Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
ModelsRailroadsRockets
Radio Controlled
Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater Models
ModelGeeks.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Model Forum / General / Rockets / November 2005



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Excellent post....

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
lightnpyro@yahoo.com - 20 Nov 2005 01:39 GMT
....from rec.pyrotechnics.....

When Worlds of Creation and Destruction Collide
By MALCOLM W. BROWNE
New York Times 5v99

His diary entry for one day in 1898 read: "Fired cannon, pop and
firecrackers all
day. in evening had five sky rockets, three Roman candles, one large
pinwheel
and a Japanese match which I made."

The words were not those of a vengeful delinquent planning a schoolyard

massacre; they were written by a 15-year-old Robert Hutchings Goddard,
whose
later inventions - liquid rocket fuel, multistage vehicles and rocket
gyrostabilizers,
among them - opened the way to space travel.

One wonders what would have befallen space science if Goddard and a
host of
youthful experimenters had been denied access to the very things
legislators
and others these days are seeking to ban. The fact is, many young
people have
been drawn to careers in science and engineering partly by spectacular
chemical
reactions, especially explosions.

Recent school killings have prompted calls for banning almost every
potential
weapon from flint knives to nuclear bombs. (Somehow the automobile is
never
included.) But to ban all dangerous substances would be a tall order.

There has never been any lack of explosive materials, and explosives
have
proliferated at a tremendous rate over the years. A dictionary of
explosives in
1900 contained 1,091 entries, whereas the current tally of
"satisfactory"
explosives (according to an expert at Los Alamos National Laboratory)
is about
20,000.

There are those who would favor outlawing all 20,000 of them if it
meant keeping
children safe. But it's worth remembering that at least some explosives
are vital
to modern civilization; explosives are needed for mining, building
roads, digging
foundations, welding pipelines and railroad tracks, actuating
automobile air bags,
sending rockets to Mars and simulating conditions deep within the
atmospheres
of giant planets, among countless other thmigs.

During my own childhood in the 1930's and 1940's, dangerous chemicals
including explosives and poisons were easy to come by, and yet I cannot

remember a single incident comparable to the disaster in Littleton,
Colo., and
other recent killings.

Not that kids didn't experiment and play dangerous tricks.

Firearms and explosives (including fireworks) invite mischief, but in
the past it
was usually of a fairly harmless kind. Farm children of a more relaxed
generation
than the present one used to annoy dairymen by detonating sticks of
dynamite
under empty 20-gallon milk cans, sending the cans sailing into the sky.
College
students delighted in flushing lighted firecrackers down dormitory
toilets, causing
fountains to erupt from toilets on lower floors. Mild but startling
explosions
caused by ammonia-moistened iodine crystals scattered around lab
benches
enlivened many a chemistry class.

Recreational explosions are not necessarily dangerous. Since 1912, the
Conestoga Company of Bethlehem, Pa., has been making and selling
acetylene
cannons that delight children with satisfying bangs free of any risk of
injury.
But fireworks containing explosive or propellant charges are not
harmless; every
year children lose fingers or eyes by holding lighted firecrackers or
rockets.
Moreover, fireworks can be put to criminal purposes. Most of the pipe
bombs that
have figured in recent terror incidents have been filled with aluminum
powder
and oxidizers extracted from ordinary firecrackers.

Naturally, people are eager to prevent massacres. The response has been
an
effort to prevent the trafficking in explosives and guns, and to
somehow
reprogram children with violent proclivities.

Snuffing out the fire of genius for fear of a few psychopaths.
Fireworks are banned (or limited to relatively innocuous pyrotechnic
products like
sparklers) in 16 states, and each year sees new legislation to prevent
substances like ammonium nitrate fertilizer from falling into felonious
hands. The
sale of old-fashioned black powder, the propellant needed for firing
antique
weapons, has been sharply curtailed because it has been used in
homemade
bombs.

As the trend continues, government agencies have also constrained the
sale of
chemicals so tightly that it is difficult or impossible for most young
students to
buy them.

Until 1957, when it moved to New Jersey to provide chemicals and
apparatus
exclusively to manufacturers, the Ace Scientific Supply Company on  11h
Street,
Manhattan, used to count many neighborhood high school students among
its
customers. A thicket of regulations eventually blocked such sales, but
the com-
pany's president, Robert L. Lowenstein, remembered his student
customers
fondly.

"Many of those young customers made important contributions to science
and
are now research directors," Mr. Lowenstein said. "I wish something
could be
done to make chemicals and apparatus more available to students, but I
can't
see anyway."

Similar regrets are often expressed by older teachers.

Dr. David Weitzman, a professor of biochemistry at the University of
Bath,
England, wrote in the New Scientist nearly two decades ago that
although he
had accepted the chairmanship of his university's safety panel, the
reduction of
laboratory risks had had its down side.

"In the laboratories, we forbid this, don't allow that, and prevent the
other ... and
we're all safer and less at risk of harm and hazard. Most commendable,"
he
wrote. "But have we, at the same time, removed some of the fun and
excitement
of laboratory life, the thrill of experimenting with the unknown?"

Dr. Weitzman described some of the risky experiments and procedures
once
common in student laboratories, including a very hazardous method for
cleaning
flasks by filling them with an explosive mixture of nitric acid and
alcohol.

"These encounters conveyed a sense of intimacy with one's chemical
materials,"
he wrote. "One saw reagents and reactions at their most angry and
violent and,
having done so, one learnt to tame them and discipline them to do one's
own
bidding."

He concluded that "perhaps just a little bit of danger might bring a
lot more fun
and lead to more insight and understanding."

Banning several thousand chemicals as well as timers, pipes, epoxy glue
and
other items that can be combined as bombs would be one approach to
denying
bombs to potential criminals. Another would be the reprogramming of
violence-prone people to eliminate aggressive impulses; it might be
done with
psychotherapy, chemical castration or brain surgery.

By selective breeding or gene manipulation, traits associated with
aggressive
behavior and the creation of sociopaths might be reduced throughout the
world,
spawning the most well-behaved human race the world has ever seen. A
similar
result has been achieved in Siberia, where fur breeders have invented a
com-
pletely docile breed of silver fox -one that licks its keepers' faces
while being
prepared for slaughter.

But must we really squelch all the things that can contribute to
anti-social
behavior to protect ourselves from a handful of sociopaths?

Could an aggression-free race produce a Jefferson or Beethoven or
Einstein? As
we race to eliminate aggressors and their weapons, should we not take
care to
avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water?
tai fu - 20 Nov 2005 02:51 GMT
It is not the intention of those in authority to insure that people are
getting smarter. In fact what they are trying to do is turn every citizens
into mindless idiots. They do not like the idea that some kid can experiment
with dangerous stuff and become a great scientist. The reason Pol pot killed
3 million of his citizen is because he wanted all the smart people
eliminated and everyone else to work in labor camps. I think that is what
our government want to do. They do not want people to become scientists, but
rather they want people to become subjects. They did not ban chemicals and
stuff to prevent violence, they did it because they didn't want any chance
of resistence, and also make sure people do what the government says.

You can be sure things will get worse before they get better...
lunarlosREMOVE2EMAIL@juno.com - 21 Nov 2005 21:30 GMT
Mr. Fu,

Interesting posting.  In revolutions, it's the 'intelligencia' that
gets executed first.
Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, and all the monsters of humanity get to the
top, and eliminate anyone who could cause trouble.  Yes, you are
correct.

Status Quo ... yes, those in power do what they can to attain then stay
in power.

I do feel that the 'dumbing down' of America (not living in Taiwan) is
a multi-facetted attack. It would be easy to say that the 'MAN' or the
'Government' is dumbing down the U.S. population, but its not that
simple.

The main reason for school children graduating high school and college
today with MUCH weaker skill sets then previous generations is our
present pop-culture.  Tai, in Asia, education is valued more than in
the U.S.  I can speak of Japan as I am very familiar with it and its
culture.  As a rule, we here in the U.S. make fun of people with IQs of
140+.  Geeks, nerds, spas are the monickers assigned to people who are
born gifted and/or work hard to learn.  If a college degree were viewed
with the same excitement as Terrell Owens catching a nude 'desperate
housewife' in his arms, the colleges would explode in population.  Just
think, a woman goes to Cal Tech and majors is low temperature physics.
She graduates Cum Laude.  Now who do you think is going to get more
attention in this world: Paris Hilton who spreads her pantiless legs
for the cameras or our graduate student ...

Now the next major factor to the dumbing down of U.S. Citizens is the
National Education Association.  Here you have administrators,
principles, and teachers who are Far Far Far more concerned about
holidays, bonuses, job security, and getting the 'RIGHT' person elected
in Washington, then they are in educating the public.  Then when they
finally get around to educating the students, it's from a leftist
agenda that is almost certain to fail in REAL life.

The last thing would be drug and alcohol abuse.  This ruins people
lives and dreams.  This can also be used as a cultural weapon.  One way
of controlling people is by placing a liquor store every other block in
their 'hoods'.  Another would be giving the native people 'fire water'
to keep them drunk on their reservations.  Another way is to control
people with opium as was done in China by the British.

So in closing, I don't think its one entity that leads a society into a
morass, but attacks on that society by different parts of that
society's anti-culture.

Should an eight year old be playing with explosives ... NO!  Should an
eight year old who has the mental aptitude to understand and learn, be
formerly schooled in the science of explosions, YES.
Doug Sams - 21 Nov 2005 21:40 GMT
> it's the 'intelligencia'

<smile>  

Lunar,

You name didn't used to be Jonathon Dunbar, did it?

Doug
hiltyt@weinerboy.org - 21 Nov 2005 22:03 GMT
>> it's the 'intelligencia'
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>You name didn't used to be Jonathon Dunbar, did it?

GAAAAAA!!!

RUN AWAY!! RUN AWAY!!

<g>

tah

--

Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems

Do not look in the direction of the flash...
Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground...

CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent
of 85 Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight

Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply.
Greg Heilers - 21 Nov 2005 22:27 GMT
>> it's the 'intelligencia'
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Doug

"John Dunbar"?   The Kevin Costner character from one of the most boring
movies ever made?.....

Signature

Greg Heilers
Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 10.1 (2.6.10)
   .....

As far as anyone knows we're a nice, normal family.

 -- Homer Simpson
    There's No Disgrace Like Home

hiltyt@weinerboy.org - 21 Nov 2005 22:59 GMT
>>> it's the 'intelligencia'
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>"John Dunbar"?   The Kevin Costner character from one of the most boring
>movies ever made?.....

Oh god...

And awwwwaaaaayyy we go!

<g>

tah

--

Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems

Do not look in the direction of the flash...
Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground...

CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent
of 85 Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight

Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply.
randyolb@charter.net - 21 Nov 2005 23:37 GMT
> Oh god...
> And awwwwaaaaayyy we go!

Uh oh! Tod's gone from channeling Paul Lar vae to jackie Gleason. Rod
Serling can't be far behind.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com
hiltyt@weinerboy.org - 21 Nov 2005 23:50 GMT
>> Oh god...
>> And awwwwaaaaayyy we go!
>
>Uh oh! Tod's gone from channeling Paul Lar vae to jackie Gleason. Rod
>Serling can't be far behind.

It may be said with a degree of assurance that not everything that
meets the eye is as it appears.

Huh?  What?  Where am I?

<g>

tah

--

Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems

Do not look in the direction of the flash...
Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground...

CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent
of 85 Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight

Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply.
hiltyt@weinerboy.org - 22 Nov 2005 00:05 GMT
>> Oh god...
>> And awwwwaaaaayyy we go!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Randy
>www.vernarockets.com

"The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs, and
explosions, and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts,
ideas, predjudices, to be found only in the minds of men. For the
record, predjudices can kill and suspicion can destroy. A thoughtless,
freightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all it's own for the
children yet unborn. And the pity of it is, is that these things can
not be confined to the Twilight Zone."

Ah, crap!  Make it stop.. MAKE IT STOP!

<vbg>

Tod "Gonna try Mel Torme" Hilty

--

Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems

Do not look in the direction of the flash...
Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground...

CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent
of 85 Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight

Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply.
randyolb@charter.net - 22 Nov 2005 01:41 GMT
> Ah, crap!  Make it stop.. MAKE IT STOP!

(With David Lee Roth fading as he sings California Girls in the background)

For you, the viewer, this is the end of the video.... but for them, it's
only, the beginning..........

(Hey! Hey! Girls! Wish they allllll could be California girls......)

Randy
www.vernarockets.com
lunarlosREMOVE2EMAIL@juno.com - 22 Nov 2005 20:24 GMT
Nope, but I wish as I would be worth a hell of alot more money if I
was! :)
tai fu - 22 Nov 2005 02:44 GMT
In Taiwan chemical shops (and glassware) are everywhere, often times its
just a matter of handing over the cash and walking out with the stuff. And
some dangerous ones too (like Iodine, Pot. Permaginate, and things like
that... stuff you can get into alot of trouble for even thinking about
having in the USA)
Josephfromri@yahoo.com - 25 Nov 2005 15:22 GMT
>....from rec.pyrotechnics.....
>
[quoted text clipped - 205 lines]
>care to
>avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water?
Sir: Why don't you take your facist filth, and post it to another news
group?
Mark Hamilton - 27 Nov 2005 16:31 GMT
>>....from rec.pyrotechnics.....
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>pinwheel
>>and a Japanese match which I made."
<snip>
> Sir: Why don't you take your facist filth, and post it to another news
> group?

Actually I thought it was a good article up until the last four
paragraphs, and it may be that those were simply an example of reductio
ad absurdum (if I remember my years-ago logic class correctly.)

And anyway, if you were so opposed to it why did you quote the entire
article for a one line response?

Mark E. Hamilton
NAR #48641-SR
ARSA #418
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.