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Model Forum / General / Rockets / August 2006LEUP w/indoor storage-I'm going in!
Sorry in advance for the long post. I'm going to try for a LEUP with an indoor storage waiver. I live in a typical NJ neighborhood with less than ½ acre of land. I can't have an outdoor storage magazine since I don't have enough property to meet the 75ft minimum in the table of distances in the Orange Book. So I'm going to make an appointment to see the local fire official here in Plainsboro NJ and see if he will permit me to store an explosives magazine in my attached garage. As luck would have it, the house is pretty new, and the building codes around here are very tough. The sheet rock in the garage is 5/8" thick. So my garage walls have a one-hour fire resistance rating. The door between the garage and the house appears to be fire rated as well. It is metal and the part the faces the garage appears to be extra thick (you can see this when looking at the side of the door). The builder also installed UL-rated, spring-loaded hinges that say "door closer body". Unfortunately, the door hinges do not close the door (I think the springs are too weak). I could install a door closer to remedy this. These things appear to address most of the issues with storage of a magazine in an attached garage. As far as I can see, I should be OK with a high quality Type-2 or Type-4 explosives magazine. I really cannot see any reason why an indoor magazine would pose a problem. I've tried to read everything I could to prepare for the meeting. I looked up the various codes as best I could. For those who may attempt the same thing, here is what I found so far: I went to the local library and began looking up codes as best I could. I read the Plainsboro code, which essentially adopts the New Jersey Uniform Fire Code. I did not see anything in either of these codes that cover the storage of explosives. In fact, based on some confusing language in the Plainsboro code, it is not entirely clear to me that either of these codes apply to "owner-occupied one and two-family dwellings." But like I said, these codes did not say anything about explosives storage. I also checked my housing covenants and they don't say anything about explosives storage. I also did a text search for explosives in the NJ Administrative Code. I did find some text relating to explosives at 12:190-5.1 et seq. This section is entitled "Subchapter 5 - Storage of Explosives." Perhaps Plainsboro follows this part of the NJ Administrative Code, perhaps not. In any event, the only issue I see here is that the NJ Administrative Code defines a metal Type-4 magazine as having 16-gauge metal, lined with a nonsparking material. Every Type-4 magazine that I have seen uses 18-gauge metal a much thinner gauge. So, if Plainsboro follows the NJ Administrative Code, I might need a Type-2 magazine. So the local Fire official is the next step. Wish me luck! Dan A few thoughts - You were unclear as to weather yours is a single or two family dwelling. If it is a teo family dwelling and you want to keep it in your attached garage, the ATF almost certainly won't give you a storage permit. If it is ann attached garage & you live in a single family dwelling, you can probably get approved with a waiver. I can't imagine NJ not allowing the commercial magazines we normally use. I don't think I'd mention it but if they do, I'd just say that it is an ATF approved Type 2 or 4 magazine for low explosives and your stuff isn't explosive anyway. Here's the place that advertises in Rockets Magazine http://www.usexplosive.com/?Click=707 looks like that shold have anything you need. Phil >Sorry in advance for the long post. > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > >Dan It's a single family home. I've got my fingers crossed. Dan >A few thoughts - > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >> >>Dan You've probably got 'bomber' hinges. Look on the top and see if there aren't several holes in them, and a pin in one. If so, get a small finish nail which fits in the hole. Now be smart about it, figure out how strong the spring is before you pull the pin. The idea is to remove the pin, pull against the tension a couple spots, replace the pin, repeat. Do this until you get the springs taut enough to close the door. Remember don't grab it all with one hinge, all three will do the work. If that works you've saved the cost of a door closer. Chuck Cuchk, that was a great suggestion. You were exactly right. The builder did not install any pins - hence no spring tension. I found some round rod and made some pins. I turned the insert part (it has an allen key opening) until I got some spring tension. Then I stuck some pins in ... and voila now the door closes automatically. Thanks, Dan >You've probably got 'bomber' hinges. Look on the top and see if there >aren't several holes in them, and a pin in one. If so, get a small [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Chuck > Cuchk, that was a great suggestion. You were exactly right. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >>Chuck I'll send you the bill........it will cost you 5 rock_it exposing posts......and you know where. ;-) Chuck > Cuchk, that was a great suggestion. You were exactly right. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Dan The bill is in the mail. ;-) Chuck Quite a few people (mtself included) have gotten their LEUPs with single family homes with attached garages. Good luck. Phil >It's a single family home. I've got my fingers crossed. > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >>> >>>Dan > Sorry in advance for the long post. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Snip the story: Good luck Dan. In NJ you need a permit for your dog to fart. The town council will most likely ask you to get a variance. Your neighbors will need to sign. Go door to door and tell them you need permission to store explosives next to them. Wear a turban and bow a lot. Tom Dont wait too long. Its 4 months, 2 weeks since application was filed. Succesful ATF inspection in June. Still waiting.... > Sorry in advance for the long post. > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Dan Did you need a seperate magazine for ignitors ? I would sure hate to buy two magazines. Thanks, Dan >Dont wait too long. > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> >> Dan Up here in NY you the local ATF says a separate magazine will be needed to store ignitors. If you do not plan to store ignitors, or use non-pyro ignition (resistors) or obtain your igniters on site you will only need 1 magazine. > Did you need a seperate magazine for ignitors ? I would sure hate to > buy two magazines. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > >> > >> Dan > Did you need a seperate magazine for ignitors ? I would sure hate to > buy two magazines. The federal variance conditions for storage in an attached garage state that storage of igniters is in a separate magazine. I took that to mean the e-matches as well. I have two magazines for storage and I separate the igniters from the rest of the reloads as I get them. This is a requirement of the variance for attached garage storage. You can still transport your material or store it while at the launch site in one magazine. Yes, it sucks.  SignatureTom Koszuta Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers Buffalo, NY Just to be clear -- is this a requirement only for an attached garage? Does it apply to a detached garage, or to a separate shed? And in regards to a shed, are there any specific requirements in relation to one? Thanks in advance for any information, while I'm still donating to the legal fund and hoping to have legislative/judicial relief, it looks as though I may have to apply for a LEUP myself... David Erbas-White > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > This is a requirement for ATF to grant the variance to allow storage in an attached garage, only. Tom K. > Just to be clear -- is this a requirement only for an attached garage? > Does it apply to a detached garage, or to a separate shed? And in regards [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >>Yes, it sucks. Read the ATF regulations carefully and you will see that they require separate storage of _detonators_ but no mention of igniters. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html This separate storage thing is something pulled from out of thin air by the ATF. If you look at their published ruling on attached garage variances, it makes no mention of this requirement. http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/2002-3.htm This ruling does require that the storage be in compliance with local law. My local fire code says that storage and use of rocket motors will comply with NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127. NFPA 1127 has a provision stating that reload kits will not be opened until you are ready to use them. (4.5.7) So opening the package to remove the igniter would put me in non-compliance with the local code. I am not sure why the ATF has a problem with this. Most display fireworks are now shipped from the factory with an e-match installed in the lift charge. So there are many tons of explosives currently stored in the US that have an "igniter" not only in the same magazine but in close contact with the explosive. If this were a serious problem, fireworks magazines would be blowing up on a very regular basis. They aren't. > Just to be clear -- is this a requirement only for an attached garage? > Does it apply to a detached garage, or to a separate shed? And in [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >> SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ Q. Where am I? A. You can't get there from here. That was mentioned to me when I got my permit. When I showed ths guy that they were shipped with the igniter inside the sealed bag, he let it slide. Not all igniters are regulated. If you are using unregulated igniters, I wouldn't have them around of mention it to them. If you are using regulated ignitors, you have to do whatever they want. It makes sense not to put the stuff that lights the stuff you are trying to protect yourself from in the same box. If it comes up, maybe offer to put the ignitors in an ammo box inside the magazine. Being inside the magazine makes it secure and the ammo box keeps the two things seperate. This will probably not be an acceptable solution for some agents but maybe you'll get lucky and get one that knows what they're dealing with. Phil >Did you need a seperate magazine for ignitors ? I would sure hate to >buy two magazines. > >Thanks, >Dan > That was mentioned to me when I got my permit. When I showed ths guy > that they were shipped with the igniter inside the sealed bag, he let [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > makes sense not to put the stuff that lights the stuff you are trying > to protect yourself from in the same box. Wait a minute, I thought the purpose of the box was to prevent _theft_. > If it comes up, maybe offer > to put the ignitors in an ammo box inside the magazine. Being inside [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> Thanks, >> Dan SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ Q. Where am I? A. You can't get there from here. >> That was mentioned to me when I got my permit. When I showed ths guy >> that they were shipped with the igniter inside the sealed bag, he let [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Wait a minute, I thought the purpose of the box was to prevent _theft_. Just an idea for something that might make the ATF happy without having to buy two magazines. SOme people already have bought two. If you are trying to apply logic, you would use a flammables cabinet instead of a magazine. Phil OK, here is a quick update. I'm still not sure whether I can get local approval. I did have a telephone discussion with the local fire official. I really just wanted to make an appointment to come and see him in person. But he naturally wanted to know why I called. We discussed the ATF permit process. I explained that I needed certify to the ATF that my storage method complies with state and local laws. The fire official was very nice about the request. He was not familiar with high power rocket engines. He said that he needed to do some research on the topic before he could tell me anything. He confirmed that there are no local laws covering storage of this kind of stuff. He also confirmed that he wanted to look at some provisions of the NFPA. I mentioned that NFPA 1127 covered this subject matter. I don't think he wanted any additional information from me, so I did not push. He did say he would get back to me in the next day or so. So I still have my fingers crossed. Dan > OK, here is a quick update. I'm still not sure whether I can get > local approval. > > I did have a telephone discussion with the local fire official ... > He did say he would get back to me in the next day or so. Dan, the fire official where I live in NJ has dealt with at least two of us so far, with no issue. I store in my detached garage, so my situation is a bit different than yours. But if you think it would help if your fire official talked with his counterpart here, contact me off-list. SignatureSteve Humphrey (replace "spambait" with "merlinus" to respond directly to me) OK, I'll send you an e-mail. It can't hurt to have a back up plan. Thanks, Dan > > OK, here is a quick update. I'm still not sure whether I can get > > local approval. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >is a bit different than yours. But if you think it would help if your >fire official talked with his counterpart here, contact me off-list. Get the MSDS and DOT documents for the engines/reloads to take to the fire marshal. When I first talked to the local fire marshal, he went ballistic. When he saw the rating, he told me that state and local law did not even cover them (class C). My local building code requires a 1 hour wall, but only a 20 minute door between the house and garage and does not require UL listed closers. ATF requires a 1 hour door and your metal door may well have that rating. It is printed on a label on the edge of the hinge side. ATF also requires a UL listed closer (which can be gotten at Home Depot). Good Luck, Larry > closers. ATF requires a 1 hour door and your metal door may well have > that rating. It is printed on a label on the edge of the hinge side. > ATF also requires a UL listed closer (which can be gotten at Home > Depot). Where does it say any of that? Perhaps your local agent is making up their own rules. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! OK, I did not receive a call from the local fire official today, maybe tomorrow. I realize that I just started on this whole permit thing. This is going to be a long haul. Let's assume that I am unable to get approval for an indoor magazine in my attached garage. Could I put my Type 4 indoor magazine in an outdoor shed ? I was planning on building a small storage shed (perhaps 10 x 10) for my tractor and other yard related stuff. My housing covenants state that the shed must be wood with a shingle roof. So I cannot build a metal shed or anything like that. This shed is not going to meet the orange book table of distances. For example it will be about 15 feet from the property line and about 20 feet from the house. I could theoretically have a slab poured for the foundation. I'm not sure whether I could do anything about making the shed fireproof. I guess I could be sheetrock the walls and ceiling. Also, the tractor is going to be in there. I could store the gas cans in the garage but there is going to be some gasoline in the shed. I'm just trying to come up with a plan. Any comments would be appreciated. Dan I've heard of plywood sheds qualifying for "indoor" storage. Fire rating is only a concern between the storage area and living areas. Your Fire Department might not agree to a shed 15 feet from the property line. My Fire Department wanted it to be 25 feet away from the property line. Somewhere in NFPA regs it says 25 feet away from open flames and smoking - I can't control what happens on the other side of the property line. My FD preferred garage storage. So I use the shed to hold the junk that used to be in the garage! Actually a better solution for me. I do have to use a separate magazine for ignitors which is a PITA. Ironically I can store my Hypertek M reload anywhere in the house. A Pro38 G79 reload has to go in the Type 4 magazine. > Let's assume that I am unable to get approval for an indoor magazine > in my attached garage. Could I put my Type 4 indoor magazine in an [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Dan Still no word from the fire marshal. I kinda figured the shed may not work. If storage in the attached garage is not possible, I'll ask the fire marshal about using an indoor magazine in a shed. I'll have to think about the whole hybrid thing. Dan >I've heard of plywood sheds qualifying for "indoor" storage. Fire >rating is only a concern between the storage area and living areas. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> >> Dan > Still no word from the fire marshal. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dan Or.......... Hope to high heaven some relief is obtained from the lawsuit and we are left alone. I find it absolutely ludicrous to require all this bullcrap to allow one to keep a few high powered loads. How many K or greater loads can one afford to launch in a season? There are most likely people storing large numbers of the smaller so-called legal composite and BP motors (G and below) in their homes with no problems and nobody knows about it! This is because the majority of us are cautious and careful and APCP is actually tougher to ignite than BP. HPR as a hobby is going to whither significantly unless judicial relief is obtained. Rocketry as a whole will revert back to a kids' hobby with only the low powered commercially available engines. AKS > HPR as a hobby is going to whither significantly unless judicial > relief is obtained. Rocketry as a whole will revert back to a kids' > hobby with only the low powered commercially available engines. This is the desired outcome the federal agencies are seeking. .... > Let's assume that I am unable to get approval for an indoor magazine > in my attached garage. Could I put my Type 4 indoor magazine in an > outdoor shed ? .. Indoor mags in sheds are indoor storage, so no distance requirements, etc.. no need for metal sheds, those specs are for outdoor mags. OK, I touched based with the fire marshal today. We had a fairly lengthy conversation on this whole issue. He has not made a determination yet. It is pretty clear that the guy is working on the issue. He is trying to look at the facts and the regulations and make a rational decision. I still have my fingers crossed. I have identified yet another potential issue. My garage has typical garage doors, but it also has a regular door to the outside (a service door). The service door has glass in it, therefore I can all but guarantee it is not fire rated. Since the garage is side entry, it also has two windows that face the street. So my question is this. If I have one-hour rated garage walls, and good fire-rated door with self closing hinges between the house and the garage is that enough? Will I have to replace the service door with a fire rated door? Will I have to remove the windows ? (this would not be allowed by the housing association). Dan If you have 5/8 fire rated sheetrock then you have 45min walls (someone correct me if I am wrong). In any event it does not matter you are getting a variance anyways. The service door is to the outside. Fire ratings only apply to barriers to the living space. > OK, I touched based with the fire marshal today. We had a fairly > lengthy conversation on this whole issue. He has not made a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Dan Correcting myself, 5/8 gives an hour fire rating.... > If you have 5/8 fire rated sheetrock then you have 45min walls (someone > correct me if I am wrong). [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > > Dan A 2x4 stud wall with 5/8" fire rated sheetrock on both sides is a 1 hour wall. There are other ways to get the 1 hour rating, but this is the most common. Larry > If you have 5/8 fire rated sheetrock then you have 45min walls (someone > correct me if I am wrong). > OK, I touched based with the fire marshal today. We had a fairly > lengthy conversation on this whole issue. He has not made a > determination yet. It is pretty clear that the guy is working on the > issue. He is trying to look at the facts and the regulations and make > a rational decision. I still have my fingers crossed. In the mean time, what has your insurance agent said about your home policy with an explosives magazine in the garage? OK, here is an update with some good news. I spoke to the local fire marshal again today. He is OK with indoor storage of rocket motors in my attached garage using a commercial Type-4 indoor storage magazine. So, my storage plan is OK from a state and local standpoint. I explained that I need write a letter to the ATF (a certification letter) that states my storage plan complies with state and local laws. I also have to provide proof that a copy of the certification letter was delivered to my local fire official. So I told him I would send him a copy of the letter and the attachments via certified mail. He said he was going to send me a letter confirming my storage plan is OK, so I should be in good shape. My magazines are on order and should be here in the next two weeks. Once I get the magazines, I will complete the application and send it in. I think I'm in good shape for compliance with the ATF rules. Again, I have my fingers crossed. Thanks for all the helpful comments. I'm sure I will post an update if anything new or exciting happens. Dan >OK, here is an update with some good news. I spoke to the local fire >marshal again today. He is OK with indoor storage of rocket motors in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Dan Dan, If you haven't sent the LEUP application in, don't bother waiting. ATF takes forever to process it and they are likely to contact the Fire Marshall even though you have a letter. Phil |
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