 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups General ModelsRailroadsRocketsRadio Controlled Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater ModelsModelGeeks.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Model Forum / General / Rockets / August 2006Effects of getting a LEUP...
I have just recieved an application to get a LEUP. I live in CA, if that makes any difference to the question I am asking. Here is the question... Durring the process or there after recieving a LEUP will I have government inspectors comming to my house for periodic inspections? I don't know if I want them snooping around my house. One of my concerns is that I have been making my own motors (most of which are less than the 62.5 grams mentioned on this newsgroup). The larger ones I have used up and will discontinue making if it is required. But at the same time I have been testing up to D size motors in my garage in a 6ft x 4 x 4 ft steel test cell I built to contain the exhaust gas and contain any CATO event. It works great. But if the ATF people saw it I am affraid it would not be a good thing. This is why I am hesetant to have them come and inspect my home. If I go through with the LEUP will I need to get rid of this test cell and suspend motor making? Thanks for the help, KT It's me again. I guess I should have used a spell checker for the 1st post. Oh well. A clarification to the original question. I am applying for just the LEUP. No storage addendum. This might affect the answer about making and testing motors. I live in a community that has outlawed fire works of any kind including sparklers. So having homemade motors in my garage might be a problem and since getting permission from the local fire department in order to get a storage addendum to my LEUP is pretty much out of the question where I live. So I will be just getting the LEUP with out storage. What a mess to live in good old CA. KT > So I will be just getting the LEUP with out storage. What a > mess to live in good old CA. There is no such thing as a LEUP without storage. The BATFE will require you to have 'contingency' storage - someplace to go with any motor(s) you may have left over after a launch or otherwise that remain in your possession. You will need to arrange with *someone*, either another LEUP holder or perhap the vendor you use to store for you. Ok, the question is still are they going to come and inspect initially or on a periodic basis? KT >Ok, >the question is still are they going to come and inspect initially or on a >periodic basis? They generally only do inspections of the storage. I am doing storage for myself and two others. The last guy who had to renew his LEUP, the ATF agent came to my house to check out the storage. They never visited his house as they have no reason to. The ATF is supposed to do at least one "suprise" compliance inspection during each three year license period, but I haven't seen an agent since my last renewal. In my case, I'm usually not home during the hours when the ATF would come by, so they show up and then have to call to schedule the compliance inspection. This reminds that my LEUP expires this fall and I better start the renewal process. Brian Elfert Please insist that the ATF provide you with the proper renewal form as required by 27 CFR 555.46 This form must exist as it is currently under review by the OMB in accordance with the Paperwork Reduction Act. > This reminds that my LEUP expires this fall and I better start the renewal > process. > > Brian Elfert  SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ >Please insist that the ATF provide you with the proper renewal form as >required by 27 CFR 555.46 >This form must exist as it is currently under review by the OMB in >accordance with the Paperwork Reduction Act. Is there a different renewal form than the initial application form? I don't remember from my last renewal three years ago. Brian Elfert >> Please insist that the ATF provide you with the proper renewal form as >> required by 27 CFR 555.46 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Brian Elfert 555.46 Renewal of license or permit. (a) If a licensee or permittee intends to continue the business or operation described on a license or permit issued under this part after the expiration date of the license or permit, he shall, unless otherwise notified in writing by the Chief, Firearms and Explosives Licensing Center, execute and file prior to the expiration of his license or permit an application for license renewal, ATF F 5400.14 (Part III), or an application for permit renewal, ATF F 5400.15 (Part III), accompanied by the required fee, with ATF in accordance with the instructions on the form. This is the current notice of review: http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/200 6/pdf/E6-13229.pdf SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ "What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it." from They Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer >It's me again. I guess I should have used a spell checker for the 1st post. > Oh well. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >KT If you local govt will not let you have a permit, neither will ATF. Phil > I have just recieved an application to get a LEUP. I live in CA, if that > makes any difference to the question I am asking. Here is the question... > Durring the process or there after recieving a LEUP will I have government > inspectors comming to my house for periodic inspections? As a documented user of low explosives, your blip on their radar will be larger than the rest of the community. By signing their papers, you give them permission to investigate you and your premises if they have a reason. The "reason" they come up with can be totally arbitrary and completely up to them. (Remember, they think rocket motor propellant explodes!) But, probably nuthin' bad will happen... steve >I have just recieved an application to get a LEUP. I live in CA, if that >makes any difference to the question I am asking. Here is the question... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Thanks for the help, >KT If you have a LEUP, you are subject to periodic inspections. I had one when I initially got my LEUP, one when I renewed it and one right after 9/11. My stuff is in an attached garage. They did not go looking around in the house. Home made propellant does not require a LEUP so I wouldn't be concerned about it but I also wouldn't leave it out in front of their face either. That's a hefty test stand for a D. I doubt if any of the inspectors I had would know what it was but there again, I wouldn't stick it in his face. A plastic tapr will keep it clean, dry & out of site. Phil >If you have a LEUP, you are subject to periodic inspections. I had >one when I initially got my LEUP, one when I renewed it and one right >after 9/11. My stuff is in an attached garage. They did not go He isn't planning to have his own storage so the ATF will likely never even visit his location. In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine. Brian Elfert > In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine > and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they > don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no > gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine. Who has a garage with no gasoline in it? Got only electric cars out where you live? SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! >> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine >> and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they >> don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no >> gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine. >Who has a garage with no gasoline in it? Got only electric cars out where >you live? The ATF just wants to be sure you don't have a gas can on the same shelf as the magazine or something like that. Gas cans on the other side of the garage are okay. They are not concerned about where cars park. It makes no sense as the car is full of gasoline that is more explosive than any APCP motor. Brian Elfert >>> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine >>> and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Brian Elfert You are confusing "The ATF" with the individulal inspectors that came to visit. Gasoline has never been an issue with the individual inspectors that visited me. It would not surprise me if a different one came out the next time and did ask about it. Phil > In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine > and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they > don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no > gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine. > > Brian Elfert Really? What part of the orange book describes these requirements? >> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine >> and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they >> don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no >> gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine. >> >> Brian Elfert >Really? What part of the orange book describes these requirements? I am just going by what the agents have said when they come to my garage. I don't have the orange book memorized. Brian Elfert >> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine >> and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they >> don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no >> gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine. > > Really? What part of the orange book describes these requirements? It's Calvinball. They make up the rules as they go. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! >>If you have a LEUP, you are subject to periodic inspections. I had >>one when I initially got my LEUP, one when I renewed it and one right >>after 9/11. My stuff is in an attached garage. They did not go Why are you telling me this - >He isn't planning to have his own storage so the ATF will likely never >even visit his location. And you pretty much repeat what I said? Am I missing something. We are both answering the question he asked. >In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine >and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they >don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no >gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine. > >Brian Elfert As seemingly relevent as it is, I've never been asked to move flamables away from my magazine. Phil >>In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine >>and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Phil I was told that since I had flammables (a partial gallon each of acetone and mineral spirits and some spray paint) and a gas hot water heater in my garage, I would be required to install a power ventilation system and move the flammables to another area of the garage. I said I'd never seen that in the requirements and was told that putting in a vent would be easy compared to getting a permit if I challenged her recommendation. So I installed a power ventilation system. Didn't much matter though, the Houston Fire Marshall refused to allow it. Said I needed a Houston Explosives Permit. Houston doesn't (didn't?) differentiate between high and low explosives. I had to have a dynamite rated storage facility 75' away from any occupied building. He went on to tell me that no one would ever come looking for my rocket motors and told me to just "do what ever you want to do illegally. Leave us the hell alone and we won't bother you!" Direct quote. Never did get my permit. But I did move my flammables and install power ventilation. Dave >>>In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine >>>and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Dave Don't you love the consistency? Phil The ATF does not have the authority to snoop around your house. Check out the law at: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ You want Title 18, Chapter 40 And the regulations at: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html Title 27 part 555. The regulations derive their authority from the law. The law (18 USC 843(f) states: The Attorney General may enter during business hours the premises (including places of storage) of any licensee or holder of a user permit, for the purpose of inspecting or examining (1) any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee or permittee, under the provisions of this chapter or regulations issued hereunder, and (2) any explosive materials kept or stored by such licensee or permittee at such premises. ... The Secretary [1] may inspect the places of storage for explosive materials of an applicant for a limited permit or, at the time of renewal of such permit, a holder of a limited permit, only as provided in subsection (b)(4). The regulations implementing the law state: 555.24 Right of entry and examination. (a) Any ATF officer may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensee or holder of a user permit for the purpose of inspecting or examining any records or documents required to be kept under this part, and any facilities in which explosive materials are kept or stored. So it would appear that the ATF only has authority for warrantless searches of your records and storage. If they want more, they will need either your permission or a search warrant. I first applied for a permit (by the way, there is no longer any such thing as a LEUP) in 1997 during the first big ATF 62.5 gram scare. Two agents came and interviewed me. They couldn't inspect my storage because I didn't have any. At that time you could have a permit without storage. It wasn't until after the Safe Explosives Act that the ATF deleted the language in the regulations that provided that option. I never could find anything in the SEA that justified that action. After that I did not see another ATF agent until after 9/11. I received a phone call around renewal time and that was it. I next saw an agent at renewal time in 2004. The agent looked at my records and hand copied some information from them. She also looked at my spiffy new magazine. (More details of my renewal at http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/regulation/renewal.html ) I have not seen or heard from the ATF since then. The questionnaire the agent used during that interview still has not been approved by the OMB. Federal regulations prohibit any federal agency from using an unapproved information collection and also prohibit them from taking adverse action against anyone who refuses to participate in an unapproved collection. Keep that in mind if they trot it out for you. Contrary to the behavior of the ATF in Washington, most field agents know that APCP is not a threat and only want to get the process completed so they can get back to doing something useful. > I have just recieved an application to get a LEUP. I live in CA, if that > makes any difference to the question I am asking. Here is the question... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks for the help, > KT SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ > The questionnaire the agent used during that interview still has not > been approved by the OMB. Federal regulations prohibit any federal > agency from using an unapproved information collection and also prohibit > them from taking adverse action against anyone who refuses to > participate in an unapproved collection. Keep that in mind if they trot > it out for you. They used that form with my last renewal / inspection as well. I asked for a copy and was refused. I asked for a copy of their list of regulated motors and was refused. I asked for a copy of the LAW that regulated motors over 62.5 grams and she showed me her copy of the federal register with the nPrm. > Contrary to the behavior of the ATF in Washington, most field agents > know that APCP is not a threat and only want to get the process > completed so they can get back to doing something useful. Which still makes them a bunch of useless JBGTs. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! >> The questionnaire the agent used during that interview still has not >> been approved by the OMB. Federal regulations prohibit any federal [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Which still makes them a bunch of useless JBGTs. I just dug out the link to a copy of this form: http://www.isee.org/downloads/AdminPers.pdf Notice that it does not have an OMB number on it. The OMB keeps a list of all approved collections which you can view on their web site. This form isn't listed and has not appeared in the Federal Register as being under review ever. I plan to tell them what they can do with it the next time I renew. SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ "What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it." from They Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer > I just dug out the link to a copy of this form: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > isn't listed and has not appeared in the Federal Register as being under > review ever. Just what do they plan to do with the information in question 18 ;) how many bsods would they want to track. All, Thanks for all the answers. KT |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.