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Model Forum / General / Models / December 2006Suits you sir...
..now that's a nice lathe eBay: 26005760782 -- Myford Mat > ...now that's a nice lathe > > eBay: 260057607829 It is.. All DSG machine are very nice so are Holbrooks. Shame they are all very limited by their very low highest spindle speeds. Wayne.. >> ...now that's a nice lathe >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Wayne.. I'm not sure that's entirely fair. I agree for that 13" lathe 750 rpm is very low, but my 17" from 1955 has a top speed of 1230 rpm. I know that's not high by modern standards, but the lathe is replacing a 400mm (16") TOS which had two speed ranges - up to 1000 & up to 2000 rpm. I had that for 6 years, never used it in the higher range, never had any wish to do so. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service > I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Maybe not, seeing as they are from a bygone age. The main issue these days is not comparison to more modern machinery but rather the needs of modern carbide tooling. This tooling is not designed for or works well at such low speeds. Still a lovely machine though, they really had some nice features. Wayne... >> I'm not sure that's entirely fair. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Wayne... Hold on a minute... 2 1/5" diameter at 750rpm is nigh on 500sfpm. The lathe isn't designed as a bloody watchmakers lathe. It'll produce as much blue swarf as one can eat, if turning the parts that it was designed to turn. Mark Rand RTFM > Hold on a minute... 2 1/5" diameter at 750rpm is nigh on 500sfpm. The lathe > isn't designed as a bloody watchmakers lathe. It'll produce as much blue swarf > as one can eat, if turning the parts that it was designed to turn. Hold onto your rattle Mark ;) 500fpm eh. Glad I can go a lot higher than that ;) Maybe it's the reason my inserts last a fair while. Here's some carbide feeds n speeds for you 500 fpm is NOT fast. http://www.carbidedepot.com/iscar-spdsfds.htm I'm NOT knocking it... But if you want to go slow then I can recommend the KC720 grade from Kennametal for the speed challenged lathes. I guess the fact I'm production orintated makes me work that way even if I'm doing model engineering. Nor is the Colchester Triumph range of lathes a watchmakers lathe and they all did 2000 rpm, the later ones 2500. Your not meant to eat blue swarf you should be able to chip it enough so you can move aside and hit the guy 10 feet behind you ;) Wayne... >> Hold on a minute... 2 1/5" diameter at 750rpm is nigh on 500sfpm. The lathe >> isn't designed as a bloody watchmakers lathe. It'll produce as much blue swarf [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Nor is the Colchester Triumph range of lathes a watchmakers lathe and >they all did 2000 rpm, the later ones 2500. Nitpicking a bit, I think the older Triumphs were limited to around the 1000 rpm mark. >Your not meant to eat blue swarf you should be able to chip it enough so >you can move aside and hit the guy 10 feet behind you ;) I could certainly do that on my TOS, even in the lower speed range <G> Going back to DSG's, this item strikes me as a bit odd http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260039621953 Clearly a fairly old machine (1930's?), with a rather poor & tasteless (IMO) paint job, capacity isn't specified, and a very high price. If he's just using the item to advertise his services, as I suspect, I wouldn't see that as a very good advert. As for the original DSG in the subject, it's clearly got some extra goodies which the vendor hasn't mentioned. A relieving attachment perhaps? I've seen one, but can't remember what it looked like. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service > Nitpicking a bit, I think the older Triumphs were limited to around > the 1000 rpm mark. Yes the roundhead ones. I was referring more to the more modern triumph 2000 range. Even the Mastif could do 1400 rpm IIRC. I used to run a 90's shortbed VS2500 with the 10HP VFD drive, that thing was so versatile. >> Your not meant to eat blue swarf you should be able to chip it enough so >> you can move aside and hit the guy 10 feet behind you ;) > > I could certainly do that on my TOS, even in the lower speed range <G> I used to constantly do it when roughing billets of 6" en24T and EN40 crankshaft blanks! Nice short chips, but bloody hurt when then managed to hit me. There was really no-one behind me by the way ! > Going back to DSG's, this item strikes me as a bit odd > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If he's just using the item to advertise his services, as I suspect, I > wouldn't see that as a very good advert. It is rather expensive. > As for the original DSG in the subject, it's clearly got some extra > goodies which the vendor hasn't mentioned. A relieving attachment > perhaps? I've seen one, but can't remember what it looked like. and a taper turning attachment which I dont think he mentions. As lovely as these machines are, they occupy a fair bit of real estate. I'm still surprised that not more Hardinge's are used in ME circles. Even the Feeler copies which come up from time to time are good. Wayne... >> Hold on a minute... 2 1/5" diameter at 750rpm is nigh on 500sfpm. The lathe >> isn't designed as a bloody watchmakers lathe. It'll produce as much blue swarf >> as one can eat, if turning the parts that it was designed to turn. > >Hold onto your rattle Mark ;) Just pissed off because I'm currently trying to remove significant amounts of metal whilst limited, temporarily, to 600rpm and 1/4hp :-( >500fpm eh. Glad I can go a lot higher than that ;) Maybe it's the >reason my inserts last a fair while. At 500fpm with the current EN24, I'm getting the swarf coming off red. The nuisance is that I can't keep the speed up with the smaller diameters. If I broke off from swarf making for long enough to get a pulley for the 3-phase motor and wire it up to the invertor I've already mounted in the stand, then I'd be able to get 1500rpm. Me, stupid... I don't know what you're talking about :-) >Here's some carbide feeds n speeds for you 500 fpm is NOT fast. > >http://www.carbidedepot.com/iscar-spdsfds.htm Not fast, but perfectly acceptable and that was at 2 1/2", at 17" the speed would be a little more! >I'm NOT knocking it... But if you want to go slow then I can recommend >the KC720 grade from Kennametal for the speed challenged lathes. Trouble is, they only make drilling bits in that grade :-{ I'm currently looking for better options in CCM* and CNM* styles, but I suspect that the problems will reduce drastically once the Hardinge is operational. >I guess the fact I'm production orintated makes me work that way even if >I'm doing model engineering. > >Nor is the Colchester Triumph range of lathes a watchmakers lathe and >they all did 2000 rpm, the later ones 2500. They are very lightly built compared with DSG's. This can be significant when you are turning parts weighing a ton and a half, which is the sort of size we would expect to handle in a 17" DSG >Your not meant to eat blue swarf you should be able to chip it enough so >you can move aside and hit the guy 10 feet behind you ;) > >Wayne... Mark Rand RTFM > Just pissed off because I'm currently trying to remove significant amounts of > metal whilst limited, temporarily, to 600rpm and 1/4hp :-( I can imagine. When I worked in a small engine development shop, I used to turn a lot of cranks from billet. The Colchester VS2500 used to knock down 5-6" diameter EN40B to say about an inch dia for the end journals in about 10 minutes or less. No-one wanted to be in the workshop working behind me though ! > At 500fpm with the current EN24, I'm getting the swarf coming off red. The > nuisance is that I can't keep the speed up with the smaller diameters. I've turned a LOT of EN24T we used to get almost mirror finishes on it with heavy cuts and negative inserts. Are you rounging my facing to diameter? I found that easier on the lathe sometimes. > Trouble is, they only make drilling bits in that grade :-{ CCMT is available I'm sure. I use them on the M300 clone. I think you got to ask, J&L may not list all grades in the catalogue. > I'm currently looking for better options in CCM* and CNM* styles, but I > suspect that the problems will reduce drastically once the Hardinge is > operational. So you have at least one redeeming feature ;) I'm very fond of the flat bed Hardinges myself. I own a couple ;) One 5C one 16C. > They are very lightly built compared with DSG's. This can be significant when > you are turning parts weighing a ton and a half, which is the sort of size we > would expect to handle in a 17" DSG True. But they are able to take some decent cuts. I prefer the shorter bed variants. Fair bit stiffer. Very popular down here. I'd have another 7Kw VS2500 in a flash if I had the room. Wayne... >> I'm NOT knocking it... But if you want to go slow then I can recommend >> the KC720 grade from Kennametal for the speed challenged lathes. > > Trouble is, they only make drilling bits in that grade :-{ Mark Just had a chance to cheack some inserts. I quoted KC720, in fact I think I should of said KC730. That was the positive grade more suited to lower RPM's Wayne... >Nor is the Colchester Triumph range of lathes a watchmakers lathe and >they all did 2000 rpm, the later ones 2500. not sure the earlier ones did. There was a Mk1 Triumph on ebay earlier for about 300-odd notes. "8 speeds were provided that could, on the first models, be specified as either 30 to 600 rpm or 40 to 800 rpm; originally a single-speed 3 hp motor (later 5 hp) was fitted but within a few years machines were being offered with either an 8-speed 50 to 1000 rpm speed range or a two-speed motor that provided 16 speeds from 30 to 1200 rpm."  SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Blue: The sky is blue for a reason. Blue light is a source of strength and harmony in the cosmos. Create a blue light in your life by telephoning the police from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. > "8 speeds were provided that could, on the first models, be specified as > either 30 to 600 rpm or 40 to 800 rpm; originally a single-speed 3 hp motor > (later 5 hp) was fitted but within a few years machines were being offered > with either an 8-speed 50 to 1000 rpm speed range or a two-speed motor that > provided 16 speeds from 30 to 1200 rpm." Thats why the Triumph 2000 was brought out ;) Not used a round head one for years. Wayne.. >> "8 speeds were provided that could, on the first models, be specified as >> either 30 to 600 rpm or 40 to 800 rpm; originally a single-speed 3 hp motor [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Thats why the Triumph 2000 was brought out ;) Not used a round head >one for years. good machines, though, if they've been reasonably looked after. My roundhead student is 1960, apparently, and has had what appears to be a rather chequered career - but with a bit of fettling it's getting quite good again. However, I won't be buying a new crossfeed screw and nut - found a supplier, but they cost more than I paid for the lathe. I'll have to live with the 14 thou or so backlash in it. Granted, for serious production work they're out of date, but for small-scale, prototyping etc., you can get a hell of a lot of lathe for your money. I've been contemplating a 2-speed setup on mine. They originally came with the option of a 2-speed motor, giving both lower and higher speeds. 2-speed single phase motor doesn't sound too easy, so I'm contemplating instead a variation on the main belt drive, which is a biggish flat belt on this one. Replacing the pulleys with some V (or A) belt ones ought to allow space for 2 different sizes. Unless someone knows different about the single-phase motors... it's got a 1400-ish RPM one on it at the moment which is the correct speed (makes it a 4-pole, I think) SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine... War is hell" Gen. Sherman (1820-1891) Attr. words in Address at Michigan Military Academy, 19 June 1879. > However, I won't be buying a new crossfeed screw and nut - found a supplier, > but they cost more than I paid for the lathe. I'll have to live with the 14 > thou or so backlash in it. You might be able to buy stock LH acme screw and nut somewhere, and modify to suit. Or even make them. > Granted, for serious production work they're out of date, but for > small-scale, prototyping etc., you can get a hell of a lot of lathe for your > money. I nearly bought a roundhead triumph some years ago, somplete with Ainjest and loads of other tooling, but by then I had been spoilt by faster machines, and as I mainly do production work it was a wise choice. The Ainjest would of been handy on occasions though. > I've been contemplating a 2-speed setup on mine. They originally came with > the option of a 2-speed motor, giving both lower and higher speeds. 2-speed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1400-ish RPM one on it at the moment which is the correct speed (makes it a > 4-pole, I think) Yes 4 pole. But have you considered a 3 phase 3 or 4Hp motor and VFD? Much easier. Wayne.... >Yes 4 pole. But have you considered a 3 phase 3 or 4Hp motor and VFD? > Much easier. not if you don't have 3-phase. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria" - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno' >> Yes 4 pole. But have you considered a 3 phase 3 or 4Hp motor and VFD? >> Much easier. > > not if you don't have 3-phase. Austin Single phase input VFD's are easily available upto 3Kw. 2.2Kw is more common though. A VFD will give you variable speed from just about zero rpm to more or less whatever's safe for your machine. What HP are you using? Wayne... >>> Yes 4 pole. But have you considered a 3 phase 3 or 4Hp motor and VFD? >>> Much easier. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >A VFD will give you variable speed from just about zero rpm to more or >less whatever's safe for your machine. Some in the UK might not realise that VFD (variable frequency drive) is the same thing as an inverter drive (or indeed an AC VSD!) >What HP are you using? My MkII student had 3hp, I've just converted a CVA with 4hp motor to single phase input inverter drive, which works a treat. 240V input drives do seem to get expensive over a couple of hp, though. Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service > Some in the UK might not realise that VFD (variable frequency drive) > is the same thing as an inverter drive (or indeed an AC VSD!) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 240V input drives do seem to get expensive over a couple of hp, > though. Yes they do get a little expensive. Last year I bought a 4HP Siemens drive with a good cast iron flange mount motor and braking resistor for one of my cnc retrofits. I think it all came to about a grand. 2.2Kw would not cost anywhere near as much. Wayne... >>Single phase input VFD's are easily available upto 3Kw. 2.2Kw is more >>common though. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Some in the UK might not realise that VFD (variable frequency drive) >is the same thing as an inverter drive (or indeed an AC VSD!) aha, thanks. I've looked into it a bit - by far the cheapest option is to replace the current motor with a bigger single-phase one. Doesn't get me any more speed, though, but it'd make it easier to use the higher gears it's got. most of the time I'm doing small diameter jobs, and running faster would be good. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802) >>> Yes 4 pole. But have you considered a 3 phase 3 or 4Hp motor and VFD? >>> Much easier. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Single phase input VFD's are easily available upto 3Kw. 2.2Kw is more >common though. 2.2 is about 3HP which is what the Student should have... VFD? Variable Field Device? Visceral Function Detector? OK, I could google for it... >A VFD will give you variable speed from just about zero rpm to more or >less whatever's safe for your machine. > >What HP are you using? the current motor is only a 1.5HP, and as such not really enough for the machine; it'll only run at 1200 once it's warmed up; it needs a bigger motor anyway, and a bit more top speed would be nice. Colchester sold them running at up to 1500 (with the 2-speed motor) so I don't see why I shouldn't run it at up to 1500. variable speed would be neat though, especially as I could then up the pulley speed so as to get 1500 top end and no lose the low speed in the process. Currently, it goes down to 54 and I do actually use that sometimes. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802) > VFD? Variable Field Device? Visceral Function Detector? Variable Frequency Drive. > the current motor is only a 1.5HP, and as such not really enough for the > machine; it'll only run at 1200 once it's warmed up; it needs a bigger motor [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > process. Currently, it goes down to 54 and I do actually use that > sometimes. There are more benefits to be had by using a VFD over any single phase motor other than the ability to alter the speed. 1. Programmable start up ramp usually from zero to many seconds. 2. Same with deceleration. 3. Instant reversing Plus some others not so obvious ;) The output frequency and therefore speed can be altered from zero to 200-400 hz in many cases. BUT you have to be sensible! Some motors and other parts of the machine may not be able to withstand such speeds. As an example, my CNC machining centre has a spindle rated 2 pole motor which does 3000rpm at 50 Hz. I have max frequency set to 100Hz or 6000 rpm, which is what the spindle itself is rated to. I can go from 0.5Hz-100hz in 2 seconds and 100Hz to stop in 0.5 seconds (Braking resistor fitted). But your 1500 rpm will be easy for a delta connected 3 phase motor and VFD of 3HP rating. J.S. or others may be able to suggest sources, I have used in the past http://www.acpd.co.uk/9.html Sometimes eve RS have good prices on VFD's. Wayne... >> VFD? Variable Field Device? Visceral Function Detector? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Plus some others not so obvious ;) All sounds neat. I assume though that what I need to work this is the VFD and a suitable-sized 3-phase motor? Unless I can find 'em second hand, I reckon from some study that this would cost about 4x what a bigger single-phase motor would cost, even considering that 4 pole motors cost more than 2-pole. another nice touch would be to get hold of the clutch which was apparently fitted to single-phase and DC machines, but unless I happened to find one cheap somewhere I'm not likely to do that either. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right is to be none the less free than you were before." Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16 |
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