Model Forum / General / Rockets / June 2007

Jim:
You assume, IMHO, incorrectly, that there would be "accidents"... Is it
possible that the stat-of-the-art in making small micro-batches of BP motors
would be inherently dangerous and prone to accidents.

Orv Carlisle hand pressed literally thousands of his motors, and he didn't
have 1 accident!

Pyrotechs routinely press what are called "drivers" which are end-burning BP
rocket motors....without accident or incident.

I'm just saying I should be allowed to make and sell small BP rocket
motors....in small batches.

Without having to jump through the regulatory hurdles that have been put
there by our own industry representatives.

Terry Dean
NAR 16158

Yes it is.  The APCP that we use is difficult to light.  Black powder
isn't.  In fact, I wouldn't be comfortable using any kind of
electricity powered equipment with BP flying around.

Also, you should clear the motor making with ATF and DOT before you
worry about NAR.  From his first hand experience, Big Fine can tell
you why you would want to do that.  Also, ATF is on the NFPA committee
so you are unlikely go sneak this by them.

Lastly, TRA is closer to the environment that you are looking for than
NAR is.  I doubt that either will be very accommodating to your desire
to sell or trade the motors you make - especially at a commercial
launch.

Phil

On Jun 18, 6:32 pm, "Fred Shecter"
<fred.e.shec...@zorch.alum.zorch.mit.edu> wrote:

Contrary to popular belief, Black Powder is not terribly sensitive to
impact.  Think about the process of loading a musket or a black powder
pistol.  You have to compress the powder in the barrel.  But it does
ignite easily in the presence of heat and/or sparks.  IF you could
control factors such as humidity and use non-metallic non-spark-
producing tools, you could safely handle black powder.  IIRC, Orville
Carlisle used an arbor press to hand-make his motors.  As for myself,
I would just as soon pay somebody else to take the risk.

Bill Sullivan

On Jun 18, 3:32 pm, "Fred Shecter"
<fred.e.shec...@zorch.alum.zorch.mit.edu> wrote:

Yes, it certainly is.  Hobby APCP formulations are non-detonable, and,
as the need for boosted igniters shows, inherently difficult to even
light.  Black powder, on the other hand, is quite a bit easier to
light.

I own David Sleeter's book, and, after careful reading of his
suggested procedures, formulas, and safety procedures, I'm convinced
that black powder motors can be made safely by amateurs.  However, I'm
also convinced that APCP motor production is inherently quite a bit
safer than BP motor production.

It is just easier to make more-dangerous mistakes with black powder.

We've got something of a Catch-22 situation here: NAR won't consider
allowing BP motor research without numerical evidence of safety, and
there's no way to accumulate a significant statistical sample, since
neither NAR nor TRA allows research on BP motors, and most people lack
the wherewithal to conduct motor research outside of the auspices of
one of the national rocketry organizations.

I believe that the TRA Research programs have adequately demonstrated
that it is possible for amateurs to do research into APCP, nitrous
oxide hybrid, and "sugar" motor designs safely.  Therefore, I would
not object, at all, if NAR were to implement an analogous NAR Research
program, allowing amateur research into APCP, nitrous oxide hybrid,
and "sugar" motors.

I'd structure such a NAR Research program similar to the TRA Research
program: limiting it to L2 and up is a good move, as obtaining a L2
cert is a pretty decent indicator that the flyer takes rocketry
seriously, and is willing to devote some time and effort to learning
the rules (even if just to pass a multiple choice test).  Increasing
offset distances, and conducting Research launches separate from
Commercial launches, both make good sense, as Research motors may not
be as well-characterized as commercial loads, and it's better to
reduce the chance of someone being hurt if something goes wrong even
further than usual.

I'm not saying we absolutely NEED a NAR Research program; we've gotten
along without one for quite a long time, and we can continue, if need
be.  It's certainly not urgent.

But, I do think that one is desirable, as I hate seeing flyers leave
NAR to join TRA just because NAR doesn't have a Research program.
Personally, I am a member of both, as I feel that both organizations
are worthy of my support, and have something to offer me.  In fact,
I'm a member of several other amateur rocketry organizations, as well.

But, I do know that quite a few TRA members (and former NAR members)
refer to NAR launches as "weenie rocketry", due to a (somewhat
misguided) belief that NAR doesn't care as much about high-power as
TRA does.  I know of several who have left NAR and joined TRA, and I
know of quite a few more who joined TRA instead of NAR, based upon the
same perception.

NAR certainly supports high power:  I personally did my Level One,
Level Two, and Level Three certifications under the NAR HPR
certification program, and had my certifications "transferred" by
Tripoli.  I still have my entire "three-part form" in my TRA binder,
and expect to leave it there.

But, NAR doesn't support one aspect of high power rocketry -- research
-- at all.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider that stance.

- Rick "just a thought" Dickinson
  NAR #73975 L3
  TRA #10498 L3
  Pacific Rocket Society member
  Reaction Research Society member
  Amateur Rocket Society of America member

Alan:

its always good to hear from you. comments inline

Terry Dean
NAR 16158

NFPA 1125 allows for individuals to make motors for theor own personal use:
1.1.7 :
This code shall not apply to the fabrication of model rocket motors ..... by
individuals for theor own personal use.

Unfortunately NFPA 1122  disallows you to share/give away free or even trade
modle rocket motors :

1.2.2 The purpose of this code also shall be to discourage the making and
launching of homemade rockets and other rocket-like vehicles

propelled by, or intended to be propelled by, homemade rocket propulsion
devices.

1.2.3 The purpose of this code also shall be to discourage experiments with
explosive or highly energetic rocket propellants,

construction of homemade rocket-propulsion motors, and attempted launchings
or operations of these homemade rocket devices, thereby

minimizing deaths and injuries.

Chapter 5 Prohibited Activities

5.1 Prohibited Activities. The following activities shall be prohibited by
this code:

(5) Sale or transfer to the general public, not otherwise exempted in 1.1.4,
of any model rocket motor, motor reloading kit, or

component that has not been certified in accordance with NFPA 1125, Code for
the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket

Motors

(6) Making, operating, launching, flying, testing, activating, discharging,
or other experimentation with model rocket motors,
motor reloading kits, or motor components that have not been certified in
accordance with NFPA 1125, Code for the Manufacture of

Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors

 Alan I agree that FAI teams should be allowed a wider selection of motors;
Unfortunately, while NFPA 1125 allows you to make model rocket motors for
yourr own personal use, NFPA 1122 seems to take that right back away.

This is why I suggest  either a Full NAR research Program akin to the TRA's,
or just have the NAR "designate" FAI model rocketry as an officially
recognized /sanctioned NAR research program, thus allowing home made motors.

Unfortunately, again, as written, NFPA 1122 seems to preclude even the use
of amateur made motors , unless they are "certfied"... and heres wher it
gets ugly: NFPA  1122/25 both define what a "certfied" motor is: and
homemade amateur motors are not included in the definition.

And none of the above answers the BATFE requirements. Seems that even if I
make SINGLE  BP model rocket motor and sell it or barter it away as in a
trade, results in "commerce" therefore I would require a LEMP to legally
manufacture that single BP motor.

I sure would not want to be around any muslim with BP either, the USA
authorities have yur number and hopefully your never gonna get to see
the USA again except for on TV or inthe Movies....hahahahaha yea, yu
gave up Islam the day after 9/11........due to sheer fright and thught
of being aprehended or joining a jihad scared the sh.t out of  you
huh?


<<>>by the way speaking of black powder... there is a LOT of black powder
<<>>burning in Taiwan now... stupid dragon boat festival and some god/godesses
<<>>that needs babysitting... caugh...