Hydrogen peroxide & potassium permanganate as a rocket propellant ?

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Attila the Hungry - 07 Dec 2007 14:17 GMT

In "A Most Secret War" by R. V. Jones, (About England's science
Intel in WWII) there is the story of how we got the first hints
of the German V2 rocket project and the educate guesses that
English scientists were making about it. One of the early ideas
was that it was going to be propelled by Hydrogen Peroxide &
potassium permanganate.

In my passing attention to hobbyist rocketry and chemistry, I've
never heard of this combination as a propellant although I'm sure
that exciting things would happen if I mixed the two together.

I can't imagine how PP, a solid, and Peroxide, a liquid would be
handled in a rocket.

What are the characteristics of the rraction of H2O2 and potassium
permanganate?

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Smaug Ichorfang - 07 Dec 2007 18:03 GMT

> In "A Most Secret War" by R. V. Jones, (About England's science
> Intel in WWII) there is the story of how we got the first hints
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> What are the characteristics of the reaction of H2O2 and potassium
> permanganate?

The PP doesn't have to be a solid. It can be disolved in water and it will
function the same. In fact, it may boost thrust when used in a thrust
producing device such as a rocket engine. In the reaction, the PP acts as
a catalyst causing the peroxide to decompose into water. The decomposition
also produces a lot of heat, which converts the water into steam. The
water carrying the PP could also be converted into steam. Peroxide can
also be decomposed by other catalysts. Some spacecraft use it as a
monopropellant for manuvering and stationkeeping. The reaction thrusters
use a platinum screen as a catalyst.

A simple google search on "hydrogen peroxide thruster" yields this web
page:
http://www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/5

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Len Lekx - 09 Dec 2007 13:42 GMT

>was that it was going to be propelled by Hydrogen Peroxide &
>potassium permanganate.
>In my passing attention to hobbyist rocketry and chemistry, I've
>never heard of this combination as a propellant although I'm sure
>that exciting things would happen if I mixed the two together.

I've never heard of that combination being used, either. If I were
to venture I guess, I'd say that the permanganate was being used as a
catalyst to decompose the peroxide into water vapour and oxygen.

Might be interesting to experiment with... :-)

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Al Dykes - 09 Dec 2007 13:53 GMT

>>was that it was going to be propelled by Hydrogen Peroxide &
>>potassium permanganate.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Might be interesting to experiment with... :-)

I can't see moving a one ton warhead a couple hundred miles on steam.

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Eekamouse - 09 Dec 2007 15:21 GMT

> In article <02snl3dpnp8abauba7ohicuv31o5rln...@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I can't see moving a one ton warhead a couple hundred miles on steam.

His momma used to use Mr. Clean and Janitor in a Drum with a touch of
Simple Green or 409 for good measure added in..followed by Lysol
spray ...........................Freddies momma sure must have // had
one nasty pussy.no wonder Freddie is so obsessed with mom!

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Len Lekx - 09 Dec 2007 22:54 GMT

>>>was that it was going to be propelled by Hydrogen Peroxide &
>>>potassium permanganate.
>>to venture I guess, I'd say that the permanganate was being used as a
>>catalyst to decompose the peroxide into water vapour and oxygen.
>I can't see moving a one ton warhead a couple hundred miles on steam.

No - but mixing an alcohol fuel into the hot, oxygen-rich gas of
the decomposing peroxide makes a POWERFUL burn.

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Chuck Rudy - 10 Dec 2007 02:09 GMT

>>>>was that it was going to be propelled by Hydrogen Peroxide &
>>>>potassium permanganate.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> No - but mixing an alcohol fuel into the hot, oxygen-rich gas of
> the decomposing peroxide makes a POWERFUL burn.

Is it possible the permanganate is needed for a diluted form of H2O2? I
recall someone doing testburns with 51% H2O2 as pure was potentially
dangerous and/or difficult to procure without self distilation. I do
recall him mentioning a purple mess after a burn.

Chuck

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Len Lekx - 10 Dec 2007 22:36 GMT

>>>>to venture I guess, I'd say that the permanganate was being used as a
>>>>catalyst to decompose the peroxide into water vapour and oxygen.
>Is it possible the permanganate is needed for a diluted form of H2O2? I
>recall someone doing testburns with 51% H2O2 as pure was potentially
>dangerous and/or difficult to procure without self distilation. I do
>recall him mentioning a purple mess after a burn.

Something is needed to decompose the peroxide and release the
oxygen - no matter what the concentration is. Permanganates are only
one possible choice. Silver is another, as well as platinum.

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Gary - 16 Dec 2007 04:22 GMT

> I can't see moving a one ton warhead a couple hundred miles on steam.

The shuttle main engines do a pretty good job with it.

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Gary

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Model Forum / General / Rockets / December 2007

Hydrogen peroxide & potassium permanganate as a rocket propellant ?