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Model Forum / General / Rockets / October 2005Hot Glue on a Alpha
A friend of mine has a Cub Scout den that wants to make some model rockets. I recommended the Estes' bulk packs. We were discussing the difference between the Viking and Alpha packs. As I recall, the Alpha (not Alpha III) has balsa fins and I thought that might be a bit more difficult to build in the time allotted since the glue on the fins would need to dry. Tom came up with the idea of using a hot glue gun for the fins. Not sure I like the idea, hot glue has a tendency to not stick well in some situations. Anyone tried this? > A friend of mine has a Cub Scout den that wants to make some model > rockets. I recommended the Estes' bulk packs. We were discussing the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Anyone tried this? The back end of an Alpha may just get hot enough to re-melt the glue while you watch the fins drop off in flight or while recovering it. There are some aliphatic resin adhesives that will set in 30 minutes or less - a much better choice, I would think.  SignatureMike KD7PVT NAR #70953 - Sr/HPR Level-1 ~ BEMRC - NAR Section #627 NO Junk Email, please! Real email to: amphoto [at] blarg [dot] net. <WANTED: Experienced Kamikaze Pilot> I've seen it and it's a safety disaster. Rockets get HOT. Hot melt glue *MELTS* when it gets hot. Rocket falls apart in flight. Burning motors pinwheeling across the sky, out of the sky and (potentially) into childrens faces/eyes/mouths. Alphas and Vikings were OK when that was all you had to choose from. Now you have the better E2X model or any of the Quest models (Starhawk, Astra, Viper). The Alpha is too damned short to get enough wadding in and protect the recovery system for beginners. The Viking has cardboard fins and they bend easily and if you use the low profile configuaration are a stability problem. The Generic E2X is great. All the Quest models are great and have Kevlar shock cord anchors. And Quest motors have tons of tracking smoke AND the new Q2 igniters are fantastic. http://www.questaerospace.com/pages/products_edu.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/safety.pdf -Fred Shecter NAR 20117 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZshreadvector Hi Fred, I do like the Quest motors but wished they put out a bit more black smoke. Stuck three B6-4's in an old Estes Cobra reprised kit and it is better than Estes B6-4's with smoke, only would like more. I suspect there is a limit to the amount of chemicals you can put in the engines to make the smoke but I bought some bulk packs of the Quest engines. Hate the tiger tails and wished the Q2's would have come with them. Kurt Savegnago > I've seen it and it's a safety disaster. Rockets get HOT. Hot melt glue > *MELTS* when it gets hot. Rocket falls apart in flight. Burning motors [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > -Fred Shecter NAR 20117 > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZshreadvector >I've seen it and it's a safety disaster. Rockets get HOT. Hot melt glue >*MELTS* when it gets hot. Rocket falls apart in flight. Burning motors [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Only problem with the quest QuickKits for example is that they do not seem to fit the estes launch rod. But if you use a quest rod I guess that isn't an issue. > ... The Generic E2X is great. ... I agree completely with Fred about this. It works for kids of almost any age (k-12+). It's cheap. It's flexible. - It is simple enough to be built in a single session. (First timers are usually more interested in the first launch) - It can be decorated with stickers, crayons or markers. - For more advanced users, forget the plastic fin can. All of the pieces of a standard engine mount are there. Add some cheap sheets of balsa from the hobby store, and copies of the Alpha plans. - You can even supply several different fin templates, and let the kids creativity be their guide. Run them thru Rocksim first. - Put two kits together as a mongoose clone. Lots of possibilities, lots of fun. SignatureCurtis Have you tried the Quest Viper or Starhawk (or any of the other educator bulk packs?). You can't beat the ultra-simple and sturdy assembly and the Kevlar shock cord anchor. Signature-Fred Shecter remove zorch two places to reply Current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQgotopageZ1QQsassZshreadvectorQQsorecordsperpageZ25QQ sosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1 >> ... The Generic E2X is great. ... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Lots of possibilities, lots of fun. >Have you tried the Quest Viper or Starhawk (or any of the other educator >bulk packs?). Having purchased a "whole lotta Starhawks" from Fred, I can agree that the ease of construction, and the typical Quest design features make it an excellent rocket for large groups of very small kids... <g> My youngest daughter who was in second grade at the time put one together perfectly in about 30 minutes with just Titebond as an adhesive. FWIW.. tah -- Tod A. Hilty Hilty Information Systems Do not look in the direction of the flash... Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground... CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent of 85 Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply. Shall I assume that it was the 2005 version of the Starhawk, since she used only yellow glue? Those 2005 versions are perfectly engineered. And insanely cheap. And durable. i have never seen a beginner model survive so many flights. THAT is the way to get beginners hooked forever. If their first model falls apart after one or two flights, they regard model rockets as junky toys. If it survives many flights, they regard model rockets as "durable", "valuable", "fun", and worthy of respect. ;) http://www.questaerospace.com/pages/products_edu.htm The Astra is longer than the Alpha, so you can actually install wadding AND the parachute. -Fred Shecter >Shall I assume that it was the 2005 version of the Starhawk, since she >used only yellow glue? I think it was... Whatever it was you sent me. Excellent models. <snip> >The Astra is longer than the Alpha, so you can actually install wadding >AND the parachute. Absolutely correct. And they're an awsome flyer on Quest A6-4's... >-Fred Shecter tah -- Tod A. Hilty Hilty Information Systems Do not look in the direction of the flash... Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground... CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent of 85 Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply. > Have you tried the Quest Viper or Starhawk (or any of the other educator > bulk packs?). > > You can't beat the ultra-simple and sturdy assembly and the Kevlar shock > cord anchor. I haven't yet. I have mostly done Estes or scratch. I hope do do a group build in early spring, so it looks like it's time to expand my horizons. Thanks for the info. SignatureCurtis > I hope do do a group build... Curtis.... what exactly are you and your friends building? Sorry, couldn't resist. ; ) Randy www.vernarockets.com >A friend of mine has a Cub Scout den that wants to make some model >rockets. I recommended the Estes' bulk packs. We were discussing the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > DON'T DO IT!!! Hot glue is horrible for use on model rockets -- the heat from the engine will loosen the glue enough to cause the fins to separate -- and frankly it's not strong enough in the first place. David Erbas-White Apply a really thin film of white or yellow glue to the root edges of the fins, as well as the body tube of the rocket, where the fins will attach. Let dry 5-10 minutes, then apply a bit more glue to the roots of the fins. Press in place on the body tube for a few seconds, and they will stick there. Allow to dry completely, then apply glue fillets as usual. According to Vince <spammersareeunuchs@hahahah.com>: > Apply a really thin film of white or yellow glue to the root edges of the > fins, as well as the body tube of the rocket, where the fins will attach. > Let dry 5-10 minutes, then apply a bit more glue to the roots of the fins. > Press in place on the body tube for a few seconds, and they will stick > there. Allow to dry completely, then apply glue fillets as usual. The double-glue method works surprisingly well. It bonds immediately and quite stiffly (you often don't need to prop up the fins), but you have to wait for it to really harden. Alternatives: - Small amounts of CA glue to tack the fins on, and then fillet with white/yellow glue. CA may be a hazard for some Cubs. - Tack on with 5 minute epoxy (need to support the fins while it hardens), then fillet with white/yellow glue. The leader needs to mix tiny amounts. SignatureChris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. > Alternatives: > > - Small amounts of CA glue to tack the fins on, and then fillet with > white/yellow glue. CA may be a hazard for some Cubs. I'm visualizing a group of cub scouts, handling multiple bottles of CA glue, assisting each other trying to glue fins onto body tubes, most of them who have never built a rocket or handled CA before. It's not a pretty sight. But it is a little amusing, in a twisted sorta way. ;-) The result would be a cluster of cub scouts. -- David >> Alternatives: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > But it is a little amusing, in a twisted sorta way. ;-) Gives new meaning to the term "pack" of cub scouts. > Gives new meaning to the term "pack" of cub scouts. "Pack" sounds to organized. I envision it more of a "glob", sort of like that bowl of hard candy on your Grandmother's coffee table. It's the time that it takes to dry that is the problem. Most den's only meet for an hour of so. Guess the E2X kits are a better idea. A thin layer of titebond II will dry in well under 30 minutes. Still, I think the E2X kits are a better idea, and I have used them with cub scouts before. -- David > It's the time that it takes to dry that is the problem. Most den's > only meet for an hour of so. > > Guess the E2X kits are a better idea. > Tom came up with the idea of using a hot glue gun for the fins. Not > sure I like the idea, hot glue has a tendency to not stick well in some > situations. No! Hot glue won't do the job. If you use it you'll be launching confetti. Use regular white or yellow glue. Randy www.vernarockets.com > A friend of mine has a Cub Scout den that wants to make some model > rockets. I recommended the Estes' bulk packs. We were discussing the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Anyone tried this? Contrary to the nay-sayers, including Fred, I have used Hot Melt on rockets, and it does work. In certain applications. I use it almost exclusively for oddrocs from CD spools and such to my Borg cube to crayon banks and other plastic bottle conversions. In many cases it's the only thing that will stick to the blow-molded plastic parts. The heat time for hot melt is considerably longer than the burn time of a model rocket. What will happen is that the hot engine will continue to soften the glue after the model has landed. Remove the used motor immediately after recovery. For a rocket like the original Alpha, I wouldn't use it for the motor mount, because it would sieze during assembly, but it could be used to glue the fins to the body tube. But if I were doing this in a class, I'd use either CA, or titebond with double glue joints. I've burned plenty of fingers over 40 years of hot melt gluing, and while it really doesn't bother me much, it's not recommended for young kids. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org We need to ensure that actions by our government uphold the principles of a democratic society, accountable government and international law, and that all decisions are taken in a manner consistent with the Constitution. I agree. I've seen thousands of rockets with fins glued with hot glue, and I never seen a disaster in flight. Even after landing, all the rockets where in fine condition. However, as it is said, hot glue mean burning fingers. My solution when I have to organise a workshop on the field is to use a fin alignment guide. The students put the body tube and the fins in correct position. Then I walk to them to glue the fins with a drop or two of ca. Then they use fast white glue to make the fillets. All the rockets built with this method flied fine. > > A friend of mine has a Cub Scout den that wants to make some model > > rockets. I recommended the Estes' bulk packs. We were discussing the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > 40 years of hot melt gluing, and while it really doesn't bother me much, > it's not recommended for young kids. |
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