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Model Forum / General / Rockets / November 2006[Planet News] NAR/TRA Joint Statement on BATFE Issues, dated October 9, 2006
This message will report on the BATFE’s Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) on the definition of propellant actuated devices (PADS)and our October 17 hearing in US District Court. Notice of Proposed Rulemaking On August 11, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) published in the Federal Register a proposed rule to state that hobby rocket motors are not propellant actuated devices (PADS). If accepted as a final rule after public notice and comment, HPR rocket motors would be subject to all applicable licensing and controls under Federal explosives law, the legally promulgated regulations, and ATF policy rulings. You can download the full text of the proposed rule, including information telling you where to file your comments at http://tinyurl.com/gejpp IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, BOTH FOR THIS PROPOSED RULE, AND FOR OUR ONGOING LITIGATION EFFORT THAT ALL MEMBERS COMMENT OPPOSING THIS NPRM. We have reviewed the NPRM with counsel and offer the following suggestions for making responses: 1. Airbag manufacturers have been treated differently re: a PADS determination. In their June 1997, the ATF states that airbag manufacturers must have an explosive manufacturing license, yet state in the NPRM that airbags are PADS. 2. There are no clear technical standards for previous PADS classifications listed in the NPRM. 3. Congress did not specify that mechanism, metal work or inclusion in, exclusion from or stand alone was a requirement for PADS. 4. ATF has not established a clear process for application, review, adjudication and appeal for parties seeking a PADS definition for their devices. 5. Rocket motors, as used in practice, have parallel operation similar to other devices, listed by BATFE as PADS. Other devices function as part of a larger whole, and rely on other interacting components, just as rocket motors do. 6. ATF has previously exempted equivalent rocket motors used in aircraft safety systems from regulation. Details on these systems can be found at http://www.brsparachutes.com/default.aspx 7. The proposed regulation will have impacts per the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996, adversely affecting United States-based companies’ ability to compete abroad. Public comments are due not later than November 9, 2006, and must be delivered in writing to: James P. Ficaretta, Program Manager Room 5250 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives P.O. Box 50221 Washington, DC 20091-0221 ATTN: ATF 9P. Written comments must include your mailing address and be signed, and may be of any length. We invite members to provide us with additional suggestions, ideas and approaches, along with references to any other written material they may discover in researching their response to the NPRM. As we compile those suggestions, we’ll issue an additional message to members outlining these additional approaches. October 17, 2006 Court Hearing This hearing is one in a series of status conferences before the US District Court. As its stated purpose is for BATFE to report on progress it has made regarding its testing of APCP and reporting of those tests, counsel does not expect the Court to issue any rulings or orders based on this hearing. The most likely outcome from the hearing is for the Court to schedule both parties to submit cross motions for summary judgment on the issue of whether or not APCP functions by explosion. We would caution members against further speculation about the possible outcomes from this hearing, and will report on the hearing within a week of its conclusion. We appreciate your strong financial support for this important legal work. As we head into this critical October hearing, with our case still pending and hanging in the balance, we hope you will continue to consider donating in whatever amount you can to the Legal Defense Fund. Your support and generosity will be recognized and acknowledged, and you'll be able to say "I supported the fight for an unregulated sport rocket hobby." When we have further developments, we'll continue to report them here and in our publications. Mark Bundick, President National Association of Rocketry Ken Good, President Tripoli Rocketry Association  SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com I would also include a statement along these lines... HPR has been allowed for years and continues to promote technical innovation and growth for our countries' engineers and scientists. It has been a contributor to the talents of many of the personal resources which provide for the security of this country by encouraging participation in the science of rocketry and space. By implementing this rule we are effectively eliminating the pool of scientists who could make and keep this country safe and great. What the ATF is doing is the equivalent of removing the college campuses of our nation from the grasps of eager minds willing to support and sustain this great nation. In the end it would result in a weaker and less secure nation. The people of the united states want their country to be safe and on the cutting edge in science and technology. We are not a group of terrorist but law abiding citizens who want our nation to succeed. Please give us back our college campus of High Power Rocketry. Those are my thoughts! I work at an Aerospace company making motors for space. I would not be there if it had not been for involvement in rocketry. I work with many talented people who have had the same experience. We all know Homer and the Rocket Boys. They are famos and living evidence of what I have said. Write to the BATF all of you!!! Don't be wimps and let them take your hobby away from you! KT Snip > Write to the BATF all of you!!! Don't be wimps and let them take your > hobby away from you! > > KT --------- They already have. In the words of Bill Paxton in the movie Aliens: "Game over man, Game over". The legal battle is one sided. They have unlimited money and time. They will get everything they want sooner or later. We live in "terror everywhere" times. Rockets are an easy target. We are throwing money into the wind. HDS > They already have. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > HDS Agreed.. I stopped giving money to the legal fund right after 9/11/2001. From that point forward, it was only "pissing in the wind". The BATFE will only drag this out until NAR/TRA have nothing left in their legal funds. I really wish that TRA/NAR had spent the money on ways to find storage for the various clubs around the county, and provided guidance on LEUPS for those clubs. We'd all be sitting pretty right now..... This is an uphill battle, no doubt about it. But I disagree with the attitude of (as ex-Governor Bill Clements once said) "If it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it." This is clearly an issue of the Federal Government grabbing too much power and control over what should be (and once was) a local and state issue. It is indicative of the emerging dominance of the Executive Branch made possible by the complete abdication of leadership by the Legislative Branch. It is the Congress that holds the ultimate solution to this mess and it is the Congress that is unwilling to act. And to be clear I aim this criticism at the Federal Government as a whole, not exclusively to one political party or another. While I oppose the regulation of HPR motors I do have a LEUP to allow me to continue my hobby at the same time. At the same time I support the lawsuit and legislative attempts for long term relief. I also plan to vote against all incumbents in the next election. If every voter simply voted against the incumbent (regardless of party) and continued to do this until Congress does their job we would send a very clear message to our elected representatives that they represent US and that WE can keep voting them out of power every two years. No Incumbent Left Beyond >> The legal battle is one sided. They have unlimited money and time. >> They will get everything they want sooner or later. We live in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > guidance on LEUPS for those clubs. We'd all be sitting pretty right > now..... Ok Alex, So what is the answer? How do we solve this issue to make BOTH sides happy? Just a little bit of regulation is the same as being a little bit pregnant. If its not in the Bill of Rights, then its privilage that can be allowed/disallowed at anytime... and even the Constitution is not safe these days :( Lunar > This is an uphill battle, no doubt about it. But I disagree with the > attitude of (as ex-Governor Bill Clements once said) "If it's [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > guidance on LEUPS for those clubs. We'd all be sitting pretty right > > now..... > Ok Alex, > > So what is the answer? How do we solve this issue to make BOTH sides > happy? Just a little bit of regulation is the same as being a little > bit pregnant. My solution is to vote against incumbents and keep voting against them until our elected representatives understand that they should represent their constituents, not the government itself. As I stated, if every voter did the same the political landscape would change dramatically and quickly. Then we might have a chance in removing oppressive regulations that serve nobody except the bureaucrats that enforce them. > If its not in the Bill of Rights, then its privilage that can be > allowed/disallowed at anytime... and even the Constitution is not safe > these days :( How about "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Or even "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people". Between the 14th Amendment (which was never properly ratified) and the Interstate Commerce clause, the Federal Government has grown way beyond what it was intended to be. Snip > My solution is to vote against incumbents and keep voting against them until our elected representatives understand that they > should represent their constituents, not the government itself. As I stated, if every voter did the same the political landscape > would change dramatically and quickly. Then we might have a chance in removing oppressive regulations that serve nobody except > the bureaucrats that enforce them. ----- Just say no to drugs. It doesn't matter who's in. Whatever the outcome of the court case, look for some new laws introduced to throw all that effort into the toilet. HDS >How about "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall >not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." >Or even "The powers not delegated to the United States by the >Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the >States respectively, or to the people". What is the penalty for violating the constitution? In our case against an agency, we got a judge to agree that they had broken the lawy (the illegal rulemaking ruling). But there was no penalty of any sort. It's like running in the hallways in gradeschool, where the penalty was having to go back and walk. > and even the Constitution is not safe these days :( What Constitution? SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com Very odd. The message I'm responding to appears to have the posting date of October 17, 2006 yet today is October 14, 2006. Is the bad date set at the sender's computer or a server in the middle? Signature-Fred Shecter remove zorch two places to reply Current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZshreadvector Join the Revolution: http://www.sirius.com >> and even the Constitution is not safe these days :( > > What Constitution? > Very odd. The message I'm responding to appears to have the posting date of > October 17, 2006 yet today is October 14, 2006. > > Is the bad date set at the sender's computer or a server in the middle? I see three dates in the header. Date: 10/17/2006 03:51 PM NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:51:13 -0500 X-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:51:14 PDT So the only date that is messed up is the one supplied by the posters computer. SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ > Very odd. The message I'm responding to appears to have the posting date of > October 17, 2006 yet today is October 14, 2006. > > Is the bad date set at the sender's computer or a server in the middle? It was my computer. I was wondering why I was so tired...I was four days ahead! SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com Fred, Its that way because I control the verticle and the horizontal. I have taken control of your TV set, er um reality. Sit back as you are on your way too the Outer Limits! Lunar (thats me when they take you into fuzziness, and then into crystal clear sharpness) > Very odd. The message I'm responding to appears to have the posting date of > October 17, 2006 yet today is October 14, 2006. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com Snip > While I oppose the regulation of HPR motors I do have a LEUP to allow me to continue my hobby at the same time. At the same time > I support the lawsuit and legislative attempts for long term relief. ---------- I once had a leup too. But now it's a major deal...photos, fingerprints, storage. etc. We tried to pass a bill (er, rather, a different rocket group did), and it got thrown out on its ear.. Seriously people, WE WILL NOT WIN... EVER. Even if they win the court case, ATFE will have a bill introduced THE NEXT DAY... One that will have a anti-terror name that NO CONGRESS person will vote against. Jesus When the safe explosives act was passed, that was just the first of many nails in the coffin. HDS Nar I think someone once said, "it's not those who votes that matters, but those who counts the votes", the 2000 election out to say something about that... SignatureTAI FU > This is an uphill battle, no doubt about it. But I disagree with the > attitude of (as ex-Governor Bill Clements once said) "If it's inevitable, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> guidance on LEUPS for those clubs. We'd all be sitting pretty right >> now..... > I think someone once said, "it's not those who votes that matters, but those > who counts the votes", the 2000 election out to say something about that... often attributed to Stalin, but it's not clear he ever said it. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! > I think someone once said, "it's not those who votes that matters, but those > who counts the votes", the 2000 election out to say something about that... You are so correct. The idea that you should have someone "interpreting" the ballot to discern the voters intention is absurd. If the voter is too stupid to properly cast a ballot then the ballot should be discarded. I agree with the both of you! Governments through out the HISTORY of mankind eventually become so corrupt that either the citizens or foreign invaders have to over throw them! Wouldn't it be interesting if the French once again had to come to our shores to help free Americans from the Tyranny of the U.S. Federal Government? Maybe Mexico will be our saviors! Lunar > > I think someone once said, "it's not those who votes that matters, but those > > who counts the votes", the 2000 election out to say something about that... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the voter is too stupid to properly cast a ballot then the ballot should > be discarded. Its really a sham being done on members of BOTH organizations. I ran auctions selling rocketry items, and turned the proceeds over to the legal fund. Hundreds of Dollars out of the pockets of myself and others ( I had to buy the items wholesale, then sell them retail/auctions to public). Never received a thank you from NAR/TRA but I wasn't doing it for the 'thank-you', but instead I wanted to FIGHT [sic] the government... its really a lose/lose endeavor. So I just went, 'off paper' with my rocketry interests. BATF/NAT/TRA have no say in what, where, or when I fly. The end :) Lunar > > They already have. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > for the various clubs around the county, and provided guidance on LEUPS > for those clubs. We'd all be sitting pretty right now..... Its really a sham being done on members of BOTH organizations. I ran auctions selling rocketry items, and turned the proceeds over to the legal fund. Hundreds of Dollars out of the pockets of myself and others ( I had to buy the items wholesale, then sell them retail/auctions to public). Never received a thank you from NAR/TRA but I wasn't doing it for the 'thank-you', but instead I wanted to FIGHT [sic] the government... its really a lose/lose endeavor. So I just went, 'off paper' with my rocketry interests. BATF/NAT/TRA have no say in what, where, or when I fly. The end :) Lunar > > They already have. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > for the various clubs around the county, and provided guidance on LEUPS > for those clubs. We'd all be sitting pretty right now..... I just read through the BATF proposed reasoning of why our rocket motors do not fall into the exemption of PADs. I would propose that any PAD would not be a device or tool without its full assembly which makes it a device or tool. For example, a car air bag is not a PAD until it is fully assembled. The propellant cartridge in itself is just like the rocket motor. Just as a rocket motor as they state, is just a cylinder with propellant in it so it is with air bag propellant cylinders. Under this type of thinking I believe that my assembled rocket is in fact a PAD. Because until I have assembled it is not complete and therefore is still in process of manufacture. Rocketry in particular HPR is in fact a tool. It is used to perform experiments and educate students and the public in the technical arena of space technology. The statement that it is not a tool because it is not held in the hand and it is not used to manufacture or cut metal is a purposefully narrow minded definition of a tool. An Air bag system is not held in the hand and it is not used to cut metal or manufacture, yet it is defined as exempt as a PAD under their definition of a tool. There are reasons I do not hold onto my rocket when it performs its usefulness as an educational and scientific tool. However, I do hold it in my hand until it is ready to launch. A construction worker does not hold his hand over the exit end of the nail gun for obvious reasons. We in turn do not hold onto the rocket at ignition for those same reasons. Nor does one hold onto his car air bag device. In fact drivers education encourages us to keep our children and our arms and hands away from such devices. So how can they be labeled a tool which one holds onto. An HPR is a tool. It is used to educate, experiment and loft experimental electronics and other scientific equipment into high altitudes for the purpose of gaining knowledge which in turn builds this nations scientists and make it a safer place. Without our scientists, who were built by rocketry, this nation would be a third world country and our security would be the same as a third world country. So to make a statement as un educated as quoting from Webster who lived long ago before the space age about the definition of a tool is as foolish as saying that a book is not a tool. In fact what they have done is to take a bunch of definitions and add them together to create the definition they were looking for and then state it as if the whole definition had been in Webster's dictionary. To expand the definition of a tool, a book is a tool used by educators, students and the professional. Any reasonable man would agree with this definition. In court the notion of the reasonable man is all important. A reasonable man who knew anything about rocketry would know that a rocket is indeed a tool (and is not complete without the motor) just as much as a college book is a tool. Any reputable college would have some education based around the use of rocketry. Lets educate the BATF about what a PAD is. Apparently they have their head in the sand. KT > I just read through the BATF proposed reasoning of why our rocket motors do > not fall into the exemption of PADs. snip > Lets educate the BATF about what a PAD is. Apparently they have their head > in the sand. > > KT I agree with everything you say except for the last sentence. The ATFE does not have its collective head in the sand. Rather, it has an agenda - get HPR. It would be tempting to say that's for homeland security reasons, but since their attempts to strangle HPR began almost a decade before 9/11, such cannot be the case. And educating the ATFE is impossible. They have already demonstrated they will not, under any circumstances, listen to any reasonable or educated statement or evidence that is contrary to their intended goal. It is impossible to "educate" anyone who seeks only your destruction. Yes we should flood the ATFE offices, national and local, with responses to the withdrawl of the PAD exemption for HPR, but expect that it will have the same effects as all our responses to earlier NPRMs - absolutely none. Therefore the only way to preserve HPR is through the courts or the congress; that is, to force them to do what they otherwise would never do. I have no idea why the ATFE is out to get HPR, but they are. Does anyone have an idea?Larry Lobdell Jr. Please realize you're rehashing a debate that has been going on for a long, long time. Got my L3 back in 2000, and gave up my LEUP a few months back due to storage. I don't think hobby rocket motors are PADs. They are a propulsion system. It's not like an M motor will be used to drive a nail! > I just read through the BATF proposed reasoning of why our rocket motors do > not fall into the exemption of PADs. I would propose that any PAD would not [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > KT > Please realize you're rehashing a debate that has been going on for a > long, long time. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't think hobby rocket motors are PADs. They are a propulsion > system. It's not like an M motor will be used to drive a nail! I think I missed most of the debate to which your refer, so I'll bite. An M motor won't be used to drive a nail, but the nail cartridge in itself is useless without the gun to shoot it. Therefore the real PAD is the nail gun that uses exempt propellant cartridges. Likewise a rocket is a Propellant Actuated Device. The motor is like the propellant cartridge and it makes possible recording temperature vs. altitude and a host of other useful things. If nail gun cartridges are exempt, then rocket propellant cartridges should be exempt also because both enable a useless "tool" to perform a useful function. Larry Lobdell Jr. Do you buy you're motors so that they are fully assembled, or must you assemble the propellant charge? Must you do the same with a nail gun or the airbags in your car? What is the device that is "activated" by a motor? I believe that is the rocket. In the case of the nail gun, you got to believe that a number of gov types also regulate the nail gun itself, sans cartarage. What about air bags? Again, an "integrated usage". Don't know the law to quote, but I'll bet that if you took the propellant out and used it to "alert a driver behind you that he's tailgating", You'd probably hit some legal issues. The problem with motors, is that while there is an "intended use", it's more like a suggestion. It can be used for other stuff.. With a charge in a nail gun, you can't use it into a gun and shoot it at someone, but with a motor, you can launch it in what we consider the "normal manner", or it can be used for some "not so nice" reasons. While a rocket might be a pad, the motor itself is not. And to make the entire rocket "a pad", some of the abc orgs in the government would probably need to approve it...... (and you thought the RSO was rough...) A Motor is not a pad - the entire bird might be.... (IMHO) >> Please realize you're rehashing a debate that has been going on for a >> long, long time. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > useful function. > Larry Lobdell Jr. > With a charge in a nail gun, you can't use it into a gun and shoot it > at someone, but with a motor, you can launch it in what we consider > the "normal manner", or it can be used for some "not so nice" reasons. Are you seriously suggesting that one can't use a nail gun for a 'not so nice' reason??? David Erbas-White -> The problem with motors, is that while there is an "intended use", it's -> more like a suggestion. It can be used for other stuff.. -> With a charge in a nail gun, you can't use it into a gun and shoot it at -> someone, but with a motor, you can launch it in what we consider the -> "normal manner", or it can be used for some "not so nice" reasons. If you think a nail gun or air bag charge couldn't be used to harm some one, you seriously lack imagination. >With a charge in a nail gun, you can't use it into a gun and shoot it at >someone, but with a motor, you can launch it in what we consider the >"normal manner", or it can be used for some "not so nice" reasons. Actually, you're wrong there... By disabling the safety devices, a nail gun CAN be used to shoot nails at people. Even a pneumatic nail-gun can be used in this way - have you not seen news reports of workers getting shot with their nail-guns, because the safeties weren't operating properly...? ANY device that employs high-energy discharges to perform useful work can be turned into destructive devices. That doesn't mean we should prohibit EVERYONE from using them. > Actually, you're wrong there... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > work can be turned into destructive devices. That doesn't mean we > should prohibit EVERYONE from using them. Ban hammers. Ouch! And while we're banning things that can be dangerous when abused, it's time to get rid of DiHydrogen MonOxide. www.dhmo.org SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! >Ban hammers. Ouch! And while we're banning things that can be dangerous when >abused, it's time to get rid of DiHydrogen MonOxide. Hammers, axes, even rocks should be banned. And forget about DiHydrogen MonOxide - it's a lightweight when compared to unrefined Oxygen. After all... it's the Number-One cause of fires worldwide. > What is the device that is "activated" by a motor? I believe that is > the rocket. In the case of the nail gun, you got to believe that a > number of gov types also regulate the nail gun itself, sans cartarage. You can walk into a hardware store anywhere and buy a nail gun, the nails, and the cartridges to fire them. I've had one for almost 2 decades now. The nail gun doesn't know if it's shooting into a 2x4, a concrete block, or someone's head. And while I'm not very familiar with starter pistols, I think they use the same blank rounds as the nail guns. They are 22 shells without the bullet. > With a charge in a nail gun, you can't use it into a gun and shoot it at Well, with a bit of engineering to defeat the safeties built in, yes you could. > someone, but with a motor, you can launch it in what we consider the > "normal manner", or it can be used for some "not so nice" reasons. Which would make it a DOT issue to regulate, not a BATFE issue. The BATF is very clearly authorized to regulate only based on PRIMARY OR INTENDED USE. Not what else might be done with the product. Otherwise everything from flour to gasoline would require BATFE permits. And if the BATFE were to regulate any device that could deliver a dangerous payload, then they'd have to regulate Ryder trucks, panel vans, 767s, and UPS trucks. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! Ahh, blanks. Just ask E.G. Daily about here long dead boyfriend. Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ >> What is the device that is "activated" by a motor? I believe that is >> the rocket. In the case of the nail gun, you got to believe that a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > regulate any device that could deliver a dangerous payload, then they'd have > to regulate Ryder trucks, panel vans, 767s, and UPS trucks. >> What is the device that is "activated" by a motor? I believe that is >> the rocket. In the case of the nail gun, you got to believe that a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > same blank rounds as the nail guns. They are 22 shells without the bullet. > I went to the local Home Depot to research this. The nail gun cartridges they had (on open display of course) were 27 caliber. I think this is unique to nail guns. Remember, it is the "device" that is exempt so these nail gun cartridges should be regulated. They can't be ammunition for small arms or Home Depot would need a FFL to sell the nail guns. :-) >> With a charge in a nail gun, you can't use it into a gun and shoot it at > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > regulate any device that could deliver a dangerous payload, then they'd have > to regulate Ryder trucks, panel vans, 767s, and UPS trucks. Gasoline is specifically exempted at 27 CFR 555.141(a)(8) "Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes." SignatureDavid W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/ Just another day hard at work for the U.S. Senate: Senate convened at 9:30 a.m., and adjourned at 9:40 a.m., until 2 p.m., on Monday, September 25, 2006 The cartridges for nail guns (usually referred to as powder actuated tools)come in 22, 27 and less common 32 caliber. I have part of a box of green loads that I have used as blanks in a 22 rifle. Christopher Brian Deem NAR 12308 TRA 2256 level II >>> What is the device that is "activated" by a motor? I believe that is >>> the rocket. In the case of the nail gun, you got to believe that a [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or > distributed for their intended purposes." You have a gun? That makes you a MEAN and DANGEROUS person... shame on you for excersising your Second Ammendment Rights! Shame on you! Lunar > The cartridges for nail guns (usually referred to as powder actuated > tools)come in 22, 27 and less common 32 caliber. I have part of a box of [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or > > distributed for their intended purposes." > Gasoline is specifically exempted at 27 CFR 555.141(a)(8) > > "Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or > propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or > distributed for their intended purposes." I've found that White Lightning does wonders for my petunias. How about you guys??? <G> David Erbas-White >I've found that White Lightning does wonders for my petunias. How about >you guys??? <G> > >David Erbas-White Burnt shavings are good for killing the grass in the cracks in the sidewalk. Phil >> Gasoline is specifically exempted at 27 CFR 555.141(a)(8) >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > David Erbas-White Haven't tried the WL but I gotta tell you, Blue Thunder did wonders for my Blacked Eyed Susans :) Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 >I've found that White Lightning does wonders for my petunias. How about >you guys??? <G> That might not be a good idea. Do you want the DEA to regulate fertalizer grains bigger than 62.5 grams as "drug paraphenalia"? :-) You've come up with a fantastic idea for a way to use the AT reload casings that are now worthless to me: plug the forward closure and use them to hold flowers. I'm not sure how I'm going to plug that big hole in the front of the Pro38 casing though... > You've come up with a fantastic idea for a way to use the AT reload casings > that are now worthless to me: plug the forward closure and use them to hold > flowers. I'm not sure how I'm going to plug that big hole in the front of the > Pro38 casing though... My thought was to convert them into either a telescope or a flashlight. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! >> You've come up with a fantastic idea for a way to use the AT reload casings >> that are now worthless to me: plug the forward closure and use them to hold >> flowers. I'm not sure how I'm going to plug that big hole in the front of the >> Pro38 casing though... > > My thought was to convert them into either a telescope or a flashlight. Fancy pencil holders! >>I've found that White Lightning does wonders for my petunias. How about >>you guys??? <G> > >That might not be a good idea. Do you want the DEA to regulate fertalizer >grains bigger than 62.5 grams as "drug paraphenalia"? :-) No, it is the EPA that will swing in to action. Perclorates are a serious contaminate of ground water. Alan > I went to the local Home Depot to research this. The nail gun cartridges > they had (on open display of course) were 27 caliber. I think this is > unique to nail guns. Hmmm, I think thye come in 2 different sizes. I'll have to double check mine. is caliber just hundredths of an inch? And do you measure the OD of the cartridge not counting the rim? SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! > Please realize you're rehashing a debate that has been going on for a > long, long time. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't think hobby rocket motors are PADs. They are a propulsion > system. It's not like an M motor will be used to drive a nail! Just exactly what do you think 'propellant' (as in, Propellant Actuated Device) is used for? An 'expulsion' system? 'Propellant' is used for 'propulsion'. I don't know how it could be any clearer... David Erbas-White >> I just read through the BATF proposed reasoning of why our rocket >> motors do [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> >> KT Is there, or is there not a bit of a difference between the charge that will drive a nail into a 2x4 and an M motor? What is being propelled? and by what? In a nail gun, the charge is useless without a nail gun (approved by a number of gov agencies). What about an airbag? What would you do with it, if it wasn't in a car? Now, an M motor.. what could be done with that? Is there a specific device that it can be used in? Too many people think "pad" only implies "propellant activated" but forget the "device" part! >> Please realize you're rehashing a debate that has been going on for a >> long, long time. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > David Erbas-White > Is there, or is there not a bit of a difference between the charge > that will drive a nail into a 2x4 and an M motor? Why yes, there is. However, nothing in the regulations that I am aware of defines differences in PADs based on size of the 'P' in PAD. > What is being propelled? and by what? In a nail gun, the charge is > useless without a nail gun (approved by a number of gov agencies). The propellant is useless without a motor (and/or rocket), also approved by a number of government agencies, of the same form as for the nail gun. > What about an airbag? What would you do with it, if it wasn't in a car? From a nefarious standpoint? One could do quite a bit, just as one could with an APCP motor. My son recently watched the movie Jackass II (no, I didn't give permission, he's old enough to go on his own), and in it there was apparently some stunt where they would get folks to look at something very closely and then they would get punched through a piece of paper. Can you imagine what could be done if you used the 'punch' of an airbag to hit someone in the face? What if you added more damaging material to the airbag? What if you used the propellant charge of the airbag to make some other nefarious device? > Now, an M motor.. what could be done with that? Is there a specific > device that it can be used in? Why, yes! A rocket! What, specifically, did you have in mind other than that? > Too many people think "pad" only implies "propellant activated" but > forget the "device" part! A rocket is a device. It is a device for gaining altitude rapidly, for making wind measurements, for performing physics experiments, for taking photos/videos, for testing accelerometers, ad infinitum. Are you telling me that you don't consider a rocket a 'device'? David Erbas-White >>> Please realize you're rehashing a debate that has been going on for >>> a long, long time. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> David Erbas-White ATF is probably thinking the rocket can be used to propel explosive charge for bad purpose... you know even if it makes no sense they know they are doing their job to stop terrorists. SignatureTAI FU > ATF is probably thinking the rocket can be used to propel explosive charge > for bad purpose... you know even if it makes no sense they know they are > doing their job to stop terrorists. I'm sure that is EXACTLY what's been going on for the past decade. The problem is that the BATFE isn't chartered to regulate DELIVERY SYSTEMS. It's chartered to regulate EXPLOSIVES, of which APCP is NOT. Delivery is in the hands of the DOT. If they want to regulate devices that could be used to deliver explosives or other WMD, then they need to regulate Ryder trucks, vans, commercial aircraft, donkeys, etc, and NOT our models. Remember, the only time person or property has been damaged by HPR is when the BATFE stupidly burned up their own van while trying to unsuccessfully show that our rockets could be used to shoot at targets. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! > Remember, the only time person or property has been damaged by HPR is > when the BATFE stupidly burned up their own van while trying to > unsuccessfully show that our rockets could be used to shoot at > targets. Alleged burning. There is no proof this ever happened. Other than a friend of a friend of someone I talked to at a launch this weekend. >Remember, the only time person or property has been damaged by HPR is when >the BATFE stupidly burned up their own van while trying to unsuccessfully >show that our rockets could be used to shoot at targets. I've personally witnessed a number of property damage incidents. The most serious was a large dent in the side of a trailer. One weekend, I was almost hit by rockets twice. If I was not paying attention and didn't move I would have been hit. Brian Elfert >> Remember, the only time person or property has been damaged by HPR is when >> the BATFE stupidly burned up their own van while trying to unsuccessfully [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Brian Elfert Ask Ray Duncan about a launch pad that hit the truck behind him at Plaster Blaster a few years back. No insurance claim was filed, as the damage was about $2500, and a check was written to keep it off the books... I was there, so the details are not second hand.... It was the year of the V2 drag race, and I was at an away pad prepping a V2.... >>Remember, the only time person or property has been damaged by HPR is when >>the BATFE stupidly burned up their own van while trying to unsuccessfully [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > One weekend, I was almost hit by rockets twice. If I was not paying > attention and didn't move I would have been hit. OK, I should have added "serious". My 2001 'space' Odyssey has been hit several times. Most recent was last Sunday. Got a little yellow paint streak on the hood. The BATFE incident is the only one involving the destruction of a vehicle. Wanna bet that it shows up on their incident report as caused by HPR? SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! > The BATFE incident is the only one involving the destruction of a vehicle. > Wanna bet that it shows up on their incident report as caused by HPR? I'd take that bet. The incident never happened so how could they cite it? >Remember, the only time person or property has been damaged by HPR is when >the BATFE stupidly burned up their own van while trying to unsuccessfully >show that our rockets could be used to shoot at targets. What about the two incidents in 2004? Those incidents got Bunny to form a Safety committee which is now a standing committee. One was part of a rocket that went through the windshield and into the dash of a suburban and the other was a bonk in the head. There was an L2 certification flight (not mine) at the Cincinati NARAM that scored hits on 3 vehicles when it came down in the vendor area (the 3rd vehicle was owned by the vendor who sold the guy the motor). Sorry, Bob. >>Remember, the only time person or property has been damaged by HPR is when >>the BATFE stupidly burned up their own van while trying to unsuccessfully [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Sorry, Bob. I can vouch for one incident in which 2 vehicles damaged with one rocket. No insurance claim though. Phil > Is there, or is there not a bit of a difference between the charge that > will drive a nail into a 2x4 and an M motor? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Too many people think "pad" only implies "propellant activated" but > forget the "device" part! The device is the rocket. Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 >> Too many people think "pad" only implies "propellant activated" but >> forget the "device" part! > > The device is the rocket. If so, would only a fully assembled rocket qualify as a PAD? According to the ATF a tool has to be hand held (I'm sure THEIR tools are!). I tried to do some research into rocket propelled line throwers. Are these readily available? Do they require permits? Can you purchase spare rockets without a permit? Are they always handheld? Same question about rocket flares. They certainly aren't fireworks. Are they always handheld? >>> Too many people think "pad" only implies "propellant activated" but >>> forget the "device" part! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > question about rocket flares. They certainly aren't fireworks. Are > they always handheld? I know that the BATFE think this company has PADs; http://www.brsparachutes.com/default.aspx Toying with the idea of calling them up to see what they're using for a motor. Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 >>>> Too many people think "pad" only implies "propellant activated" but >>>> forget the "device" part! [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > TRA#5512 > IEAS#75 Just got off the phone with them. In a nutshell, they get the motors from Colorado. I didn't press too much into finding who manufactured the motors but I think it would be a safe bet that it wasn't Estes :) Wasn't Vulcan/Scott Dixon based in Colorado? Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 >Toying with the idea of calling them up to see what they're using for a >motor. It looks like an "I". See: http://www.specificimpulse.com/ Look at the PDFs under "Portfolio" for the RDS-575. It's application is "Parachute Extraction" and the Prime Contractor is BRS Incorporated, South St. Paul, MN. >> Toying with the idea of calling them up to see what they're using for a >> motor. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is "Parachute Extraction" and the Prime Contractor is BRS > Incorporated, South St. Paul, MN. I think BRS might have been a former client of AT/ISP. I just got confirmation from a TRA board member that BRS has switched over to Scott Dixon's company. Whatever that company's name is(?). I swear I have a old Vulcan H100SS somewheres.... Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 > I know that the BATFE think this company has PADs; > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > TRA#5512 > IEAS#75 Apparently this kind of system/plane was the one that hit the building in New York today... David Erbas-White >> I know that the BATFE think this company has PADs; >> >> http://www.brsparachutes.com/default.aspx >> >> Toying with the idea of calling them up to see what they're using for >> a motor. > > Apparently this kind of system/plane was the one that hit the building > in New York today... Probably staged by the ATF ;-) >>> Too many people think "pad" only implies "propellant activated" but >>> forget the "device" part! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If so, would only a fully assembled rocket qualify as a PAD? According > to the ATF a tool has to be hand held (I'm sure THEIR tools are!). Neither an air bag nor a BRS chute deployment system is hand held. Are any civilian aircraft equiped with ejection seats? Are those considered PADs? > I tried to do some research into rocket propelled line throwers. Are > Virtually the same RMS motors we use were used in Iraq to clear mine fields. SignatureBob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver! >> I tried to do some research into rocket propelled line throwers. Are > > > Virtually the same RMS motors we use were used in Iraq to clear mine fields. Non-civilian use doesn't matter. They don't need LEUPs. And how many reloads do you get (i.e how many recovered and reused casings so you get on a minefield)? Signature"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply. http://www.sirius.com/ >>> I tried to do some research into rocket propelled line throwers. Are > >> >> Virtually the same RMS motors we use were used in Iraq to clear mine fields. > > Non-civilian use doesn't matter. They don't need LEUPs. > > I tried to do some research into rocket propelled line throwers. Are > > > Virtually the same RMS motors we use were used in Iraq to clear mine fields. Hmm, wonder if the article is still there... Why yes it is: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9911/08/nasa.landmines/index.html >If so, would only a fully assembled rocket qualify as a PAD? According >to the ATF a tool has to be hand held (I'm sure THEIR tools are!). Uh, then what about BRS' rocket-deployed airplane parachutes? >> Is there, or is there not a bit of a difference between the charge >> that will drive a nail into a 2x4 and an M motor? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > TRA#5512 > IEAS#75 And the "device" could be one of Art's saucers! >>> Is there, or is there not a bit of a difference between the charge >>> that will drive a nail into a 2x4 and an M motor? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > And the "device" could be one of Art's saucers! :) Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75 <snip> > > I don't think hobby rocket motors are PADs. They are a propulsion > > system. It's not like an M motor will be used to drive a nail! > > > Just exactly what do you think 'propellant' (as in, Propellant Actuated > Device) is used for? An 'expulsion' system? We use PADS to 'splooch' ICBMs from underwater up high enough before the copperhead is fired off. 'Expulsion' is such a grotesque term... <vbg> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_missile (Fifth paragraph) Sidebar - Not sure if they use copperheads or a Firstfire in the PAD though ;-) BTW Sidebar - Here's a neat shot of what happened when they upscaled the PAD with the larger and heavier D5. http://tinyurl.com/7f83h Obviously, some engineer had thought mother nature extrapolates linearly... :-) > 'Propellant' is used for 'propulsion'. I don't know how it could be any > clearer... I guess this PAD was close enough in the propulsion chain to qualify for propulsion... > David Erbas-White <snip> > >> Lets educate the BATF about what a PAD is. Apparently they have > >> their head > >> in the sand. Think the above example will help? Just offering... Andy Ok I read it and it doesn't surprise me. Actually I predict that the GOVERNMENT will EVENTUALLY win its case. This is what happens when MOST American's sell their civil rights and self governence for FOOD STAMPS, MEDICARE, MEDICADE, SOCIAL SECURITY, ENTITLEMENTS, HOUSING, CHEESE HANDOUTS ... hahahaha YOUR government is screwing you people and YOU have no one to blame except yourselves! I don't feel sorry for the situation you find yourselves in. There is NO ONE to blame expect the [below]Average United States citizen. I am sorry. Yes I gave hundreds of dollars to the legal fund back in the late 1990s ... what a waste of my time and money. I should have just kept the money. Oh well, lets all get ready to vote for the Demicans, or is it the Republicrats? You take sides like stupid fools, but in the end, BOTH sides of the government work to screw you ... hahahahahaha! OMG, I'm a republican and I see the country's needs better than you do ... I'm a democrat and I see the country's needs better than you do ... what a F*&King joke! I'm a politician and I see MY needs better than anyone :) You people have fools for leaders, so you DESERVE foolish leadership! HAHAHAHA ... what a JOKE of a citizenry we have in America today ... what a joke :( Is there a solution? Yes, a constitutional caucus and a RESETTING of the government ... but oh no we can't have that because then I will lose my free cheese, social security, Medicare/Medicade, Food Stamps, ect.. Nah I would rather live as a citizen-slave than as a free man... citizen-slavery is easier :) Go slavery! Lunarlos calm down before they make coffee a controlled substance. > Ok I read it and it doesn't surprise me. Actually I predict that the > GOVERNMENT will EVENTUALLY win its case. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > ect.. Nah I would rather live as a citizen-slave than as a free man... > citizen-slavery is easier :) Go slavery! Liz, I am just tired of life and people. That same monkey crap day after month after year after decade after century after millinnea... the SAME human crap time and time and time and time again. Can't humans do ANYTHING different for a change??? Lunar - Wishing the mother ship would come back for me and get me off this dirtball world! > Lunarlos calm down before they make coffee a controlled substance. > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > ect.. Nah I would rather live as a citizen-slave than as a free man... > > citizen-slavery is easier :) Go slavery! Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only problem is you have to keep taking it. Phil >I am just tired of life and people. That same monkey crap day after >month after year after decade after century after millinnea... the SAME >human crap time and time and time and time again. Can't humans do >ANYTHING different for a change??? :) > Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only > problem is you have to keep taking it. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>human crap time and time and time and time again. Can't humans do >>ANYTHING different for a change??? > Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only > problem is you have to keep taking it. Zyklon B would work nicely for you. >> Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only >> problem is you have to keep taking it. > >Zyklon B would work nicely for you. Poor Steve. You know you really should get professional help. Phil >>> Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only >>> problem is you have to keep taking it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Phil Poor Phil. Don't need any help. I already know how to use Zyklon. >>>> Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only >>>> problem is you have to keep taking it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Don't need any help. I already know how to use Zyklon. I suppose you'd have to do a sneak attack because you don't have the balls to take me on face to face. Phil >>>>> Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only >>>>> problem is you have to keep taking it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Phil Poor Phil. You guys seem to know each other... just get along. Divide and conquer... see what they are doing to you guys/us? Pit Low Power against High Power. Pit Black against White. Pit Democrat against Republican. Pit Rich against Poor. Its all a grand plan and we are but MINOR players in the GAME of life. Depressing isn't it :P Lunar > >>>>> Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only > >>>>> problem is you have to keep taking it. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Poor Phil. Who is they? THe KKK? From what Steve has said to me here and offline, that seems to be the force that drives him. Phil >You guys seem to know each other... just get along. Divide and >conquer... see what they are doing to you guys/us? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >> Poor Phil. > Who is they? THe KKK? From what Steve has said to me here and > offline, that seems to be the force that drives him. And Phil is driven by lies and fantasy. Poor Phil > You guys seem to know each other... just get along. Divide and > conquer... see what they are doing to you guys/us? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > plan and we are but MINOR players in the GAME of life. Depressing > isn't it :P Group splintering is a very effective tool in keeping the broad populace off their feet. While each group is infighting, we can't see what's really going on, such as the North American Union. SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com >>>> Try Zoloft. I think it worked for Steve a few years ago. Only >>>> problem is you have to keep taking it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Don't need any help. I already know how to use Zyklon. Then why are you still here? Lunarlos, I'm sorry to hear that you are weary of life. There does not seem to be a simple answer. People are people and we haven't evolved since recorded history, we just have more toys. You can distract yourself-that's what I do. You can drug yourself with serotonin reuptake inhibitors or whatever those monkeys are putting into our brains this week. From the tenor of your note, it sounds like you should talk to someone, since being too depressed is dangerous and unproductive. Things are probably no more screwed up than they ever were. I'm sure every generation feels it's the last good one. I have to believe that even oppressive governments are temporary. > Liz, > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > ect.. Nah I would rather live as a citizen-slave than as a free man... > > > citizen-slavery is easier :) Go slavery! Liz, No no, I am fine, just bought a new house, and my income is up. Just being realistic; maybe too realistic for some. Life is a joke on us all. We experience life, and just as most of us start to figure things out, we lose our lease on life. I am VERY optimistic about my OWN personal life, present and future. I know how to LEGALLY keep my money and property from the tax-man. My health is good, full head of hair, and I have NO problems 'performing' for the wife :) No my problem is that I care FAR too much about other people... this is something I need to train myself to stop doing. Over the last few years, I have started to understand the TRUE nature of governments and that there is NO good side/part of government. Now I don't say this because I hate Bush or Clinton... no I base this on looking at THOUSANDS of years of human history. Its not that I am depressed, because my personal needs and then wants are met. I have to understand that I am tied to you via economy, via crime, via health, via taxation, vie religion, via environment, via ect.. We are only as strong as our weakest citizen; we have some VERY weak citizens. Trust me, I really need to train myself into not caring about our nation and this world. Ignorance is bliss :) Lunar > Lunarlos, > I'm sorry to hear that you are weary of life. There does not seem to [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > > > ect.. Nah I would rather live as a citizen-slave than as a free man... > > > > citizen-slavery is easier :) Go slavery! > I am just tired of life and people. That same monkey crap day after > month after year after decade after century after millinnea... the SAME [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Lunar - Wishing the mother ship would come back for me and get me off > this dirtball world! Easy there, big boy. Government surveillance of that posting would probably qualify you for psychopath/terroristic profiling. SignatureRocketry Planet — hobby rocketry news, feature articles, news archive, discussion forums, live chat, free auctions, launch calendar and the largest collection of web links anywhere! http://www.rocketryplanet.com Darrell, Its ok, I already have a FBI file and those who are in the know, realize that I am harmless ... although if I coul ride a nuke down the throats of Iran like Slim Pickins did in Dr. Strangelove, I would! :) I have zero patience for BS. I see a dumb commercial on TV, I make a mental note not to buy the product or service. I see a politician moving his or her mouth from either side of th isle, I realize that they are LYING. Even if they aren't, assuming they are makes any future hurt far more bearable. Nah, I am very harmless :) Lunar > > I am just tired of life and people. That same monkey crap day after > > month after year after decade after century after millinnea... the SAME [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com |
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