 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups General ModelsRailroadsRocketsRadio Controlled Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater ModelsModelGeeks.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Model Forum / General / Models / July 2005Lathe & Mill
Hi has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd as I am just trying to set up a small home workshop the machines I have been looking at are the 626 turret mill and the 920 lathe has anyone any experience with these are they any good thanks for your help nick  SignatureNick Holden Banbury (UK) nick@holden1.net http://community.webshots.com/user/nickholden >Hi >has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >thanks for your help >nick Nick Mixed views. A search on Chester in the group archives should give all flavours of opinion. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.rec.models.engineering?hl=en&lr= Regards Charles Visit http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk The free pages to buy and sell workshop equipment > >Hi > >has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > opinion. > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.rec.models.engineering?hl=en&lr= These will probably summarize as - the machines are o.k. provided you don't expect miracles and don't flog them. - Chester's delivery, after-sales service and spares supply can be diabolical. I've had a Chester lathe-mill for five years and been satisfied with the machine itself. I seldom try to hold tolerances better than a thou and don't take heavy cuts. After five years' regular use, there has been no deterioration in performance. It was well worth the money, and a damn sight easier than restoring a couple of clapped-out machines to give me the same facilities at the same cost. Delivery was very slow; no assistance was provided to get the thing to the workshop, although it was promised; it usually takes Chester several tries to supply even the simplest spare - like T-bolts. The lathe tools supplied with the m/c were rubbish. i bought a chester conquest and it was atrocious. it constantly neede maintaining and burnt out a motor and controller after 18 months. get secondhand myford.i now have a myford ML10 and it is far superior! -- bolma Bought a Warco BH600 lathe and a Chester 626 mill, Warco were no problems but Chester did not deliver on the day they said they would, the machine was faulty and the finish of the paint is poor. Got it all sorted now and the machine does all I want it to. My advice would be to pay the little bit extra and get a Warco. Paul. > Hi > has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > thanks for your help > nick > Bought a Warco BH600 lathe and a Chester 626 mill, Warco were no problems > but Chester did not deliver on the day they said they would, the machine [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Paul. I think you have to be careful to generalise, some Warco machines are identical to Chester machines just a different colour. I think the key difference from my experience to date is that Warco tend to know what they are selling and feel an obligation to help when you have a problem. Steve Steve, You may be right but my experience of comparing the two companies' machines is that although they are essentially the same, the finish on the Warco item is much better. It may amount to just a bit more filler in the castings and a better thickness of paint but it may also indicate a general increase in quality control. Having said that I have machines from both companies and have to say that, finish aside, they have both performed well enough. My small Chester mill needed to be completely resprayed to increase the paint thickness in order to make it durable (also to reduce the amount of white, which is not a great colour to use in an engineering workshop!). Overall, I agree with Paul, if the price difference is not too great, buy the Warco. But if you have time on your hands and fancy stripping, refinishing and rebuilding your machine, save the extra money and buy the Chester. Mark > Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Mark Last time I made a comparion (at a ME show), the Warco and Chester lathe/mills were not identical: hence the choice of the Chester. After five years, there is hardly a mark on my Chester Lathe/Mill paintwork, and it gets used almost daily. I have a Chester Lathe, Mill (now superceded with a Warco item) and a multi-former. I've found them pretty good as long as you're not expecting a rolls Royce for mini costs. They all need some finishing to make them easier to use (simple stuff such as lever screws instead of the supplied allen heads etc.) bit nothing major. The finish is not as good as the Warco equivalents. Overall they work, they are, after all, only the same Chinese/Taiwanese stuff that everyone else is selling. I've heard some things about their after sales service that doesn't sound too impressive but fortunately I've never had to use it. I've never had any delivery problems with them, they have always delivered on the day they said they would. Although I had some minor issues with Warco on delivery, I would seriously look at their equivalent machines as their build quality seems to be very much better, although their prices are slightly higher to compensate but I understand that their after sales services is excellent (again, I haven't had to use it). I hope it helps Mark >Hi >has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >thanks for your help >nick Well after reading some of these remarks with the usual Chester / Warco remarks I'd like to add something. First off we are talking cheap import models here, in fact they are not even cheap, they are ridiculously cheap. Lets take a lathe something along the style of a Myford. On one hand we have the Warco / Chester offering at around £850 and on the other we have the Myford at around £5,000 to £7,000 depending on spec. But it doesn't stop there. the C/W series are complete with chucks steadies etc, the Myford isn't. So just on price it's obvious that there will be a difference and this shows in the fit and finish area's more than anything else. As regards main machining I dare say they are just as good. remember these are being made on state of the art CNC machining centre's and CNC grinders capable of working to sub micron level. These are the type of machine only seen in the West in R&D and Aerospace applications and believe me they aren't operating for £20 per hour. Myfords on the other hand are still using the same machinery they were using 30 years ago but it now has 30 years more wear on it. Now lets take service and faults. To do this we will have to split into three entities as each company operates differently. Warco operation is well known as is there support but even they get complaints because they are working to a price. Chester is similar but what a lot of people don't realise is they have their own factory out in China with one of the Chester guys there full time. Chester also sell far more industrial machines than hobby machines. Were you see complains to these people remember that they are minute compared to sales. Myford is a much reduced company from what it was, staff is around 15 to 17 total from a workforce of 400 plus a few years ago. Production is limited and at the moment there is a waiting list as there are a few people already waiting on machines ordered. They are no immune from complains either. Can you remember that post on here about two years ago where that guy had bought a new lathe and it wouldn't screwcut correctly ? Mark Rand borrowed a gear off someone and went and sorted it. Myfords were to busy !!! You will never stop people complaining about machines, most are retired with too much time on their hands. That time would be better spent addressing issues like value for money. Spend £850 for a complete machine and I mean complete and you have the difference between that and £7,000 to play with. Don't expect that £7,000 machine for £850, if you get close then you have scored. -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ > >Hi > >has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >thanks for your help > >nick > Well after reading some of these remarks with the usual Chester / > Warco remarks I'd like to add something. > First off we are talking cheap import models here, in fact they are > not even cheap, they are ridiculously cheap. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > But it doesn't stop there. the C/W series are complete with chucks > steadies etc, the Myford isn't. > So just on price it's obvious that there will be a difference and this > shows in the fit and finish area's more than anything else. > As regards main machining I dare say they are just as good. > remember these are being made on state of the art CNC machining > centre's and CNC grinders capable of working to sub micron level. > These are the type of machine only seen in the West in R&D and > Aerospace applications and believe me they aren't operating for £20 > per hour. > Myfords on the other hand are still using the same machinery they were > using 30 years ago but it now has 30 years more wear on it. > Now lets take service and faults. To do this we will have to split > into three entities as each company operates differently. > Warco operation is well known as is there support but even they get > complaints because they are working to a price. > Chester is similar but what a lot of people don't realise is they have > their own factory out in China with one of the Chester guys there full > time. > Chester also sell far more industrial machines than hobby machines. > Were you see complains to these people remember that they are minute > compared to sales. > Myford is a much reduced company from what it was, staff is around 15 > to 17 total from a workforce of 400 plus a few years ago. Production [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Mark Rand borrowed a gear off someone and went and sorted it. > Myfords were to busy !!! > You will never stop people complaining about machines, most are > retired with too much time on their hands. > That time would be better spent addressing issues like value for > money. > Spend £850 for a complete machine and I mean complete and you have the > difference between that and £7,000 to play with. > Don't expect that £7,000 machine for £850, if you get close then you > have scored. Its a pity about Myford, very nice people to deal with and you very seldom, if ever, have to deal with them because their lathes are/were first class, mine is forty odd years old. Unfortunately schools no longer buy lathes and technical colleges are now pseudo universities offering courses in media studies etc. No volume, same overheads, the price has to go up. Moore and Wright is another name that springs to mind, I have one inch and two inch micrometers purchased from birthday money at the age of fifteen, fifty five years ago, still in use and as good as they were when new. The same can be said of many things, Diston wood saws, Stanley chisels and screwdrivers, Britool spanners etc etc etc. In my younger days the advice was to buy the best and it will last you a lifetime. Current advice seems to be to buy cheap and throw it away when it ceases to work or another more glamorous object appears. This is all fine but we have to remember that the earths physical resources are finite and our present generation worldwide appear to have little thought about those who follow. That being said I think the advice to buy the best has much going for it. Donald, South Uist Some really good points coming out in this discussion that for once goes beyond the "mine is best" syndrome. Some 20 years ago after a series of secondhand (very) lathes that were all a disaster of one type or another I bought a brand new Myford (Speed 10), the cost was £550 for the basic machine. If one takes the usual "money doubles every 7 years" the equivalent today would be £4400, not far from where a Speed 10 would be in the market if it were still made. A couple of years later I obtained (at almost no cost) an import 920 type lathe and so for some 15 years I used these two machines side by side. I think one has to think very carefully what you want the machine for, if you just need to turn the odd component and have the time and patience to accept the minor limitations of the lighter build of the import lathe, then I found it would produce work every bit as accurate as the Myford. If you want to do more than just turning then the Myford, or rather the accessories available for it came into its' own. The Myford was much more forgiving of milling and boring for example. The 920 could be encouraged to do it but it objected and is a much less flexible design. With the Myford (particularly the 7 series) you are buying into a "system" much like when I bought an Olympus OM2 some 25 years ago, the basic camera was excellent but the accessories available for it made it the entry point for a superb system that would cover almost any aspect of photography you might want. If it can be done then someone has done it (and written about it) on a Myford, of course that DOES NOT mean it can't also be done on a modern import. To balance this one needs to remember that a 920 lathe and a 626/VMC mill together will be half the cost of a new basic Myford so, if space is not a problem, this "system" argument will not be a major player in the decision process. Another point worth considering is the re-sale value if (when) you decide to move to something bigger/better. When I took early retirement a couple of years ago and planned to spend much more time in my little workshop I decided that both machines had to go but for very different reasons. The Myford because it was just too small and basic and the 920 because I didn't enjoy using it, and enjoyment is the basic reason I want to be in the workshop at all. The Speed 10 I replaced with another Myford, a Super 7 (secondhand) and the 920 with a Boxford AUD. I find both machines a joy to use. The Myford sold instantly without advertising to a friend at a value (his valuation) well above what I paid for it and above the cost of a new 920. The 920 is still here looking for somewhere new to live. Although it is still an accurate machine it seems the chucks and motor are worth more than the whole machine. Seems a pity but my plan at the moment is to use it for a bit of wood turning. So from my experience, if the machines are mainly used to support another main interest then I see nothing wrong with the import machines. If however, using the machines is the major interest then I believe investing in a top quality machine is worthwhile. Unless you are very lucky or have good contacts this is likely to cost a good deal more than £700/1500 when the required tooling is added even at second hand prices. I also believe that for someone just starting out and not sure if this will develop into a major interest then the import route could well be the best. The machines might not be perfect but they will be capable of accurate work when you are. If the hobby becomes a passion then you will want to change it eventually anyway. I agree with John S the retirement market must be difficult to sell into, we all have a lifetime of experiences both good and bad that condition our thinking and given that most retired people have a reduced income we also want the best possible deal for our money. This doesn't always equate to best value for money however and I suspect that many buy what they have always wanted without doing any sort of cost/value analysis. If I don't buy what I want now when will I buy it? I believe that these import machines at the moment are absolutely superb value for money and will certainly do the job. That however, is not always the test and only you (the buyer) can decide what the test should be. I have bought from both companies mentioned and got what I paid for. The finish on the Warco equipment is slightly better and they are a very friendly company to deal with. The equipment from both worked equally well and I haven't had any problems to sort out. If I was to buy what I need it would be import, if I was to buy what I want the money goes to Myford but, of course I'm different - we all are. Regards Keith >I agree with John S the retirement market must be difficult to sell >into, we all have a lifetime of experiences both good and bad that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >cost/value analysis. If I don't buy what I want now when will I buy >it? You have answered your own question here, if it was a question <g> You say retired people are on a reduced income but think about this. If it was not for these imports, at whatever quality, then most wouldn't get a chance to enter this hobby. Lets take the two options open if we leave the imports out. One we can rush out and buy a new Myford that's if they can actually deliver before the undertaker catches up. Last call on this was the Co-op funeral service was quoting 2 weeks for a cremation, Myfords were quoting 6 months for a non guaranteed delivery. Second option is to buy secondhand. As Keith has said in an earlier post about resale values, the better machines keep them so to get decent you need to pay more. From reading the adverts it looks like a lot more than import to get decent. So because money is tight you buy to a price. Now you have a worn British lathe, made umpteen years ago on machinery left over from WWII. So now you are at the same point or probably worse than an import. all the things people remark on with import faults, tatty paint, marks on bed and slides you have now bought AND you are proud of it. So the next few weeks is spent putting this back to rights as much as you can, given you don't posess bed grinders, line borers and measuring equipment able to do this. But no one moans about this. Slightest scratch on an import and whey hey lets slag these off on the group. These people like Chester, Warco, Arc Euro etc are actually doing you all a favour selling these lower cost machines. If it was not for these then many wouldn't be able to get a decent workshop set up. Think about this. Lets take the early mill drill, various models, various names and about three different sizes. All had faults according to many. Crap build, sand in the castings, you lost register when you moved the head etc, etc, ad nauseam. Shipped over here literally by the many thousands, everyone was and still is selling these, even Seeley. Where are they?????? I deal a lot with scrap people and have never seen a scrap one yet. Hardly ever show up in adverts........ When you consider that since these have been imported as I say they have been in their thousands, now take Tom Senior, how many do you think they made ? , as many as these mill drills coming from about 10 factories in 5 countries ? No way but you see plenty of Tom Senior's for sale. So where are these crap mill drills? The answer is the people who bought them still have them. If they are that bad why haven't they flooded the market with them? The answer is they aren't that bad. >I believe that these import machines at the moment are absolutely >superb value for money and will certainly do the job. That however, is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >was to buy what I need it would be import, if I was to buy what I want >the money goes to Myford but, of course I'm different - we all are. good point.. >Regards > >Keith -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ >Think about this. Lets take the early mill drill, various models, >various names and about three different sizes. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Where are they?????? Hey, that Union Jag drill press you sold me a couple of years ago had sand in the castings... the column had the entire core still in it! Still using it though. Mark Rand RTFM >>Think about this. Lets take the early mill drill, various models, >>various names and about three different sizes. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Mark Rand >RTFM That's ballast, there's a difference <g> -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ > >>Think about this. Lets take the early mill drill, various models, > >>various names and about three different sizes. > >>All had faults according to many. > >>Crap build, sand in the castings, you lost register when you moved the > >>head etc, etc, ad nauseam. > >Hey, that Union Jag drill press you sold me a couple of years ago had sand in > >the castings... the column had the entire core still in it! Still using it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > John Stevenson > Nottingham, England. John/Mark Thats the real reason for all the complaints about imports and sand then - the "ballast" is missing or "leaking". An interesting response (or lack of it) to these "some imports are OK and are actually good value for money" comments, perhaps the "silent majority" are finally having their say. Hope so because I totally agree with John that without these affordable machines many would be forced to remain as "dreamers" and never experience the pleasure of filling the house with swarf. The major benefit of this side affect to our hobby is of course that SWMBO is so busy moaning about the " sharp bits" in her carpet that she totally forgets about all those jobs you haven't had time to do. Some hope!! Regards Keith > >>Think about this. Lets take the early mill drill, various models, > >>various names and about three different sizes. > >>All had faults according to many. > >>Crap build, sand in the castings, you lost register when you moved the > >>head etc, etc, ad nauseam. > >Hey, that Union Jag drill press you sold me a couple of years ago had sand in > >the castings... the column had the entire core still in it! Still using it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > John Stevenson > Nottingham, England. John/Mark Thats the real reason for all the complaints about imports and sand then - the "ballast" is missing or "leaking". An interesting response (or lack of it) to these "some imports are OK and are actually good value for money" comments, perhaps the "silent majority" are finally having their say. Hope so because I totally agree with John that without these affordable machines many would be forced to remain as "dreamers" and never experience the pleasure of filling the house with swarf. The major benefit of this side affect to our hobby is of course that SWMBO is so busy moaning about the " sharp bits" in her carpet that she totally forgets about all those jobs you haven't had time to do. Some hope!! Regards Keith >An interesting response (or lack of it) to these "some imports are OK >and are actually good value for money" comments, perhaps the "silent [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Keith A lot of it is that peoples expectations don't match their wallet <g> True we would all like the latest, all singing, all dancing, super finished machine and still have change out of a quid for a pint <g> , sorry - won't happen. True there was some shite out there in the early days, mismatched holes, rat holes in castings etc but mainstream things have changed and it's all based on money. Behind all this is cash flow and investment. There is still a lot of money in the western world from investments, pensions, shareholders etc. Now these companies that handle this have to make a return on their money to pay out dividends and pensions etc. So where to invest it? No good in the west we are a declining manufacturing nation by virtue we haven't had investment capital available, governments haven't been receptive and unions and health and safety have generally stiffed things up big time, - but lets not get political here, just filling the gaps in. So now our investment company is looking to give money away to make more. So they go East and say do you want 10 million dollars if we can get more back. So this Eastern company says yes, goes out and buys the latest brand new computerised machine and starts churning out perfect parts by the million and earns a good return on the capital. Now straight away they are not one rung up the ladder from us but five. That machine they bought we have never seen, no one over here has had the balls to buy one because of high overheads. After they have got over early teething troubles they are churning out parts to a far greater accuracy than we can and were able to do on 40 year old semi auto machines. Take a classic example like a spindle. Our method is to rough turn, send for hardening, collect and grind to finish. possibly a three day turn around and 2 to 3 hours involved per part. The new method is to take a pre hardened blank and hard turn to finished size, accurate to a few microns, same day turn around and possibly 7 to 15 minutes per part. Where they come unstuck is finish, One coat of paint and out the door. After all it is only a lathe isn't it. Now I know there are anally retentive purists out there that *need* a finish on a machine that's better than on their car but is a £500 paint job going to get you any better a job ? -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ >A lot of it is that peoples expectations don't match their wallet <g> >True we would all like the latest, all singing, all dancing, super [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >finish on a machine that's better than on their car but is a £500 >paint job going to get you any better a job ? Well spoken that man! Signaturecerberus On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:54:41 GMT, John Stevenson <john@stevenson-engineers.co.uk> wrote: >A lot of it is that peoples expectations don't match their wallet <g> >True we would all like the latest, all singing, all dancing, super [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >holes, rat holes in castings etc but mainstream things have changed >and it's all based on money. I bought a Mill/Drill from Warco, just for fun. It's been lots of fun. What came in the box? 63mm face mill, 16mm drill chuck, pozilock chuk and collet set, and an tilting machine vice (which was utter crap!) however, you get the thing out of the crate on the bench and start to play. I probably should have gone for an R8 rather than MT3 taper but thats me not WARCO's "fault". I can't afford a new "Western" made mill or accomodate one. Never mind for fun. I'm planning on getting a Chester lathe next (DB10G), (to replace my old American centre lathe) again fully equipped (chucks, centres etc) with calibration certificates and lots of change out of a grand. At that price, its pretty much paid for itself once you have had 12 months fun turning perfectly good barstock into swarf and chips, never mind produced anything useful! John S spot on as usual. Steve This is very true, investment in manufacturing in this country is virtually nil, but the Chinese are spending big time. They will spend whatever is necessaery to get the right machine to do the job. Last week I was at a company who manufacture top quality measuring equipment, serious kit (tens of thousands per machine). Their main market is China. I was talking recently to someone in CAD/CAM software, specialised software for mould tools, and they have more users in China than anywhere else (again, £10K plus per seat stuff). We still have a core of high quality, small volume manufacturing -but mass production in this country is dead. Due to all sorts of global economic reasons, and succsessive governments trying to kill it -somewhat ironicaly Labour seem to be trying even harder than the last lot......must stop now, I feel a terrible rant coming on Regards Kevin >Behind all this is cash flow and investment. > This is very true, investment in manufacturing in this country is > virtually nil, but the Chinese are spending big time. They will spend [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > >Behind all this is cash flow and investment. Behind all this is a committment to quality, right from top management. The decline of UK manufacturing is due to the lack of both understanding and committment to quality by UK management. How else can Japanese firms make cars in the UK when the British-owned/managed firms can't? That's another good point, for many years the attitude of the British car manufacturers was that people should be grateful for what they got (however crap), and with strikes every other day you were lucky to get anything. They just assumed we would all buy whatever they made. They just laughed at the idea of the japenese making cars, and here we are 30 years on begging the Chinese to help us rescue the last remains of the British car industry (volume manufacturing, before eveyone shouts what about Morgan). Another great feat pulled off by the Japenese, and now being coppied by the Chinese, is that they achieve this quality without the item being more expensive. The Japenese were way ahead of any other car makers in the fitting of what we called extras as standard. And, as John has mentioned, look at the stuff you get included with these Chinese lathes. It would probably add the cost of the Chinese lathe to the price of a Myford to add all the extras they throw in. Regards Kevin >Behind all this is a committment to quality, right from top management. > >The decline of UK manufacturing is due to the lack of both understanding and >committment to quality by UK management. >How else can Japanese firms make cars in the UK when the >British-owned/managed firms can't? I am currently working in production test for a Japanese company, and the degree to which Statistical Process Control is employed is amazing. They are deliberately seeking out any aspect of production and production test where the C(pk) is less than 2.0, because in the long-term (P(pk)) it saves money. I've never had to revise so much statistical theory in jobs over the last 35 years! I once worked for a disreputable manufacturer of railway signalling equipment in the UK whose attitude to an item of equipment missing out on final inspection was, "Send the paperwork anyway, no-one will no any difference". That attitude has finally caught up with them, and there have been widespread redundancies there. > That's another good point, for many years the attitude of the British > car manufacturers was that people should be grateful for what they got [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of the British car industry (volume manufacturing, before eveyone > shouts what about Morgan). That's true of all the automotive industry these days.They all work to basically the same standard. Although good for quality, it does make it impossible for a small/medium sized company to be a tier one automotive supplier as they simply cannot afford the cost of suitable quality accreditations. Regards Kevin >I am currently working in production test for a Japanese company, >and the degree to which Statistical Process Control is employed is >amazing. They are deliberately seeking out any aspect of production >and production test where the C(pk) is less than 2.0, because in the >long-term (P(pk)) it saves money. I've never had to revise so much >statistical theory in jobs over the last 35 years! > That's another good point, for many years the attitude of the British > car manufacturers was that people should be grateful for what they got [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >How else can Japanese firms make cars in the UK when the > >British-owned/managed firms can't? The essential point about quality that escapes UK management is that maximum quality equates to minimum cost. Once you get the product design right for the market and then make it to that design without deviation, all costs go down. The right product sells; you don't throw away loads of scrap; and you don't need massive customer services resources to pick up the bits afterwards. Most UK management spends much of the time they don't use promoting their careers to cleaning up messes. Problem is that a business can't maximize quality in isolation. It needs quality supplies and customers who appreciate quality products. If your customers' attitude is 'never mind the quality, what's the price?' and your suppliers try to slip in rubbish with every batch, you are spitting into the wind. That's not the whole story. There will always be some deviation that is not under your control, even if it is the (for this NG) the wear on the tool. This causes a statistical deviation from your ideal. This is covered in Statistical Process Control and the "Six Sigma"/ "C(pk)=2.0" philosophy for each parameter that you are measuring as a guide to your own quality. > The essential point about quality that escapes UK management is that > maximum > quality equates to minimum cost. Once you get the product design right for > the market and then make it to that design without deviation, all costs go > down. > That's not the whole story. There will always be some deviation > that is not under your control, even if it is the (for this NG) the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > the market and then make it to that design without deviation, all costs go > > down. There are specific techniques for coping with the effects of tool wear. The SPC criteria you have just discovered have been standard in many companies for the last 25 years to my certain knowledge and that's only when I discovered them. Your are falling into the usual trap of inventing excuses for not achieving the required quality! Not at all. The statistical analyses that I have discussed are put in place to help ensure that not only is the desired quality achieved today, but that it will continue to be achieved in the future. >> That's not the whole story. There will always be some deviation >> that is not under your control, even if it is the (for this NG) the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > excuses > for not achieving the required quality! > Not at all. The statistical analyses that I have discussed are put in place > to help ensure that not only is the desired quality achieved today, but > that it will continue to be achieved in the future. The statistical analyses you have discussed date from WWI. The 'Six sigma' catch phrase dates from the 1980s. Neither has ensured the desired quality, not today, not yesterday and they won't tomorrow with major changes in senior management culture. Statistics, methods, and catch phrases are irrelevant unless and until the CEO and the rest of top management become truly committed to quality as the primary tool for achieving a company's objectives. Without that, the rest is just show for the ISO9000 certification (and that usually becomes invalid at 5 o'clock on the day it was achieved). While quality is just something top management try to dump on the workforce before going out to play golf, and junk is shipped out to make up the end-of-month figures, all the quality training is wasted. Why? Because not only is the CEO the role model for his subordinates, especially those trying to climb the ladder, but the majority of decisions that affect quality are made at the top. > >> That's not the whole story. There will always be some deviation > >> that is not under your control, even if it is the (for this NG) the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > excuses > > for not achieving the required quality! That is the difference between your company and the Japanese company in which I am currently working, perhaps? >> Not at all. The statistical analyses that I have discussed are put in > place [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Neither has ensured the desired quality, not today, not yesterday and they > won't tomorrow with major changes in senior management culture. Actually, I am the CEO of my company! > That is the difference between your company and the Japanese > company in which I am currently working, perhaps? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Neither has ensured the desired quality, not today, not yesterday and they > > won't tomorrow with major changes in senior management culture. > If your >customers' attitude is 'never mind the quality, what's the price?' and your >suppliers try to slip in rubbish with every batch, you are spitting into the >wind. That, unfortunately, is where we are with a lot of customers these days. Peter >They just laughed at the idea of the japenese making cars, and here we >are 30 years on begging the Chinese to help us rescue the last remains >of the British car industry (volume manufacturing, before eveyone >shouts what about Morgan). It was perhaps sad to see a new and unregistered Morgan in a showroom, as I did, a few days ago. Whatever happened to that four year waiting list which was always held up to show that they were doing it right? Mike SignatureMike Whittome >How else can Japanese firms make cars in the UK when the >British-owned/managed firms can't? There was a lot of government grants and tax breaks involved in both Nissan and Toyota's setting up of new factories. Honda seems to be the only one that didn't get a huge handout and continued assistance. Starting out from scratch is always easier (as has already been mentioned) than continuing with old plant and factories. GM spent a mint at Luton, but the car (Vectra) just didn't sell, so they closed the car side completely, but the van side (IBC) seems to be doing OK producing Renault, Vauxhall and Nissan vans. Peter > >How else can Japanese firms make cars in the UK when the > >British-owned/managed firms can't? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Peter There have to be breaks because working in the UK (low quality) environment means that it is difficult to approach the same quality levels as those achieved in the (high-quality) environment in Japan! Tax breaks and subsidy don't improve quality: just the opposite, in fact. Look at the defence industry! > Hi > has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > thanks for your help > nick I've a lathe (12" geared head) I purchased from Chester several years ago. I had quite a few problems with it but Chester's service was excellent - they fixed everything very quickly, and even gave me some tooling to compensate for the problems. One problem announced itself with a big bang, a puff of smoke, and a totally dead motor. Various remote tests confirmed a faulty relay, which Chester fixed by sending an engineer to my house in the Midlands; a round trip of more than 200 miles. He changed the relay and everything was fine - but the interesting thing was that the faulty relay wasn't a noname Chinese concoction, but a genuine Siemens product. Since then I've purchased quite a few things from them and have always been satisfied with the product and the service. One job I did on the lathe was to reduce a metre of 1.5" stainless bar to 1". It was accurate to 1 thou over the entire length. I've never dealt with Warco. SignatureRegards, Gary Wooding (To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address) >Hi >has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >thanks for your help >nick I`m in a similar situation as I`m saving up to buy a Mill. I`ve been to Chesters and the 626 seems a good buy for the price. I also like the look of the Lux Geared head machine http://www.chesteruk.net/LUX%20Geared%20Head%20Mill%20Specification.htm I think I prefer the 626 as Its complete with Stand and light. Has anyone bought one of these machines and what do they reckon to their performance? Also what state are the machines delivered in? Are they built or do they require much work to assemble? One last Question - What is the advantage of R8 over MT spindles? Thanks Paul Large availability of tooling, R8 is the standard taper on Bridgeport turret mills so there is lots of tooling around -which means it is cheap. It also releases more easily, morse tapers are self-locking wheras R8 isn't (although anyone wh has got an R8 collet stuck may disagree!). Regards Kevin >One last Question - What is the advantage of R8 over MT spindles? > >Hi > >has anyone had anything to do with Chester UK Ltd [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Thanks > Paul These machines are supplied complete and crated. In my case, this meant having to help the delivery van driver unload the thing and dump it on the pavement outside my house. Then I had to figure how to get it up the drive and into the workshop. This was despite assurances from Chester that the delivery crew would have facilities to put the machine where I wanted it. > These machines are supplied complete and crated. In my case, this meant > having to help the delivery van driver unload the thing and dump it on the > pavement outside my house. Then I had to figure how to get it up the drive > and into the workshop. This was despite assurances from Chester that the > delivery crew would have facilities to put the machine where I wanted it. Yeah, that was my experience, they delivered and told me it would arrive on a tail lift truck... Did it hell, I couldn't hold my end of the crate, so it crashed to the deck. At least the crate was so tough, no damage to the machine, but I wasn't impressed. Joules > > These machines are supplied complete and crated. In my case, this meant > > having to help the delivery van driver unload the thing and dump it on the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Joules This reflects the comments about quality earlier in the thread. The machines are quality machines: you get what you expect and pay for. The agents have no idea about quality so mess the customer about. >> > These machines are supplied complete and crated. In my case, this meant >> > having to help the delivery van driver unload the thing and dump it on [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >are quality machines: you get what you expect and pay for. The agents have >no idea about quality so mess the customer about. Thanks for the replies. When i`ve saved my money (Around December - all being well) I will have to decide. As I said the 626 looks good value for the money. I`m not looking for anyhting too industrial as it has to fit in my garage and has to run on 240v 1ph. I bought a Milling video from ebay a while ago and it showed a nice table top Turret type milling machine of the Knee type. Looked well made and all the table movements were manual. Also looked a good size table. Has anybody seen this video and can they identify the make/model of machine? I may decide to go the route of a tidy secondhand machine - does anybody have any recomendations? Thanks again Paul > Thanks for the replies. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Paul Paul, I am hoping to get my mill in September, it's going to be the Warco VMC (same design as 626). 240vac, and I can shift it around my workshop/garage. I like the finishing touches on this machine, better hand wheels and much larger splash/swarf tray. I'm also a sucker for green machines...but thats another story. Joules >> Thanks for the replies. >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Joules Joules, have you seen the VM26 on the toolco website http://www.toolco.co.uk/VM26turretmill/vm26turretmill.htm On special at the Moment £975 + Vat + Del. This also looks like the same machine? Has anyone experience of this supplier? Do all these machines come from the same factory and why is there a difference in finish quality if so? Cheers Paul > > Joules, > have you seen the VM26 on the toolco website [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Paul Yep I saw this machine recently, on the web, I've no experience with this company what so ever, and these mills do vary from good, to very rough, if the corners get cut. Can't comment on it, but I would still rather spend a little more and get the Warco, not much in it if you take the price of the power feed that Warco are doing with the VMC, I just hope that offer last's till I can get mine. Joules >> > Joules, >> have you seen the VM26 on the toolco website [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Joules Sounds like a good idea Joules. Keep me posted on your progress. I`m hoping they might have some reductions/offers around Xmas Time! All the best Paul |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.