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Model Forum / General / Rockets / September 200610/10/06: A day that will live in infamy?
Has anybody noticed that on 10/10/06 the 62.5g propellant limit goes into effect? Which basically means I guess, that anybody possessing or storing or selling a propellant grain that in excess of 62.5g will require a LEUP? Assuming you fall into the above category, what are your plans to get into compliance. Will the major online retailers require PROOF of LEUP before selling you an HIJ motor? what about at NAR/TRA HPR sport launches? Will PROOF of LEUP be required for flights? What is the legal liability for a NAR section/TRA Prefecture if they allow people to fly with no leup? Is that conspriracy? is that facilitating? Will the ATF get "customer lists" and start knocking on doors ? or at least sending a nasty letter? terry dean nar 16158  Signature"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP" I am moving to Indiana on 150 acres we own there. I am building a house right in the middle of the remote property. I will build a storage building the proper distance from my home and I will then get a LEUP hopefully by June of next year. Talk about extreme measures!?! -Tim > Has anybody noticed that on 10/10/06 the 62.5g propellant limit goes into > effect? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > terry dean > nar 16158 >I am moving to Indiana on 150 acres we own there. I am building a house >right in the middle of the remote property. I will build a storage [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >-Tim Have fun shoveling the driveway. 8-) Phil > >I am moving to Indiana on 150 acres we own there. I am building a house > >right in the middle of the remote property. I will build a storage [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Phil I know, the drive is about a 3/4 mile long. Worse yet in building the driveway (road), I had to build a bridge to get over a creek that runs through the property. And finally, worse yet [worsest :-)], my last two places of residence were California and Texas so, even though I'm originally from Indiana, I forgot how to shovel snow. -Tim >> >I am moving to Indiana on 150 acres we own there. I am building a house >> >right in the middle of the remote property. I will build a storage [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > -Tim I wouldn't worry about the snow too much. Depending on what part of the state your talking about, we really don't get all that much snow anymore. More than Texas or California, but not as much as I remember as a kid. I used to live in the northern part that got lake effect snow and that could be bad at times, now I live in the middle of the state and I only used the snow thrower once last year. What part are you building in? > I wouldn't worry about the snow too much. Depending on what part of the > state your talking about, we really don't get all that much snow anymore. > More than Texas or California, but not as much as I remember as a kid. I > used to live in the northern part that got lake effect snow and that could > be bad at times, now I live in the middle of the state and I only used the > snow thrower once last year. What part are you building in? West-Central Indiana. A small town called Cayuga. I'm in Lafayette. >> I wouldn't worry about the snow too much. Depending on what part of the >> state your talking about, we really don't get all that much snow [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > West-Central Indiana. A small town called Cayuga. If you build a storage building and put your ATF approved storage box inside it then it's considered "indoor" storage and there are no distance requirements. The 75' rule for a Type IV box does not apply. . . . >I am moving to Indiana on 150 acres we own there. I am building a house > right in the middle of the remote property. I will build a storage [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> terry dean >> nar 16158 Chad, others: Just as a side thought, do I have to live on the site or do I just have to own the property and have a storage building of proper design? (Assume also that I have an "in state" mailing address while I am building) -Tim > If you build a storage building and put your ATF approved storage box inside > it then it's considered "indoor" storage and there are no distance [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >> terry dean > >> nar 16158 did we not have many months of warning about this, with the advice to "get legal" while you continue to support the legal process and watch how that works out. Did anyone ever say to ignore this and not to "get legal"?? Why are you so very, very surprised? Or is it just oh, so much fun to post alarming messages expressing total surprise and panic in as many forums as possible? If you knew about this for months, you could have calmly posted a courtesy "Reminder" message to newbies and those who skip many messages. My advice: Read the information that has been posted by NAR and Tripoli and get legal. This is like "Crazy Cabbie" being surprised when he is arrested for tax evasion after announcing on the radio he did not pay his taxes. And, in case you missed it, don't eat raw spinach. -Fred "everybody calm down" Shecter NAR 20117 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZshreadvector Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ > Has anybody noticed that on 10/10/06 the 62.5g propellant limit goes into effect? > Which basically means I guess, that anybody possessing or storing or selling a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > terry dean > nar 16158 > My advice: Read the information that has been posted by NAR and > Tripoli and get legal. Everyone who does not already have a LEUP should apply for one. Preferably all on the same day! Imagine if a couple thousand people submitted applications, via registered mail of course, at the same time. In harmony. (back to the group W bench for you) Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ > > My advice: Read the information that has been posted by NAR and > > Tripoli and get legal. > > Everyone who does not already have a LEUP should apply for one. > Preferably all on the same day! Imagine if a couple thousand people > submitted applications, via registered mail of course, at the same time. > In harmony. > > (back to the group W bench for you) Is that where they send you if you may not be moral enough to store low explosives after commitin' yer crime? Kid, have you rehabilitated yerself? Bill Sullivan Just as an aside, my Dear Wife and I will be seeing Arlo and some of his kids perform at the Music Pier in Ocean City NJ on Oct 28. It's a 34th Anniversary celebration for us. I had to promise not to mention rockets once while we were there. > My advice: Read the information that has been posted by NAR and Tripoli > and get legal. Get serious Phred. The JBGTs have been illegally enforcing an non existant law for years. We've been in court sueing them over this matter. Over 3 years ago they started the process to make this non existant law real. We had no clue when or if it would take effect. Now we get 60 days notice. Any one care to post how long it currently takes to get a LEUP fromt he time you get the application form, until you get the little pink card? The law says 90 days, but it took over 6 months for my RENEWAL. I know one person who took over 9 months to get his LEUP BEFORE 9/11. What about the folks who can't get an LEUP and storage because of where they live. Do YOU have one in LA? I was able to squeak by because I'm in an unincorporated area, but if I were on the other side of the line, I doubt I'd be able to get one at all. I doubt our members in any big city will ever get an LEUP and storage. And what about the dealers that stock "easy access" motors, and have for years, but don't have LEDPs. There's a lot of folks out there that don't want the hassles of dealing with a bunch of JBGTs, so they never carried anything thye needed a permit for. What are they supposed to do with thousands of dollars of inventory in the next month. Have a big blow-out sale? Return it all to Aerotech for a refund? Toss it in the nearby water supply where no one will ever find it? Terry is dead on correct. We need to hear something from our legal team. NOW. And if on 9/26 the judge doesnt' rule in our favor, the legal team needs to have a request for an injunction or stay in hand until the judge does rule. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! Snip for Brevity's sake Go Bob, Go! Great explanation if I ever heard one. > Snip for Brevity's sake > > Go Bob, Go! > > Great explanation if I ever heard one. Yeah not bad but maybe it should have been sent to the two org's leaders though. Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 > Terry is dead on correct. We need to hear something from our legal team. > NOW. And if on 9/26 the judge doesnt' rule in our favor, the legal team > needs to have a request for an injunction or stay in hand until the judge > does rule. 9/26? I thought the next hearing was 10/17. Apparently you don't read all the r.m.r. messages. None of this matters to members of one intergalactic rocketry org.: the Starlords. Join them and ignore all laws and permit requirements. ;) Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ >> My advice: Read the information that has been posted by NAR and Tripoli >> and get legal. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > needs to have a request for an injunction or stay in hand until the judge > does rule. First of all we're not Intergalactic, as I've never gotten anything from anyone not of this world. We are International as we have members in many places other than just the USA. Second, We are just MODEL Rocketeers, all of our events in the Gold Book are for Model Rockets. We have a member down in Fla. that holds a model rocket building class for a school where there are a lot of crack kids and they not only build the birds out of recyclered hosehold goods and parts, but they then fly the birds that same day. www.starlords.org SignatureThe Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond Telescope Buyers FAQ http://home.inreach.com/starlord Sidewalk Astronomy www.sidewalkastronomy.info The Church of Eternity http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html > Apparently you don't read all the r.m.r. messages. > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> needs to have a request for an injunction or stay in hand until the judge >> does rule. > Second, We are just MODEL Rocketeers, all of our events in the Gold Book are > for Model Rockets. We have a member down in Fla. that holds a model rocket > building class for a school where there are a lot of crack kids and they not > only build the birds out of recyclered hosehold goods and parts, but they > then fly the birds that same day. What does a 'crack' kid's recycled households goods consist of? Half-used brillo pads? Empty Arm & Hammer boxes? Instead of tracking chalk they use baking soda. ;-) SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com You are cracking me up. And notice that since they just fly Model Rockets, they can ignore all Model Rocket laws and regulations (State Fire Regulations requiring permits, FAA notification, etc.). Shread Vector NRA #1 Paramount Leader Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ >> Second, We are just MODEL Rocketeers, all of our events in the Gold Book are for Model >> Rockets. We have a member down in Fla. that holds a model rocket building class for a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What does a 'crack' kid's recycled households goods consist of? Half-used brillo pads? > Empty Arm & Hammer boxes? Instead of tracking chalk they use baking soda. ;-) I got news for you, when I moved to Rosamond, the first thing I did was call the county seat up in Bakersfield and asked them what kind of rules they had for the flying of Model Rockets. The answer? ZERO rules, as it's all desert and and they said I could fly what ever I wanted. They even allow airal fireworks to be sold and launched. I've been flying my birds in the field next door until a house was built there, now I go out past 150th ST West to do any flying and I've had cops watch me fly, at the last launch I did a cop came over and ended up flying one himself. And to add to that, I am working with the local group that's in charge of parks and an Aero Park is being planed along with other parks which the Start of Calif. will be paying for. It's to bad you didn't go to the launch they held up at the Mojave Spaceport, not only a lot of estes birds, but one company flew a totaly all metal rocket and the local groverment man was the one who allowed it. It's nice living in an area where we have true freedom and not all the rules of L.A./Orange. SignatureThe Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond Telescope Buyers FAQ http://home.inreach.com/starlord Sidewalk Astronomy www.sidewalkastronomy.info The Church of Eternity http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html > You are cracking me up. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> brillo pads? Empty Arm & Hammer boxes? Instead of tracking chalk they >> use baking soda. ;-) > It's nice living in an area where we have true freedom and not all the rules > of L.A./Orange. I think some folks just can't stand the thought that someone, somewhere, might be "getting away" with something that they themselves can't or won't do. Like the self-righteous clods who go out of their way to try to prevent other drivers from exceeding the speed limit. b Ya, The SIAR doesn't say any permits are not needed, if the rocketeer lives where they are, then they get them, here in KERN county they don't care and as such don't have the hardcore rules that L.A. has, and what's funny, I'm just about 1/4 to 1/2 a mile above the LA/KERN county line/ Up here we like to think we've got it better off, when I talked to the folks up in Bakersfield, they asked what the field was next door, it's basicy desert, they say to fly whatever I want. Os, for the last 8.5 years I've flown my birds on land which the trailer park owns and never had any trouble at all, even my night launchs have gone off good. I know one guy who flys his girds in the fields across the street from Willow Springs Race Track and has never been bothered by anyone at all. So I'm very happy to live in KERN, oh ya, I've had firemen stop at the corner where I have my scope set up for sidewalk astronomy duing the fireworks time and all they do is watch the fireworks rockets flying up from near by homes. And I get to see what's flown around Edwards too. Oh ya, that launch they had at Mojave Spaceport, in last weeks paper, they are looking at making it bigger and have more school kids from Kern and maybe even L.A.county come up and take part in it and those are FLOWN ON THE SPACEPORT itself. SignatureThe Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond Telescope Buyers FAQ http://home.inreach.com/starlord Sidewalk Astronomy www.sidewalkastronomy.info The Church of Eternity http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html >> It's nice living in an area where we have true freedom and not all the >> rules [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > b > You are cracking me up. > > And notice that since they just fly Model Rockets, they can ignore all > Model Rocket laws and regulations (State Fire Regulations requiring > permits, FAA notification, etc.). We don't need no stinking laws and regulations. We got crack. SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com > We don't need no stinking laws and regulations. We got crack. Yea, and if we could summarily execute every dealer and publicly flog every user, that problem would go away.. >> You are cracking me up. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > We don't need no stinking laws and regulations. We got crack. You're not a plumber are You? > You're not a plumber are You? No, but I still try to keep my pipes cleaned. ;-) SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com >> You're not a plumber are You? > > No, but I still try to keep my pipes cleaned. ;-) Sorry, it's just that I've seen a lot of plumbers with crack. Paper towel roll centers, stuff like that and he does a find job of doing it too and almost no cost to the school and working with kids who can't help being that way, it's not easy, but he'd done it for at lest 3 or 4 years. How offen have YOU gone out had helped a class of kids who because their mothers where crask addicts can't sit still very long? At lest he's helpping out the class. SignatureThe Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond Telescope Buyers FAQ http://home.inreach.com/starlord Sidewalk Astronomy www.sidewalkastronomy.info The Church of Eternity http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html > What does a 'crack' kid's recycled households goods consist of? Half-used > brillo pads? Empty Arm & Hammer boxes? Instead of tracking chalk they > use baking soda. ;-) > Paper towel roll centers, stuff like that and he does a find job of doing it > too and almost no cost to the school and working with kids who can't help [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mothers where crask addicts can't sit still very long? At lest he's helpping > out the class. Well, bully for him. I guess we know who the IAR's dealer is now... SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com The IAR is dead and gone. SignatureThe Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond Telescope Buyers FAQ http://home.inreach.com/starlord Sidewalk Astronomy www.sidewalkastronomy.info The Church of Eternity http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html I guess we know who the IAR's dealer is now... > The IAR is dead and gone. As is the 62.5 gm per grain exception (on 10/6) Why, oh why does anyone think would get better for the hobby.. The original lawsuit was pre-9/11, and the world has changed since then... > Apparently you don't read all the r.m.r. messages. > > None of this matters to members of one intergalactic rocketry org.: the > Starlords. > > Join them and ignore all laws and permit requirements. IAR -- we don't need no stinking permits. SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com That's funny, no IAR web sites, no mailing list, it died like a rocket without a chute. SignatureThe Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond Telescope Buyers FAQ http://home.inreach.com/starlord Sidewalk Astronomy www.sidewalkastronomy.info The Church of Eternity http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html >> Apparently you don't read all the r.m.r. messages. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > IAR -- we don't need no stinking permits. > Terry is dead on correct. We need to hear something from our legal team. > NOW. And if on 9/26 the judge doesnt' rule in our favor, the legal team > needs to have a request for an injunction or stay in hand until the judge > does rule. We DO need to hear from the national bodies on this but unfortunately any communication to them is no less than them communicating straight with the defendant in the case. To do so would/could give away the competitive edge they need to maintain in the case. SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com > what about at NAR/TRA HPR sport launches? Will PROOF of LEUP be required > for flights? > What is the legal liability for a NAR section/TRA Prefecture if they > allow people to fly with no leup? > Is that conspriracy? is that facilitating? Don't forget the need to house those motors or reloads in approved day boxes while on the launch site... SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com > Don't forget the need to house those motors or reloads in approved day > boxes while on the launch site... You don't need a day box for low explosives, only high. Furthermore, 55.205 Movement of explosive materials. All explosive materials must be kept in locked magazines meeting the standards in this subpart unless they are: (a) In the process of manufacture; (b) Being physically handled in the operating process of a licensee or user; (c) Being used; or (d) Being transported to a place of storage or use by a licensee or permittee or by a person who has lawfully acquired explosive materials under § 55.106. So as long as you are transporting them to be used or using them, they do not need to be in the magazine. > > what about at NAR/TRA HPR sport launches? Will PROOF of LEUP be required > > for flights? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Don't forget the need to house those motors or reloads in approved day > boxes while on the launch site... A day box is not required for any low explosives while removed from the magazine and in use. However, low explosives must be placed in an approved magazine when not attended to or no longer in use. Go to the Orange Book and you will see; a day box is used for containment of high explosives while removed from a magazine and must be attended at all times until used or placed in/returned to an approved high explosive magazine. If you all can hold on for a couple hours, I'll try to give you all page and paragraph from the Orange Book. Right now I got to hit the road; to attend a MDRA BOD meeting, but first I will have to fight with the Washington DC Beltway..GRrrrrrr.. Fred > > > what about at NAR/TRA HPR sport launches? Will PROOF of LEUP be required > > > for flights? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Fred Never mind, Alex has already provided the reference.. (:-) >Has anybody noticed that on 10/10/06 the 62.5g propellant limit goes into >effect? Thats the effective date for NPRM 968, correct? The 26.5g propellant limit *exemption* goes into effect. This changes nothing for motors larger than 62.5 grams. The status of those varies depending on who you ask. wow, he signed his real name. Glen Overby > Has anybody noticed that on 10/10/06 the 62.5g propellant limit goes > into effect? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Assuming you fall into the above category, what are your plans to get > into compliance. I expect that many/all will simply go on doing what they have been doing. But they will not be able to buy anything else without a user permit (there is no such thing as an LEUP) so the "problem" will gradually vanish. > Will the major online retailers require PROOF of LEUP before selling you > an HIJ motor? They are required to have a signed copy of your permit and a statement of intended use. 27 CFR 555.103 > what about at NAR/TRA HPR sport launches? Will PROOF of LEUP be required > for flights? Why should it be required? They haven't required it in the past nor have they required that you prove that you signed a form 5400.? which was required for purchase by non-permittees prior to 2003. It is the ATF's job to enforce the ATF's regulations, not the NAR, TRA, you, or me. Hell, if an ATF agent approached you at a launch and asked/demanded to see your permit, you could tell them to piss off. (Best to be polite at first.) There is nothing in the explosives law, regulations, or in the law describing the powers of ATF agents (18 USC 3051) that says they can demand to see a permit or that you have to produce it on demand. The only requirement for display of a permit is that it be displayed at the licensed premises. > What is the legal liability for a NAR section/TRA Prefecture if they > allow people to fly with no leup? Why should there be any? Are you also going to have the NAR/TRA verify that you have liability insurance for the car you drove to the launch? A drivers license? Where will you stop? > Is that conspriracy? is that facilitating? > > Will the ATF get "customer lists" and start knocking on doors ? or at > least sending a nasty letter? The black helicopters will be right behind them. :-) > terry dean > nar 16158 SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ Q. Where am I? A. You can't get there from here. >> Has anybody noticed that on 10/10/06 the 62.5g propellant limit goes >> into effect? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > permit (there is no such thing as an LEUP) so the "problem" will > gradually vanish. OK, so now you've jogged my memory, and I've got some further questions (especially since you seem to be the 'guru' of this subject). I just went to the ATF website, and downloaded what APPEARED to be the form to request a permit. You indicate (and I seem to recall some discussion about) the fact that there is not a LEUP anymore -- but the form appears to reference a LEUP. What, exactly, is one supposed to apply for these days? If one isn't supposed to get a LEUP, does that mean one has to conform to some HIGHER standard, such as for HE? What additional requirements are there? I'm in California, and it appears that I would need to get a Cal Pyro 3 license before getting the LEUP (or equivalent). It also appears that another early step is to get local AHJ approval for storage. The permit information for BATFE says to allow 90 days, but doesn't say what happens if more than 90 days passes before they approve it. There is also reference to a fingerprint card -- is this available/done by my local police, or is there a 'special' fingerprint card that is needed by BATFE? I'm going to attempt the process, and for the record, I do not currently possess any motors that I'm not allowed to have, but have recently acquired a property that WILL work for storage, so I figure this is as good a time as any to go through the process... Any words of advice are appreciated... David Erbas-White >>> Has anybody noticed that on 10/10/06 the 62.5g propellant limit goes >>> into effect? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > OK, so now you've jogged my memory, and I've got some further questions > (especially since you seem to be the 'guru' of this subject). I am not a guru, but I do know more about it than I really care to. :-) I used to be fairly ignorant about the regulations. But one day in 2003 I did my normal if fairly infrequent search of the Federal Regiater for postings by the ATF. I happened to do this the day NPRM 968 was published. As a result I now subscribe to the Federal Register daily table of contents and have read far more than I ever wanted to. > I just went to the ATF website, and downloaded what APPEARED to be the > form to request a permit. You indicate (and I seem to recall some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mean one has to conform to some HIGHER standard, such as for HE? What > additional requirements are there? The ATF is being its usual abysmally slow self. While this change took effect last year, they haven't updated the forms. Some information including links to ATF stuff is at http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/regulation/marking.html Also read the last Explosives Newsletter, where it says: "Licensees and permittees are currently required to identify the class of explosive materials involved in their business or operations (e.g., black powder to dynamite) on their applications, renewals, or amended applications. While ATF will continue to obtain this information during the application process, as of July 26, 2005, the information will no longer be used to designate licenses or permits by “class” of explosive materials. Licensees or permittees will receive a Manufacturer of Explosives License Importer of Explosives License, Dealer of Explosives License, User of Explosives Permit, or a Limited Permit, without the designation of High, Low, Blasting Agents, etc. The final rule on this change can be found in the Federal Register, Volume 70, Number 102, Docket Number ATF 5F. The reason for this change is to provide greater flexibility to the explosives industry in terms of the classes of explosive materials involved in their businesses." I assume that this means you should check the type 34, User of Low Explosives, box. The permit application and renewal forms are currently under review by the OMB. Did the ATF make any changes? Unlikely, since the OMB web page says: "Extension without change of a currently approved collection". I tried to make a comment on the renewal form but my requests for a copy of the form, submitted in accordance with the directions in the Federal Register notice, went unanswered. So I sent in a comment anyway noting this fact. > I'm in California, and it appears that I would need to get a Cal Pyro 3 > license before getting the LEUP (or equivalent). It also appears that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > local police, or is there a 'special' fingerprint card that is needed by > BATFE? The law, 18 USC 843(c), requires that the ATF take action within 90 days of receiving the application. Alas, there are no penalties if they fail. But you can try what I did which is a letter to a congressman/senator. My letter to Senator Cornyn stirred things up nicely as they seemed to be falling over themselves trying to get it done. http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/regulation/renewal.html The ATF requires a specific fingerprint card but you are on your own as far as getting it completed. I did it at my local police office for a nominal fee. It appears that so many background checks are required these days that it is quite an operation. Here is what the ATF web site says in the Safe Explosives Act page about applications: "Effective immediately, please be advised that in order to apply for a Federal explosives license/permit (FEL), you MUST contact the National Explosives Licensing Center (NELC) at (404) 417-2750." > I'm going to attempt the process, and for the record, I do not currently > possess any motors that I'm not allowed to have, but have recently > acquired a property that WILL work for storage, so I figure this is as > good a time as any to go through the process... > > Any words of advice are appreciated... If the ATF is still using the questionnaire that they used during my renewal, tell them you will not go along with an unapproved information collection. They ATF is required by law to get all information collections approved by the OMB, display the OMB number on the form, prohibited from using an unapproved collection, and prohibited from taking adverse action if you refuse to go along with an unapproved collection. > David Erbas-White SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ Q. Where am I? A. You can't get there from here. > It is the ATF's job to enforce the ATF's regulations, not the NAR, TRA, > you, or me. There was at least one national event where one board member required the organizers to enforce BATF regulation. You had to show your LEUP to use any regulated materials. Sieg Heil! SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! |
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