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Inverter VFD problem

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lemelman - 22 Apr 2009 08:07 GMT
I changed the 1.5KW motor and fitted a Mitsubishi E500 VFD to my lathe.
The actual VFD is an FR-E520S-1.5K-EC.
Everything was fine for a month or so, but, "out-of-the-blue" I started
getting intermittent OV3 errors, with an occasional OV2 thrown in for
good measure. Also, from time to time, the fan remained on even when the
motor was switched off; previously the fan operated only when the motor
was running.
I was advised that the OV3 errors would be fixed by the addition of a
braking resistor, so I fitted one and yes, the OV3/OV2 errors stopped.
Great! But a few days later the fan has again started running with the
motor off. It often doesn't run continuously; it runs, pauses, and
starts again (sort of "stuttering") and does this for quite a while. No
part of the VFD seems at all hot; in fact it doesn't even get warm.
Any ideas please?

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Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

Rob Wilson - 22 Apr 2009 11:47 GMT
I suppose it's just thermal management.  You can get rid of the trips by
turning down the deleceration parameter so it slows down more slowly.
Rapid decel pushes up the DC link volts to a level that is too high and
so the drives trips on OV.DC.

Does the fan go off?  Might be a dodgy thermal sensor on the heatsink.

Rob.

> I changed the 1.5KW motor and fitted a Mitsubishi E500 VFD to my lathe.
> The actual VFD is an FR-E520S-1.5K-EC.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> part of the VFD seems at all hot; in fact it doesn't even get warm.
> Any ideas please?
lemelman - 22 Apr 2009 12:14 GMT
Thanks Rob,
The fan does go off, eventually, but it can take a long time. It doesn't
seem to have any untoward effects other than make an unwanted noise, but
it surely indicates a fault somewhere.
Do you have any further details on where to find the sensor 'cos I don't
have any documentation?

Signature

Regards, Gary
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

> I suppose it's just thermal management.  You can get rid of the trips by
> turning down the deleceration parameter so it slows down more slowly.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Rob.
Rob Wilson - 22 Apr 2009 17:12 GMT
> Thanks Rob,
> The fan does go off, eventually, but it can take a long time. It doesn't
> seem to have any untoward effects other than make an unwanted noise, but
> it surely indicates a fault somewhere.
> Do you have any further details on where to find the sensor 'cos I don't
> have any documentation?

Hiya,
Sorry not, I don't nkow Siemens stuff, I used to design stuff for
Control Techniques.

Be careful when you're messing with said thermocouple/thermistor because
it can be tied to the hot side, and if you get it wrong at worst you'll
blow it up and at worst you end up killing yourself.

Power electronics stuff is done differently to a lot of stuff, be warned.

Rob.
Bob Minchin - 22 Apr 2009 23:08 GMT
>> Thanks Rob,
>> The fan does go off, eventually, but it can take a long time. It
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Rob.
Who said anything about Siemens inverters?
Rob Wilson - 22 Apr 2009 23:11 GMT
>>> Thanks Rob,
>>> The fan does go off, eventually, but it can take a long time. It
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>> Rob.
> Who said anything about Siemens inverters?
Oh yeah it was a Mitsubishi....same applies.

Rob.
houstonceng - 23 Apr 2009 10:50 GMT
On Apr 22, 11:11 pm, Rob Wilson <robwil...@remove.brushhead.co.uk>
wrote:
> >>> Thanks Rob,
> >>> The fan does go off, eventually, but it can take a long time. It
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

The cooling fan operation is set by Parameter #244.  When that's set
to 0, the fan should run all the time that Mains power is connected.
If it's set to 1,  the fan should only run when either:-
1. The motor is running (ie Inverter Run Command is invoked) OR
2. If the invereter is over temperature when the motor is stopped.

My 1.5kW Mitsubishi FR-E500-1.5K-EC Inverter, on a 6.5" centre lathe
(#244 = 1), seems only to run the fan when the motor is on, so it's
never been hot enough to invoke senario 2.  Rob could be correct about
your Thermal Sensor OR your unit could be performing as per design.
Just because it doesn't feel hot doesn't mean to say that the heat-
sink isn't at a temperature where the unit is set to operate the fan.

Of course, if #244 is set to 0, then you definitely have a problem.

Regards
Andy
Rob Wilson - 24 Apr 2009 12:25 GMT
> On Apr 22, 11:11 pm, Rob Wilson <robwil...@remove.brushhead.co.uk>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Regards
> Andy
That's good advice.  The heatsink can somewhat mislead.  In my
experience extruded alumninium heatsinks have a far better thermal
conductivity than pressure cast alloy ones.  If it's a cast heatsink
then it might be substantially hotter under the IGBT/Rectifier pack.
Most thermal models look at trends, or rather the rate of change of the
temperature, such that the management software can say, 'hold on guys,
they're pulling a a lot of current, turn the fans on'.

To be honest some thermal models are cleverer than others.  On the drive
I worked on, the thermal sensor was in the IGBT pack, and there was non
in the rectifier pack.  This was a 20hp/15kW drive and the semiconductor
tech in those days was'nt man enough to get a 20hp solution in to a
single pack.

What I had to do was to look at the magetising current in the inverter,
because that would still create losses in the IGBT stack, but bugger all
in the rectifier.  You get high mag current when you're running the
motor no load.  Once you start asking the motor to begin supplying
Torque, obviously the torque producing current part begins to climb
which will then start to put up losses in the rectifier and so on.  We
all sorts of frig factors in there but it did work.  We had to do it
this way because one day I decided to abuse the driver by running at
12kHz and full load current...it did'nt take long for it to blow up
because the management software had'nt been designed then.

Anyway I digress....sorry.  Thought you might be interested.

Rob.
duttondock@onetel.com - 24 Apr 2009 13:29 GMT
Talking of Mitsubishi inverters, are they likely to have an 'auto
reset on power off' option?
I've got a little one (Frequol, no idea of the model number) running a
lathe coolant pump. It tends to trip if turned off & on again too
quickly, which can happen inadvertently with my setup. It's buried at
the back of the lathe, totally inaccessible at present so I have no
coolant, it would be very handy to be able to set it for auto reset
when I do get access.
I've never been aware of this as an option before, but the Siemens
I've put on my milling machine has it as default as well as a
connection for an external reset button.

TimL
Bob Minchin - 24 Apr 2009 15:46 GMT
> Talking of Mitsubishi inverters, are they likely to have an 'auto
> reset on power off' option?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> TimL
Tim,

I'm pretty certain you can do this. I've put a frequol manual up on my
FTP site for you
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchin/510_520_540%20Instructions.pdf

Good luck

Bob
duttondock@onetel.com - 24 Apr 2009 17:35 GMT
> Tim,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Bob

Bob, many thanks for that, I'll study it later.

Cheers
Tim
lemelman - 25 Apr 2009 13:14 GMT
> ...snip...
> The cooling fan operation is set by Parameter #244.  When that's set
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 2. If the invereter is over temperature when the motor is stopped.
> ...snip...

As I mentioned in my first post, when initially installed the fan
operated only when the motor was running. I haven't changed any
parameters since then.
Now, for the first few minutes or so after switching on, the fan runs
only when the motor runs, but after using the lathe lightly it runs for
quite a while (4 or minutes at least) when the motor is off. Towards the
end of the 4/5 minutes, the fan switches off and on intermittently,
sometimes staying off for several seconds before starting again. 10 of
15 minutes later, as long as I don't start the motor, the fan stops.
As also mentioned, I can detect no rise in temperature anywhere on the case.

Signature

Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

 
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