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Making You Own Rocket Engines in Australia

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wombatau - 12 Mar 2006 10:37 GMT
Hi all,

I make my own engines regularly, and although it's a bit of a grey
area, I pack them with my own black powder. I have a firearms licence
so I can buy and use black powder like that, but I actually make it
myself which is ok too because of my licences (old rules are best). So,
my engines cost about 3 cents each instead of $20. Necessary if you're
a uni student like me. I saw a couple of you guys are here from
Australia too, and I also saw a couple of posts about obtaining
chemicals to build your own engines.

All of the chemicals you need are available here:
http://home.exetel.com.au/chemicalsolutions/

I've been experimenting with blending copper oxide and strontium
carbonate / black powder engines lately. I'm toying with different
coloured exhaust streams. A little bit of aluminium powder in the mix
has so far been the coolest (bright white). But the strontium carbonate
red is great too. Especially when you mix a bit of iron powder into it
and get a nice jet of red with a gold spark trail.

Take care guys!

-Adam
Impakt - 12 Mar 2006 11:51 GMT
>Hi all,
>
>I make my own engines regularly, and although it's a bit of a grey
>area, I pack them with my own black powder. I have a firearms licence
>so I can buy and use black powder like that, but I actually make it
>myself which is ok too because of my licences (old rules are best).
So you can a permit to manufacture explosives? That's what you need to
legaly make your own motors. Sounds like fun, but give me a commercial
motor any day.

>my engines cost about 3 cents each instead of $20. Necessary if you're
>a uni student like me. I saw a couple of you guys are here from
>Australia too, and I also saw a couple of posts about obtaining
>chemicals to build your own engines.
I am the web master for the Perth Advanced Rocket Club.
I would not go around telling people where to buy chemicals to make
their own motors. It's bad for the hobby unless you have the permits
to do so and most people dont. You can get in SERIOUS trouble for
doing so.

>All of the chemicals you need are available here:
>http://home.exetel.com.au/chemicalsolutions/
And I hope they ask for ID etc.

>I've been experimenting with blending copper oxide and strontium
>carbonate / black powder engines lately. I'm toying with different
>coloured exhaust streams. A little bit of aluminium powder in the mix
>has so far been the coolest (bright white). But the strontium carbonate
>red is great too. Especially when you mix a bit of iron powder into it
>and get a nice jet of red with a gold spark trail.
Sounds good. But since I don't have the required permits and since
I've nearly blown myself up one too many times as it is, I think I'll
stick to commercial motors - they are heaps better even if they are
expensive and a bit hard to get at the moment.

Paul.
wombatau - 12 Mar 2006 11:57 GMT
the only id you need is you need to give them your name and address.
you don't need any special permits to obtain any of the chemicals sold
there. if i could afford commercial motors i would, but they're too
expensive - and a little boring :)
wombatau - 12 Mar 2006 12:47 GMT
actually, they do check your age for some reason.
matt vk3zmw - 13 Mar 2006 09:42 GMT
> the only id you need is you need to give them your name and address.
> you don't need any special permits to obtain any of the chemicals sold
> there. if i could afford commercial motors i would, but they're too
> expensive - and a little boring :)

Too bad they don't have Ba or St nitrate though...
wombatau - 13 Mar 2006 11:20 GMT
if you see the nitrates anywhere, let me know ok :) the carbonates are
good, but not nearly as versatile.
Impakt - 13 Mar 2006 14:55 GMT
>the only id you need is you need to give them your name and address.
well that's something at least. People who fly rockets as part of a
club get a bit touchy when this kind of talk starts because we fear
'basement bombers' which is what we call folks who engage in this sort
of activity (with the exception of folks with level 2 or 3 permits).
It will only take one idiot to kill the hobby in this country, so I
beg anyone who reads this and has thoughts about making motors - don't
do it unless you are skilled and have the required permits!

>you don't need any special permits to obtain any of the chemicals sold
>there.
I know that. It's the manufacture of explosives that bothers us guys.
The hobby is self policed, and if we hear of basement bombers, we call
the police. But if you are doing the right thing, there's no problem.
In fact, experimental rocketry is quite popular and can be very
rewarding, but it can cost you some $$$ in airframes and electronics.

>if i could afford commercial motors i would, but they're too
>expensive
You've got that right :-(

>- and a little boring :)
And I reckon you've got that wrong. What sort of motors have you seen
being flown? Anything you make with black powder is going to suck
(maybe less so than commercial bp motors, but they will still suck
because bp is not a good fuel to use).

Paul.
wombatau - 14 Mar 2006 13:46 GMT
Designing your own rockets from scratch can be an incredibly difficult
but satisfying thing to do, and one of the most technical and rewarding
things you can do is engine design. Different fuels/compositions
require different nozzling, different powder core depth, different
casing because of varying temperatures/pressures, the list goes on :)
For some people, simply launching or just designing the rocket casing
isn't enough of a real experience. These are the people you know who
always create the elaborate multiple engine, multistage rockets. Engine
design is simply the next step.

Black powder is a great fuel. In fact, your estes engines all use it.
For those of you who are interested, the estes c-class engine formula
is:

Source: rec.pyrotechnics, Composition from 1994 US Dept. of Labour
Material Safety Data Sheet.

Potassium nitrate.................................71.79
Sulfur............................................13.45
Charcoal..........................................13.81
Dextrin...........................................0.95

This formula is parts by weight. The standard BP formula is:

Potassium nitrate.................................75
Charcoal..........................................15
Sulfur............................................10

These formulas will only work correctly if ball milled for at least 2
hours. 3 if possible.

Because of the constant media-hyped events over the last couple of
years, making your own black powder can draw a frown of two. In fact,
if I go out and tell someone I meet that I make black powder, they give
me the strangest look - right until I tell them it's for my model
rocketry - then it's all smiles. Seriously though, it's not real wise
to go out and and make a whole batch of black powder just to
"experiment". For those who would like to begin making their own
engines, the first thing they should do is get started reading about
basic rocket engine. Believe it or not, some of the best material I've
ever read has come from pyrotechnics websites. They usually have a
small section about basic rocket engine design so that those wishing to
make skyrockets can first begin by learning how to make the rocket part
:)

This guy has a brilliant site:
http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/indexEN.html

His BP rocket section is here:
http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/rockets_BP_EN.html

After learning basic rocket design, I recommend going out and becoming
a member of a local hunting club and obtaining a category A firearms
licence (Australia). After you have the licence, you are then free to
purchase commercial grade FFFFg black powder which you can begin
packing your own engines with perfectly legally. If you wish to go a
little further and make your own powder, you should obtain an
unsupervised handling licence, followed by a permit to manufacture from
workcover. As far as making BP with only a firearms licence, well, ask
at your local police station if it's allowed in your state or
territory.

Safe Rocketry Guys!
-Adam
mjd - 17 Mar 2006 02:40 GMT
FYI the Estes C-class or any other class formula is:

Commercial black powder, and not FFFFG.....................100%

They don't make their own black powder. The standard formula you quote is
not the standard commercial BP formula, it is a "standard" homebrew
rounded-off number BP formula.

Milling BP on your own >without a thorough understanding of what you are
doing< is very hazardous. While it is a poor propellant for anything other
than small pressed powder motors, it has the singular virtue of buring at a
ferocious rate at atmospheric pressure, unlike composite propellants. It
also auto-ignites at a far lower temperature than composite propellants and
has markedly higher static sensitivity. Other than that it's perfectly safe
to make your own.

As to commercial grade black powder, the smaller the particle size, as in
FFFFG, the worse it is for pressed powder applications for one specific
reason about which I will not elaborate. Unless you're tamping it in in
which case it just doesn't matter.

Have fun!

> Designing your own rockets from scratch can be an incredibly difficult
> but satisfying thing to do, and one of the most technical and rewarding
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> Safe Rocketry Guys!
> -Adam
 
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