Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
ModelsRailroadsRockets
Radio Controlled
Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater Models
ModelGeeks.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Model Forum / General / Rockets / January 2007



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

What's the status of the ATF/NAR case?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
dave.harper - 26 Jan 2007 15:40 GMT
I've gone through messages for the past couple months, but haven't been
able to figure out what the current status is.  Is the ATF having to
correct the erroneous burn rate data?  What's the overall outlook?

Dave
Kurt - 26 Jan 2007 17:40 GMT
> I've gone through messages for the past couple months, but haven't been
> able to figure out what the current status is.  Is the ATF having to
> correct the erroneous burn rate data?  What's the overall outlook?
>
> Dave

Good question Dave but I don't think the hierarchy is going to release
much info as it would tip Rocketry's hand.  Better to show the judge
what idiots the ATF is in this matter and not let them be able to
prepare for it before hand.

I did see the notice in a list-serv that legally, they (ATF) were not in
a good position.

I wouldn't mind seeing an announcement to the effect that "Were on top
of this and will be ready for our day in court."

I hate to say it but I am giving blind trust to the people running the
show and if there is a negative outcome because they weren't prepared,
I'd be extremely sad.
Kurt - 26 Jan 2007 18:23 GMT
>> I've gone through messages for the past couple months, but haven't been
>> able to figure out what the current status is.  Is the ATF having to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> show and if there is a negative outcome because they weren't prepared,
> I'd be extremely sad.

Let me add I am not on officer of the NAR or Tripoli so these comments
and views are my own.  Slam me if you like but spare the NAR or Tripoli. :-)
                            Kurt
Roy Green - 26 Jan 2007 19:47 GMT
I wouldn't expect any word about the case until sometime between March 23rd
and July.

The following is from the Joint NAR/TRA statement from October:

"Assuming Judge Walton does not need to be briefed, a Count 1 ruling could
be issued any time after the March 23, 2007 filings. However, Judge Walton's
docket is extremely crowded, with over 150 motions pending in his court.
Members may also be aware that his courtroom has been assigned the trial of
former Chief of Staff to the Vice President, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, a high
visible prosecution.
We have received questions from members about the length of this process.
There is a real backlog in the Federal courts, and our case is not
fundamentally different in timing than any others pending in the DC Circuit.
We are simply part of the backlog, and there is little counsel or the courts
can do about it. "

Roy

nar12605

> I've gone through messages for the past couple months, but haven't been
> able to figure out what the current status is.  Is the ATF having to
> correct the erroneous burn rate data?  What's the overall outlook?
>
> Dave
David Schultz - 26 Jan 2007 23:20 GMT
> I've gone through messages for the past couple months, but haven't been
> able to figure out what the current status is.  Is the ATF having to
> correct the erroneous burn rate data?  What's the overall outlook?
>
> Dave

The next scheduled event is on 31 January. Plus, in case you missed it,
Judge Walton is currently in the middle of the Scooter Libby trial so he
doesn't have a lot of spare time.

Here is the scheduling order:
http://home.earthlink.net/~schultdw/regulation/Court%20order%2010-17-06.pdf

I am not sure what is due next week but I suspect that we will see cross
motions for summary judgment.

As far as I can  tell, the ATF will not get any opportunity to correct
the burn rate data. That was a filing for the administrative record and
they should have gotten it right. The ATF might try to minimize the
error in the arguments due over the next few months. Sort of a reprise
of their "inartfully drafted" argument. But then the ATF never flatly
stated any boundary between burning and deflagration.

The ATF had two chances to get the burn rate data correct. The first
opportunity was in hiring someone to do the testing that had a clue
about how solid propellant motors work. The second was when the ATF
reviewed the test report.

The choice is pretty simple: Either the ATF are experts and deliberately
lied to the court, or they are not experts and their opinion in this
instance counts for nothing.

Take your pick.

I personally view it as yet another attempt to paper over an
indefensible decision and I am quite optimistic about the outcome. But I
will still renew my permit in May because it could take a while.

Signature

David W. Schultz
"Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it..."
Philip K. Dick

tai fu - 27 Jan 2007 04:13 GMT
thats if they dont make a new law specifically banning rocketry activity,
citing terrorism as the excuse...

Signature

TAI FU

>> I've gone through messages for the past couple months, but haven't been
>> able to figure out what the current status is.  Is the ATF having to
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> indefensible decision and I am quite optimistic about the outcome. But I
> will still renew my permit in May because it could take a while.
AZ Woody - 27 Jan 2007 04:24 GMT
> thats if they dont make a new law specifically banning rocketry activity,
> citing terrorism as the excuse...

Uh, Tai...

Weren't you trying for L1 and had to leave the US due to legal issues?

Do we really want someone that has bad enough legal issues to leave the
US to have open access to HPR?

Hey, I'm not claiming anything you yourself haven't said on the forum
over the last few years...  How's those studies online at UOP going?
Kurt - 28 Jan 2007 16:04 GMT
>> I've gone through messages for the past couple months, but haven't been
>> able to figure out what the current status is.  Is the ATF having to
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> indefensible decision and I am quite optimistic about the outcome. But I
> will still renew my permit in May because it could take a while.

Woweee Dave!!!

   I hope the judge looks at it from your enlightened point of view.  Would
mean that we stand a chance of putting this behind us.  Sure the ATF could
appeal but
if we little rocket guys can have a success against the big bad ATF, looks like
a 60 minutes story in the offing.

                                    Kurt
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.