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Model Forum / General / Models / January 2008Best milling machine for under £1000
I know, I know - been asked a million times before, I'm sure. I have a basic application / requirement in mind that could be solved by a £200 pillar drill. But I would like to start designing my own tools (precision, and related to working with internal components of hard drives) so a learning curve is likely and something I'm looking forward to. As such, flexibility, ability and adaptability are prerequisites for the machine I want. The best I have been able to come up with so far is the Sieg X3. Am I barking up the wrong tree, or are there way better machines around? Bear in mind this is more experimental than anything else, so I am loath to spend over £1000. I also don't want a 20-year old mill requiring repair / refurbishment / ongoing excessive maintenance etc. I will be working most likely with brass and aluminium; I intend to purchase the metal in part-fabricated form, so that I can finish it off with the precision requirements - so heavy duty is not necessary. Thanks for any help / assistance / pointers / links. Duncan > I would like to start designing my own tools (precision, and related > to working with internal components of hard drives) so a learning curve > is likely and something I'm looking forward to. > Duncan Just a possible pointer, but for the size of work you describe, maybe this USA company's products are appropriate?: www.sherline.com Exchange rates are pretty favourable now, too. Could be worth a visit anyway - very informative website. Jordan >> I would like to start designing my own tools (precision, and related >> to working with internal components of hard drives) so a learning curve [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > www.sherline.com > Exchange rates are pretty favourable now, too. Or buy the taig here in the UK at well under £1000 www.peatol.co.uk The on line price list is a little out of date, but exchange rate and inflation have gone in opposite directions ;) And if you get around to wanting to convert it to CNC then we can help.  SignatureLester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php > I know, I know - been asked a million times before, I'm sure. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Duncan Not trying to be negative, but I seriously doubt that you find anything in the 'Amateur' market / at the prices you suggest that will give you anything near the level of precision you will require developing tools for computer hard disk drives. The level of accuracy needed is frightening! - believe me! mike > Not trying to be negative, but I seriously doubt that you find > anything in the 'Amateur' market / at the prices you suggest that will > give you anything near the level of precision you will require > developing tools for computer hard disk drives. The level of accuracy > needed is frightening! - believe me! > mike Thanks, Mike But I would like to explore the option of creating a prototype of tool that can then be "polished off" by a professional company. I know about the tolerances and levels of precision regarding tools for hard drives - I work with the darn things 7 days a week! Duncan SignatureRetrodata www.retrodata.co.uk Globally Local Data Recovery Experts >> Not trying to be negative, but I seriously doubt that you find >> anything in the 'Amateur' market / at the prices you suggest that will [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Duncan Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and for a damn sight more than 1K or treat it as a one off and charge accordingly. Don't expect change out of less than 10 K For what you are looking for you need to be looking at something like the CNC Wabeco or a manual one with ball screws. Unfortunately these are more than 1K, a lot more so you have to go back and evaluate your requirements as regards precision and cost. Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but it's hard facts of life. I want a new works truck and I have about 4K to spend on one, I'd like a brand new Peugeot but Mr Peugeot says his new ones are 14K but I do realise that no matter how hard I search, new and 4K aren't in the same equation Regards, John Stevenson L Stevenson [ Engineers ] > Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you > can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and > for a damn sight more than 1K or treat it as a one off and charge > accordingly. > Don't expect change out of less than 10 K I'm looking at global sales of (conservatively - how many data recovery companies are there?) well in excess of 5,000 units over 2 years at a profit margin approaching 1,000 per unit. I say two years, but potentially only one or even less, until some Chinese manufacturers latch onto the idea and produce cheap copies that won't perform adequately, will contain banned substances, and will break down incessantly. The demand for the product is there - of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever. The difference with this product is that it does what none other is capable of doing; and, most important, it will be designed, machined, milled, manufactured, assembled, calibrated and tested in the UK. Duncan SignatureRetrodata www.retrodata.co.uk Globally Local Data Recovery Experts >> Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you >> can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Duncan In that case, on those figures why are you pissing about with cheap Chinese machines ? You would be better off looking at the optical trade to see what they use. . Regards, John Stevenson L Stevenson [ Engineers ] >> Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you >> can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The demand for the product is there - of that I have absolutely no doubt > whatsoever. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Duncan Not sure what you mean by "profit margin" but if this is a serious, big bucks opportunity then you ought to to invest in it likeone - get sat down (cheque book out) with an upto date, state of the market machinist/engineer and cost out a realistic prototype in the shortest possible time - yesterday is already late. Assess what you have, re-check your market research and and get your financing in place to do the job. OR get the prototype patented and do a deal with someone who has the infrastructure to get this into the global market fast. Steve > >> Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you > >> can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > patented and do a deal with someone who has the infrastructure to get this > into the global market fast. It would appear that with the emerging manufacturing facilities in various parts of the world, patents are patently a waste of time. SignatureRetrodata www.retrodata.co.uk Globally Local Data Recovery Experts >> >> Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you >> >> can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >It would appear that with the emerging manufacturing facilities in >various parts of the world, patents are patently a waste of time. Even so but the advise is sound. If the opening is there then shell out and get in there but don't piss about with cheap DIY machines to do a commercial job. All machines have a target market, the DIY ones aren't targeted for continual industrial operation or the accuracy you need. Perhaps you need to examine your goals further before either nothing happens or you are left behind. Regards, John Stevenson L Stevenson [ Engineers ] > >> >> Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you > >> >> can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > out and get in there but don't piss about with cheap DIY machines to > do a commercial job. I think you missed the point; the objective of this is to produce a prototype that can then be taken to a professional engineering company. Better to have a tangible model than lines and figures drawn up on paper. > All machines have a target market, the DIY ones aren't targeted for > continual industrial operation or the accuracy you need. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > John Stevenson > L Stevenson [ Engineers ] SignatureRetrodata www.retrodata.co.uk Globally Local Data Recovery Experts "I think you missed the point; the objective of this is to produce a prototype that can then be taken to a professional engineerin company. Better to have a tangible model than lines and figures drawn up on paper." Maybe you missed the point too. If the idea is to demonstrate that your tool works in principle, i only you could make it sufficiently accurate, then you might be bette off doing it with 3D design software and an 'action package" that allow you to show how the machine moves. You might even be able to do it in Alibre for a reasonable sum -- rss > > If the idea is to demonstrate that your tool works in principle, if > only you could make it sufficiently accurate, then you might be better > off doing it with 3D design software and an 'action package" that allows > you to show how the machine moves. Hey RSSS Try a bit harder, and maybe we can talk him out of doing real model engineering altogether. Jordan Odie, my thoughts on this are... You need a monster none disclosure contract with someone, then get them to make what you need. It'll save time and money, and if you are LUCKY point out any problems in what you are trying to achieve. I work professionally with CAD/CAM and manual machine tools to 5 micron tolerances, and I'm still an amateur engineer!!! (in machining terms) Joules > > >> >> Any machine tool development company will not be interested unless you > > >> >> can convince them they are looking at sales in excess of 500 units and [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Agree with some of the latest postings. You are entering the proverbial minefield here! Companies with ££Mega in the budget have problems with upholding their patents, and the development timescale for the one-man operation is too long these days specifically in the area of high-tech. Any company already in the field would be perfectly capable of determining the viability of a product at the design stage and a good 3-D CAD modelling would add to the 'shine'. Approach several, with a general overview, to see if their is any interest first - if any bite, you will need to get a water-tight non-disclosure agreement drawn up first (which unfortunatley is going to cost you £££'s). I very much impressed by anyone looking to go down the route that you are, and all the best of luck, but I know from bitter experience that it can be be a soul-destroying exercise if you don't get good, professional advice before you start. Hadn't we start to find out what this forum is all about? My conception of it suggests 1 United Kingdom 2. rec which stands for Recreation or hobbies or whatever you want to call them 3 engineering- that goes with hobbies. Consequently. this refers to someone who doesn't earn his bread and butter by engineering. You can interpret that as Fred in his back shed or a garage end! Once the dividing line is breached, those with bread and butter aspirations should be good enough to tactfully withdraw or if they are willing to impart their expertise, to keep to tooling which is a) affordable and b) will fit into Fred's shed or between the deep freeze and the washing machine in the garage. Those are the guidelines. We all romp away on our hobby horses or moonbeams from a lesser lunacy. My mill drill cost less than a grand and I have had to do a lot of things to it both because I couldn't afford to or make them because there is nothing really suitable. I don't want a bloody Bridgeport or the hernia which comes with a sodding big rotary table that goes on it. I live in a place which may not be a stately home but I don't want a bleedin' big lathe poking out amongst the begonias! I have enough fun with the neighbours who object because I don't have gardener and my wife a cleaning lady so that she can watch Aggie and her mate cleaning on the box. Let's get real. Model engineering is a bit of a weirdo hobby at the best of times. Running a factory is for the - Chinese in China. If people want a factory, I trust that it will be in the appropriate place! My back yard has grass! Norm >Hadn't we start to find out what this forum is all about? >My conception of it suggests >1 United Kingdom Which still includes Canada and the United States given that they have proved they can't govern themselves. Lets face it anyone who can't get 3 wire across America for 3 phase and still run on 110 volt from 73.333333 U2 battery cells, can never have put a man on the moon >2. rec which stands for Recreation or hobbies or whatever you want to >call them Can also be spelt WRECK. >3 engineering- that goes with hobbies. No argument. >Consequently. this refers to someone who doesn't earn his bread and >butter by engineering. You can interpret that as Fred in his back shed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >which is a) affordable and b) will fit into Fred's shed or between the >deep freeze and the washing machine in the garage. So Myfords being an industrial concern should shut up shop and not cater for the hobbyist Oh sorry they already have .... >Those are the guidelines. We all romp away on our hobby horses or >moonbeams from a lesser lunacy. Whatever. >My mill drill cost less than a grand and I have had to do a lot of >things to it both because I couldn't afford to or make them because [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >my wife a cleaning lady so that she can watch Aggie and her mate >cleaning on the box. Who the f.ck's Aggie ?????????? >Let's get real. Model engineering is a bit of a weirdo hobby at the >best of times. Running a factory is for the - Chinese in China. So by default not Myford. >If people want a factory, I trust that it will be in the appropriate >place! My back yard has grass! Mine has slabs, factory made. >Norm On 29 Jan, 13:23, John Stevenson <j...@stevenson-engineers.co.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 05:08:15 -0800 (PST), ravensworth2674 John, I chose my words carefully. Aggie is the cleaning lady who tells the BBC viewers how to clean their homes when they know all the time that Arstrid from Poland is going to come in and do it anyway. I also checked with the US lot who are buying factory size machine tools for peanuts. Paying the same as a fill of British Petrol. But what of us- UK Poor Lousy K****? The shares have risen - the Blue Chips- by half of one percent from a effort by the Burning Bush- and Federal Breweries- sorry Bank. Bridge ports on E- Buy are not even getting a bid. Probably, the populace is waiting to get their ruptures re- tacked on the NHS. Imagine the wait! Recently, you went past Northern Rock. Had you waited, you would have heard the noise of the mis guided punters jumping off the unfinished roof. The other one in Sunderland- blew of in the gales,f a tribute to fine workmanship. Oddly, I did predict all this. May I remind you that it is not unknown. This once 14 year old school leaver lived through it. The only thing that I couldn't 'fire proof' myself was for old age and a more distant future. Maybe I am chucking snowballs at the moon. Back to the shed Norm >Maybe I am chucking snowballs at the moon. Some kind of balls, probably... <G> Regards, Tony > On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:09:58 -0800 (PST), ravensworth2674 > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards, > Tony Tony, I haven't needed to work for the past 23 years. And, Sir, ball to your court? Norm >> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:09:58 -0800 (PST), ravensworth2674 >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Norm Recent change of meds Norm? ....<G> Peter > On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:42:31 -0800 (PST), ravensworth2674 > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Greetings Peter, Still no meds- there aren't any for low blood pressure! Just getting a bit annoyed having tried to help out and people who- and your dear Dad would have said it- have bugger all to do but snipe at people who are trying to help. Take care, my friend, these are going to be difficult days ahead for you younger folks. Don't listen to the herd. They only say 'Baa' or 'Moo' and end up in the slaughter house1 Norm. >>On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:09:58 -0800 (PST), ravensworth2674 >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Norm So you've had 23 years to attend remedial writing classes? Succinctness and clarity of expression is not uniquely associated with the Bismarck. Tom > So you've had 23 years to attend remedial writing classes? > Succinctness and clarity of expression is not uniquely associated > with the Bismarck. > > Tom Hey, I like puzzles, and Norm's contributions are fun to decipher. But I don't agree totally with the suggestion that the original message had no place here. The poster said he was looking forward to learning how to run a mill - sounds almost like a hobby. And really - UK only? yeah, right. Jordan Gawd, you're opening a tin of worms there Duncan. A good machinist will get repeatable accuracy out of a tool that an amateur could only dream of, and a good machinist will also get production rates out of a tool that an amateur can only dream of. Doing this stuff manually takes T I M E, and it's only after you learn how to work a mill or lathe that you find the rates quoted to you by your local turner are actually pretty good, not the daylight robbery you thought they were. Doing this stuff automatically with such as a CNC Sherline set up takes T I M E too, but arguably you can walk away from most of it and do something else while it carries on. I would suggest to you, guessing at the sort of thing you will be making, that your issues will resolve around precise measurements, and if you think precise measurements are gotten by reading them off the handwheels calibrated in half or tenths of a thou you'll be in for a very nasty surprise, and turn a lot of part fabricated things bought for good money into scrap. In this scenario a good DRO on an average quality tool will probably be more use than a good quality tool that simply assumed you are already a precision machinist with several thousand pounds worth of precision measuring equipment. If you want to play with a half decent quality mill I've got one (not portable) you're more than welcome to try out any time you like, I have very little doubt that a day spent playing with a real tool will change your perspective and teach you things you were totally unaware of prior to spending a day messing about. If you're determined to just go ahead, remember the mill ain't even half the story, there is tooling etc etc etc, so best advice would be to plump down for a full CNC Sherline, at least if you decide it ain't for you you stand a very good chance of selling an almost unused one actually in the UK for a significant proportion of what you paid for it. HTH etc |
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