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Model Forum / General / Rockets / January 2006



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AP in VBIEDs

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Scott - 31 Dec 2005 22:24 GMT
It's been a bit since I've dropped a post around here, so I thought I
would end the year with a "bang".  A DHS bulletin that crossed my desk
recently had something on it that those working the political side of
rocketry might be interested in.  It is unclass/FOUO, so I can only
give a vague and general overview of the info to a public forum.  Some
of the Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Devices (VBIED) being used
over in Iraq are being enhanced with Ammonium Perchlorate (AP).
Basically, they are using artillery projectiles for the HE.  To make a
better bomb, the villians are packing the cargo areas around these
explosives with loose AP (hundreds of pounds of it), most likely
salvaged from other large missiles that CNN claims didn't exist in Iraq
(ooh, did I say too much?).  The resulting combination gives the
simultaneous detonation of numerous artillery rounds accompanied by the
massive fireball of the AP powder.

The fact that they are finding AP used in this manner over there may be
one of the reasons why we are seeing the push from the BATFE(iou) to
regulate AP in the US.  As we all know, reservation and common sense
has never been a defining trait of such government agencies, especially
those with both regulatory and police powers under the same roof.

Happy New Year (from an undisclosed location),
Scott
Bob Kaplow - 01 Jan 2006 00:52 GMT
> The fact that they are finding AP used in this manner over there may be
> one of the reasons why we are seeing the push from the BATFE(iou) to
> regulate AP in the US.  As we all know, reservation and common sense
> has never been a defining trait of such government agencies, especially
> those with both regulatory and police powers under the same roof.

1) We don't use raw AP, we use APCP. You can't easilly turn APCP back into
AP and rubber.

2) raw AP, which as you (and Pepcon) note is more dangerous than our APCP,
is NOT on the list of explosives.

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 Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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       We need to ensure that actions by our government uphold the
       principles of a democratic society, accountable government and
       international law, and that all decisions are taken in a manner
       consistent with the Constitution.

Scott - 01 Jan 2006 02:17 GMT
1- For clarification, the bulletin I viewed did not specify "raw AP"
however it did not clearly id the substances found as APCP either.
References to "salvaged rocket fuel" would seem to suggest APCP or
similar that has been broken up (in the pictures that I've seen, the
stuff has the general appearance and texture of crushed gravel).
Perhaps it is raw AP or maybe it is APCP, but this is irrelevent to the
point I was trying to make about our regulating bodies, as they really
don't care if it is raw or mixed.

2- I made no claims either way about listings or relative level of
danger posed by either, only that the managers (read politicians) of
agencies who are seeking to make life tough for rocketry see that
"Ammonium Perchlorate", regardless of form, mixture, or compound, is
being used by terrorists to blow up our troops, therefore they think it
should be heavily regulated on this side of the pond as well.  It is an
easy link for them to make and sell to the lawmakers, even though it is
wrong.
AlMax - 04 Jan 2006 02:38 GMT
> similar that has been broken up (in the pictures that I've seen, the
> stuff has the general appearance and texture of crushed gravel).

What if the gravel was GRAVEL !

like in the movie sword fish ?

they use the crushed gravel to do the same thing as the steal balls, but
don't have the girl.
Scott - 05 Jan 2006 23:17 GMT
The military EOD team that defused the bomb said it was AP.  I haven't
met an EOD field hand yet with a political motive or who doesn't take
the time to thoroughly analyze the device and components, so I'll have
to go with the premise that the field report is accurate, even if it is
incomplete about the origins or exact composition (raw AP vs. APCP or
similar solid rocket fuel), that data may have been known but didn't
make it into the agency circulated DHS report, which is not uncommon.
JDcluster - 01 Jan 2006 05:40 GMT
Wouldn't it be easier to just use unexploded cluster bombs instead??

JD

> It's been a bit since I've dropped a post around here, so I thought I
> would end the year with a "bang".  A DHS bulletin that crossed my desk
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Happy New Year (from an undisclosed location),
> Scott
Scott - 01 Jan 2006 17:06 GMT
Where do you get unexploded cluster bombs from?  The easiest way to
fight a rebel war is to use what you have or can easily obtain.  They
already have thousands of Soviet artillery shells hidden away in every
nook and cranny leftover from years of warfare.  They even come
pre-packaged in a nice shrapnel producing metal case.  It seems that
there are plenty of projectiles, but very few of the fuses that screw
into the tip to activate the charge on impact, nor very many 155mm
artillery pieces lying around that they can covertly use to fire the
rounds at the good people without drawing down the wrath of God upon
them (lead by the US Army and Marine Corps).  So, you grab a car (lots
of them around and they blend into the environment quite well), lay a
half dozen of these artillery projectiles on the floor boards and in
the trunk, lace them together with some det cord hooked to a standard
construction blasting cap smuggled in from Syria or stolen from a local
contruction site (the whole country is under construction) and bury the
whole mess in this crumbled up Scud rocket fuel (they have plenty of
that kind of stuff hidden away also).  Lay a piece of carpet over the
top of anything in plain site to disguise your operation right up to
the last second.  Your trigger is nothing more complicated than a
headlight switch wired off the car battery as a "safety" for your
deadman switch (a normally closed push button switch that is depressed
prior to arming the system, when this switch is released the blasting
cap gets a direct connect to the car battery, this is why simply
shooting the bomber as they crash into your facility doesn't help since
the bomb is activated by the cowardly bastard releasing the button as
they die) and if you are really fancy, you can put in a small lamp to
test the circuit prior to connecting it to the blasting cap with a
common 2-conductor plug in automotive wiring connector.  It's a cheap
and dirty way to indiscriminantly murder people.
Alan Jones - 02 Jan 2006 05:42 GMT
>and bury the
>whole mess in this crumbled up Scud rocket fuel (they have plenty of
>that kind of stuff hidden away also).

How do you crumble up Scud rocket fuel?  I thought all the Iraqi Scud
missiles were destroyed, and inspected as such.  Regardless, I would
not want to hide any Scud rocket fuel in my cave.
Scott - 03 Jan 2006 02:30 GMT
I suppose you could freeze the liquids and break it apart with a
hammer... that's what I get for doing 2 things at once and not paying
attention, I was actually thinking about another and much smaller solid
fuel rocket, but the name hath escaped me.
stealthboogie@aol.com - 06 Jan 2006 02:53 GMT
>I was actually thinking about another and much smaller solid fuel rocket, but the name hath escaped me.

RPG... Rocket Propelled Grenade or in Russian: Ruchnoy Protivotankovy
Granatomyot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_propelled_grenade

Doug
Dave Grayvis - 06 Jan 2006 14:32 GMT
>>I was actually thinking about another and much smaller solid fuel rocket, but the name hath escaped me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Doug

I believe He is referring to the hussein 2 missile.
randyolb@charter.net - 06 Jan 2006 23:59 GMT
> I believe He is referring to the hussein 2 missile.

So you're saying Hussein does have WMD's?   ; )

Randy
www.vernarockets.com
Dave Grayvis - 07 Jan 2006 01:27 GMT
>>I believe He is referring to the hussein 2 missile.
>
> So you're saying Hussein does have WMD's?   ; )
>
> Randy
> www.vernarockets.com

Well, I think all He has now is a toothbrush and a copy of the Koran.

If You remember back before We invaded, U.N. weapons inspectors
determined that the solid fuel missiles in question, had a range in
excess of 130 miles (a U.N. resolution violation) and ordered the Iraqis
to destroy them.  No warheads though.
randyolb@charter.net - 07 Jan 2006 01:51 GMT
> If You remember back before We invaded, U.N. weapons inspectors
> determined that the solid fuel missiles in question, had a range in
> excess of 130 miles (a U.N. resolution violation) and ordered the Iraqis
> to destroy them.  No warheads though.

Yep. I believe at some point they'll find more than they bargained for.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com
 
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