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Model Forum / General / Models / November 2006More gear related stuff.
I discovered yesterday that the previous owners of my Hardinge had used a mixture of grease, water and swarf as lubricants, instead of oil in the apron. This has lead to somewhat triangular tooth forms on some of the gears and severe pitting on all of them. I'm also fairly sure that the brothers Hardinge hadn't originally designed 5 thou of clearance for half inch needle roller bearings. Although that might have come from using special needle rollers with flats on the rollers! I'm going to set up for gear cutting on the shaper. I have no choice on these gears since they are 22DP pitch with 29DP tooth heights (22/29 Fellows stub form). Even If I substituted full depth gears for the stub tooth form, 22DP is an uncommon pitch on the left hand side of the Atlantic and almost unheard of over here. I'm enjoying this project, it's turning into a nice little challenge. Mark Rand RTFM >I discovered yesterday that the previous owners of my Hardinge had used a >mixture of grease, water and swarf as lubricants, instead of oil in the apron. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >an uncommon pitch on the left hand side of the Atlantic and almost unheard of >over here. I've just very successfully eliminated my database of about 170 gearcutters from my hard drive, as well as defragging the disc afterwards :-((( I was just trying to make a bit of space on the disc, it must have been in the 'wrong' directory, and not being 'vital' it wasn't backed up. Silly me. There might actually be some 22dp cutters there, but it's not a 5 minute job going through them all again & recataloguing them. >I'm enjoying this project, it's turning into a nice little challenge. Good luck, I like little challenges myself Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >I discovered yesterday that the previous owners of my Hardinge had used a >mixture of grease, water and swarf as lubricants, instead of oil in the apron. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I'm enjoying this project, it's turning into a nice little challenge. If you decide to chicken out, I do have 22dp hobs, a standard one at 20 deg., and one labelled as .098" depth (just less than standard, but much more than 29dp) for 14.5deg. If you did the groundwork of turning up blanks & a suitable arbor, and *if* I have the right changewheels, it wouldn't be much of a job for me to run them off for you. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >>I'm going to set up for gear cutting on the shaper. I have no choice on these >>gears since they are 22DP pitch with 29DP tooth heights (22/29 Fellows stub [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Cheers >Tim Am I allowed to call it doing the job two or three months quicker, rather than chickening out? The tooth counts that I need, subject to me not having counted wrong, are:- 70 66x2 50 45 30 24x2 21 14x2 They can all be full form apart from one of the 14t pinions, that engages with the existing rack, That one can just get scalped to reduce the addendum. Assuming that those counts are possible, What sort of arbour dimensions do you need to mount on the hobbing machine? Got a bit confused today. I was making the shopping list of bearings to replace C/O Arc-Eurotrade. There are 20 assorted ball and needle roller bearings in the apron, cross-slide and top-slide. Two of the bearings seemed to be a weird size that I couldn't reconcile They seemed to be 1.260x.590. Turns out that that's 32x15mm. This is on an English assembled America lathe that was built sometimes between 1950 and 1960. I could understand later replacement parts, but it's hard to reconcile with the obvious stupidity that has lead to the damage of the gears and bearings. >>>I'm going to set up for gear cutting on the shaper. I have no choice on these >>>gears since they are 22DP pitch with 29DP tooth heights (22/29 Fellows stub [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >Assuming that those counts are possible, What sort of arbour dimensions do you >need to mount on the hobbing machine? I'll have a look tomorrow, see what wheels I can sort out. The arbor can be very simple, I'll take a pic & dimensions. >Got a bit confused today. I was making the shopping list of bearings to >replace C/O Arc-Eurotrade. There are 20 assorted ball and needle roller [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >replacement parts, but it's hard to reconcile with the obvious stupidity that >has lead to the damage of the gears and bearings. AIUI ball bearings started as being all metric, and roller bearings as Imperial. Of course there have been both types in both standards for donkeys' years, but it's quite common to find metric ball bearings on Imperial dimensioned equipment and I believe that is why. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >The arbor can be very simple, I'll take a pic & dimensions. A couple of bits of steel followed me home today. One bit too big and one bit too small. I'm setting up to cut slices off them and turn them to the right diameters and thicknesses. Let us know what dimensions I need for arbours and I can get to work on them as well. >>Got a bit confused today. I was making the shopping list of bearings to >>replace C/O Arc-Eurotrade. There are 20 assorted ball and needle roller [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >for donkeys' years, but it's quite common to find metric ball bearings >on Imperial dimensioned equipment and I believe that is why. That'd explain the measurements then. It's bad enough that 10-32UNF works with 3/16 BSF when the threads get a bit sloppy and 10-32ASME _almost_ goes with 2BA without wondering if you've measured press-fit bearing diameters wrong :-( In the case of the 10-32ASME/2BA closeness, the fact that a 2BA spanner fits perfectly on the locknuts on the 10-32 gib screws really does my head in.... Mark Rand RTFM >Got a bit confused today. I was making the shopping list of bearings to >replace C/O Arc-Eurotrade. There are 20 assorted ball and needle roller [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >replacement parts, but it's hard to reconcile with the obvious stupidity that >has lead to the damage of the gears and bearings. Hardly surprising as at the turn of the last century the Yanks couldn't make reliable bearings and had to turn to German imports. As they got better they used imperial ones but in a lot of cases the die was set for the continued use of metric sized bearings. The same applied to spark plugs. Ever wondered why we and the Yanks standardised on 18mm plugs and later 14mm ? Same thing, inferior insulators forced imports to be used. By the time Henry Ford got his act together and tried to introduce gas threaded plugs it was too late. -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ > >Got a bit confused today. I was making the shopping list of bearings to > >replace C/O Arc-Eurotrade. There are 20 assorted ball and needle roller [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > John Stevenson > Nottingham, England. Achtually ist vas der Swedes who converted the Yanks, SKF when asked to supply, said, ve already make metric sized bearings, zu vant imperial sizes? Ze come dearer. :-) Because the US auto industry was volume oriented they made the change.. Tom  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>I'm going to set up for gear cutting on the shaper. I have no choice on these >>>gears since they are 22DP pitch with 29DP tooth heights (22/29 Fellows stub [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >21 >14x2 70,50,45,30,24,21 no problem 66 & 14 I'll have to dig further, some numbers I can fiddle by using the feed change gears (finer pitch) with a conversion wheel. If I can't do that, we'd need to find a 66t and 28t from somewhere, they're 1.25 mod but Myford change wheels serve perfectly well, would only need them for a day or two & I'd cut myself a couple of change wheels. I'll have another look in the next few days. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >>Am I allowed to call it doing the job two or three months quicker, rather than >>chickening out? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Cheers >Tim Got a 94 T. If you use 28 teeth off that it will leave you 66, any good ? . -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ >>>Am I allowed to call it doing the job two or three months quicker, rather than >>>chickening out? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >. Brilliant! two stoned birds. Mark Rand RTFM >70,50,45,30,24,21 no problem >66 & 14 I'll have to dig further, some numbers I can fiddle by using [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs >Vintage diesel engine service I've got a 28t Myford wheel. I could get hold of a 33t 20DP from RDG or a 66t 1.25mod from HPC. Would either of those options work? Now I need to politely ask Macready's if they are willing to take this months pay cheque in exchange for some decent gear and pinion making steel. Regards Mark Rand RTFM >>70,50,45,30,24,21 no problem >>66 & 14 I'll have to dig further, some numbers I can fiddle by using [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I've got a 28t Myford wheel. I could get hold of a 33t 20DP from RDG or a 66t >1.25mod from HPC. Would either of those options work? 66t 1.25 would be the proper way. Without going out again & measuring, I think it's 12mm bore (I've made some sleeves for Myford gears),but I can sort that out. 33t *might* work, though I doubt it. I would have to try assembling the gears with the nearest size I have, to see if it's physically possible. >Now I need to politely ask Macready's if they are willing to take this months >pay cheque in exchange for some decent gear and pinion making steel. Do they respond to being asked nicely? <G> Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >66t 1.25 would be the proper way. Without going out again & measuring, >I think it's 12mm bore (I've made some sleeves for Myford gears),but I >can sort that out. >33t *might* work, though I doubt it. I would have to try assembling >the gears with the nearest size I have, to see if it's physically >possible. HPC standard for that size is 10mm pilot bore with no keyway, so that'd need tidying up to work. >>Now I need to politely ask Macready's if they are willing to take this months >>pay cheque in exchange for some decent gear and pinion making steel. > >Do they respond to being asked nicely? <G> > >Tim They usually seem to put the price up whatever I say to them. Trouble is that I've never bought more than 250kg at a time from them, and you don't get very good prices for tiny orders. Mark Rand RTFM >>>70,50,45,30,24,21 no problem >>>66 & 14 I'll have to dig further, some numbers I can fiddle by using [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >the gears with the nearest size I have, to see if it's physically >possible. >Tim Machine is setup at the moment for Myford gears before I pull it down to do some 16DP's. Do you want a 66 and a 28 knocking off ? If so what width and do you want a keyway.? -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ >>>>70,50,45,30,24,21 no problem >>>>66 & 14 I'll have to dig further, some numbers I can fiddle by using [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >Do you want a 66 and a 28 knocking off ? >If so what width and do you want a keyway.? My shout for the 66t if Tim can use it. Got a 28t from the Myford metric conversion set. Mark Rand RTFM >>>>I've got a 28t Myford wheel. I could get hold of a 33t 20DP from RDG or a 66t >>>>1.25mod from HPC. Would either of those options work? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >My shout for the 66t if Tim can use it. Got a 28t from the Myford metric >conversion set. It'll certainly do the job. Width is 12mm (non-critical), the bore should be 14mm but I've got some bushes for 5/8" if that's simpler for you. Keyway yes please, though I can do that if needed. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >>>66t 1.25 would be the proper way. Without going out again & measuring, >>>I think it's 12mm bore (I've made some sleeves for Myford gears),but I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Mark Rand >RTFM Gear's done, no answer on the width or keyway so I've made it so wide by about that big on the bore with no keyway. I'll post it to Tim in the next couple of days. -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ >>>>66t 1.25 would be the proper way. Without going out again & measuring, >>>>I think it's 12mm bore (I've made some sleeves for Myford gears),but I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >by about that big on the bore with no keyway. >I'll post it to Tim in the next couple of days. John I did post an answer on those, but perhaps it didn't show up at your end. 12mm thick, with keyway, 14mm bore if you weren't committed to 5/8". I'm sure I can make it fit, got a selection of hammer sizes <G> (as well as keyway broaches) Many thanks Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >>>My shout for the 66t if Tim can use it. Got a 28t from the Myford metric >>>conversion set. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Tim Steel's ordered from Macready's EN24T. 'Twas quite cheap, they took my youngest child as part payment. What sort of dimensions should I work to for arbours and what sort of minimum/maximum lengths, diameters and widths should I work to on gear blanks (other than DP+ 2xAddendum). Regards Mark Rand RTFM >>>>66t 1.25 would be the proper way. Without going out again & measuring, >>>>I think it's 12mm bore (I've made some sleeves for Myford gears),but I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >by about that big on the bore with no keyway. >I'll post it to Tim in the next couple of days. What do I owe you? Mark Rand RTFM >Now I need to politely ask Macready's if they are willing to take this months >pay cheque in exchange for some decent gear and pinion making steel. > >Regards >Mark Rand >RTFM I've got some 50mm EN19 which would do nicely for the smaller stuff that I could spare, how much do you need? It comes complete with a fresh patina of rust from my recent aquatic adventures. Peter >>Now I need to politely ask Macready's if they are willing to take this months >>pay cheque in exchange for some decent gear and pinion making steel. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Peter I've got some 60mm EN1A that got left outside... by the time I noticed, it was too late. Luckily a little dampness doesn't change the size of the stock much. I'll probably go for a length of 3 1/2" EN29 or EN32. If I'm lucky, Macreadys will have a part length I can have. At a later date, when I'm set up for it, I could do a 40DP 127/50t metric conversion set. The spare stuff will make good door stops :-) Mark Rand RTFM >>>Now I need to politely ask Macready's if they are willing to take this months >>>pay cheque in exchange for some decent gear and pinion making steel. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Mark Rand >RTFM I'll probably need a new typing finger as well. I meant to type EN19 like what you got. Not EN29 (unobtanium?). Mark Rand RTFM >>70,50,45,30,24,21 no problem >>66 & 14 I'll have to dig further, some numbers I can fiddle by using [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Mark Rand >RTFM Don't bother. Mild steel with modern case hardening to about 10 thou will outlive what you want to do with that machine. . -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ >>I've got a 28t Myford wheel. I could get hold of a 33t 20DP from RDG or a 66t >>1.25mod from HPC. Would either of those options work? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >. The gears are easy, the two 14t and the 21t pinion have a harder life. Luckily the pinions don't need 3 1/2" diameter stock to make them from :-). It might be childish of me, but I don't like buying less than full lengths of stock. I'll see what the nice sales lady says about the relative costs for the various grades on the bigger stuff. I could get some nice pieces from work. Trouble is, the stuff they tend to use for turbines is nigh-on bloody unmachinable :-(. Mark Rand RTFM >I'm enjoying this project, it's turning into a nice little challenge. Started turning the first gear blank today:- http://www.test-net.com/gear_blank.jpg Yes the swarf is blue, I seemed to be getting the best surface finish by running at 200 sfpm, 25 thou cut and leaning firmly into the cut. The little 1/4hp Hotpoint washing machine motor on that lathe was humming a merry tune :-) http://www.test-net.com/gear_blank_finish.jpg There is quite a bit of swarf to produce before all the blanks are ready for putting teeth on... A couple, like the one in the link, have things like cone clutches built in. Can you tell me what size I need to make the arbours Tim? Mark Rand RTFM >>I'm enjoying this project, it's turning into a nice little challenge. > >Started turning the first gear blank today:- > >http://www.test-net.com/gear_blank.jpg You are holding your mouth wrong....................... . -- Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England. Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ >>>I'm enjoying this project, it's turning into a nice little challenge. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >. Her indoors says 'How can you tell' :-) I was concentrating on making swarf when someone came in the shed door and started setting off cameras at me. Mark Rand RTFM >>I'm enjoying this project, it's turning into a nice little challenge. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Can you tell me what size I need to make the arbours Tim? To fit the gears <G> Actually one end needs to fit one of the collets I have. If you let me know what the bores are for the gears, I'll look to see if I have collets to suit. I usually put the blanks on the arbor & skim the OD in the lathe just to be sure they're running true with the bore, might be a bit late for that now :-( I'll send or post a pic of what's needed, it's not hard and fast as regards dimensions. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >>Can you tell me what size I need to make the arbours Tim? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Cheers >Tim Some of the gears have bores, some have integral shafts, some have hollow integral shafts... They all either have a bore of:- 3/8, 7/16, 1/2 or 5/8 or an OD of:- 3/8, 7/16, 1/2, 9/16, 5/8 or 3/4 or both. All in imperial inches! Longest integral shaft is a 1/2" OD x 4 1/2" long with a 21t gear on the end of it. Should I do some drawings or photos with dimensions on, so you can tell me if I need to modify any combinations that won't fit? Mark Rand RTFM >>>Can you tell me what size I need to make the arbours Tim? >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Longest integral shaft is a 1/2" OD x 4 1/2" long with a 21t gear on the end >of it. All nice and consistent, then <G> I'll dig through my collets later, & try to work out a straightforward way to do it. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >>>Can you tell me what size I need to make the arbours Tim? >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >or both. All in imperial inches! I can't find a 7/16", and 3/4" is a bit big for a W20 collet :-( Got all the other sizes. I've got loads of /32" sizes. Maybe because nobody wants them! Anyone out there with a 7/16" W20 buttress thread collet they would like to swap for another size? Preferably an obscure /32" size <BG> For the bored gears, I would make up a parallel shaft to suit, a piece of silver steel is handy, with a nut, thread & centre hole at one end. The other end needs a collar loctited on, for the gear to press against, with enough shaft exposed to go in the collet. Just skim the face of the collar after loctiting to make sure it's square. I'll sort out a pic of 'one I made earlier' tomorrow. You can, of course, turn them out of solid if you're feeling masochistic. >Longest integral shaft is a 1/2" OD x 4 1/2" long with a 21t gear on the end >of it. > >Should I do some drawings or photos with dimensions on, so you can tell me if >I need to modify any combinations that won't fit? That might be a good plan for the integral shaft gears. Tim >Mark Rand >RTFM Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service >I can't find a 7/16", and 3/4" is a bit big for a W20 collet :-( So that's at least one of them that won't match any of you collets without modifying :-). I'll just put a datum diameter on the ones which don't look like they'll fit so that I can indicate off it for mounting for final turning or boring, that's easy and will be sufficiently accurate. Then I can make the bores or shafts match the collets. >Got all the other sizes. >I've got loads of /32" sizes. Maybe because nobody wants them! >Anyone out there with a 7/16" W20 buttress thread collet they would >like to swap for another size? Preferably an obscure /32" size <BG> Do you think that G&M would do you a free, one for one swap out of the box they've got for sale? :-) http://www.gandmtools.com/cat_leaf.php?id=4300 >For the bored gears, I would make up a parallel shaft to suit, a piece >of silver steel is handy, with a nut, thread & centre hole at one end. >The other end needs a collar loctited on, for the gear to press >against, with enough shaft exposed to go in the collet. Just skim the >face of the collar after loctiting to make sure it's square. I'll sort >out a pic of 'one I made earlier' tomorrow. Thank Ee kindly sir. > You can, of course, turn them out of solid if you're feeling masochistic. After turning most of the gear blank stock into swarf, the odd little arbour will be relaxing. >>Longest integral shaft is a 1/2" OD x 4 1/2" long with a 21t gear on the end >>of it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That might be a good plan for the integral shaft gears. I'll get on with that, It'll help me to remind myself which bits are a given size "just because" and which bits are that size because of bearings etc. Thank you for your support, I shall always wear it :-) Mark Rand RTFM |
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