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Model Forum / General / Rockets / January 2006What should the ultimate rocket shop have?
I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central heating and air conditioning. What tools and shop layout should I have for the ultimate rocket shop? (I build large level 3 sized rockets. No kits.) I already have a floor drill press, dust collector, table saw (Delta Unisaw), large air compressor, CMS, scroll saw, and a wood shaper plus several workbenches. I am thinking about a metal lath to make parts for EX rockets. Brian Elfert >I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. >This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Brian Elfert > A magazine??? <G> David Erbas-White >>What tools and shop layout should I have for the ultimate rocket shop? (I >>build large level 3 sized rockets. No kits.) >A magazine??? <G> A large vacuum-pump and a curing oven for composite parts. A CNC cutter and a computer for cutting large parts. :-) >A magazine??? <G> Got one in the garage. Yes, I have an LEUP. The Fire Marshall said he preferred the magazine in the garage instead of in another building. Brian Elfert Heat!!! Preferably not something with open flame or heating element. Koen >I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. > This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Brian Elfert >Heat!!! Preferably not something with open flame or heating element. I already mentioned the shop will have central heating and air conditioning. Heating will probably be a 92% condensing gas furnace in a seperate room. What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? Brian Elfert <snip> > What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? Heat pump (reversed A/C)  Signature...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 L1 "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is" [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me] -------------------------------------------------------------- >What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? Heat pumps - of course you have to be somewhere where they can do some good if it is your only source of heat. >>What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? >Heat pumps - of course you have to be somewhere where they can do some >good if it is your only source of heat. Don't heat pumps generally have an electric heating element for when the heat pump is not effective? I don't know anyone here in Minnesota with a heat pump. The temps can stay below 32F for a month straight at times. Brian Elfert I have an Trane air-to-air heat pump in the house, and it works well. The furnace kicks in at about 25 degrees, because the it's no longer efficient to run it below those temps. I could see folks in MN using ground source heat pumps, but probably not air-to-air ones like mine. Either way, a heat pump would be big $$$. Electric, Propane, or pellets stove are your best bet. SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://geocities.com/jm44316 >>>What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Brian Elfert >Don't heat pumps generally have an electric heating element for when the >heat pump is not effective? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Brian Elfert Yes but if it just for a shop, you could disable the heating elements. Depending on the unit, you may be able to het a heat pump without the electric heating elements. In areas like Minnesota, a heat pump probably won't do much good in the winter. In the south, it might be all you need for a vast majority of the year. Phil Stein >>Heat pumps - of course you have to be somewhere where they can do some >>good if it is your only source of heat. >Don't heat pumps generally have an electric heating element for when the >heat pump is not effective? If you're using an air-sourced heat-pump, you're right. Ground-source heat pumps, OTOH, have the coils buried about 8-12 feet below ground level... where the temperature is pretty much constant year-round. >>What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? > > Heat pumps - of course you have to be somewhere where they can do some > good if it is your only source of heat. If your heat pump circulates underground water instead of using outside air, they can be very effective. Even in a climate like Chicago, if you dig down only 6 feet, you've got year round 55 degree temperatures. Far better than 90 degree outside air for cooling in the summer, and better than 0 degree air for heating in the winter. I just heard that a proposed local hospital is going to do just that for their heating and cooling. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined. -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788 >>Heat!!! Preferably not something with open flame or heating element. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Brian Elfert steam.(radiators) 8-) seriously,there are gas-fired units made expressly for shop heating that have isolated burners and external air intakes. (they do not use shop air for combustion) Also quartz radiant heating elements. There was an issue of Wood Magazine that went into this topic awhile back. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >seriously,there are gas-fired units made expressly for shop heating that >have isolated burners and external air intakes. >(they do not use shop air for combustion) The plan is to use a 92% efficiency furnace. This type of furnace has sealed combustion bringing in outside air through one pipe and exhausting through another. Brian Elfert > Heating will probably be a 92% condensing gas furnace in a seperate room. > What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? Radiant floor heat. Don't forget the big screen TV with DVD and satellite dish. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined. -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788 Sorry missed that, hot water baseboard/central forced air with furnace in separate location would fit the bill nicely, I just didn't read that part of your post and didn't want to encourage a stand alone type unit with heating element or open flame. >>Heat!!! Preferably not something with open flame or heating element. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Brian Elfert Heated fluid lines in the floor. It provides the most consistent, comfortable, QUIET, heat from ground level up, stays warm the easiest, and is one of the cheapest forms of heating. The manner and devices used for heating the fluid before it cycles through the flooring loops varies. The cons are it takes a whole lot more prior installation and needs a relatively sure and stable foundation. Also, fluid type matters. Water will freeze and bust a floor if heat is not kept cycling, but other fluids can be used. I have seen installations that cycle hot water lines from the hot water heater through the floor on a thermostat. The lines are heavy duty flexible tubing, and were embedded in an 6 to 8 inch thick cement floor with wire mesh and rebar for strength. The basement was so consistently warm that my friend built a "cold porch" underneath his existing porch with a doorway cut through the basement wall, so that the freezer wouldn't be fighting the heated floor. ~ Duane Phillips. >>Heat!!! Preferably not something with open flame or heating element. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Brian Elfert >Heated fluid lines in the floor. It provides the most consistent, >comfortable, QUIET, heat from ground level up, stays warm the easiest, and >is one of the cheapest forms of heating. The manner and devices used for >heating the fluid before it cycles through the flooring loops varies. How is it any less expensive to heat with? I've kinda been thinking about this sort of heat, but I have some concerns. I would still need to deal with ducts for air conditioning. I've been heavily involved with a Scout camp that uses this type of heat in two buildings with a wood boiler. One building was built first and it has an air handler with a heat exchanger. The first building works great. The second building has the tubing in the floor for radiant heat. It takes forever to heat up and doesn't stay warm with scouts going in and out all day long. They used to start the heat on Friday morning and let it go out Sunday, but now they have to run the boiler almost all the time. I don't want to leave the heat on high all the time so I don't have to wait forever for it to heat up. Brian Elfert >How is it any less expensive to heat with? I've kinda been thinking about >this sort of heat, but I have some concerns. My builder said radiant heat would be 2.5 X what "normal" heating costs were. Here in northern Illinois, you get forced air natural gas. Pluses: you get to use the duct work for AC, which you do need during the summer. Minuses: drafts, and if your HVAC guy can't do it right, balancing the system badly leaves you with either overheated or underheated rooms. Persons interested in following the Wabbit saga of workshop building are invited to visit: http://homepage.mac.com/barbarabundick/ Look for the slide labeled "The Basement" under "Preparing the Base" to see the future home of the Wabbit Wocket Worshop, all 14 x 28 of it. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org "A dark night in a city that knows how to keep its secrets, but high above the quiet streets on the twelfth floor of the Acme Building, one man is still trying to find the answers to life's persistent questions. Guy Noir, Private Eye." You have hit some of the other issues (cons). - All rooms should have some form of ventilation. Closed up rooms are not healthy. - It does take longer than other methods to get up to temp, but maintaining that temp is cheaper afterwards. It is NOT ideal in rooms that are direct access to major temp differences... in other words, basements good, entryway within 12 feet bad, unless you have an entryway supplemental heater. In the right application, it is great and saves $. I was merely responding to: >What form of heating doesn't have open flame or heating element? Radiant heat can be taken from many sources, (heat pumps, hot water lines, attic exchangers, etcetera), and does not necessarily need open flame or heating element. But in my opinion is NOT a whole house/building solution. I would not recommend it for a shop either. On your Scout building problem, due to high traffic, they should add a double entry door with a heat blower rated only for the entryway space. This would solve the heat-loss problem and still be cheaper than operational costs of central heating the whole place. The last problem is the wood boiler... I can see why you don't want to keep 'stoking the stove' when nobody is home. They need a different heater source that can throttle on need to keep warm but not constantly on. My 2 cents. I personally would use heated floors only in a basement that is at least 3 feet deep. ~ Duane Phillips. >>Heated fluid lines in the floor. It provides the most consistent, >>comfortable, QUIET, heat from ground level up, stays warm the easiest, and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Brian Elfert The server stack in my home office. Three machines, two UPS, two routers, and their associated power supplies generate plenty of heat. Just build yourself a server farm! Chuck W Sharc, NAR Section 613 www.flysharc.org Sharc, the section where two out of three certification flights always work just fine! > What tools and shop layout should I have for the ultimate rocket shop? (I > build large level 3 sized rockets. No kits.) Definitely a metal lathe - not sure if you'd get away with just a small hobby one though, but definitely a plus for fabbing your own custom bits. If you're planning on doing a fair bit of lathework, make sure you get an automatic cooling fluid pump system on the lathe - not that expensive, and it'll save hassle of having to apply fluid at a moment when you've probably just run out of available hands. I'd also suggest a good amount of shelving & storage space too, and whatever you do, don't forget to leave aside an area where you can store your fleet away from working areas. Plenty of power sockets, you'll find you always need one more than you have:-) Also, how about a PC of some description with Rocksim & a cad package on it? Someplace to sit & drink coffee is a good idea also - you can always 'park' visitors there while you get on with work :-) If you have room, how about a spraying booth & compressor too? G. SignatureGraham J. Platt graham (a) bowhunter (d) demon (d) co (d) uk TRA #10112 L3 UKRA #1264 L3 RSO My new garage is underway. The floor just got poured today!! YEEHAW! http://home.alltel.net/jm44316/1031051.JPG Facilities are just important as tools! I plan on investing in insulation everywhere. I recommend not skimping on the wiring, and having a few 220V outlets. A 100 amp service would be good. Good lighting is a must. Get good light fixtures, and ones that can handle cold weather. (if fluorescent) Epoxy floor paint is nice too. Having a phone and a beer fridge would be a bonus! Beyond that, some sort of ventilation system/spray booth would be a plus for painting. SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://geocities.com/jm44316 >I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. > This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Brian Elfert > Facilities are just important as tools! I plan on investing in insulation > everywhere. I recommend not skimping on the wiring, and having a few 220V > outlets. A 100 amp service would be good. Good lighting is a must. Get Good ideas. Can't ever have too much. Run multiple circuits. One of the things on my Round Tuit list is perimeter outlets on 2 seperate circuits: one always on (where I can plug in things like battery chargers and such), the other switched along with the lights for things I don't want to accidentally leave on (like the soldering iron or monokote iron). Plus dedicated outlets for all the big devices. My kitchen actually has 10 breakers to feed everything there. A big shop should be similar. > good light fixtures, and ones that can handle cold weather. (if fluorescent) Good point. I didn't recall where Brian lived, but flourescents don't liek the cold. Unless you're going to heat the shop 24x365 you need lights that will work when its cold. > Epoxy floor paint is nice too. Another good idea. I did this on the basement floor when I built the house. The only drawback is that water spills naturally wick into concrete now puddle up and leave slippery spots. I really want to do the same thing to the garage, but that involves moving EVERYTHING out, etchig the floor, then painting, then replacing 15 years worth of junk. MUCH easier to do before you fill it up, like I did with the basement. > Having a phone and a beer fridge would be a > bonus! Fridge near the TV! Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined. -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788 > Good point. I didn't recall where Brian lived, but flourescents don't liek > the cold. Unless you're going to heat the shop 24x365 you need lights that > will work when its cold. There are some fluorescent ballasts that are rated for cold weather. In my current garage, it never gets colder than 40 degrees, so fluorescents are fine. The key to getting good lights (if you want fluorescent) is to open them up before you buy and check and see if they have a nice, big, heavy ballast box in them. Those are the ones that work good. The cheap ones don't have a good ballast, so they buzz and are noisy, plus they don't work when it gets cold. SignatureJoe Michel NAR 82797 L2 http://geocities.com/jm44316 >There are some fluorescent ballasts that are rated for cold weather. In my >current garage, it never gets colder than 40 degrees, so fluorescents are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >don't have a good ballast, so they buzz and are noisy, plus they don't work >when it gets cold. Large size is no longer an indication of a good ballast. You want electronic ballasts instead of the old magnetic ones. Electronic ballasts are absolutely silent. They are also smaller than magnetic ballasts. Lowe's and Home Depot both sell flourescent fixtures with electronic ballasts. They cost about an extra $10 or so. Home Depot has an $8 shop light with electronic ballast. I spent $20 each to replace the ballasts in my existing lights. It would not have been much more to get new lights, but I saw no reason to junk existing fixtures. Brian Elfert >Good ideas. Can't ever have too much. Run multiple circuits. One of the >things on my Round Tuit list is perimeter outlets on 2 seperate circuits: >one always on (where I can plug in things like battery chargers and such), My electrical plan calls for everything surface mounted to make changes and repairs easy. There will be both 110v and 220v outlets mounted all along the walls along with dedicated circuits for things like the table saw that don't move. >Good point. I didn't recall where Brian lived, but flourescents don't liek >the cold. Unless you're going to heat the shop 24x365 you need lights that >will work when its cold. The shop will be heated at least minimally 24x7. Drastic changes in heat cause condensation that rusts cast iron. >> Epoxy floor paint is nice too. >Another good idea. I did this on the basement floor when I built the house. >The only drawback is that water spills naturally wick into concrete now >puddle up and leave slippery spots. I really want to do the same thing to My current basement shop has epoxy paint. I am not planning on it in the new shop as I plan on installing a wood floor to be easier on the feet. Brian Elfert > I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. > This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central > heating and air conditioning. I seriously wonder if that is big enough. A table saw alone, along with its buffer space for handling a 4x8 sheet of wood can take up about 400' by itself. > What tools and shop layout should I have for the ultimate rocket shop? (I > build large level 3 sized rockets. No kits.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > several workbenches. I am thinking about a metal lath to make parts for > EX rockets. I don't see a belt sander on the list. A big metal lathe will set you back some serious $$$, but would be a useful tool. Definitely a spray booth with exhaust, also for sanding to control the dust. LOTS of storage cabinets for tools and stuff. Seriously, hit your local library and find some books on shop layout and steal ideas from there. Dewey Decimal in the 684.xxx range. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined. -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788 >> I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. >> This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central >> heating and air conditioning. >I seriously wonder if that is big enough. A table saw alone, along with its >buffer space for handling a 4x8 sheet of wood can take up about 400' by >itself. I think the space will be big enough. Besides, the city won't let me go much over 900 sq feet due to lot coverage. Bigger also costs more. I'm already looking at a $20k cost. >I don't see a belt sander on the list. >A big metal lathe will set you back some serious $$$, but would be a useful >tool. I do have a 12" disc sander for making centering rings and bulkplates, but no belt sander. A belt sander should go on my shopping list. A metal lath would be nice, but lots of people recommend against mixing metalworking and woodworking. The sparks from metal can ignite saw dust and the cutting fluid can contaminate wood. >Definitely a spray booth with exhaust, also for sanding to control the dust. Everyone keeps mentioning that. I don't know if it will fit or not. Brian Elfert >>In article <11mcsp4pctgtfc8@corp.supernews.com>, Brian Elfert >><belfert@visi.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Brian Elfert Check out Wood Magazine articles on shop design.Every so often,they pick a type of space that a homeowner might convert to a woodworking shop,and redesign it,and invent all sorts of neat ideas for storage and there was a paint booth in one that was fairly compact. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >A metal lath would be nice, but lots of people recommend against mixing >metalworking and woodworking. The sparks from metal can ignite saw dust >and the cutting fluid can contaminate wood. I know some good metalworkers that have both metal working machines and woodworking machines in their shop. A little common sense is required to make it safe. Like don't hook up a grinder to the same dust collector as the wood machines! If you are getting sparks off a lathe you are doing something wrong! These guys also have torches and so far they have not burned the place down yet. However these guys tend to do a lot less woodwork than metal work and they maintain a very clean shop (ie no sawdust on the floor). If you do a lot more woodwork, I would suggest that you cover the metal lathe to keep it clean. The oil on the metal machines attracts dust which can be a problem because some wood contains acids that promotes rust. chuck You do not get sparks from a metal lathe. If your shop is full of fine wood dust, you are more likely to ignite it with a power switch on any power tool than you are with the metal cutting process. The main concern I worry about with my shop is the wood dust sticking to the lightly oiled surfaces on the lathe. It is a good idea to wipe it down often, or keep it covered. I actually cut wood on my metal lathe occasionally, and that usually results in a thorough cleaning. But it's not as bad as graphite. Oh - if you do choose to make EX hardware, you're going to want a bandsaw. I use a regular bandsaw with a metal blade, but if you have the room and the funds, you can get a bandsaw specifically for metal. -- David >>> I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. >>> This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Brian Elfert >A big metal lathe will set you back some serious $$$, but would be a useful >tool. My primary hobby is metalworking. I recommend hanging out in the metalworking newsgroup if you are seriously interested in learning about metalworking and to get leads on what to buy and where to look. You might even find someone local to help you out if they are also interested in rockets. FYI, I built estes kits in the 1960s as a kid. Lost most of them. Loved the X-Ray. >I don't see a belt sander on the list. I highly recommend one. They are great for shaping G10 fins. I use my 1 inch the most for general work. A 2 inch might be more appropiate for rocket work. I would also recommend a band saw. chuck Couple of things that would go in my ultimate rocket shop 1. Those retractable extension cords mounted at strategic locations above every work surface. 2. A deep sink 3. Beyond the benches, lots of shelving . 4. A bathroom - I hate the middle age sprint... >I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. > This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Brian Elfert > Couple of things that would go in my ultimate rocket shop I built myself a second full size work bench, and I'll never go back. Signature-strudle "I leave punk rock on for my cats so they'll get more hardcore while I'm out" "In terms of sheer coolness, few things beat rocketry." - Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft TRA# 10219 >I am considering building a 600 to 900 square foot shop in my backyard. > This will be for both rockets and woodworking. It will have central > heating and air conditioning. too small! |
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