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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / January 2009



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2.4GHz compatibility with video transmitters?

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Chris Eilbeck - 31 Dec 2008 18:24 GMT
How does a 2.4GHz RC system work?  All I can find online says it's
digital and frequency hopping.  What's the frequency range and
modulation scheme?  I've been thinking about buying a large-ish RC
trainer and I know at some point that I'd want to fit a 2.4GHz
analogue video transmitter to it.  I'd rather not find out about
incompatibilities the hard way, if you follow me.

Chris
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Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew                              http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2                                                UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527                                          LSMR

Kevin - 31 Dec 2008 18:44 GMT
> How does a 2.4GHz RC system work?  All I can find online says it's
> digital and frequency hopping.  What's the frequency range and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Chris
all depends on the TX maker,
http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/spreadspectrum01.shtml

enjoy the read

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Kevin R
Reply address works

The Natural Philosopher - 01 Jan 2009 11:32 GMT
>> How does a 2.4GHz RC system work?  All I can find online says it's
>> digital and frequency hopping.  What's the frequency range and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> enjoy the read

There's a lot that article doesn't say.

Like the fact that a mentar loss of battery power to  Spektrum RX can
cause it to have to reboot and reacquire  the transmitter.. several
seconds of zero control, just as you were pulling the undercarriage up
and dipped the supply voltage below 3.3v..thats semi fixed now, but te
fact remains that whilst an HF set will recover instantly from power
loss, 2.4Ghz sets will take a lot longer..

Like the fact that many Futaba sets went out with the ability to wipe
their unique identity codes back to zero, leaving them all on the same
'channel' and capable of direct interference with each other.

Like the fact that tests have revealed that the chipset used by Futaba
tends to utterly stop working at fuselage temperatures over about 100F.

Like the real reason for frequency hopping and diversity is less to
avoid interference from other sources, and more to avoid multipath
interference from reflections of your won transmitter.
.
Like the fact that a 2.4Ghz receiver doesn't work at all inside a carbon
fuselage without grafting some sort of external antenna onto it.

Like the fact that the current drain of most receivers is about 3 times
higher than an HF set, which is a steady constant drain and has possibly
in some cases been enough to tip electric model regulators into
overheating and shutting down..

It does mention the main point though, that the XPS system is so bad
that its not worth buying  - better systems exist for less money.

There is also a U-tube video somewhere showing how spektrum and futaba
keep operating in the presence of a video transmitter.

However, the range the test were done at was inside a lab. Do you want
to try the same out at 3km?

Don't get me wrong. I want 2.4GHz. In general it works far better than
HF sets. But problem free it ain't. I can wait..and am waiting.
Chris Eilbeck - 01 Jan 2009 21:11 GMT
**snip**

> Don't get me wrong. I want 2.4GHz. In general it works far better than
> HF sets. But problem free it ain't. I can wait..and am waiting.

Sounds like a good plan to me.  Thanks for the info.

Chris
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Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew                              http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2                                                UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527                                          LSMR

The Natural Philosopher - 31 Dec 2008 18:52 GMT
> How does a 2.4GHz RC system work?  All I can find online says it's
> digital and frequency hopping.

well nlya few are hoppers as such.

>  What's the frequency range and
> modulation scheme?  

OK, this is as far as I have been able to ascertain the facts.

The 2.4Ghz band is split into channels. These are pretty broad.. IIRC
5MHz or so.

Spektrum picks two of them, and uses them.
Simpler systems like Assan use just one.

Futaba FASST uses all of them in sequence.

Thats teh first bit.

The next bit is the modulation scheme. This is spread spectrum. There
are a number of digital numbers which, when convoluted with the incoming
digital signal to be sent, spread it out as a pseudo random spread
spectrum across the entire channel. To decode you deconvolute with the
same number.  I am not sure, but I suspect all systems from a given
manufacturer use the same spreading code. There are not enough spreading
codes to really use them to distinguish between transmitters at the field.

So, at this point we have the possibility of one, two or hopping
channel, and spread spectrum across the channel in use with a
deconvolution code being needed to pick the (digital) signal up.

The next stage is that the transmitters don't transmit all the time. Its
a bit like Ethernet. They transmit a burst of frames, all with error
correction and unique ID's associated with the transmitter. Binding a
receiver consists in it picking the largest local signal that fits its
manufacturers modulation scheme, and reading the transmitted code and
storing it. It then will, when switched on subsequently, scan all the
channels to find a transmitter it recognizes sending frames with that
number.

If frames get lost, or corrupted they are corrected, or discarded: Thus
'busy' airspace merely reduces the number of 'good' frames a receiver
gets. Response gets sluggish, but does not stop. Failure to receive ANY
vaid frames puts the receiver into failsafe.

In addition two systems - XPS and JETI, transmit back from the model to
the transmitter, and request re-transmits if frame are lost. I think.

I've been thinking about buying a large-ish RC
> trainer and I know at some point that I'd want to fit a 2.4GHz
> analogue video transmitter to it.  I'd rather not find out about
> incompatibilities the hard way, if you follow me.

You will. Basically a typical 2.4Ghz video signal will hog a complete
channel and saturate it. It is MUCH higher data rate that a RC TX. If
you are lucky and you have a spektrum or Futaba FASST system they will
select channels that are different (Spektrum) or hop past it (FASST).
However our experience with simple ASSAN single channel sets was
complete and utter loss of control. To the point where it never even got
launched :-)

To put it simply, the video transmitter will not allow any other
transmitter to use that *channel*. If your set is good, or detects that
and uses another channel (switch video on before transmitter) or uses
two channels or hops you *may* get away with it. BUT having 100mW of
2.4Ghz power transmitting next to even a next door channel at a few
picowatts sensitivity, is not ideal. Its highly likely range will be
seriously reduced.

We didnt have huge resoures to ursue: we equipped the plane with an old
35Mhz set, and flew it..er..out of range! (headset stuff) fortunately
the camera showed where it had landed more or less...about 3 miles away :)

NOTE that this sort of irresponsible behaviour..flying a RC model out of
sight, probably violates your insurance. It's a lot of fun though.

> Chris
KGB - 01 Jan 2009 09:39 GMT
<SNIP>
>We didnt have huge resoures to ursue: we equipped the plane with an old
>35Mhz set, and flew it..er..out of range! (headset stuff) fortunately
>the camera showed where it had landed more or less...about 3 miles away :)
>
>NOTE that this sort of irresponsible behaviour..flying a RC model out of
>sight, probably violates your insurance. It's a lot of fun though.

Hi

OT but when I built my very first RC plane equipped with brand new
proportional RC gear (so long ago it was a 27Mhz set with none of your
new fangled gadgetry like reversing switches, dual rates etc) an
experienced flyer taught me to fly.

On one of my very early flights, my instructor, seeing that I was
managing OK, allowed himself to get distracted and chat to somebody a
few yards away.  Eventually I gave a strangled cry for help, closely
followed by a louder yell, whereupon the instructor returned and said,
"OK, I'm back - where the hell is it".  I had allowed the model to get
so far away it had vanished - nothing in sight and just the very faint
sound of an engine, getting even fainter. After a few seconds of
stunned "panic", he grabbed the trannie, estimated a 180-degree turn
and, without touching the elevator (in those days RC models were very
stable being little more than guided free-flight models) we waited -
and waited - and waited.

Eventually the faint engine noise got louder until a moving speck in
the sky appeared, at which point the engine stopped - obviously out of
fuel.  We carried on waiting until the model was recognisable and
eventually it did a superb power off landing at our feet; at which
point we packed up and went home deciding not to bother with the range
check we had been planning for the RC gear - yes I realize that a
range test should have been done BEFORE flying, but we were very young
and keen to get the thing in the air!!!

Regards

P.S The above is not quite as bad as the owner of a local model shop
who was once spotted gazing out to sea clutching  a Tx whilst his
friend stood alongside him looking through binoculars muttering "Left
a bit; touch of up elevator, right a bit" etc!!!!!!

KGB
 
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