risk in combat, but extremely valuable in their deterrent effect. The Tirpitz (Bismarck's twin sister) spent much of WWII sitting in a fiord, but probably tied up three times her equivalents in Royal Navy warships making sure the Tirpitz didn't make a run for the trade channels. As long as the B-2 poses a threat, real or perceived, it's tying up enemy resources, typically in the form of detection and countermeasures. I'm not saying they're worth more unused than used, but they're certainly more threatening before they're shot down than after :) Doug >> Yrue, but the B2 is a technological marvel of the cold war, and a >> source of US national pride. That national pride will be injured when >> we lose a few of them in combat. The B2 is a national asset worthy of >> protection, not just another sacrificial war machine. > >If We don't use them, there's no justification to maintaining them. That's your point, not mine. Of course Rumsfeld would say, "You go to war with what ever you have." >Being the cold war marvel that it is, I find it difficult to believe >that any of our current enemies would have the realistic chance of >bringing a B2 down, let alone even detecting it. And on that note, we must return to sport rocketry topics, and let the national treasure fend for itself. > >>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would > >>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > If We don't use them, there's no justification to maintaining them. You are cluless about what he is saying. You are cluless about strategic war issues. You are insensitive to military pride because you were never near it. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > You are cluless about what he is saying. Why do you say that? Be specific. > You are cluless about strategic war issues. Why do you say that? Be specific. > You are insensitive to military pride because you were never near it. I have never been a member of the Armed Forces, neither have you. What's your point? > >>>>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would > >>>>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I have never been a member of the Armed Forces, neither have you. > What's your point? You missed it again :) SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>>>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>>>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > You missed it again :) No, I got your point, you're a dipsh*t. Tell us something we don't know. > >>>>>>>>On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:54:33 GMT, Alan Jones > >>>>>>>><alanvj@nospam.mchsi.com> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Tell us something we don't know. "if you can trust a man's word, what good is it to put it on paper." Post your own copy of the 4-1-91 PT agreement you signed and were served with. My name is Jerry Irvine. Have balls. Or not. Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>>>>>>>>On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:54:33 GMT, Alan Jones >>>>>>>>>><alanvj@nospam.mchsi.com> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > "if you can trust a man's word, what good is it to put it on paper." What's wrong jerry? Are you unable to answer the above questions? > Post your own copy of the 4-1-91 PT agreement you signed and were served > with. First, why would I post such a thing? For starters, the date you mention is after the powertech partnership breakup, secondly, I was never served with such a document, and thirdly, you, jerry irvine, were fond guilty of civil fraud. Contracts and written agreements cannot be used to enforce a crime. Last time I checked, fraud was a crime. But hey, nothing is stopping you from posting your fraudulent document. > My name is Jerry Irvine. > > Have balls. Or not. The evidence is in. you Have no balls. > Jerry > > Post your own copy of the 4-1-91 PT agreement you signed and were served > > with. > > First, why would I post such a thing? Because it would affirm my position. > For starters, the date you > mention is after the powertech partnership breakup It was broken up by court order in circa 1994. > > My name is Jerry Irvine. > > > > Have balls. Or not. > > The evidence is in. you Have no balls. Now proven. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >>>Post your own copy of the 4-1-91 PT agreement you signed and were served >>>with. >> >>First, why would I post such a thing? > > Because it would affirm my position. Then why don't you post it? >> For starters, the date you >>mention is after the powertech partnership breakup jerry, you truncated My answer. Here it is again; "First, why would I post such a thing? For starters, the date you mention is after the powertech partnership breakup, secondly, I was never served with such a document, and thirdly, you, jerry irvine, were fond guilty of civil fraud. Contracts and written agreements cannot be used to enforce a crime. Last time I checked, fraud was a crime." > It was broken up by court order in circa 1994. No such court order exists now or ever. powertech ceased to exist in '91 when the remaining partners kicked you out and filed suite against you for fraud. >>>My name is Jerry Irvine. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Now proven. > No such court order exists now or ever. powertech ceased to exist in > '91 when the remaining partners kicked you out and filed suite against > you for fraud. Apparantly you are STILL unfamiliar with partnership law in CA. SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 > > No such court order exists now or ever. powertech ceased to exist in > > '91 when the remaining partners kic ked you out and filed suite against > > you for fraud. > > Apparantly you are STILL unfamiliar with partnership law in CA. And you, apparently, are still unfamiliar with basic law. Here's a refresher: 1. When you are convicted of fraud, that means you lost and you have to pay up. It does not mean that you get to spend decades retrying the case on usenet instead of paying off the judgement against you. 2. Writing "stolen motor" on someone's flight card does not make it evidence of theft. 3. Ignoring the regulatory policies of DOT, ATF, CSFM and other such agencies can result in big fines or other unpleasantness, even if you think their policies are wrong. Hope this helps! p >>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >we lose a few of them in combat. The B2 is a national asset worthy of >protection, not just another sacrificial war machine. Agreed but you know eventually one (or more) is gonna be lost. Only questions are how, when & where. > Agreed but you know eventually one (or more) is gonna be lost. Only > questions are how, when & where. Some "types" of aircraft have had zero losses. Why not B-2 too? Jerry SignatureJerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late) Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com Ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8 >> Agreed but you know eventually one (or more) is gonna be lost. Only >> questions are how, when & where. > >Some "types" of aircraft have had zero losses. Why not B-2 too? > >Jerry It's possible but I'm not betting on it. Phil >>>>>>The B-2 is a national treasure. It is hard to believe that they would >>>>>>ever put such a treasure in harms way. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Agreed but you know eventually one (or more) is gonna be lost. Only >questions are how, when & where. We can only hope that it's a bona fide combat loss, and not a stupid software error, mismanagement, or grand theft. I missed it! Anyone know if there's any scheduled re-broadcasts soon? SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://home.alltel.net/jm44316 >I caught the show, and it was well worth watching. It features the > interviews with Gene Kranz, Buzz Aldrin, and Eugene Cernan. Personally, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > benefit of computer aided engineering and other such technology that is > so prevalent in today's space program. > I missed it! Anyone know if there's any scheduled re-broadcasts soon? No, You missed it twice! >> I missed it! Anyone know if there's any scheduled re-broadcasts soon? > > No, You missed it twice! Three times. Once last night in prime time, again at midnight, then again early this morning. David Erbas-White As further follow-up, there will be a show (two hours) called "Failure is Not An Option II" at 9PM tonight -- a sequel to "Failure is Not An Option". David Erbas-White > As further follow-up, there will be a show (two hours) called "Failure > is Not An Option II" at 9PM tonight -- a sequel to "Failure is Not An > Option". > > David Erbas-White "Failure is Not An Option" is on right now. Oops, I failed to catch this show too! SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://home.alltel.net/jm44316 >> As further follow-up, there will be a show (two hours) called "Failure is >> Not An Option II" at 9PM tonight -- a sequel to "Failure is Not An [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Failure is Not An Option" is on right now. It will be on again at 8AM on Saturday Sept 3 > Oops, I failed to catch this show too! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > "Failure is Not An Option" is on right now. > This is an email that was forwarded to me, originally from John Pursley. > Looks like he's been working on restoring the REAL JSC Saturn-V. You might [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > JP Similar to a "legend" I had read, regarding the Eastern DC-3 in the National Air and Space Museum. Supposedly, as they were lifting it to its present place aloft, inside the museum, it broke loose, falling about 20' to the floor below. Surprisingly, this was supposedly no more tragic than a typical hard landing, for such an aircraft. Is there any truth to this anecdote? SignatureGreg Heilers Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 10.1 (2.6.10) ..... Two-hundred-thirty-nine pounds?! I'm a blimp! Why are all the good things so tasty? -- Homer Simpson Brush With Greatness |
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