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PW - 26 Nov 2008 15:49 GMT Hi Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine By fitting a 5/16 unf bolt inside a spark plug. I need to know how much this bolt will extend by each complete revolution in mm. thanks
mark - 26 Nov 2008 15:59 GMT > Hi > Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine > By fitting a 5/16 unf bolt inside a spark plug. > I need to know how much this bolt will extend by each complete > revolution in mm. > thanks you are going about it the wrong way
get a longer bolt ...drill a hole down the middle of it ...put a long stroke dial indicator in the hole ...make clamp arrangement or something to hold the dial indicator in the bolt.
all the best.mark
PW - 26 Nov 2008 16:08 GMT >> Hi >> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > all the best.mark No, spark plug hole in head is at an acute angle I don’t have a dial gauge thanks but i just need to know how far a 5/16unf thread moves with each complete turn.
 Signature PW
Cliff Ray - 26 Nov 2008 16:12 GMT >>> Hi >>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > thanks but i just need to know how far a 5/16unf thread moves with each > complete turn. Well if you googled "5/16 unf thread" the first hit says it is 24 tpi. Can you work it out from there?
PW - 26 Nov 2008 16:26 GMT >>>> Hi >>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Well if you googled "5/16 unf thread" the first hit says it is 24 tpi. > Can you work it out from there? No, im a completely stupid, thick ignorant fool. That’s why I asked on here hoping to find the answer,
 Signature PW
Tony Jeffree - 26 Nov 2008 16:29 GMT >> Well if you googled "5/16 unf thread" the first hit says it is 24 tpi. >> Can you work it out from there? > >No, im a completely stupid, thick ignorant fool. >Thats why I asked on here hoping to find the answer, 24 TPI, so 1/24th of an inch per turn. An inch is 25.4 mm so 1.058333 recurring mm per turn.
Or a gnats bollock over 1mm per turn in round figures.
Regards, Tony
PW - 26 Nov 2008 16:55 GMT >>> Well if you googled "5/16 unf thread" the first hit says it is 24 tpi. >>> Can you work it out from there? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Regards, > Tony Thank you very much Tony that’s all I need to know.
 Signature PW
Dave Baker - 26 Nov 2008 16:38 GMT >>>>> Hi >>>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > No, im a completely stupid, thick ignorant fool. > That’s why I asked on here hoping to find the answer, If you're so dim you can't look up a bolt thread on Google how are you going to work out the maths for ignition timing versus bolt movement? Have you even considered that if the spark plug is at an angle that alters the vertical movement of the bolt? I'm guessing trigonometry would be way beyond you too. The words "to happen" and "accident waiting" spring to mind in no particular order.
 Signature Dave Baker
PW - 26 Nov 2008 16:59 GMT >>>>>> Hi >>>>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > If you're so dim you can't look up a bolt thread on Google how are you going > to work out the maths for ignition timing versus bolt movement? Ignition timing is 1.25 mm piston before TDC
> The words "to happen" and "accident waiting" spring to mind in no > particular order. TWAT
--
Andrew Mawson - 26 Nov 2008 17:13 GMT > >>>>>> Hi > >>>>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > TWAT Now you've got your answer to your original question, you need to ask 'how do I measure the angle of the spark plug thread relative to the piston axis?', and having done that, 'what protrusion of a 5/16 bolt at that angle corresponds to 1.25mm of piston travel?'
AWEM
PW - 26 Nov 2008 17:28 GMT > Now you've got your answer to your original question, you need to ask > 'how do I measure the angle of the spark plug thread relative to the > piston axis?', and having done that, 'what protrusion of a 5/16 bolt > at that angle corresponds to 1.25mm of piston travel?' > > AWEM No I don’t, see if you can work out why
 Signature PW
Boo - 26 Nov 2008 17:41 GMT > No I don’t, see if you can work out why 'Cos you are just going to refer everything to TDC which is the minimum protrusion of the bolt that will still contact the piston ? But then why do you need to know the thread pitch at all ?
 Signature Boo
Dragon - 26 Nov 2008 21:05 GMT >> Now you've got your answer to your original question, you need to ask >> 'how do I measure the angle of the spark plug thread relative to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No I don’t, see if you can work out why Nope can't work it out. Got lost in all the maths etc above Please enlighten me
Henry
ravensworth2674 - 26 Nov 2008 21:37 GMT > >> Now you've got your answer to your original question, you need to ask > >> 'how do I measure the angle of the spark plug thread relative to the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Henry I have only one useable eye at the moment but I counted 46 pages of advice on Google. Go out, buy aspirins, find wet towel, stay up all night-- or read my instructions which don't need maths
Nite
Norm
Dragon - 26 Nov 2008 23:14 GMT On 26 Nov, 21:05, "Dragon" <qz39dragon.trapb...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "PW" <u...@example.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Henry
>I have only one useable eye at the moment but I counted 46 pages of >advice on Google. >Go out, buy aspirins, find wet towel, stay up all night-- or read my >instructions which don't need maths
>Norm Ok your instructions are understandable. However the OP appears to want 1.25mm of piston travel before TDC He also seems to have a method of achieving that with a 5/16th bolt at some unspecified/unknown angle once he knows the pitch of the bolt. I am inviting him to explain how that works. Sometimes not a dense as I claim! On the other hand sometimes.....
Henry
jontom_1uk@hotmail.com - 27 Nov 2008 10:11 GMT > On 26 Nov, 21:05, "Dragon" <qz39dragon.trapb...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Henry, a very fair question in my mind but I suspect the OP is not going to enlighten us, particularly as he has already "brushed off" some excellent advice; the certainty of youth perhaps? I'm surprised that we haven't got into the discussion about the non linear relationship between crank angle and piston vertical movement yet, but then again the OP seems hell bent on upsetting some very knowledgeable guys.
I can however, merely for amusement you understand, relate a short story from my distant past with some "new" apprentices. The task was to time a small 2 stroke with basic (we used to call it field) equipment, at least enough to get it running. One bright light established TDC with a long screwdriver through the plug hole, even explaining how he had averaged the "dead" crank movement at TDC to get an accurate flywheel TDC mark. For some reason he then took off the exhaust pipe, SCRATCHED the piston with his scriber moved the piston down 1/16" and set the timing. His "other" mistake was that he moved the crank in the direction of rotation not against it :-) I suspect he went through life with a good understanding that scratching pistons was not the best thing to do. <Vbg>
Anyway, I too wait to be enlightened.
Regards
Keith
Dave Baker - 27 Nov 2008 10:34 GMT I can however, merely for amusement you understand, relate a short story from my distant past with some "new" apprentices. The task was to time a small 2 stroke with basic (we used to call it field) equipment, at least enough to get it running. One bright light established TDC with a long screwdriver through the plug hole, even explaining how he had averaged the "dead" crank movement at TDC to get an accurate flywheel TDC mark. For some reason he then took off the exhaust pipe, SCRATCHED the piston with his scriber moved the piston down 1/16" and set the timing. His "other" mistake was that he moved the crank in the direction of rotation not against it :-) I suspect he went through life with a good understanding that scratching pistons was not the best thing to do. <Vbg>
Don't get me started on apprentices. I've had a few 'helpers' over the years in various capacities although none of them employed for money as such. Last one was mid 40s doing a degree in motorsport engineering as part of some kind of mid life complete change of career. Started him on stripping down and cleaning stuff. He got a Peugeot flywheel off the crank ok by himself and then I said he could take a crossflow one off an engine that needed stripping later. He comes back a bit later saying he can't get any of the bolts out of this one, they just keep rounding off. I go and have a look and he's still using the 13mm socket that was correct for the Peugeot engine.
"WTF are you doing?" I say or words to that effect. "I thought flywheel bolts were 13mm." he replies. "Well they are on f**ing Peugeot 205 engines but not on every other engine known to man. Ford Crossflow's are imperial and the flywheel bolts are 1/2". Can't you even tell when a socket isn't the right fit for the bolt?"
Grrr. I might expect that from a teenager who's never used a socket set before but how can someone in his mid 40s who's stripped and built umpteen of his own engines not be able to use tools properly without help?
He spent the next few months breaking various other things including the DRO on my mill at which point we decided this was not going to work out.
There was one lad in his early 20s many years ago who was brilliant though. Point him at anything and he'd think it through for himself and then do it right without having to come running asking silly questions but those types are few and far between.
 Signature Dave Baker
jontom_1uk@hotmail.com - 27 Nov 2008 11:01 GMT > <jontom_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > -- > Dave Baker Good story Dave, I wish I had heard it a few years ago when I spent the final few years (as it turned out) of my career fighting to retain all that basic stuff in our apprentice training syllabus. It was always the initial and in my mind vital subjects that were under pressure. Of course while modern youth were expected to gain the same level of expertise in 3 years rather than 5 or even 7, they also had to understand the workings of the space shuttle, the digital world and how friction stir welding would revolutionise the aircraft production industry whilst not getting their hands dirty or scratching themselves. Oh and yes they do need 16 weeks of remedial maths as the schools didn't have time to teach them anything relevant to engineering. Don't know why I got so excited really as in hindsight it wasn't only the syllabus that went it was the whole b*****y apprentice training programme. I guess I'm just too old and it was time to retire after all.
Regards
Keith
Peter Neill - 27 Nov 2008 15:59 GMT >> Don't get me started on apprentices. I've had a few 'helpers' over the years >> in various capacities although none of them employed for money as such. Last [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > >Keith Back when I got my first 2-stroke moped/field bike, I was rather mechanically incompetent (I'm a little bit better now..).
An older friend who had a 'fizzy' and was already into his apprenticeship explained how de-coking the engine would gives us huge amounts more power and speed, and how carefully the compression ratio had been designed to give an exact gap between combustion chamber and piston for the mixture to compress, and then promptly suggested we spend an hour or two decoking and thereby putting things back to how the factory had designed them.
After carefully scraping the alloy piston top and combustion chambers with a 2p coin - as instructed so as not to damage it - scraping out the clogged exhaust ports, and then giving the combustion chamber a quick once over with wire wool and polish to finish off the job, we put our respective 2-stroke top ends back together.
Well, his 'fizzy' started up after a few kicks and indeed I'm sure it sounded better than it had before. However, mine stubbornly refused to fire up. Kicked it, pushed it, jumped it - nothing would provoke the engine into starting. Checked the plug and found we had a good spark. Checked the carb to make sure fuel was getting through. Checked that any kill switch was not engaged, and carried on trying to kick start/push start/bump start, and all to no avail.
Half an hour of head scratching and my friend bent down once again to look over the engine, then promptly fell about laughing his head off. "Whats so funny?" says I, "Have another look at the head" says He. So I did and couldn't see what was wrong.
Wiping the tears of mirth from his eyes, he asked WHY had I put the washers for the head bolts in between the head and barrel, instead of underneath the nuts holding the head down. Ah! Says I
I didn't think the two parts were supposed to be touching because of that compression ratio thing you told me about.
A sadly all too true tale.
Peter
Cliff Ray - 27 Nov 2008 11:04 GMT > <jontom_1uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Don't get me started on apprentices. I've had a few 'helpers' over the years A few years back I ended up trying to show two people how to install electric garage door operators. One was straight from school (with GCSE science) while the other had apparently been working as an electrician's assistant on building sites.
Anyway I asked them to "strip the insulation" off the mains wire and I would come back in 5 minutes and show them how to wire it up. Unfortunately 5 minutes later there was nearly three metres of completely bare wires and both were amazed that I wasn't impressed with how well they had stripped it. Unfortunately they didn't take my next instruction so literally.
Pip Luscher - 27 Nov 2008 20:17 GMT >I'm surprised >that we haven't got into the discussion about the non linear >relationship between crank angle and piston vertical movement yet, but >then again the OP seems hell bent on upsetting some very knowledgeable >guys. To be fair to him, two-strokes are traditionally set up by measuring piston position, not crank angle. An old Villliers engine I've owned was set up this way, as were a couple of relatively modern Japanese two-strokes.
One theory I saw (IIRC it was in a book about two-stroke tuning) was that flywheels might not be perfectly aligned, especially as the cranks on a two-stroke are often pressed together. So long as the crank throw is accurate though, piston position is a sufficiently sure way of ensuring that the timing is correct, even when measuring near TDC.
 Signature -Pip
Peter Neill - 27 Nov 2008 20:27 GMT >>I'm surprised >>that we haven't got into the discussion about the non linear [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >way of ensuring that the timing is correct, even when measuring near >TDC. ISTR somethng similar, and I would bet it was from one of the books by the late John Robinson. IIRC he said to set TDC with a dial gauge, and then mark the flywheel and crankcase for future reference.
Peter
Andrew Mawson - 26 Nov 2008 23:41 GMT On 26 Nov, 21:05, "Dragon" <qz39dragon.trapb...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "PW" <u...@example.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Henry I have only one useable eye at the moment but I counted 46 pages of advice on Google. Go out, buy aspirins, find wet towel, stay up all night-- or read my instructions which don't need maths
Nite
Norm
Well Norm, I'll join you in the one eyed club, but our friend the OP doesn't seem very open to suggestions or friendly advice. Lets hope the chip on his shoulder doesn't fall in the spark plug hole <G>
AWEM
Cliff Coggin - 27 Nov 2008 08:46 GMT On 26 Nov, 21:05, "Dragon" <qz39dragon.trapb...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Nope can't work it out. > Got lost in all the maths etc above > Please enlighten me > > Henry I have only one useable eye at the moment but I counted 46 pages of advice on Google. Go out, buy aspirins, find wet towel, stay up all night-- or read my instructions which don't need maths
Nite
Norm --------------------------------------------------
One shouldn't need full eyesight to recognise irony.
Cliff Coggin.
Dragon - 27 Nov 2008 16:08 GMT >> Nope can't work it out. >> Got lost in all the maths etc above [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Cliff Coggin. Spot on Cliff!
Henry
Mike Whittome - 26 Nov 2008 23:53 GMT >> Now you've got your answer to your original question, you need to >>ask [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >No I don’t, see if you can work out why Can't work it out. Please tell us, we would love to know.
From a more practical view, if you have a spark plug with a hole through it then put some soap suds over the hole and use the size of the bubble to determine TDC. Actually very accurate - try it.
Mike
 Signature Mike Whittome
Neil Ellwood - 27 Nov 2008 11:11 GMT >> Now you've got your answer to your original question, you need to ask >> 'how do I measure the angle of the spark plug thread relative to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No I don’t, see if you can work out why You've already tried it, gone too far and am now waiting for a new piston.
 Signature Neil reverse ra and delete l Linux user 335851
mark - 26 Nov 2008 17:51 GMT > >>>>>> Hi > >>>>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - bet you are meant to take the head off ..to time it
if its air cooled, i see no problem.
you can anneal the gasket before it goes back.
if as above, you pick up a dial gauge on ebay for less than a tenner
with the head off .you will only need a short stroke one ..
and a lump of metal to span the bore with hole drilled for dial gauge.
otherwise with the bolt idea ..it's just too involved and complicated.
all the best..markj
ravensworth2674 - 26 Nov 2008 20:49 GMT > > >>>>>> Hi > > >>>>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > - Show quoted text - This isn't rocket science. You've got a flywheel? Has it got a key? If so, it will be at TDC or BDC
Go to Woolies( oops, too late) but get a child's protractor and drill a weeny hole at TDC and then another at the degree timing mark.-on the flywheel. Fill the things with emulsion paint which will dry whilst you are at Halfords and get on with it.
Probably, the timing marks are already there- and just need the sh1te removed to find them
Come in Mark Rand and say-RTFM.
Mark Rand - 26 Nov 2008 20:56 GMT >This isn't rocket science. >You've got a flywheel? Has it got a key? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Come in Mark Rand and say-RTFM. Our trigonometrically challenged friend doesn't indicate the make and model of the engine, so I can't tell him which FM to R :-)
There has been sensible advice. A defensive/aggressive attitude might possibly blind one to the sense and helpfulness of said advice.
Mark Rand RTFM
Roland Craven - 27 Nov 2008 08:56 GMT Provided the stroke is known and the flywheel easily accessible; All you need is: something to poke in the plug hole at approx. TDC., a tapemeasure, a scriber, and some very basic maths.
ttfn
 Signature Roland Craven Nr. Exeter, Devon, UK roland@petternut.co.uk www.petternut.co.uk
brightside S9 - 27 Nov 2008 09:02 GMT >>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Ignition timing is 1.25 mm piston before TDC If the spark plug hole is at an acute angle, then one turn of the bolt will not result in 1 mm change in the direction of the stroke.
 Signature brightside s9
ravensworth2674 - 27 Nov 2008 09:08 GMT On 27 Nov, 09:02, brightside S9 <address@replyto_is_not.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>> Im making a TDC/Timing tool for a 2stroke engine [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Andrew, sorry to hear of your own probs.
I was musing like the giant Cyclops and wondering. I was scrapping my old records of 60 years back but realised that kids of 18 only got 6 weeks training to work on aircraft engines and airframes.
What has happened since? Here is a guy that can't even grasp that people have fed in information from 100's of sources. And he can't see it with 2 eyes
Sadly, Norman
Andrew Mawson - 27 Nov 2008 09:31 GMT On 27 Nov, 09:02, brightside S9 <address@replyto_is_not.invalid> wrote:
> >Dave Baker wrote: > >>> Cliff Ray wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Andrew, sorry to hear of your own probs.
I was musing like the giant Cyclops and wondering. I was scrapping my old records of 60 years back but realised that kids of 18 only got 6 weeks training to work on aircraft engines and airframes.
What has happened since? Here is a guy that can't even grasp that people have fed in information from 100's of sources. And he can't see it with 2 eyes
Sadly, Norman
It's nothing new Norm - stuck a mapping pen in it when I was five (*) so if I'm not used to it now I never will be <G>
AWEM
(*) and that's at least ... ten years ago <G>)
Trevor Jones - 28 Nov 2008 19:31 GMT > I was musing like the giant Cyclops and wondering. > I was scrapping my old records of 60 years back but realised that kids [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Sadly, > Norman They got six weeks of training, but they would have been watched closely, given much further instruction until they were proven competent, and, unless my sources have mislead me, they would have had to face a sound beating from one of their superiors, if they screwed up, or did not pay close enough attention to what they were doing and/or learning.
Fear is a great motivator, if properly applied. Focuses the mind, as it were.
Cheers Trev
ravensworth2674 - 28 Nov 2008 21:18 GMT > > I was musing like the giant Cyclops and wondering. > > I was scrapping my old records of 60 years back but realised that kids [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Cheers > Trev Trev, What arrant nonsense is this? I am actually looking at my intake of 1948. None of them look in fear and as to a beating, you must be out of your tree. On the 12th September 1948, I was in a squarebashing intake prior to this photo of a training course lasting 6 weeks. Again, I can tell you that one of the lads who became one of my 'erks' is still in contact with me. Further, in Star News which is the Journal of RAF 31 Squadron Association, one of the 6 week wonders was guest of honour to his old sergeant's presentation of 50 years in the Freemasons. He presented his old boss with a model of the Spitfire SL 721 which is still airworthy. If you live in London, go into the Peel Room at the Met at Hendon. It was in honour of three crew which died there. WE put it there. We might have been half starved, overworked, underpaid and generally buggered about- but we were tough enough. We had lived through 6 years of total war from the age of 9 - and this was luxury in comparison.
Norman Atkinson.
ravensworth2674 - 29 Nov 2008 11:47 GMT > > I was musing like the giant Cyclops and wondering. > > I was scrapping my old records of 60 years back but realised that kids [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Cheers > Trev My earlier post deleted. Obviously, Trev has no intention to dare to reply- he wasn't there.
Mark Rand - 29 Nov 2008 21:48 GMT >My earlier post deleted. >Obviously, Trev has no intention to dare to reply- he wasn't there. this is Usenet Norm, you can't delete a post once it's been downloaded :-) You can't cancel one where news servers don't accept cancels either.
Mark Rand RTFM
ravensworth2674 - 30 Nov 2008 08:06 GMT > On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 03:47:52 -0800 (PST), ravensworth2674 > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Mark Rand > RTFM Thanks Mark but everyone who did National Service is at least 70( I'm 78+) The accuracy of accounts from first hand is getting less and less.
What is accurate is 'RTFM', the RAF Tech Library - or all the RAF Technical Publications is still at my old unit-RAF Hendon. Now there's thing. I would expect that the answers to the original post are repeated and repeated- there and there.
Mumble, mumble
Norm- another 6 week wonder
Trevor Jones - 30 Nov 2008 22:05 GMT >>>I was musing like the giant Cyclops and wondering. >>>I was scrapping my old records of 60 years back but realised that kids [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > My earlier post deleted. > Obviously, Trev has no intention to dare to reply- he wasn't there. On the contrary, I dare reply just fine.
I have not been spending much time on the newsgroups of late.
Regarding the training. I am basing my statements on what has been told to me by, among others, some of the old farts that spent time in either the RAF, or the RCAF, during the war years and postwar. I worked with several fellows that had spent time in the RCAF, prior to amalgamation, here in Canada, into the Canadain Armed Forces. That took place in 1968. Most, if not all those fellows, retired through the '80's.
Reading through the reminiscences of the folks that did their apprenticeships both before and after that time, adds a bit more of a perspective.
The monitoring and mentoring did go on long after the 6 weeks of training was completed. And I can see no reason for any of them to have lied to me about the real potential of getting a beating laid upon them by the Corporal, or by the LAC that was watching over them, if they screwed up. They told me it happened. Good enough for me.
As to the benefits of fear, I'll stand by that. Whether it's a fear of a beating (rare these days) or simply fear of failure (of which there seems not enough about) fear does focus ones mind. Being in the military, one of the few employers that maintains it's own prison system , there is the fear of that, also, if one screws up badly enough.
I still run across the odd apprentice tradesman that could use a sound beating. It might not cause them any good, but would improve my spirits a great deal.
Cheers Trev
Pip Luscher - 27 Nov 2008 20:31 GMT >If the spark plug hole is at an acute angle, then one turn of the bolt >will not result in 1 mm change in the direction of the stroke. Without Googling, I reckon one could work it out, in theory: from exactly TDC, if x turns of the bolt turns the crank y degrees (measured by some means) and the bolt pitch and crank throw are known, then the bolt angle could easily be calculated. However, the point of contact would move across the piston crown and the foregoing asumes that the piston crown is flat, which it usually isn't. It also assumes that TDC can be accurately found without a dial gauge, which I doubt.
 Signature -Pip
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