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Denford triac with Mach3

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Kevin - 08 Apr 2009 22:03 GMT
Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control.  Due to moving
house I've only just got round to using it to run some real programs.
And I've got a problem.  I'm obviously losing steps somewhere, as
positional accuracy is drifting.  Running some basic tests it seems
that several small moves seem to give a problem, but larger moves
don't seem to give the same problem.

The machine has the original stepper motors, with ARC controls and a
new power supply.  I'm using a CNC4PC C11 breakout board, mounted in
the base of the machine.

Any suggestions please, this is getting more than a little annoying
now.

Regards
Kevin
John S - 08 Apr 2009 22:46 GMT
> Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control.  Due to moving
> house I've only just got round to using it to run some real programs.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Regards
> Kevin

Kevin,
I have done a few Triacs now and the problem I find is the motors.
They are old style single stack type 34's and very dated. If you are
using Arc's small drives you will be limited to 30 volts max which
isn't really enough.
Easyist way is to reduce the acceleration and velocity, to be honest
we have struggled to get one running above 900 mm / min without
loosing stems on the small drives and original motors.

If you change motors to triple stack type 23's they fly, even on the
small drives but if you fit the larger dives and run them at 72 volt
you can easily get 2500mm min

John s.
Kevin - 08 Apr 2009 23:02 GMT
> Kevin,
> I have done a few Triacs now and the problem I find is the motors.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> John s

Yes, I wondered if I should have replaced the original motors (perhaps
a false economy).  I've tried dropping speed and accleration to the
point it hardly moves and still seem to have the problem.  What motor
would you suggest to use with the power supply and controllers I've
got (ARC 3A drives and power supply as per their web site plans).  I
think ARC are out of anything in this size though.  Given the size of
the machine I'd be happy with 1000 - 1500 mm/min, as long as it was
accurate!

Regards
kevin
Andrew Mawson - 09 Apr 2009 16:29 GMT
On 8 Apr, 22:03, Kevin <kevin.newsgro...@nzsteele.com> wrote:
> Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control. Due to moving
> house I've only just got round to using it to run some real programs.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Regards
> Kevin

Kevin,
I have done a few Triacs now and the problem I find is the motors.
They are old style single stack type 34's and very dated. If you are
using Arc's small drives you will be limited to 30 volts max which
isn't really enough.
Easyist way is to reduce the acceleration and velocity, to be honest
we have struggled to get one running above 900 mm / min without
loosing stems on the small drives and original motors.

If you change motors to triple stack type 23's they fly, even on the
small drives but if you fit the larger dives and run them at 72 volt
you can easily get 2500mm min

John s.

When I converted a Triac some years back I used the original stepper
but driven by Gecko drivers, and didn't have any problems with missed
steps.

.. he he - 4 tonnes of Beaver Partsmaster arriving on Tuesday - a bit
beefier than the Triac <G>

AWEM
Bob Minchin - 09 Apr 2009 17:03 GMT
> On 8 Apr, 22:03, Kevin <kevin.newsgro...@nzsteele.com> wrote:
>> Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control. Due to moving
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> AWEM

Andrew! I think you need therapy!! LOL

Bob
Andrew Mawson - 09 Apr 2009 22:02 GMT
> > "John S" <john@stevenson-engineers.co.uk> wrote in message

news:950c759a-66f2-4ea5-8b9c-f76ce7390706@a23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> > On 8 Apr, 22:03, Kevin <kevin.newsgro...@nzsteele.com> wrote:
> >> Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control. Due to moving
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Bob

Bob, 'sorlright - the therapy is arriving on Tuesday - all 4 tonnes of
it!!!!

AWEM
Kevin - 10 Apr 2009 01:19 GMT
On Apr 10, 3:29 am, "Andrew Mawson"
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote:
> On 8 Apr, 22:03, Kevin <kevin.newsgro...@nzsteele.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, I've looked at the options and I think it would be best to change
the drives.  Which Gecko did you use, I was looking at the G201.  This
leaves me a lot more options for the future as well.  If I do change
the drives I won't be as limited to what I fit.  I was looking at what
stepper motors would work with the drives I have, but that's not
really the right way to do it.  This way I can put a bigger power
supply in (I was thinking about 60v) which should drive the current
motors easily -what PSU did you use?  I used the smaller drives
because they were a very good price -but I'll have to spend some money
and do it right.  I'm sure I'll find a use for the drives and PSU that
come out anyway.

Regards
Kevin
Andrew Mawson - 10 Apr 2009 08:18 GMT
On Apr 10, 3:29 am, "Andrew Mawson"
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote:
> "John S" <j...@stevenson-engineers.co.uk> wrote in message

news:950c759a-66f2-4ea5-8b9c-f76ce7390706@a23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Apr, 22:03, Kevin <kevin.newsgro...@nzsteele.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, I've looked at the options and I think it would be best to change
the drives.  Which Gecko did you use, I was looking at the G201.  This
leaves me a lot more options for the future as well.  If I do change
the drives I won't be as limited to what I fit.  I was looking at what
stepper motors would work with the drives I have, but that's not
really the right way to do it.  This way I can put a bigger power
supply in (I was thinking about 60v) which should drive the current
motors easily -what PSU did you use?  I used the smaller drives
because they were a very good price -but I'll have to spend some money
and do it right.  I'm sure I'll find a use for the drives and PSU that
come out anyway.

Regards
Kevin

Yes it was the 201's with a home brew psu at the top end of the Gecko
voltage spec

AWEM
John S - 10 Apr 2009 09:39 GMT
> On Apr 10, 3:29 am, "Andrew Mawson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> Regards
> Kevin

Kevin,
If you need to change drives have a look at the MD 882 from that OZ
link you posted.
They will rung rings round the Gecko drives as regards reliability.

John S.
Kevin - 10 Apr 2009 10:21 GMT
> > On Apr 10, 3:29 am, "Andrew Mawson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Funny you should say that, I'm waiting for a reply from the
manufacturer for prices on those and some switch mode PSU's.  But I
think I might have to go through a dealer (which is a pain as there
isn't one here).

Regards
Kevin
Mike - 12 Apr 2009 21:55 GMT
>If you need to change drives have a look at the MD 882 from that OZ
>link you posted.
>They will rung rings round the Gecko drives as regards reliability.

Gecko drives are unreliable???

Really?

--
Mark Rand - 08 Apr 2009 22:50 GMT
>Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control.  Due to moving
>house I've only just got round to using it to run some real programs.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Regards
>Kevin

Reduce the acceleration if you can??

Mark Rand
RTFM
Richard Edwards - 09 Apr 2009 04:44 GMT
>Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control.  Due to moving
>house I've only just got round to using it to run some real programs.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Regards
>Kevin

Have a look at the archives of the Mach3 group. Similar problems have
been sorted with pulse timing changes and/or changing the timing
between a direction change signal and step pulses.
Just a thought <G>

Richard
Kevin - 09 Apr 2009 07:23 GMT
On Apr 9, 3:44 pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:03:52 -0700 (PDT), Kevin
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Richard

Unfortunately I've been through all the settings, even going down to
realy low values on speed/acceleration, but I think it's the motor
problem John suggested.  Looks like some new steppers are called for.
Does anyone know how powerful the originals were? I'd like to at least
match that. Also I notice that ARC say the motors I wanted to fit,
which are rated at 2.5A, need their bigger driver to run them.  How do
I make sure the motors I buy will be OK on these drives if a 3A drive
won't run a 2.5A motor?

Regards
Kevin
John S - 09 Apr 2009 09:08 GMT
> On Apr 9, 3:44 pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Regards
> Kevin

It's more the voltage than amperage you need to look to, those triple
stacks, off the top of my head are 7.5 volt.
That means you have a working voltage of 30 volts ? into which you
divide 7.5 which comes out at 4.

Now to get a well designed and reasonably fast system you need to aim
at a figure of about 20 so 7.5 volts times 20 equals 150 volts.
Not obtainable with current drivers but this is why they recommend the
larger driver. Now the smaller motors are on 4.5 volts and dividing
that into 30 gets you nearly 7, given the smaller rotor size and
inertia these will probably accelerate up to twice as fast as the
larger motor.

If you are stuck on the smaller drivers I'd go for the 180Ncm model.

John S.
Kevin - 09 Apr 2009 09:53 GMT
> > On Apr 9, 3:44 pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

That makes sense, but they didn't have any in stock.  I've found
these  http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/motors/stepper/hp_bipolar_stepper_motors_large.htm
(the MOT-125) which look ideal, as they are even lower voltage and
still under 3A -and have about the same holding torque.  And, for me,
they are nearer to post.  Having taken one of the motors off and taken
it apart I should be able to use the existing front plates as they
have hole centres to match the NEMA23 centres.  Any idea how these
compare to the original motors, in terms of power.

Regards
Kevin
etpm@whidbey.com - 12 Apr 2009 23:34 GMT
>> > On Apr 9, 3:44=A0pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>Regards
>Kevin
Greetings kevin,
If you are going to buy new motors and drivers why not use servos with
the Gecko 320 drive? I am using these now and they are working great.
Eric
Kevin - 13 Apr 2009 04:20 GMT
On Apr 13, 10:34 am, e...@whidbey.com wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 01:53:50 -0700 (PDT), Kevin
>
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Just to recap.  The problem I'm experiencing is lost steps.  The
suspected cause is that the current stepper controller isn't quite
grunty enough to drive the motors properly (mostly due to only being
35 volts -just put a meter across it).  The existing stepper drivers
will handle 3A, but max out at 40V.  Possible solutions are:

1) Replace the stepper motors with ones that will run more happily at
35V, and less than 3A
2) Replace the PSU and stepper drives with 48V switch mode PSU and
stepper drive to handle the increased voltage but keep existing motors

I'm currently looking to the second option.  Although it's more
expensive (cost is a big factor) if the first option doesn't work I've
got nowhere to go, as I'm limited on what motors will run well at
these power levels.  If I go for option 2 and still have problems,
I've got enough power available to put bigger new steppers in.  Also
it gives me the opportunity to replace the steppers with newer motors
in the future as well.

So, does this sound reasonable -or have I missed something obvious?
Just had a thought, I'm off to reconfigure the drives to half step or
full step mode, to see if the problem is that the older drives don't
like microstepping.

Thanks for all the help, I'll get this sorted in the end.

Regards
Kevin
Kevin - 13 Apr 2009 05:19 GMT
> On Apr 13, 10:34 am, e...@whidbey.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bad move, with half step or full step mode I still seem to be missing
the same number of steps, but the error is just bigger

Regards
Kevin.
Richard Edwards - 13 Apr 2009 11:12 GMT
>that several small moves seem to give a problem, but larger moves
>don't seem to give the same problem.

Kevin
Granted that you may like bigger motors but the above seems to
indicate that the existing setup will drive the system.
I still feel you should look at step/dir timing. I am not well up on
Mach3 but know that some have sorted similar problems with "Sherline
Mode"? Multiple small move errors indicates loss of steps at start and
maybe end of move.

Sorry to be repetitive but thats how I see it.

Richard
Richard Edwards - 13 Apr 2009 11:24 GMT
The following is a post on the Mach group. Some tests as indicated may
show your problem.

*****************************
An LED array is handy to have, one sits on my desk since 2001 , and I
use it ALLOT! , BUT you wont find it usefull in your case. This is
because the pulse width is only 3us. The LED will show nothing unless
your running at high speed, then it will glow at a % of average
voltage. Single pulses cannot be seen, just a display of a varying
brightness showing output speed. ( Still quite usefull in
diagnostics.) Steve Stallings sells an excellent stepper test board
for such things , it even has a small stepper on it to play with in
motion, probably a little expensive for most for testing but
invaluable for people who diagnose various computers as to driver
function.

  There is an easier way to know though, the machine coordinate DRO.
Purposely, and mentioned many times in threads, that DRO was designed
not to reflect where mach3 thinks it is, there are many variables
internally for that, the DRO's programming is very simple, it counts
output pulses. The code that actually changes a step pulse increments
or decrements that counter. The DRO display is ( #ofsteps / steps/unit
).

 So you can just reset the motor tuning to tell it that 1 step is one
inch. Retune the speeds so it runs and watch the Machine coordinate
DRO. It will advance 1 for each step taken. and decrement for each
step in the opposite direction. If it counts 1, then you can be sure a
step pulse was put out, no question about it. if it decrements 1, then
a step was put out with a reversed DIR line, no question about it.
   
  Thinking about it, the DIR prechange time sounds like your trouble,
picture what happens, the system tries to reverse, it changes the DIR
line, waits 3us , then sets the step line, the driver hasnt yet seen
the DIR line change so it outputs a reverse step. Why only in one
direction? It may be case of the opto on the DIR line taking awhile (
longer than 3us) to turn on, but having a much faster turn-off time.
Kinda like those annoying flourescent bulbs replacing incandecent
ones, they take awhiel to get glowing very brightly, but when you
flick them off, their instantly off, somewhet the reverse of the
incandecent which is fast to glow, but fades out when switched off. Be
pretty rare, but if your runnign on the edge of that opto's timing, it
could in theory happen. Mach3 holds the DIR line on or off permanently
until direction changes, it isnt a pulsed output, so this phenomenon
can only happen at time of reversal, and is the only way a slow opto
on the DIR input of the driver will be seen.
**********************************
Richard
Kevin - 13 Apr 2009 12:20 GMT
On Apr 13, 10:24 pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
> The following is a post on the Mach group. Some tests as indicated may
> show your problem.
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> **********************************
> Richard

I had wondered the same thing, and changed the "dir" settings on the
motor tuning to 5 (default is 0) but this didn't seem ot have any
effect.  Can this value be higher, although it says step and dir
values should be between 0 and 5/

Regards
Kevin
Richard Edwards - 13 Apr 2009 15:30 GMT
>On Apr 13, 10:24 pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>Regards
>Kevin

No idea, as I said I am not a Mach3 guru <G>
Did you try the DRO change as above, and monitored the motor for
movement step by step. Other option is inverting the signals.

BTW you do have your belts "tight" don't you <G>

It all seems silly to me. If you believe that long movements are
accurate but multiple small movements are not, then it points to
acceleration, a resonant problem or even a slack coupling.

BTW you have never indicated your error magnitudes between a long and
multiple short movements.

Richard
Kevin - 13 Apr 2009 12:14 GMT
On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:19:57 -0700 (PDT), Kevin
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Richard

Hi Richard, I found the "Sherline Mode" -but it made things much
worse, with much bigger errors.  I'm not sure what drivers the
Sherline uses, but this mode sets the output pulse to 20
microceconds.  I think it is loosing steps at the start or end of a
move (or both).  But I haven't come up with any explanation other then
dropping steps due to not driving the motors at full power (losing
stepson acceleration).  But I haven't found any settings that it works
at, even going down to quite low speeds.

Regards
Kevin
etpm@whidbey.com - 14 Apr 2009 00:42 GMT
>On Apr 13, 10:12=A0pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>Regards
>Kevin
Greetings Kevin,
  If the motor loses steps at the beginning of motion then it may be
that the step rate is ramping up too fast. The motor cannot go from a
stop to full speed instantly. For that matter it cannot stop
instantly. So the step rate must ramp up and ramp down in order to
avoid losing  steps. There must be some kind of ramping adjustment in
Mach3. The reason I like using servos with the Gecko 320 drives is
because the drives accept step and direction pulses just like a
stepper driver. The big advantage is that the drive has feedback from
the servo via an encoder so that it doesn't lose steps. If the
position command is too different from the actual position the drive
shuts down. With a stepper system without feedback the drive doesn't
know or care about actual steps completed so your parts come out wrong
if steps are lost.
Cheers,
eric
Lester Caine - 13 Apr 2009 08:17 GMT
> Just to recap.  The problem I'm experiencing is lost steps.  The
> suspected cause is that the current stepper controller isn't quite
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 2) Replace the PSU and stepper drives with 48V switch mode PSU and
> stepper drive to handle the increased voltage but keep existing motors

I'm currently working to produce a driver that uses the Nat Semi chips,
so we can run 48V rather than the 36V limit of the Arc Euro drive. In
practice, we have been running the 180Ncm motors at 15mm/sec without a
problem, and 20mm/sec sees an occasional missed step. The sample 48V
driver gives reliable 20mm/sec operation and may well give a little
more, but we need to configure Mach3 for a higher clock rate as quarter
stepping is running out of steam at 25khz before we can run some more
tests ;) That and we need a set of three boards ....

Signature

Lester Caine - G8HFL
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Emimec - 13 Apr 2009 12:12 GMT
> Some time ago I converted my Triac to mach3 control.  Due to moving
> house I've only just got round to using it to run some real programs.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Regards
> Kevin

Why not join the Denford forum, they are very knowledgeable and helped me
with all sorts of problems with my Cyclone lathe.
http://www.denfordata.com/bb/index.php?sid=005ca4d87d28b03298e602bfefac9cc2
Bob
 
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