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Model Forum / General / Rockets / May 2006ROL NEWS--Roadrunner Rocketry Introduces 29mm Single Use Motors
Roadrunner Rocketry Introduces 29mm Single Use Motors May 17, 2006 Web posted at: 12:27 PM EDT (ROL Newswire) -- Roadrunner Rocketry Inc. introduces three 29mm single use composite model rocket motors in the F and G impulse class. These motors include a two-wire igniter, have a built-in thrust ring and have 7-10% more impulse than competing motors, all at a suggested price about 20% less than competitive offerings. Roadrunner propellant produces white/grey smoke with a bright white flame and a moderate burn time. Rapid propellant is a short burn, high thrust propellant producing a moderate amount of dark smoke that makes it easy to track flights. The motors are as follows: A G80 (Roadrunner Rapid) with total impulse of 108 n-s, peak impulse of 114 n, and a burn time of 1.4 seconds. Delays are 4, 7 and 10 seconds, with retail pricing of $20.95. An F60 (Roadrunner Rapid) with total impulse of 77 n-s, peak impulse of 90 n, and a burn time of 1.3 seconds. Delays are 4, 7 and 10 seconds, with retail pricing of $18.95. An F35 (Roadrunner) with total impulse of 78 n-s, peak impulse of 50 n, and a burn time of 2.3 seconds. Delays are 6 and 10 seconds, with retail pricing of $18.95 These single use motors are fully assembled and contain 62.5 grams or less of propellant. Utilizing a one piece molded casing, the motors have been extensively tested and have proven to be highly reliable and easily ignited. Certified by the National Association of Rocketry, the motors are also approved by the California State Fire Marshal for sale and use in the state of California. Roadrunner has substantial inventories of each motor ready to ship and is in the process of establishing retail distribution and launch site motor vendors. Interested parties should contact Roadrunner by email. For more information, including downloadable wRasp and Rocksim motor files, thrust curves, and instructions for use, see www.RoadrunnerRocketry.com. Source: Roadrunner Rocketry Inc. So who, exactly, is behind Roadrunner Rocketry? David Erbas-White >Roadrunner Rocketry Introduces 29mm Single Use Motors >May 17, 2006 >Web posted at: 12:27 PM EDT > > > So who, exactly, is behind Roadrunner Rocketry? Wile E. Coyote? >> So who, exactly, is behind Roadrunner Rocketry? > > Wile E. Coyote? That would be Acme Rocketry wouldn't it? Someone who is not that well known in rocketry and someone who is. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto > So who, exactly, is behind Roadrunner Rocketry? > > David Erbas-White > Someone who is not that well known in rocketry and someone who is. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> David Erbas-White Let me guess...Bob Korman and Scott Dixon? I'm not bound by an NDA. Gary Do you really think Scott would do that? Guess again. :-) Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto > In article _ULag.21502$HA2.8946@tornado.tampabay.rr.com, Anthony Cesaroni > at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Gary > Do you really think Scott would do that? Guess again. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Gary At least I was 50% right. Re: Scott. I wouldn't be surprised. You then? Gary Domain Name: ROADRUNNERROCKETRY.COM Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC. Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com Name Server: NS2.FATCOW.COM Name Server: NS1.FATCOW.COM Status: REGISTRAR-LOCK EPP Status: clientDeleteProhibited EPP Status: clientTransferProhibited EPP Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 24-Apr-2006 Creation Date: 21-Apr-2004 Expiration Date: 21-Apr-2014 Been around for about 2 years....but I've never heard of 'em again. -Aaron > Domain Name: ROADRUNNERROCKETRY.COM > Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > -Aaron The clue is the name registered less than 3 weeks after the AeroTech/ISP asset sale. Gary Jonathan Richman? http://www.rockinboston.com/mlovers.htm I suspect they will make your rocket go "faster miles an hour". http://jojo.d-and-h.net/ml.htm#roadrunner ;) -Shread Vector NRA #1 Paramount Leader  Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ > So who, exactly, is behind Roadrunner Rocketry? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>May 17, 2006 >>Web posted at: 12:27 PM EDT > Jonathan Richman? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://jojo.d-and-h.net/ml.htm#roadrunner ...only with the "Double Chocolate Malted" propellant formulation. ????? Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ >> Jonathan Richman? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ...only with the "Double Chocolate Malted" propellant formulation. > ????? Another JR&TML classic: http://homepage.mac.com/ramonrempel/JoJo/songs/d/doublechocolatemalted.html With malt added it would no longer be a Frappe (I assume). I loved when my freshman roommate from the suburbs of Detroit complained about how his milkshake tasted like chocolate milk. I asked him "exactly what did you say when you ordered it?" He said "I want a chocolate milk shake". I said: "That's why you got a chocolate milk, because that's what they call them here." Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ >> ????? > > Another JR&TML classic: > > http://homepage.mac.com/ramonrempel/JoJo/songs/d/doublechocolatemalted.html It's a secret recipe that NAR people can't use 'cause you have to make it yourself. ;-) Phil >????? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> ...only with the "Double Chocolate Malted" propellant formulation. > Roadrunner Rocketry Introduces 29mm Single Use Motors > May 17, 2006 > Web posted at: 12:27 PM EDT Let's see. I've developed a product, gotten it certified, built a large inventory, but I don't have a single dealer signed up yet. Anybody see a hole in the business plan here? > Anybody see a hole in the business plan here? Although, perhaps it IS a better way of doing things than getting everyone excited about a new product that never gets built... >> Roadrunner Rocketry Introduces 29mm Single Use Motors >> May 17, 2006 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > inventory, but I don't have a single dealer signed up yet. Anybody see > a hole in the business plan here? Just get a sign that says "Bird Seed" and put it in a pile of motors. Who needs dealers? Beep-Beep! >Let's see. I've developed a product, gotten it certified, built a large >inventory, but I don't have a single dealer signed up yet. Anybody see >a hole in the business plan here? Build a better {mouse trap, rocket motor} and the world will beat a path to your door. Or the dot-com version: put up a web site and people will place orders. Well.. maybe not. They don't have an orders page. When I got to the part about molded casings, I started wondering if this is another instance of repackaged Aerotech motors. The mold for casings isn't cheap. Glen I will say that I know the owner of RoadRunner. He did purchase and arrange for his own molds. He did the design and is having them built on his own. They are not AT, any of the Big 4. He has plenty of stock but was not going to go out and get dealers untill everything was approved and ready to go. This way he was able to take his time to do things right and not have anyone "waiting" on him to go live. Remember what happended to the J350 after the fire when everyone was in a rush to get motors for LDRS? I am sure that he did not want the same problems. This is a stand alone company. He saw a market where there was really only one company producing 29mm motors in the E, F, and G range. The prices for the said motors has been going up and up over the last couple years and there was no reason for them to stop going up. If you wanted to fly E, F, and G power rockets then you had to pay what they demanded. Now the market has another vendor to supply motors in that range. We have what you call are options. And options are a good thing. I just picked up a couple of the motors and will be flying them at NSL in about 10 days. Tim Sapp Dallas Texas HTTP://WWW.SappGeeks.Com (Over 1000 rocket pictures on-line) NAR L3CC #78738 Sooooooo...... Who is the company owner?? Is there a web page? Why all the secrecy? What's the fricken problem??? Fred > I will say that I know the owner of RoadRunner. He did purchase and > arrange for his own molds. He did the design and is having them built [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > NAR L3CC #78738 well, if you look at the orignal post there is a link to HTTP://WWW.RoadRunnerRocketry.Com Tim Found the web page.. > Sooooooo...... Who is the company owner?? Is there a web page? Why all > the secrecy? What's the fricken problem??? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > > > NAR L3CC #78738 > I will say that I know the owner of RoadRunner. He did purchase and > arrange for his own molds. He did the design and is having them built [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > NAR L3CC #78738 You're right, there is no reason for prices to stop going up, unless the costs of labor, materials and overhead start going down. However, if you think that AeroTech prices motors as it does because "there was really only one company producing 29mm motors", you are mistaken. Why would a company want to "invite" additional competition by continually raising prices? The fact is, single-use motor prices are still not as high as they should be, given the current and constantly rising costs of manufacturing and distribution. Ellis Mountain sells 24 & 29mm E, F, and G motors and has provided strong price competition to AeroTech in certain markets. However, they have lower costs of distribution in those markets. I don't see a tremendous difference in price in this case. If I was entering a line of business with one or more existing competitors I might choose to under-price them a little too...for a while. Anyone thinking about competing in this niche market with less than a full understanding of the economic factors involved is naïve. Don't kid yourself...any new vendor will raise their prices when they realize their true costs of doing business. Gary Gary, I will not hide that fact that I am not an AT fan. Not since the last LDRS here in Texas where Mike Martens was yelling, yes YELLING, at Sharon Turner. Called her a thief and then yelled more at her for selling CTI motors and "Trying to put us out of business". All she was doing was selling AT motors that had been promised, and delivered to her. 99.9% of my respect for AT went down the drain right then. (And yes.. I was there and I have seen the video that was shot while it was going on) I have not flown another big AT motor since that LDRS. Everything I have flown since has been CTI, AMW, and research. As for EM gving you competition... Ellis is a nice guy... He is building motors and doing what he can for the love of rocketry. I have a few of his motors in my motor case. (G35s) But he is not into the marketing. Bob on the other hand knows marketing. He knows how to get the name of his company out. He knows how to get vendors and get the motors in the hands of the flyers. I think it's going to be a new game for the 29mm motors from here on out. You are also correct in the pricing aspect... He might have to eventually raise his prices. But Bob is a smart man, a real smart man... I am sure that he looked into all of this for the last year while he was getting everything going. But for now... The retail price for his motors are still cheaper than AT. When they get into the hands of the dealers then I would think there is going to be a bigger spread. For now all my LMR motors are going to have the RoadRunner label on them. And for everyone else... No... I have no ties with the company. Except now being in his customer database. Tim Sapp Dallas Texas HTTP://WWW.SappGeeks.Com NAR L3CC #78738 > Gary, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > NAR L3CC #78738 Tim, It's unfortunate that event happened, but that was Mike and I'm Gary. I was not involved in that incident (which was four years ago), and Mike has not worked for me for a number of years. I would hope that you would not hold that against me personally, and especially harbor a grudge against RCS and its employees. Ask any of our dealers if I or any of my current staff have ever behaved that way around them. BTW the retail price for our new G77R single-use motor is $2 less than RR. Gary > BTW the retail price for our new G77R single-use motor is $2 less than RR. Actually, based on prices listed on each website: $20.95-$19.99 = $.96 cheaper. I don't think I've seen what the regular retail price will be, nor do you say how long the introductory price will last, so the above comparison is not really typical. Let's compare G80 to G80: AT G80 Retail Price: $25.95 First Fire Jr. Igniters: $3.32 each (bought in packs of 3 for $9.95 retail - to make a fair comparison to the RR motors since they come with a 2-wire ignitor) Roadrunner G80 retail price: $20.95 (with 2-wire ignitor comparable to First Fire Jr.) Total retail cost of 3 AT G80's with First Fire Jr.s: $87.80 Total retail cost of 3 RR G80's with 2-wire ignitor: $62.85 Difference: $24.95, or the cost of one motor. I can buy 3 AT motors, or 4 RR motors for about the same price. Seems like pretty simple math to me. I like Redline motors. If I can find a G77 Redline SU motor for $19.95, I'll buy one or two. I have flown dozens of AT motors. I have 4 - 29mm 40/120 cases, and several dozen (at least) reloads. So I have nothing against AT products. However, the RR motors are very easy to prep and fly, and of course don't require clean-up. Plus, if I lose a rocket (like at the last launch I was at), I'm not hit by the loss of a case. Anyone who gets a chance to fly a RR motor will realize what a difference the thrust ring and a regular ignitor make to the prep time. Just my experience and observations, Tony > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > To be fair, the AT engines come with an igniter. You may not LIKE the copperheads, but they do come with them, and when used properly, they do work (though they are obviously not as good as a FFJ). I don't think it's quite fair to compare them as you do, it's more like the direct comparison of $25.95 vs. $20.95 (with the ADVANTAGE that the RoadRunner comes with a 'better' ignitor). But please don't skew results by doing what you can to bump up the price of the AT motors... David Erbas-White David, I based the comparison on my experience. I've used the Copperhead ignitors, but have had such poor luck with them I gave up. I was literally made fun of at a launch several years ago because it took me 3 tries to get the masking tape trick to work. The guy who gave me a hard time was obviously a jerk - he could have offered to help instead - but I pretty much swore off of them after that. So, to me, including the price of the FFJr. igniter is a fair comparison, since I won't use the CH. I wasn't trying to bump up the price 'unfairly' - I did sign the post as based on my experience. Everyone will come to their own conclusions based on what's important to them. The numbers are obvious to anyone interested. As I said, I fly a lot of AT reloads. I like the variety and 'low cost.' I put that in quotes because the price of my four 29mm cases (plus 2 24mm and 2 18mm cases) was not cheap. It takes a while to see those cost savings. And they're gone if a case is lost or damaged. I've stated before that I know Bob (the owner of RR) - so I'm not an unbiased source. Like most of us, I just really want to fly rockets and have a good time. If a new motor makes that easier and cheaper, to me, that's a good thing. In the end, the market will decide the success of the motors. We all get to vote with our dollars. Tony I will add one more to this... We all know that they CH is really called a Crapper Head at really all rocket launches. The first thing I do, and many others down here in Texas at least, is to throw the CrapperHead in the trash. I then use a QuickBurst to light the motors. But David is correct... Since they do come with an "ignitor" we have to compare the retail prices... 25.95 X 3 = $77.85 for 3 AT G80 Motors. 20.95 X 3 = $62.85 for 3 RR G80 Motors A difference of $15.00 And I don't think that I have ever gone to a rocket launch and not fown at least two or three rockets over the weekend. That $15.00 is a real nice dinner for me on the way from from the launch. And I am not near as bias as Tony is. I have met and talked to Bob on several occations. But... I have met and talked with many many rocket flyers around here. Tim O.k., all the 'secrecy controversy' aside, I would like to try a couple of RR motors. Is there a mail-order dealer selling them yet, or are we talking on-site vendors only at this time? > That $15.00 is a real nice dinner for me on the way from > the launch. Or enough gas to get the Suburban from McGregor to Waco :) Seriously, I pay a lot more attention to that now. Round trip from Plano to McGregor costs me most of a tank, or close to 40 bucks. That 15 dollars saved does not go unappreciated. Doug > It's unfortunate that event happened, but that was Mike and I'm Gary. I was > not involved in that incident (which was four years ago), and Mike has not > worked for me for a number of years. I would hope that you would not hold > that against me personally, and especially harbor a grudge against RCS and I got to know Mike while he did work for you, and it's also very out of character for the person I got to know. I had a lot of respect for him. But you're absolutely right that a company should not rest onthe actions of one person. If something like this did happen, the thing to do would be to bring it to the attention of someone higher up at the time it happened. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Klein bottle for sale -- inquire within. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Soo.... Who are you going to talk to about Barry??? <G> David Erbas-White > > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > David Erbas-White Hush, David. Curses! He's released the genie! He's released the genie! SignatureTweak > Who are you going to talk to about Barry??? <G> I immediately dealt with the show management, and the next business day filed a complaint with the Rosemont police. The police physically escorted him out of the expo center at the time of the incident. Last I heard, the police weren't about to chase him down, but said they would arrest him if he returned to Rosemont. At the time Estes was still owned by TCW, and I contacted them as well. Someone told me that the incident was probably planned by Barry's second in command. Brian? I don't think they remotely believed that I'd not fight back, giving them the excuse to sue me and shut me up. The alternative was that I'd sue Barry, leaving the other jerk in charge. I'll bet that even Barry didn't realize that his guy probalby set us BOTH up so he could take control. Too bad for him it didn't work that way. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org The president has broken the law and, in some way, he must be held accountable. -- Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) >> Who are you going to talk to about Barry??? <G> The alternative was > that I'd sue Barry, leaving the other jerk in charge. I'll bet that even > Barry didn't realize that his guy probalby set us BOTH up so he could take > control. Too bad for him it didn't work that way. Why didn't you sue Barry, Time might be running out ! Cranny Dane. Bob, It was Mike and it was at LDRS back in 2002. That is a 100% fact. Like I said... It was even caught on Video tape. No one every sent an "I'm sorry" or anything to Sharon. Tim > Bob, > > It was Mike and it was at LDRS back in 2002. That is a 100% fact. > Like I said... It was even caught on Video tape. > No one every sent an "I'm sorry" or anything to Sharon. I don't doubt you. I just find it very out of character for the Mike that I knew. That doesn't make it right or make it go away. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org The president has broken the law and, in some way, he must be held accountable. -- Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) >> It's unfortunate that event happened, but that was Mike and I'm Gary. I was >> not involved in that incident (which was four years ago), and Mike has not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > one person. If something like this did happen, the thing to do would be to > bring it to the attention of someone higher up at the time it happened. There are usually two sides to a story, and this one is no exception. Without going into all the specifics, it was my understanding that Mike had a good reason to be upset. That said, there certainly were better ways to deal with the situation. Gary > Gary, > > I will not hide that fact that I am not an AT fan. Not since the > last LDRS here in Texas where Mike Martens was yelling, yes YELLING, at > Sharon Turner. Called her a thief and then yelled more at her for > selling CTI motors and "Trying to put us out of business". You sure that wasn't Rocketman yelling at the Bartons during LDRS 19? What is it with rocket vendors/company owners, anyway? If some vendor behaved like that at the race track they would get beaned with a fork tube, then told to never come back. SignatureTweak Tim, Tim, Ask Sharon to see if see has enough integrity to verify the following: 1. She and her assistant were set up next to where the AT (Ellis sourced, pre-ordered, motors were being delivered to LDRS dealers. 2. Sharon and her assistant, being afraid that Ellis had not made enough motors to fill her order (she was partially correct although he came close), entered the AT booth when I was away and took, without notifying any AT official, several dozen propellant grains (54mm I believe). 3. Later the next morning, while I was trying to understand why my inventory was off, another of her assistants came to the AT booth asking for the smoke charges needed to complete her customer orders for the motors for which she had sold. 4. Yes I was mad and I did yell at her! Her only defense was that she wanted to fill her order and that whe was going to do what it took to do so. 5. If a person takes things without telling anyone about it (why did she not come to me personally the next morning and tell me that she had taken them? If she had things would have probably worked out ok) and then only after a time admit to taking the grains, what does that make her? If she had had the smoke grains, would she had even bothered to let AT know that she had taken them? Tim, you do not/did not have all the facts in your possession and have engaged in ready, shoot and then aim. Ask the other dealers there about the effort that it took AT and Bob Ellis to work out the details to be able to get any motors to LDRS that summer. Grow up and ask Sharon if that is essentially what happened. Mike > Gary, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > NAR L3CC #78738 Oh Nice... "Grow Up and Ask..." If anyone needs to grow it up it would be you. Being in a business of sales you should know that yelling at a dealer \ customer is never an "adult" way to do anything. You should know to keep a calm manner while doing problem resolution. With this last comment about "Grow up and Ask" tells me that you still have not learned that lession. I have talked to Sharon. What I was told was she had invoices paid for and delivery promised at LDRS. They were handed to her... Not taken out of the back of the trailer like you suggest. And it does no good to go back and ask her... She has gotten out of the business. And I have grown up... I have bought a few motors from AT since then... I even ordered a couple of the H999 motors, but I have not ordered any of the big motors since that day. I am glad that you are no longer with AT\RCS. The day you start working for them again is the last day I ever buy an AT\RCS motor again, no matter the size... There are too many others around now that can supply my motors for me. Tim I actually miss Mike. Gary is far to conciliatory. :-) Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto > Oh Nice... "Grow Up and Ask..." If anyone needs to grow it up it > would be you. Being in a business of sales you should know that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Tim Mike said: "Grow up and ask Sharon if that is essentially what happened." Mike, Are you implying that her actions justified yours? She tried to make her customers whole and you scream at her? Even if it happened exactly as you describe, it does not justify yelling at someone who was just trying to pick up where her husband had left off - taking care of her customers. If you think your explanation excuses your behavior, you're wrong in my book. You might as well said, "well, she started it." I understand that you were upset, but to try and justify your actions shows that you still don't get it. You don't yell at the widow of one of the most respected motor vendors in the hobby and not incur the ire and wrath everyone that knows her or knew Jim. A simple, "I apologize for losing my temper" would have gone a long way here. I've got video of you yelling at her. A short segment of it even made it onto my LDRS 21 DVD. Hearing your side of the story does not make it any easier to watch. Tony. > Mike said: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Tony. He lost me at "grow up". Upload the video. SignatureTweak > (ROL Newswire) -- Roadrunner Rocketry Inc. introduces three 29mm single > use composite model rocket motors in the F and G impulse class. These > motors include a two-wire igniter, have a built-in thrust ring and have > 7-10% more impulse than competing motors, all at a suggested price about > 20% less than competitive offerings. From the web site, these look like the AT molded casings. Are these relabeled AT motors, a la PML and RocketVision? SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Klein bottle for sale -- inquire within. Not even close. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto > From the web site, these look like the AT molded casings. Are these > relabeled AT motors, a la PML and RocketVision? Where has JI Been!!! > Not even close. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> From the web site, these look like the AT molded casings. Are these >> relabeled AT motors, a la PML and RocketVision? Well, as you seem to have some insight, how about sharing? Here's my concern -- I was going to purchase a number of Ellis Mountain E motors some time back, but witnessed a bunch of cato's that made me put my wallet away. So, lacking any track record, and lacking knowledge of the individuals involved, why would I 'risk' using this manufacturer? If it's folks that are known by the industry, great! If it's not, that seems 'strange', because I don't know how (or why <G>) someone not involved in rocketry would be getting into this business (and apparently have certified product but no dealers). If the manufacturer's are attempting to 'hide', I have cause for concern as well, because I have to ask what/why they're hiding. So, I would respectfully ask that you share what knowledge you can, for the betterment of us lesser mortals... David Erbas-White >Not even close. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > David, Roadrunner Rocketry products are not re-labeled OEM motors from another manufacturer. The first round of certification testing occurred about a month ago and NAR S&T provided the owner of Roadrunner Rocketry a statement of certification that allowed him to fly the motors at several launches in Texas. If you ask around the Texas flying community, I think you'll find some of the answers you are looking for. I'm under a NDA with the manufacturer, so I can't give you anymore details. Best Regards, John Lyngdal NAR Trustee NAR S&T Secretary > Well, as you seem to have some insight, how about sharing? Keep in mind that Anthony may well have been asked by the individual(s) involved in the company to keep it confidential. Based on the behavior I've seen from Anthony, I very much believe he would take such a request, and his agreement with it, VERY seriously (as would be appropriate). The fact that he hasn't stated anything more than he has is a strong indicator that he's been asked to keep what he knows private. -Kevin With all due respect, the proper response in that case would have been to say nothing. The two comments he made come very close to "I know something you don't know; neener, neener, neener..." I add that I have great respect for Anthony, but the very fact that he posted ANYTHING about it led me to believe that he's not under an NDA -- as the only appropriate response (if under an NDA) is not to say ANYTHING (it's a non-disclosure agreement, not a some-disclosure agreement, is it not?). I'm working with several folks under an NDA (I'm the owner of the information) at the moment. In my mind, that leaves it up to ME to decide how and when information is disseminated, unless I specifically authorize otherwise -- that's the POINT of having an NDA. As far as the general announcement is concerned, as I stated, I find it unusual, to say the least. It's obviously somebody committed to the effort (witness the completion of certifications prior to any announcement), but it is very strange that the product is announced, with the statement apparently made that product is available, yet there are no dealers and no real contact information. It perks up my antenna, that's all. Perhaps there are good and valid reasons for it, and I'm perfectly willing to wait and see, but in the interim, it causes concern to at least some portion of the end-user community, which can't possibly be a good thing for the manufacturer. David Erbas-White >> Well, as you seem to have some insight, how about sharing? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -Kevin David, Boy, are you suspicious! The owner is Bob Korman, my next door neighbor. He got interested in the motor making business a couple of years ago. He's worked extremely hard to bring these motors to market. The number of obstacles he's worked to overcome has been staggering, and after having watched the process, I can't believe he's finally made it. I have personally flown over 20 of these motors with great success. They have lit the first time every time when using the supplied 2 wire ignitor. (Shameless self plug - my rocket and photo are on the pics page on his website.) There's nothing super secret about it. Very few businesses post personal information on their website. He does have contact info on his website - if you email him he'll gladly tell you who he is. Look at his site and you'll see he's got plenty of info available - wRASP files, Rocksim data, tips and tricks, etc. In fact, he's been talking to Chuck G. of wRASP fame to make sure he gets things right. Chuck even recenly posted on the DARS list that partly in response to Bob's inquiries he's trying to get wRASP updated. It's just good business sense to not tip your hand to the market (or competition) before you're ready. With all the roadblocks that came up, there was no way to know when he would actually be able to ship. No vaporware here, he waited until he had lots of motors to ship so he can meet what he hopes will be a substantial demand. It's hard to sign up dealers without a product to ship, or worse sign them and and then not fulfill demand. Look what happened when AT was unable to supply Hobby Lobby. The motors are great. The integrated thrust ring makes prep time a snap - no tape thrust ring to build up. Retention is very easy - if you have any motor tube protuding beyond the centering ring, just run several wraps of tape around it and the thurst ring. Done in conjunction with a good friction fit and it's nearly impossible to kick a motor. The ignitor is a 'real' ignitor that has proven to be very reliable. The price is considerably below others available, and they offer more total thrust than comparable motors. While the G motor is longer than comparable AT G's, I flew mine in several AT kits just fine. The second photo on his website is an AT Strongarm without the strakes. The motor overhangs the retention clip a bit, but stability was never an issue. Of coure, every flyer should check the CG/CP relationship of every rocket before flight, but I doubt they'll be any issues using them in AT kits. Bob even has a set of instructions on his site on how to modify an AT kit during build so it will work with longer motors. (on the 'more info' page) I have every confidence that when flyers get a chance to use one of these motors, they'll be very pleased. As always, the market will determine the fate of the motor. Based on my personal experience, I have complete confidence that they will be in demand by folks who fly F & G motors. More power for less money, a built-in thrust ring, a two-wire ignitor, and high reliability. What's not to like? If you read his website, he makes it very clear on how to become a dealer. It's not an involved process. Heck, if you want to sell his motors, contact him and become a dealer. It's not rocket science. Like all motors over 30 grams, they do require HAZMAT shipping, which Bob is very strict about. Anyone who's been on RMR for a while knows what happens when you ship motors illegally. None of us want our hobby attacked for creating a shipping hazard. This is a very serious business venture that took lots of time, cash, and hard work. I've been able to watch the process and stick my nose in now and again and I've been amazed at the amount of hard work Bob has put into this endeavor. I wish him success. Cordially, Tony Huet And this is exactly what I am happy to hear, and look forward to trying out some of his motors! Thanks for the info! That's really all I was asking for, was some 'validation' that this isn't vaporware, and that it doesn't come from folks I may not care to do business with. David Erbas-White >David, >Boy, are you suspicious! [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > Ditto on your response David. Now that that is settled, I'm looking forward to trying the product.. Fred > And this is exactly what I am happy to hear, and look forward to trying > out some of his motors! Thanks for the info! [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > >snipped > With all due respect, the proper response in that case would have been > to say nothing. The two comments he made come very close to "I know [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ANYTHING (it's a non-disclosure agreement, not a some-disclosure > agreement, is it not?). There's a difference between an NDA and a request to "please keep this under your hat for the time being". One has legal ramifications, the other is a request based on personal trust and integrity. I don't take Anthony's response as an "I know something you don't," but rather as a "trust me, guys, this operation is safe to deal with; I know who's involved in it". -Kevin Thank you Kevin. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto > I don't take Anthony's response as an "I know something you don't," but > rather as a "trust me, guys, this operation is safe to deal with; I know > who's involved in it". > > -Kevin > Not even close. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> From the web site, these look like the AT molded casings. Are these >> relabeled AT motors, a la PML and RocketVision? "No they are not" is the correct answer. Gary Guys, I wanna buy some but where can I mail order. Am out in the boondocks. I emailed RR but I suspect he is busy filling orders and I can't hold that against him. Any mail order sites? Kurt |
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