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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / February 2006Safety of Saphion Batteries ?
I'm looking at using LiPo batteries for an upcoming project, but have been concerned about the safety issues and so am looking at the Saphion technology. Everything that I have read seems to indicate that the safety of Saphion batteries is comparable to NiMH batteries. Does anybody here have any different experiences ? Also, what is the cheapest source of these batteries in the UK ? The going rate for a 3S1P 9.6v 1200mAh seems to be about 25 quid (from places like Overlander). Thanks for any information, Simon.  SignatureSimon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Scientific Theory: A testable hypothesis that is supported by a body of evidence all batteries are dangerous,you need look at the total number of LiPo's in use compared to the very small amount of problems, 99% of mobile phones use LiPo batteries and you don't see people randomly setting there ears on fire, your just as likely to have an accident in the car > I'm looking at using LiPo batteries for an upcoming project, but have been > concerned about the safety issues and so am looking at the Saphion [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Simon. > all batteries are dangerous,you need look at the total number of LiPo's in > use compared to the very small amount of problems, 99% of mobile phones use > LiPo batteries and you don't see people randomly setting there ears on fire, > your just as likely to have an accident in the car Quite true, but I don't see many people attaching wings to their mobile phone and flying it into the ground at speed when things go wrong. :-) Been serious though, it is the damage caused in such an accident that I am concerned about (as well as when charging) and if the Saphion batteries really are as safe as NiMH in this type of situation. Thanks to anyone for any information, Simon. SignatureSimon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Scientific Theory: A testable hypothesis that is supported by a body of evidence > > all batteries are dangerous,you need look at the total number of LiPo's in > > use compared to the very small amount of problems, 99% of mobile phones use [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > -- Simon, I comment as a scientific writer with degrees in chemistry and as an aeromodeller. As I understand Saphion batteries they have a Phosphate based cathode which is not prone to the thermal runaway effect of Li-Ion batteries Cobalt Oxide cathode in the event of hard shorting or overcharge. ie they shouldnt catch fire in the event of the worst. >From this point of view alone they should be safer than Li-Ion. However, aeromodelling in flight battery environment is a harsh one, and although it is calimed that Saphion batteries are durable enough to be a safer replacement for mobile phone / laptop batteries etc, I think it remains to be seen whether they are that durable. > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP > Scientific Theory: A testable hypothesis that is supported by a body of evidence No but I see people dropping their phones on hard ground surfaces almost daily. No fires there either. SignaturePaul McIntosh RC-Bearings.com "when steel just isn't enough" >> all batteries are dangerous,you need look at the total number of LiPo's >> in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Simon. >> all batteries are dangerous,you need look at the total number of LiPo's in >> use compared to the very small amount of problems, 99% of mobile phones use [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Quite true, but I don't see many people attaching wings to their mobile phone > and flying it into the ground at speed when things go wrong. :-) If you smash a LIPO pack its into the slow discharge regime in the salt water bucket, and toss it. I try NOT to fly mine into hard ground at high speed. If it catches fire in an accident, you lose the plane. Tough. you already lost it, its just how much you may get back afterwards. LIPOS meanyou nearly always have power to go round again, and the plane weighs less and doesn't hit as hard. *shrug* some peopl buy volvos because they are safer in a crash Other people buy cars with decent handling acceleration and brakes because they are less likely to have accidents. YMMV. > Been serious though, it is the damage caused in such an accident that I am > concerned about (as well as when charging) and if the Saphion batteries > really are as safe as NiMH in this type of situation. Of you want inferior performance, get spahions. LIPOS are worth the risk, - the performance increae is like putting a glo engine in...no more 3 minute flights and bringing an overwieght model in under failing power. 20 minute flights if you want, and the model flies like an angel, Those who try Lipos never ever go back. > Thanks to anyone for any information, > > Simon. > I try NOT to fly mine into hard ground at high speed. > > If it catches fire in an accident, you lose the plane. Tough. you already > lost it, its just how much you may get back afterwards. It's not really the plane that I'm concerned about, it's the environment that the battery may be in (house/garage/etc) especially in the event of non-obvious damage and hence thinking it's ok to recharge and continue using the pack. > LIPOS are worth the risk, - the performance increae is like putting a glo > engine in...no more 3 minute flights and bringing an overwieght model in > under failing power. 20 minute flights if you want, and the model flies > like an angel, > > Those who try Lipos never ever go back. I'm currently regarding a LiPo fire as a low probability but high impact event. Thanks to everyone for the range of comments. Simon. SignatureSimon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Scientific Theory: A testable hypothesis that is supported by a body of evidence > I'm currently regarding a LiPo fire as a low probability but high impact > event. > > Thanks to everyone for the range of comments. > > Simon. Simon - my take exactly........ It's not hard to manage - When at home I store and charge cells in a Pyrex dish with another larger pirex dish on top leaving big vents holes either side. I did a controlled burn on an old pack to test this arrangement and it works nicely - so nicely I still charge in my living room where I can keep an eye on em in comfort:) Vent with flames is what they do - there is no explosion unless you encase them in a semi-airtight container- then like any flammable they become a bomb! Scott > Scientific Theory: A testable hypothesis that is supported by a body of evidence I'm very glad you brought that up. Imagine if one of these packs decides to go up in flames in your trouser pocket ... what state are your testables going to be in after that! ;o) SignatureDave (Sgt. Pepper) Epsom, England Nikon D2X / D2H / D100 / Coolpix 5700 / Canon Ixus 400 / Paintshop Pro 8 My photo galleries at http://www.pbase.com/davecq "I will not tolerate intolerance ... Doh!!" > > I try NOT to fly mine into hard ground at high speed. > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP > Scientific Theory: A testable hypothesis that is supported by a body of evidence '... I'm currently regarding a LiPo fire as a low probability but high impact event'. Yes, I would say thats about the measure of it. From there it is a personal judgement whether to use LiPos or to go for the inherantly safer chemistry of Saphions. >> I try NOT to fly mine into hard ground at high speed. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > non-obvious damage and hence thinking it's ok to recharge and continue using > the pack. Then store them where they won't do the damage If they are not gone up in smoke 48 hours after a crash, they likely won't ever. about 95% of LIPO fires are during charging or as the immediate reult of physical rtrauma (shorting/overheating in flkight, or left in hot sunlight) >> LIPOS are worth the risk, - the performance increae is like putting a glo >> engine in...no more 3 minute flights and bringing an overwieght model in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'm currently regarding a LiPo fire as a low probability but high impact event. Many peopel who ruin packs - most in fact - see no more than puffing and loss of capacity. The fires are raer. They happen usually because of a combination of things. They are rare. very rare. But not unheard of. Neither is getting killed crossing a road, or falling off a ladder , or having mice eat through house wiring and burn the place down. You just need a perspective. > Thanks to everyone for the range of comments. > > Simon. They are very safe - mostly because they are not readily available to the hobby yet. :-> SignatureRed S. The Battery Clinic www.rcbatteryclinic.com > > I try NOT to fly mine into hard ground at high speed. > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Simon. > They are very safe - mostly because they are not readily available to the > hobby yet. :-> Really? perhaps in the U.S.A. but they are in the U.K.! http://www.overlander.co.uk/results.asp?categoryid=89 Dave :^) >> In article <11nxow6mdrhvr.fbsr9f1gyuw3$.dlg@40tude.net>, The Natural > Philosopher <A@b.c> writes: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> > evidence > 99% of mobile phones use LiPo batteries Really ? Both mobile phones I currently have, a Siemens and a Ericson use Lithium Ion batteries ........ Are my phones in the 1% that dont use LiPo batteries then ? Stuart. LiPo is a form of Lion. SignaturePaul McIntosh RC-Bearings.com "when steel just isn't enough" >> 99% of mobile phones use LiPo batteries > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Stuart. >> 99% of mobile phones use LiPo batteries > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Stuart. LIPOS are lithium ion batteries..they are optimised for higher discharge rates with a slighrtly more flammable electroyte, thats all, LIPOS in cellphones are sligjly better protected agaiuns over charging and discharging, and come with a hard plastic case...but the are nearly as capable of serious fires if abused. If you don;t bugger around with Lipos, and make sure you are operating well withing their stated limits (which the vendors have a habit of exagerrating) they are safe. Period. If you play silly buggers with them, you deserve to get your car burnt out anyway. > I'm looking at using LiPo batteries for an upcoming project, but have been > concerned about the safety issues and so am looking at the Saphion [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > rate for a 3S1P 9.6v 1200mAh seems to be about 25 quid (from places like > Overlander). My view on this issue is that if you have an accident bad enough to damage the cells either they had insufficient attention paid to them during installation (foam etc) or it really was a big 'event' in which case it will be a total loss anyway. I have been using them since Graham Stabler started selling them, have over 40 packs and 3 serious 'events' have occurred in that time. Only once did a pack receive damage and that was due to the fact it and the nose of the ac were 8 inches under resulting in shafted prop, motor, ESC and servo's. Everything got bined of course except for the LIPO - the only damaged cell was in the middle of a 4S 2600 pack - this later became a certified 3S pack after much testing in a ceramic dish. Certainly with slow/3d/indoor fly I don't beleive an issue exists - I have had some real howlers involving walls ceiling and floors - not once have I damaged a pack - not least because they only weigh 100g tops! With bigger stuff I know its an issue. I made a 3.6m cap232 a while back and that needed 5S3P to stay airborne for longer than 5 mins. The pack weighed 800g and when I did finally mess up big style during some low rolling circles the pack came out alive - 4ft from the plane! Clearly - as they get heavier the issue is more apparent but I still say if you don't take simple steps like foaming in front of the cell you are asking for trouble. And yes, I've pushed em too hard, overcharged (charger error) and had ballooning but not once have I seen one go up in flames accidently or as a result of someone looking at them the wrong way............ More on topic........... do the saphions really offer significant advantage over NIMH to make the expense worthwhile? Last time I looked they cost a fortune!. SC I have 1500mAh, 3S, 15C LiPos available for $34.50. SignaturePaul McIntosh RC-Bearings.com "when steel just isn't enough" > I'm looking at using LiPo batteries for an upcoming project, but have been > concerned about the safety issues and so am looking at the Saphion [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Simon. |
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