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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / August 2006New CAP 658
Just found some info on the BMFA forums. For those who haven't come across the information yet... A new CAP 658 has been issued. Details from www.caa.co.uk Put cap 658 into the search box at the top right corner and then select the PDF file to download. Makes good reading and covers just about anything you need to know about the regulations concerning flying model aircraft of all types. One of the things that concerned me was the frequency of low flying by the RAF in the areas where I slope soar. These guys suddenly appear with no prior noise to alert to their presence, going like a bat out of hell and often at, or below, the level my glders are at. I see there is a free-phone number that I could use to alert the military to the times and locations when I would be flying... that could be very handy 'cos then I know that they know that I know that they know about my presence in their high speed play ground ! Apart from a direct strike the turbulence alone would almost certainly cause a degree of upset to my models equilibrium >:-) Reg Reg > One of the things that concerned me was the frequency of low flying by > the RAF in the areas where I slope soar. These guys suddenly appear with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Apart from a direct strike the turbulence alone would almost certainly cause > a degree of upset to my models equilibrium >:-) I've had one under fly a model, as you say there was no warning. I reckon that if he had sucked my model in it would have brought him down, after all their engines are not designed to withstand a few pounds of model engine being ingested and he was so low and at right angles to the hills that he would have piled in. He would have had very little time to bail out either. Greg >> One of the things that concerned me was the frequency of low flying by >> the RAF in the areas where I slope soar. These guys suddenly appear with [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Greg There are not many weekdays when they are not around at some time or other. I reckon I would feel happier if I could let them know my exact location so they could avoid it. Hell, I don't want the bill for replacig one of those things ! Reg > There are not many weekdays when they are not around at some time or > other. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hell, I don't want the bill for replacig one of those things ! What I didn't mention is that I was flying at a farm strip which was at the time shown on the CAA maps, if a light aircraft had been taking off it would have been a very close thing as the surrounding hills would have masked it from their radar until a bit too late. Either their computers were out of date, or they took a stupid risk in overflying an active airstrip at low level, it wouldn't have been the first time the RAF had brought a plane down that way 8-(. Greg SNIP>>> > There are not many weekdays when they are not around at some time or > other. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Reg G'day Reg Are you governed by altitude limits in the UK ? We are suppose to observe 400 foot ceiling (AGL) down here. Stupid bloody rule if you ask me, because how does one gauge height from the ground? Where we fly, the closest local light aircraft airport is 5 NM and we have plenty of warning if someone is about to overfly us, so evacuating air space is no problem if a mug pilot choses to fly (illegially low) over or near us. By the way, have you finished with our summer yet? No good up your end Reg, 'cause you don't appreciate cold beer :-) DN > G'day Reg > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > By the way, have you finished with our summer yet? No good up your end > Reg, 'cause you don't appreciate cold beer :-) Hi DN, Ordinary models are not limited to a particular altitude. However models above a certain weight are. Doesn't affect me 'cos I would develop numerous hernias trying to get the damned things up onto the slopes >:-) If my currently faultering memory serves me (it usually doesn't) then I think we can fly as high as we like as long as the model doesn't exceed 20 kg... and I ain't lugging something like that up a hillside and then attempting to throw it off >:-) Much stricter controls are imposed on those mad enough to build anything 20 kg or more.... and so they should be !!! 'Ere how do your free flight bodgers keep their models below 400 ft then? If the model catches a thermal are you expected to shoot it down before it exceeds the permitted height ? I hope we haven't finished with your summer yet, indications at the moment are that we have, but I am hoping for a late burst of glory before the winter building season appears. Cold beer is OK, but if you get it too cold then you lose the subtle flavours... we are talking proper beer here, not the pale yellow stuff that THINKS it's beer.... lager is OK for keeping the tin in shape and stopping it collapsing inwards...at a pinch I suppose you could also put it in your car radiator if you got a leak, probably chance ruining the entire cooling system though ! >:-) Reg Me thinks a rereading of CAP658 is in order. Above 7Kg without fuel is not allowed above 400ft nor within (effectively) an air traffic zone nor controlled airspace without atc permission. Regards Peter >> G'day Reg >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Reg > Me thinks a rereading of CAP658 is in order. > > Above 7Kg without fuel is not allowed above 400ft nor within (effectively) > an air traffic zone nor controlled airspace without atc permission. > > Regards Peter SNIP> Hi Peter And below 7Kg with fuel and RC ??? DN The Air Navigation Order states: Article 64 "A person shall not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property." Regards Peter >> Me thinks a rereading of CAP658 is in order. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > DN > The Air Navigation Order states: > Article 64 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Regards Peter And where does that place the low flying RAF bod??? A popular site on the North Yorkshire Moors on which I've flown lightweight slopers frequently had RAF planes passing by below the ridge we flew from... Malcolm > " I'm only the messenger - talk to the MoD about it!! Peter >> The Air Navigation Order states: >> Article 64 [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> " > The Air Navigation Order states: > Article 64 > > "A person shall not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to > > endanger any person or property." > Regards Peter That doesn't impose any limit on flying height, unless near to an airfield. As long as reasonable precautions are taken to ensure that property and people are not needlessly put at risk then, below 7kg, there is no height restriction beyond the sensible precaution of keeping an RC controlled model within range of vision. There are some constraints close into operational airfields. If someone has exercised due care then that is all that could be reasonably expected of them. Like Malcolm, and Greg, I fly where the RAF frequently (most weekdays) do low flying. I fly in a sensible manner - away from people and property and thus do my best to ensure that I am pursuing the hobby safely and sensibly. If there is a light plane coming into the area I get my model down and well out of the way. I have had an air/sea rescue helicopter appear around the corner of the hillside and we both saw each other at the same time as I suddenly heard him... no drama, he veered out from the hill and I pulled the model down and close into the hill. If a low flying jet suddenly intrudes into the area then there is not a lot I can do about it. I am flying in a sensible place and in a sensible manner and suddenly one of the RAF's best appears as if by magic and usually well below the height limit of 500 ft that they are supposed to be keeping to..... I can only assume that the MAGIC 500 ft is above sea level 'cos it's sure as hell not above ground level ! If the section quoted from the CAP was strictly adhered to... then all free flight would have to cease immediately. How can you ensure that a free flight model won't endanger people or property.... once launched you have no control over it and unless it's got an efficient de-thermaliser it may not even come to earth in the same county it was launched from. Away from operational airfields there is no constraint on height for a model under 7kg. I am lumping "controlled" airspace in with operational airfields 'cos I don't live where it may be applicable so haven't delved into it. Reg >>> Me thinks a rereading of CAP658 is in order. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> DN > Like Malcolm, and Greg, I fly where the RAF frequently (most weekdays) > do low flying. I fly in a sensible manner - away from people and property > and thus do my best to ensure that I am pursuing the hobby safely and > sensibly. If there is a light plane coming into the area I get my model > down and well out of the way. When our field was an active farm strip full size visitors were expected to do a high circuit before they made an approach, that way we all had time to land and clear the field. Occasionally someone would just pop over the ridge and come straight in, stupid regardless of the models as the field could have been obstructed, but we just kept well over to the side to gave him plenty of room, no problem. It worked well for everybody, the modellers liked to see the full size and indeed some also have PPLs, it was sad when the owner had to plough up 2/3 of the strip but he got lots of nice subsidies from Europe for it, nice to know our tax is wisely used 8-). >How can you ensure that a free flight model won't endanger people or >property.... once launched you have no control over it and unless it's >got an efficient de-thermaliser it may not even come to earth in the same >county it was launched from. You've not been to the Nats in the evening then 8-), I stayed on Sunday night for the first time and it was, lets say, an experience!. Greg >>How can you ensure that a free flight model won't endanger people or >>property.... once launched you have no control over it and unless it's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Greg Went last year. The night we stayed behind it was fairly windy and the free flight didn't take place. A few scale jobbies had been tried and ended up in the trees >:-( Reg > Went last year. The night we stayed behind it was fairly windy and the > free flight didn't take place. A few scale jobbies had been tried and > ended up in the trees >:-( It was very windy on the Sunday but died down last thing and they got about an hour's free flight, particular crowd pleasers were the illuminated flying saucer and the flying dolphin that somehow knew to stay just over head height 8-). If you've never seen it just imagine about 500 people scattered randomly around a fairly small area with maybe one in ten launching free flight models ranging from tiny foamies to 60" classics, mostly diesel powered, many underpowered so they could barely get above head height, some trimmed well so they flew until the fuel ran out then landed in the crowd and others badly trimmed so they power dived into the crowd. Lots of virtually pointless cries of "heads" and a lot of jumping out of the way as models came at you from all sides 8-). There were no serious injuries, and from what I've heard there usually aren't, but I have to say it's more by luck than organisation of which there is absolutely none! But for all that it was an experience that I wouldn't have missed. Greg > It was very windy on the Sunday but died down last thing and they got about > an hour's free flight, particular crowd pleasers were the illuminated flying [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > an experience that I wouldn't have missed. > Greg It sound as those it is just like I imagined it would be, pity the wind spoiled the opportunity the night we stayed. I was hoping to go again this year but we got a surprise invite to share a gite in France. I hope to get there next year as my wife and I enjoyed the Nats. Reg > Me thinks a rereading of CAP658 is in order. > > Above 7Kg without fuel is not allowed above 400ft nor within (effectively) > an air traffic zone nor controlled airspace without atc permission. > > Regards Peter I said memory sometimes doesn't fail me.... only sometimes. I was too idle to look it up again >:-) I was right in one thing I remembered though... it's too bloody heavy for me to be lugging up hillsides.... even at 7kg >:-) Reg >>> G'day Reg >>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> >> Reg |
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