HPR article in yesterday's Chicago Tribune
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Bob Kaplow - 19 Jan 2008 18:14 GMT www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-rocketmenjan18,0,4435685.story
Appetite for propulsion
With solid rocket fuel and a lust for thrust, an extreme hobby launches itself onto the radar of the feds
By Mike Anton
Tribune Newspapers: Los Angeles Times
January 18, 2008
LUCERNE VALLEY, Calif.
The pickup with "Official Rocket Recovery Vehicle" on its side bounced across the rutted dry lake bed kicking up silt. Andy Tryon glanced over his shoulder at his baby cradled in back. In a few minutes, his crew would gently place the Desert Hawk on the launch pad and arm it with an igniter.
Showtime and Tryon was nervous.
The rocket represented three months of labor. He needed to solve the engineering flaw that doomed the Desert Hawk's three previous launches. The camouflage paint job alone took two weeks. On the rocket's fins were inspirational quotes from the Bible, Shakespeare, the heavy metal band Molly Hatchet and the theme song from the television show "Star Trek: Enterprise."
"There's a heck of a lot of trial and error in this hobby," said Tryon, a 41-year-old from Victorville, Calif., who drives a forklift for Wal-Mart. "We refer to it as the bug. Either it bites you or it doesn't. But when it bites, it bites in a big way. Did for me."
Tryon's goal is to make a name for himself in the competitive world of model rocketry. If that conjures up images of a junior high science fair, think again.
The Desert Hawk is 10 feet tall and weighs 126 pounds. Launching it required high-altitude clearance from the Federal Aviation Administration. It's fueled by a mixture of ammonium perchlorate and synthetic rubber; known as APCP, it's essentially what powers the space shuttle.
What was once a simple boyhood hobby spawned by the Cold War's space race has transformed into extreme rocketry, a subculture dominated by middle-age men.
"The final result of all the work is that you light a motor and there's a big old bunch of noise, smoke and flames," said Richard "Wedge" Oldham, who lives in the San Fernando Valley and builds replicas of vintage Cold War missiles. "That appeals to guys."
ATF calling
It also got the attention of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. In recent years, the bureau has tightened regulations on the purchase and storage of APCP, which it classifies as an explosive. Even small amounts of APCP can require a federal permit and a background check.
Heightened scrutiny since Sept. 11, 2001, threatens to affix training wheels to the hobby, said Ken Good, president of the Tripoli Rocketry Association, which along with another group has been locked in an eight-year court battle with the agency.
"What's going to happen when an 18-year-old tells his parents, 'I've got a new hobby, but I've got to get a low explosive user's permit and, oh, by the way, the ATF is going to inspect our house to make sure it's being stored properly,'" Good said. "The kid's parents are going to say: 'Gee, can you find another hobby?'"
Or as Oldham put it, "The ATF is worried that someone could use these things as a weapon. We're lucky if we can hit the sky."
Oldham, a wiry 50-year-old with steel blue eyes and a habit for Marlboro Reds, is well known among extreme rocketeers. ("Wedge is somebody I'd aspire to," Tryon said.) He is among fewer than 100 rocket builders who tackle projects big enough to warrant attention at international events such as the annual Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships convention and the revealingly named BALLS launch in Nevada's Black Rock Desert.
He also was among scores of rocketeers who gathered in November at the federally managed Lucerne Dry Lake east of Victorville for the biannual ROCstock, an event sponsored by the Rocketry Organization of California.
As Tryon readied the Desert Hawk for launch, Oldham drew a crowd simply by displaying a motor he used recently to propel a 700-pound model of a Nike Ajax missile -- without a warhead, of course -- to a height of 14,740 feet in 30 seconds.
'Totally enthralled'
Oldham stumbled onto extreme rocketry like many of his peers did -- in middle age when he introduced his childhood hobby to his teen son.
"As a kid in the early '60s, when the U.S. got into the space race, I was totally enthralled," he said. "Eventually the Navy and girls got in the way." Unbeknownst to Oldham, model rocketry had super-sized in the intervening years. It was no longer just a kid's game. His son grew bored with rockets. Oldham grew more intense.
"I wake up thinking about rockets and I go to bed thinking about rockets," said Oldham, a software engineer who keeps three framed photos of his most beloved projects on an office shelf where others might have family pictures. "It's not a hobby. It's a passion and obsession."
It's Tryon's obsession, too, and on this day he launched his Desert Hawk, pressing a button that sent an electrical charge to the Desert Hawk and ignited its fuel. Thick black smoke spewed from the rocket's tail. It lurched from the desert floor and roared into the atmosphere
"Go, baby, go!" Tryon said.
- - -
Want a missile?
Get a mortgage
Richard "Wedge" Oldham's Nike Ajax missile cost him $10,000- $8,000 from a refinancing of his home. His next project, a 45-foot-long replica of a Nike Hercules, will cost twice as much. "It'll go supersonic. About Mach 1.1,'' Oldham said. 'I don't know where the money is going to come from. I just know I'm going to build it."
Copyright © 2008, Chicago Tribune
 Signature Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://www.nira-rocketry.org/Document/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Sir, if I was building a weapon of mass destruction, you wouldn't be able to find it.
Roger Smith - 19 Jan 2008 18:28 GMT > Or as Oldham put it, "The ATF is worried that someone could use these > things > as a weapon. We're lucky if we can hit the sky." Nice quote. :-)
> Richard "Wedge" Oldham's Nike Ajax missile cost him $10,000- $8,000 from a > refinancing of his home. Now, I don't feel so bad about the $150 motor casing I lost last week. Thanks, Wedge! :-)
-- Roger http://www.payloadbay.com/
Darrell D. Mobley - 20 Jan 2008 00:57 GMT >> Richard "Wedge" Oldham's Nike Ajax missile cost him $10,000- $8,000 from a >> refinancing of his home. > > Now, I don't feel so bad about the $150 motor casing I lost last week. > Thanks, Wedge! :-) I applaud people's commitment to their hobby, but isn't this a bit of a reach? An $8,000 2nd mortgage, 10 years at 5% would result in $84.85 monthly payments with a total of $2182.29 of interest. Why pay all that interest for the next 10 or so years to launch a rocket? And I thought using credit cards was a bad idea, but I guess he can write the interest off...
 Signature At first there was just one planet. And then there were two...
Rocketry Planet (http://www.rocketryplanet.com) and now Our Planet (http://our.rocketryplanet.com)!
Wedge Oldham - 11 Feb 2008 19:22 GMT It's interesting to note, how many people noticed that comment out of the article. I'll admit that I committed a grave error in chatting with Mike Anton the reporter who wrote the article. When asked "How did you pay for that rocket?", I should have said "My personal finances are .....personal".
There does seem to be a large number of people who like the projects I've flown. I've noticed quite a few people who placed links on their websites point to my projects. I've also seen a number of websites adorned with pictures of my projects.
But this is the first time I've ever seen a critique of how I pay for them. Wedge
>>> Richard "Wedge" Oldham's Nike Ajax missile cost him $10,000- $8,000 from >>> a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > using credit cards was a bad idea, but I guess he can write the interest > off... Wedge Oldham - 26 Jan 2008 20:18 GMT My pleasure....really; my pleasure. Wedge Oldham
>> Or as Oldham put it, "The ATF is worried that someone could use these >> things [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- Roger > http://www.payloadbay.com/ Harry B. - 19 Jan 2008 20:20 GMT > www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-rocketmenjan18,0,4435685.story > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > LUCERNE VALLEY, Calif. <article clipped>
Here's the article with a few pics on the LA Times site. "Rocket science fills their spare time - Los Angeles Times" By Mike Anton, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer - January 18, 2008 http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-rocketeer18jan18,0,4932530.story
Alan Jones - 20 Jan 2008 19:08 GMT >www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-rocketmenjan18,0,4435685.story > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >By Mike Anton
>"There's a heck of a lot of trial and error in this hobby," said Tryon, a >41-year-old from Victorville, Calif., who drives a forklift for Wal-Mart. Ah yes, HPR, the hobby of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers. ;) What ever happened to the image of geeks honing their technical skills?
>Tryon's goal is to make a name for himself in the competitive world of model >rocketry. A worthy goal, perhaps, but he seems a bit off track.
>What was once a simple boyhood hobby spawned by the Cold War's space race >has transformed into extreme rocketry, a subculture dominated by middle-age >men. Isn't Extreme Rocketry just the name of a rag? The hobby/sport is High Power Rocketry, HPR. It's not a subculture, its a hobby.
>Heightened scrutiny since Sept. 11, 2001, threatens to affix training wheels >to the hobby, said Ken Good, president of the Tripoli Rocketry Association, >which along with another group has been locked in an eight-year court battle >with the agency. In the space wasted with "another group", "the NAR" should have been used.
>Richard "Wedge" Oldham's Nike Ajax missile cost him $10,000- $8,000 from a >refinancing of his home. His next project, a 45-foot-long replica of a Nike >Hercules, will cost twice as much. "It'll go supersonic. About Mach 1.1,'' >Oldham said. 'I don't know where the money is going to come from. I just >know I'm going to build it." Wedge should recheck his math, and find a new financial advisor.
>Copyright © 2008, Chicago Tribune rokkits - 21 Jan 2008 16:30 GMT >> "There's a heck of a lot of trial and error in this hobby," said Tryon, a >> 41-year-old from Victorville, Calif., who drives a forklift for Wal-Mart. > > Ah yes, HPR, the hobby of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers. ;) What ever > happened to the image of geeks honing their technical skills? HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome".
W. E. Fred Wallace - 21 Jan 2008 16:39 GMT > HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". Speak for yourself...(:-)
edbedb - 21 Jan 2008 18:32 GMT >> HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". > > Speak for yourself...(:-) Its a very perceptive observation, which is proven every ime Fred posts.
Gonna' beat somebody up. Fred?
§ - 21 Jan 2008 18:38 GMT >>> HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Gonna' beat somebody up. Fred? Instead of being a butthead why don't you post something rocketry related to this newsgroup, rec.models.rockets?
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
Darrell D. Mobley - 21 Jan 2008 20:36 GMT > Instead of being a butthead why don't you post something rocketry > related to this newsgroup, rec.models.rockets? You're making the assumption he knows something rocketry related.
 Signature At first there was just one planet. And then there were two...
Rocketry Planet (http://www.rocketryplanet.com) and now Our Planet (http://our.rocketryplanet.com)!
W. E. Fred Wallace - 21 Jan 2008 19:13 GMT Ed Bennet slobbered:
>>> HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Gonna' beat somebody up. Fred? Ed,
The only fact sadder than your ignorance, is your inability to recognize the fact...(:-( Can't you understand a joke when you read??
Fred
§ - 21 Jan 2008 17:49 GMT >>> "There's a heck of a lot of trial and error in this hobby," said >>> Tryon, a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". Your just *afraid* of HPR.
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
rokkits - 21 Jan 2008 18:50 GMT >>>> "There's a heck of a lot of trial and error in this hobby," said >>>> Tryon, a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > TRA#5512 > IEAS#75 .....rrriiigggghhhhttttt........
§ - 21 Jan 2008 18:53 GMT >>>>> "There's a heck of a lot of trial and error in this hobby," said >>>>> Tryon, a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > ......rrriiigggghhhhttttt........ I knew it!
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
Eekamouse - 21 Jan 2008 19:40 GMT > HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". As opposed to trolling, a symptom of "no dick syndrome".
rokkits - 21 Jan 2008 19:51 GMT >> HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". > > As opposed to trolling, a symptom of "no dick syndrome". I rest my case
§ - 21 Jan 2008 19:58 GMT >>> HPR is largely just another manifestation of "small dick syndrome". >> >> As opposed to trolling, a symptom of "no dick syndrome". >> > I rest my case That you have no dick? That's kinda being hard on ones self, don't you think?
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
Darrell D. Mobley - 21 Jan 2008 20:37 GMT > That you have no dick? That's kinda being hard on ones self, don't you > think? Honesty can be hard.
 Signature At first there was just one planet. And then there were two...
Rocketry Planet (http://www.rocketryplanet.com) and now Our Planet (http://our.rocketryplanet.com)!
rokkits - 21 Jan 2008 21:09 GMT >> That you have no dick? That's kinda being hard on ones self, don't >> you think? > > Honesty can be hard. Yeah, honesty.
Like allowing the unregulated sale of motors for years with your full knowledge?
That honesty?
Darrell D. Mobley - 22 Jan 2008 02:50 GMT > Yeah, honesty. > > Like allowing the unregulated sale of motors for years with your full > knowledge? > > That honesty? I am not a cop, nor do I play one on the Internet. It is up to the individuals involved in the transactions to make sure they are following applicable local, state and federal laws. I no more "allowed" the unregulated sale of motors than your local newspaper allows the unregulated sale of guns. But who is the appropriate party to be held accountable? The person selling the motor? The person buying the motor? Using your logic, they are not at fault, I am. Now if you want to show me one example where I said, "Pssst! Want to buy a restricted motor? Give me your money and I'll get one for you," then you may have a point. Until then, that was really weak. Seriously, was that your best shot?
 Signature At first there was just one planet. And then there were two...
Rocketry Planet (http://www.rocketryplanet.com) and now Our Planet (http://our.rocketryplanet.com)!
rokkits - 22 Jan 2008 11:13 GMT >> Yeah, honesty. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > a point. Until then, that was really weak. Seriously, was that your > best shot? Sorry Darrell, but your take is the weak one.
Exculpatory statements just don't cut the mustard.
You had full knowledge of what was going on.
W. E. Fred Wallace - 22 Jan 2008 11:21 GMT >>> Yeah, honesty. >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > You had full knowledge of what was going on. Why do you care, one way or another???
Darrell D. Mobley - 25 Jan 2008 00:00 GMT >> Sorry Darrell, but your take is the weak one. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Why do you care, one way or another??? He's the only one that does care.
 Signature At first there was just one planet. And then there were two...
Rocketry Planet (http://www.rocketryplanet.com) and now Our Planet (http://our.rocketryplanet.com)!
Big Habeeb (a.k.a. Mitch) - 22 Jan 2008 14:24 GMT > Darrell D. Mobley cried his eyes out to his momma babbling: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Darrel does not have a fuckign clue on most anything, why give the fucktard credit for knowing anyhting here either.Once a fucktard always a fucktard.Want Proof.look at Tweak and Freddie Wallace...............
W. E. Fred Wallace - 22 Jan 2008 20:39 GMT > Darrel does not have a fuckign clue on most anything, why give the > fucktard credit for knowing anyhting here either.Once a fucktard > always a fucktard. I see you are still having trouble with your spell checker; or is the booze and crack pipe clouding your moronic brain??? (:-)
ddmobley - 22 Jan 2008 23:26 GMT > I see you are still having trouble with your spell checker; or is the > booze and crack pipe clouding your moronic brain??? (:-) Brain!?!?
Markum - 23 Jan 2008 14:13 GMT LOL
On Jan 22, 3:40 pm, "W. E. Fred Wallace" <frederoc...@boe.com> wrote:
> I see you are still having trouble with your spell checker; or is the > booze and crack pipe clouding your moronic brain??? (:-) Brain!?!?
ddmobley - 22 Jan 2008 23:25 GMT > Sorry Darrell, but your take is the weak one. > > Exculpatory statements just don't cut the mustard. > > You had full knowledge of what was going on. So sue me, dickhead.
plano-doug - 21 Jan 2008 23:23 GMT > >[article by] Mike Anton
> It's not a subculture, its a hobby. Yeah, but Mr Anton spent four years in journalism school. It's not sufficient to describe us; he must add a label, and the more hyperbolic, the better.
So, if we're a subculture, what are tongue-speaking snakehandlers? (besides nuts)
> In the space wasted with "another group", "the NAR" should > have been used. I thought that, too.
> Wedge should recheck his math, and find a new financial > advisor. Maybe that's how he gets a big refund check :)
Doug
.
Tweak - 22 Jan 2008 13:43 GMT > Ah yes, HPR, the hobby of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers. ;) What ever > happened to the image of geeks honing their technical skills? Don't bother with a wink, anyone who has been here is familiar with your opinions regarding HPR and it's participants.
 Signature Tweak
Alan Jones - 24 Jan 2008 02:33 GMT >> Ah yes, HPR, the hobby of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers. ;) What ever >> happened to the image of geeks honing their technical skills? > >Don't bother with a wink, anyone who has been here is familiar with your >opinions regarding HPR and it's participants. Seriously, there is nothing wrong with fork lift drivers. In fact, that was one of the skills that helped my pay for my Aero. E. degree. Nevertheless, I take an interest in the image of sport rocketry portrayed by the press.
Just to stir things up a bit: Most of us are not happy with the "toyification" of model rocketry. We prefer the glory days when model rocketry was a scientific educational pursuit of serious minded modelers. In fact, many of the HPR crowd were attracted to HPR, in part, to distance themselves from the MR image of kids and their toys. Those HPR folks must be annoyed to see the lofty HPR portrayed as a trial and error endeavor of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers with questionable financial management skills.
It's going to -15 Deg. F. tonight. A little heat please. Alan
Gus - 24 Jan 2008 12:44 GMT > Those HPR folks must be annoyed to see the lofty HPR portrayed as a > trial and error endeavor of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers with > questionable financial management skills. "lofty HPR"
If you mean lofty in terms of "beer lofting" - yes
If you mean lofty in the sense of higher educational pursuit - ROFL !!
Phil Stein - 24 Jan 2008 15:09 GMT >> Those HPR folks must be annoyed to see the lofty HPR portrayed as a >> trial and error endeavor of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >If you mean lofty in the sense of higher educational pursuit - ROFL !! I agree that no one could ever learn anything when they're involved with the garbage I've seen you fly. I'd say yours are in the complexity re age between a toilet paper roll with a rocket motor and a match with aluminum foil wrapped around it.
Gus - 24 Jan 2008 15:25 GMT On Jan 24, 10:09 am, Phil Stein <PSt...@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote:
> >> Those HPR folks must be annoyed to see the lofty HPR portrayed as a > >> trial and error endeavor of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers with [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > complexity re age between a toilet paper roll with a rocket motor and > a match with aluminum foil wrapped around it. Truth hurts, eh Phil?
Tweak - 24 Jan 2008 16:06 GMT > >> Ah yes, HPR, the hobby of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers. ;) What ever > >> happened to the image of geeks honing their technical skills? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > rocketry was a scientific educational pursuit of serious minded > modelers. "Most of us"? "We"? Who knew you were so adept at sly humor? Gassaway has said you don't speak for the NAR, so who are these 3 people for whom you speak? As to that last sentence I'll take the called strike, it's just too easy.
> In fact, many of the HPR crowd were attracted to HPR, in > part, to distance themselves from the MR image of kids and their toys. > Those HPR folks must be annoyed to see the lofty HPR portrayed as a > trial and error endeavor of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers with > questionable financial management skills. Annoyed? Not at all. Where you view this individual with disdain I see enthusiasm, determination and excitement. Could he be more intelligent and/or wise with his choices and methodology? Certainly, but that applies to all of us in on way or another. It even applies to individuals who would rather rocketry remain the purview of 72 "serious minded modelers", and not allow "everyman" to participate.
> It's going to -15 Deg. F. tonight. A little heat please. > Alan You'll have to do better than that, as the above didn't even cause me to lift from my slouch. I am afraid we no longer have critical mass for a good, old fashioned barn burning, anyway. :-(
 Signature Tweak
Alan Jones - 26 Jan 2008 21:44 GMT >> >> Ah yes, HPR, the hobby of Wal-Mart fork lift drivers. ;) What ever >> >> happened to the image of geeks honing their technical skills? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >you speak? As to that last sentence I'll take the called strike, it's >just too easy. That's lame, picking on "us" and "we". What is so special about "3" people? Is that supposed to be the majority of real RMR participants now? It is true that I don't speak for the NAR, but I do on occasion speak for myself and comment on my hobby of sport rocketry. At least you have the guts to admit that you are the mouthpiece for Gassaway.
You could have easily misinterpreted my use of "toyification", and used it to paint me with ugly colors.
>> In fact, many of the HPR crowd were attracted to HPR, in >> part, to distance themselves from the MR image of kids and their toys. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >individuals who would rather rocketry remain the purview of 72 "serious >minded modelers", and not allow "everyman" to participate. I do not view him with disdain, except to the extent that the author chose this person, and not another, to be the focus of his article. Ny disdain is only for the author. As a past NAR section president I valued the diversity of rocketeers and theirs sills. I valued the welder as much as the electrical engineer. I do admire Tyron's enthusiasm; he just seems a bit over committed. This suggests that he may not be entirely responsible, and I think people with explosive permits should be entirely responsible. I have not met Tyron, and I would not want to judge him on the basis of the article. I do think that when the author focused on Tyron, he was not presenting a particularly good or representative image of HPR participants.
>> It's going to -15 Deg. F. tonight. A little heat please. >> Alan > >You'll have to do better than that, as the above didn't even cause me to >lift from my slouch. I am afraid we no longer have critical mass for a >good, old fashioned barn burning, anyway. :-( That's true. Thanks for playing along. Don't bother to get up.
Alan
Phil Stein - 24 Jan 2008 15:03 GMT >In the space wasted with "another group", "the NAR" should have been >used. Check the specifics of the rocket and then check to see if "the NAR" would allow a flight like the one in the article. If you don't want to check, I will simply say that NAR will not allow launching a rocket like that at one of their launches. I'll also tell you that those policies are why more NAR Sections are switching to dual affiliations or only affiliating with TRA.
>Wedge should recheck his math, and find a new financial advisor. It beats gambling and drug addictions.
Alan Jones - 26 Jan 2008 21:44 GMT >>In the space wasted with "another group", "the NAR" should have been >>used. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >policies are why more NAR Sections are switching to dual affiliations >or only affiliating with TRA. Perhaps, but "another group" was a specific reference to another group co-suing the BATFE.
>>Wedge should recheck his math, and find a new financial advisor. > >It beats gambling and drug addictions. And it may keep him off the streets and out of gangs, but that is still faint praise for HPR. At least with gambling he'd have a chance of not burning his money.
Alan
Phil Stein - 27 Jan 2008 00:31 GMT >>>In the space wasted with "another group", "the NAR" should have been >>>used. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Alan See if you understand this - People can spend their money any way they like without some stranger sticking his nose in. I'm glad that Wedge and other HPR enthusiasts (you do not seem to be one) can enjoy themselves doing it anyway they seem fit. How he or anyone else chooses to finance a project is neither any of your nor any of my business.
Should I see if I get your approval next time I buy a new house? I suppose it should be a specific size and not to fancy.
Personally, I enjoy seeing, hearing about, flying and discussing big projects. I thank Wedge and many others for making that possible.
Phil
Wedge Oldham - 11 Feb 2008 18:59 GMT Thanks for the comments Phil. I'm glad you've enjoyed my projects, and you're welcome.
For anyone who's interested in seeing what's next, you can check out http://NikeProject.com
Wedge Oldham
>>>>In the space wasted with "another group", "the NAR" should have been >>>>used. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Phil
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